Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

[Murm]

Love the RBY post, unfortunately though I disagree with it a bit.

First off, this is my current VR. the big thing with Rhydon is just its inconsistent top and high tier matchups. It can do alright into Lax, but if you run into Blizzard or Reflect + EQ Snorlax, its over. You beat Jolteon and you beat Zapdos, and I guess Ice Beam Slowbro, but other than that you really struggle. For the most part the matchups it gets can be replicated by other Pokemon, like Blizzard Snorlax and Chansey. With how easy Pokemon like Blizzard Lax, Alakazam, and Chansey is to slap on teams, its hard to make teams 3-0d by Rhydon nowadays. I think there is a big dropoff after Exeggutor, and Rhydon is definitely in that group.

Might make some more posts about RBY (and maybe GSC or LGPE too who knows) here, I'm sure people are confused about my Starmie rank especially lol

Edit: Also this is the best Rhydon to run IMO. Ultimately most mirror matchups come down to luck.

Standard (Rhydon)
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Bubble Beam / Body Slam
- Rest

 

[Frailty]

i think starmie should be way higher it has 3 real counters and even then it can luck those

the mons u have in a1 are all worse, zapdos gets murmogged by jolteon, apart for a couple mus which are even for zap anyway. zap is 5:3:4 on the mu chart with 5 winning mus, 3 even mus and 4 losing mus.

tauros has a total one real reliable mu being shitass gengar and a ratio of 4:3:5. This is composed of 3 mus with 60-70% winrate, get ready to learn chinese buddy.

chansey is 5:1:6 and murmogged by articuno, the only differences in its mu spread being zapdos and gengar at the expense of worse physical mus but cuno has some odds vs zam and beats egg and egg (chansey)

jolteon is cool i fw him

starmie is 7:1:4 with one of the 4 being slowbro with a 40/60 mu

 

[Murm]

Alright I'm going to explain my RBY top and high tiers a bit more

My current VR (slightly updated)

I don't feel the need to explain this one further ngl

In a metagame filled with special attackers, being able to matchup well into pretty much all of them is just amazing. Alakazam can also break through a lot of the physical attackers with the combination of its high Speed and Special Attack, high crit rate, and Psychic's Special drop chance. Snorlax is pretty much the only mon that reliably wins, though of course some other mons like Tauros and Twave Zapdos do alright.

While Chansey can lose to Snorlax, Lax has to go very far out of its way to do so. While this is insanely good, I think the biggest reason I have Chansey this high is just having the option of Thunderbolt. Obviously you trade the Tauros matchup for this, but being able to handle Starmie and Articuno is just so good. Snorlax is very similarly able to run Tbolt really easily.

I really like Thunder Wave on this guy. It gives Zapdos a semi-reliable Alakazam and Tauros matchup which is just so good. STAB Thunderbolts also just hit insanely hard, and Drill Peck is super useful for reliability into high Special targets like Alakazam and Exeggutor.

While it does trade reliability into some things, the ability to handle Zapdos unlike Alakazam is just super good. Toxic giving it a solid Chansey matchup is also nice, and exploring its physical options with Tail Whip, Double Kick, and Hyper Beam gives it a surprising amount of good options into Pokemon like Alakazam and Rest Chansey.

Tbf I did lower this down to A2, but I still think Leer is great on this guy. Giving it a much better Snorlax matchup is amazing, forcing Lax into Reflect is great, similarly it forces Chansey into Twave, and it still has some solid matchups elsewhere. It definitely struggles with reliability though, so I think it was fair to move it down a bit.

And the main reason I wanted to make this post:

I've had this take for a while, and the biggest reason is the rise of Thunderbolt on Snorlax and Chansey. Starmie went from having a great matchup into those two to having an awful matchup. It also just naturally matches up really poorly into the other top tiers in my eyes, and while it does okay into Tauros, Tauros can definitely break through with some luck, which isn't really uncommon. I just find that it doesn't fit on many teams, I'd rather just stick with something much more reliable that doesn't fold to Electric-type moves.

 

[Kowasabii]

I know the 1v1 tier has been through a lot the past few months. I just got knocked out of the ORAS open, I have no idea if this was my last 1v1 ORAS tournament or not, we will have to see, as I don't play as much as I used to.

I wanted to bring to light an ORAS team I really enjoy playing with that has allowed me to have a lot of the success I've had in the tier. This was posted on the forums as a sample team clear back in 2018 and I think the team is still very viable and could be sample worthy considering I went 6-3 during this most recent tourney when using the squad.



This team I like to use when I am in need of an important win during a best of 5 series. Using this squad almost every round of tournament play, I was able to get top 8 in 3 separate ORAS cups (2018, 2022, 2024).

The team was originally made by the user Uselesscrab. They made a awesome RMT about the team, I would really recommend check this out if you have any interest in ORAS 1v1! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/last-minute-peaked-3.3586194/#post-7062805

Hope the tier continues to thrive, 1v1 is how I first got into online pokemon play and I know that many people feel similar.

 

[Mishlef]

SS 1v1 Set Compendium 4.4 is here!
https://pokepast.es/84dec017b2de3646

Changelog

Additions

• Skill Swap Cresselia
• Icy Wind Cresselia
• Pixie Plate Primarina
• Helmet Spectrier
• Custap Zapdos
• Balloon Registeel
• Band Scizor
• Scarf Tsareena

Removals

• WP Spectrier
• Salamence
• Celebi
• Moltres
• Slowbro-Galar
• Talonflame
• Torkoal
• Weavile

Tweaks

• Mental Herb Celesteela EVs
• ID Stall Corviknight EVs

Thank you for everyone who helped, we will continue to work on this as there is more to do

 

[torterraxx]

I want to give my personal thoughts on ORAS since I'm out of WC and to look at some differences between now and pre-zard ban meta. I will start out by saying I am enjoying the current metagame more than the pre zard ban meta, teambuilding does feel looser, but it's still pretty top heavy. Below are my thoughts on various top tiers and some other random pokemon in the tier. Here are the cumulative usage stats from wc (up until finals) for easy reference: https://pastebin.com/58H3T4JV and the PL usage stats: https://pastebin.com/GQANLc0d.

Notable Differences

Lopunny has really started to shine post zard-ban as zard was a very consistent answer to it, outside of fringe low sweep sets. Lopunny also does very well into Gardevoir and even Mew if you're using Encore, not to mention Scrappy letting it get past Gengar, who has also seen a notable increase in usage. I think Lopunny is extremely healthy for the metagame rn and should maybe see VR movement.

Mawile has also seen an increase in usage, now surpassing Metagross as the most used Steel. I personally find it much easier to build with Mawile as it can beat Genesect, Darkrai, and Chansey while still maintaining most of its shared matchups with Metagross. You can run into 4 mss with this guy, that's the main downside I have found. I think Meta and Maw are pretty close right now in viability as steels.

Gengar has also seen a massive increase in usage post-zard ban. Gengar is very easy to build with rn and has a lot of options including counter,wisp/disable/taunt and more offensive sets. There are not a lot of pokemon Gengar doesn't have odds into between its various sets and it feels like a very anti-meta mon, having favorable matchups into all 4 pokemon above it in the usage stats as well as shutting down Mew.

All of these pokemon saw notable drops in usage in WC. Gren, Darkrai, and Malt were all Charizard checks/counters so they have less of a niche now over their competition. I am a fan of Genesect in the current meta, but it faces stiff competition from Meta/Maw/Heatran as a steel so the usage makes somewhat sense. Mew being lower in usage definently doesn't help Gene's case either.

Mew/Garde thoughts

These seem to be the two most controversial pokemon right now, so wanted to give my thoughts. My thoughts on both are largely the same as post PL, I don't think the Zard ban impacted either pokemon too much.

Gardevoir is still the best pokemon in the tier, but I feel there are enough quality answers to it in the tier, with us having so many dominant steels and fire types, as well as less consistent answers in Gengar/Lopunny/Chansey/Gren/etc. Metagross/Mawile/Heatran/Victini/Genesect/Gengar are all very solid pokemon that would be good with or without Gardevoir, so I never feel like I'm compensating when I use one, unlike some of the Charizard answers I ended up using. These pokemon do not have to go out of their way to beat Gardevoir in the same way many pokemon did for Charizard in my opinion, and we have enough checks/counters to where I don't feel restricted when building. I would not mind a suspect of Gardevoir if others feel it's needed, but I just don't see it as too problematic right now.

I don't have a strong opinion on Mew rn, I thought it would pop off after the zard ban but it has seen even less usage and people are still using the stall sets mostly. Gardevoir and Gengar both shut this guy down while some other pokemon like Lopunny have odds into it, none of which helps Mew's case right now. I think it's definently being under utilized right now and I'm not sure what the ceiling is for it. I have tried to use Band/Scarf sets, but outside of what you're luring, there's not a lot these sets beat and I found it unusable. In the current state of the meta, I'd be against tiering action on Mew.

Random Pokemon I'm enjoying

I found this guy while trying to beat a hitlist. The main idea with Chandelure is it's able to beat garde/victini/mew/chansey/volcarona in one set while still beating many of the steels you expect your fire to beat, except Mawile unfortunately. Volcarona or Gengar are usually better, but neither Pokémon is consistent into that whole list so Chandy has a bit of a niche. This is the set I like: https://pokepast.es/95e3f1efc2aeb25b . It is bulked for Mega Medicham zen headbutt and no attack sucker punch from Mawile, with speed for max speed pre-mega Metagross. CM Garde can definently beat it, I have found a good partner for it is Metagross as Metagross can beat both Maw and Garde as well as the usual metagross matchups.

I really enjoy using both Entei/Volcanion to beat Victini, who is more annoying with Zard gone. They're also very consistent into steels and have odds into Gardevoir (really just Entei for this point). Helmet Entei is still really strong and is my favorite set for it's Lopunny and Victini reliability. Volcarona is a pretty unique fire, being able to beat Manaphy,Gengar,Mew, and Gardevoir (with the right set). I have been using this Life Orb set: https://pokepast.es/cd5b0e4b9e43c6c0.

These are all kinda shitters, that's why I paired them together. But they all have their own niche and I encourage others to look into them. Keldeo is very consistent into fire types and can beat Lopunny with scarf, which is it's best set. From my experience, it has enough power to get past what it needs and being consistent into Lop/Volcarona/Greninja/Darkrai (with scarf) sets it apart from Manaphy. Ferrothorn is usually a worse gene but beating Mana and chansey is cool, as well as Metagross most times. Heracross can beat Mew with SD + Guts and is able to bulk what it needs, such as specs gren and lopunny, as well as scarf hoopa (you can outspeed the others in base form). Bulk Up gives it fighting odds against Metagross too. Lopunny is usually better but Hera beating Lopunny itself is pretty big for it.

I am curious to hear others' thoughts on Gardevoir/Mew and the overall meta now that Zard is gone.

 

[Mishlef]

I do realize WC still technically has finals going on but we'll be releasing the post WC VIII Survey at this time and just have an extended deadline. Once again we encourage as many people to submit and let us hear your thoughts!

https://forms.gle/4YDTpovXpdR98SPU8

The form will close no sooner than 12/29 11:59PM GMT-4

 

[neomon]

BW Survey
let us hear your thoughts on the current BW 1v1 Metagame and any other general concerns you have with the tier. The survey will close on Sunday january 12th at 8pm GMT+1
Thanks in advance for anyone that takes the time and fills it out.

 

[RADU]

thank you @neomon I'll take it from here.

With WC over ORAS 1v1 will also be holding a survey to gauge people's thoughts on the meta: https://forms.gle/NLAwnukbo81Gd2QX8
ORAS 1v1 Survey
the survey will stay up for about a week or so

 

[Mishlef]

1. Playerbase

Thank you to the 23 responses to the survey, this is a decrease from the PL survey by 8 responses. Notably there is a big decrease in the number of responses from WC players but this is expected with only 1 SS slot compared to the 2 in PL as well as the fewer subs that come from a pools style. This is most reflected with people who did not play WC but played competitively in the past few months having a bigger part of the people who filled out the survey. To remain consistent we will continue to classify "competitive" players as solely the blue and red sections as we did in the past surveys but the smaller sample size is worth being aware of.

2. Enjoyability
We decided to utilize the same 1-7 system we used from the last PL Survey so direct comparisons are more apt.

The average enjoyability of the entire survey came out to 5.74/7 with a median of 6, which means that most people lie between slightly enjoying the tier and regularly enjoying the tier with a slight lean away from only slightly enjoying. Compared to the post PL survey which had an average enjoyability of 5.45/7 which is a slight improvement. The average enjoyability for the competitive players was a 6.43/7 with a median of 6, which means that competitive players generally find the tier significantly more enjoyable although do note the smaller sample size of the competitive playerbase as compared to past surveys. This will be the last time the sample size will be mentioned. Similarly this is an increase from PL where the average was 5.71/7. There is room to improve the tier but the slow but steady increase is a good sign.

3. Competitiveness

The average for the entire survey for competitiveness of the tier was 5.83/7 with a median of 6, which means most people find the tier competitive and balanced. Comparing this to PL where the average was 5.97/7 this seems to be a slight deterioration in the view of the tier's balance but not so much that we are overly worried. The average competitiveness of the tier for competitive players was a 6.00/7 with a median of 6 which means both competitive and casual players tend to agree on how balanced SS as a tier is. We are always looking to improve the competitiveness and balance of the tier but we are very happy with where the tier is considering the response to this question and some of the other questions coming up.

4. Regidrago

There is about 30% of respondents who are in favor of action of some kind with 5 responses to suspect, 1 to quickban, and taking the write-in statement of "support a suspect" and interpreting the green response as being neutral but not in favor of a suspect. At this time we will not be doing a suspect and will likely continue to keep our eyes on Regidrago. This seems to be the solely potentially controversial part of SS but with a decrease in the past 2 surveys with the PL survey having 40% in favor of action so a decrease of around 10% is not necessarily insignificant. Competitive players has similar opinions on Regidrago with 28.5% in favor of action of some kind. We will consider keeping Regidrago as a default question on the survey, but regardless of the decision always feel free to indicate support for action in the miscellaneous ban/unbans section of the survey.

5. Sleep

This is a very interesting result, at this point we will not be suspecting Sleep as there is a plurality in favor of no action. However, there are similar numbers of people in favor of unbans of sleep as well as banning more sleep. Competitive players are majority in favor of no action with 2 suspect and 1 unban. We considered if it would be possible to do a suspect where eligible voters can vote to ban, unban, or do nothing, but at this moment we find it likely any individual result would have 60+%. We intend to keep this question as a default question on the survey.

6. Miscellaneous bans/unbans
There was no overwhelming responses with the highest number of identical responses being only 2. Those were for Sableye unban, Genesect unban, and Custap ban. At this point we do not plan on taking any action on any of these but we encourage people to continue filling this section out so we can know if there is any broad desire by the community at large that the council is not aware of.

7. Resources
Responses were generally positive but we will continue to improve on it. There was some mention of a lack of a VR update which is in the process of being updated with post WC votes so hopefully that will be released shortly. We do encourage however if you feel strongly about what you consider a discrepancy on the VR ranking we encourage you to make a post in this thread advocating why it should be higher or lower.

In other news, we will be adding a matchmaking role to the 1v1 server for old gens which will allow for friendly battles for older generations which do not have the luxury of a ladder. Be sure to join the 1v1 server to play more SS 1v1 with other enthusiasts!

8. Closing Thoughts
We are very happy with the direction the tier is going and the survey seems to show that the community mirrors that sentiment. We will be doing a survey after every major tour (PL, OGPL, and WC). We will continue to be working on improving resources and ensuring resources are up to date. Any questions or additional comments are appreciated please feel free to reach out to myself or the rest of SS council.

Firstly we are happy to welcome zo to SS Council. Additionally, I will also be taking a break from SS leadership and Smogon at large for a couple months. During that time glitched will act as SS Leader in case anything needs to be done during this time. She has been the most active and most dedicated to resources so it seems an obvious fit. She will also be who you can expect the next VR update from. Once again thank you for all the responses!

 

[SuperMemeBroz]

1. Playerbase

Thank you to the 23 responses to the survey, this is a decrease from the PL survey by 8 responses. Notably there is a big decrease in the number of responses from WC players but this is expected with only 1 SS slot compared to the 2 in PL as well as the fewer subs that come from a pools style. This is most reflected with people who did not play WC but played competitively in the past few months having a bigger part of the people who filled out the survey. To remain consistent we will continue to classify "competitive" players as solely the blue and red sections as we did in the past surveys but the smaller sample size is worth being aware of.View attachment 702789

2. Enjoyability
We decided to utilize the same 1-7 system we used from the last PL Survey so direct comparisons are more apt.
View attachment 702790The average enjoyability of the entire survey came out to 5.74/7 with a median of 6, which means that most people lie between slightly enjoying the tier and regularly enjoying the tier with a slight lean away from only slightly enjoying. Compared to the post PL survey which had an average enjoyability of 5.45/7 which is a slight improvement. The average enjoyability for the competitive players was a 6.43/7 with a median of 6, which means that competitive players generally find the tier significantly more enjoyable although do note the smaller sample size of the competitive playerbase as compared to past surveys. This will be the last time the sample size will be mentioned. Similarly this is an increase from PL where the average was 5.71/7. There is room to improve the tier but the slow but steady increase is a good sign.

3. Competitiveness
View attachment 702791
The average for the entire survey for competitiveness of the tier was 5.83/7 with a median of 6, which means most people find the tier competitive and balanced. Comparing this to PL where the average was 5.97/7 this seems to be a slight deterioration in the view of the tier's balance but not so much that we are overly worried. The average competitiveness of the tier for competitive players was a 6.00/7 with a median of 6 which means both competitive and casual players tend to agree on how balanced SS as a tier is. We are always looking to improve the competitiveness and balance of the tier but we are very happy with where the tier is considering the response to this question and some of the other questions coming up.

4. Regidrago
View attachment 702798
There is about 30% of respondents who are in favor of action of some kind with 5 responses to suspect, 1 to quickban, and taking the write-in statement of "support a suspect" and interpreting the green response as being neutral but not in favor of a suspect. At this time we will not be doing a suspect and will likely continue to keep our eyes on Regidrago. This seems to be the solely potentially controversial part of SS but with a decrease in the past 2 surveys with the PL survey having 40% in favor of action so a decrease of around 10% is not necessarily insignificant. Competitive players has similar opinions on Regidrago with 28.5% in favor of action of some kind. We will consider keeping Regidrago as a default question on the survey, but regardless of the decision always feel free to indicate support for action in the miscellaneous ban/unbans section of the survey.

5. Sleep
View attachment 702801
This is a very interesting result, at this point we will not be suspecting Sleep as there is a plurality in favor of no action. However, there are similar numbers of people in favor of unbans of sleep as well as banning more sleep. Competitive players are majority in favor of no action with 2 suspect and 1 unban. We considered if it would be possible to do a suspect where eligible voters can vote to ban, unban, or do nothing, but at this moment we find it likely any individual result would have 60+%. We intend to keep this question as a default question on the survey.

6. Miscellaneous bans/unbans
There was no overwhelming responses with the highest number of identical responses being only 2. Those were for Sableye unban, Genesect unban, and Custap ban. At this point we do not plan on taking any action on any of these but we encourage people to continue filling this section out so we can know if there is any broad desire by the community at large that the council is not aware of.

7. Resources
Responses were generally positive but we will continue to improve on it. There was some mention of a lack of a VR update which is in the process of being updated with post WC votes so hopefully that will be released shortly. We do encourage however if you feel strongly about what you consider a discrepancy on the VR ranking we encourage you to make a post in this thread advocating why it should be higher or lower.

In other news, we will be adding a matchmaking role to the 1v1 server for old gens which will allow for friendly battles for older generations which do not have the luxury of a ladder. Be sure to join the 1v1 server to play more SS 1v1 with other enthusiasts!

8. Closing Thoughts
We are very happy with the direction the tier is going and the survey seems to show that the community mirrors that sentiment. We will be doing a survey after every major tour (PL, OGPL, and WC). We will continue to be working on improving resources and ensuring resources are up to date. Any questions or additional comments are appreciated please feel free to reach out to myself or the rest of SS council.

Firstly we are happy to welcome zo to SS Council. Additionally, I will also be taking a break from SS leadership and Smogon at large for a couple months. During that time glitched will act as SS Leader in case anything needs to be done during this time. She has been the most active and most dedicated to resources so it seems an obvious fit. She will also be who you can expect the next VR update from. Once again thank you for all the responses!

please free dnite and only ban multiscale

 

[RADU]

good morning, firstly I announce that SEROO and Mubs are joining ORAS Council, which I am very glad for, as we've been wanting to expand as soon as possible and both are very well versed in oras.

Now, onto survey results

Enjoyability and Balance

Average: 6,77
Qualified: 5,75

Average: 5,44
Qualified: 4

It's easy to see that the playerbase, especially those qualified, does not find ORAS particularly competitive or enjoyable. The metagame is still volatile so we'll try and be as proactive as possible when considering our options.

Contentious Pokemon

Pokémon​	General	Qualified	Action
Gardevoir-Mega	3.2​	2.8​	4​
Victini	2.6​	2.8​	1​
Mew	4​	3.8​	6​
Manaphy	1.9​	2.3​	0​
Unbanning Blaziken-Mega	3.6​	4.8​	4​

Gardevoir has fallen a bit since the last survey and it is not currently the behemoth it used to be, mostly due to zardx's ban making space for more steel types and other fire types that garde just cannot touch, alongside other mons like gengar. We see that the new problematic threat is Mew with a very shared sentiment that action on it is warranted, the Council will discuss and vote on Mew soontm.

Other notes

There weren't mentions of many other mons, the only thing that was mentioned was Soul Dew, but with a couple of calcs we realized that it would be a tad too silly. It was mentioned not to make surveys 1-10 anymore due to the lack of neutral option, so we'll likely hold the surveys as 0-10 from now on.


now onto something a bit more important...

Mega Blaziken is now unbanned!
​

Discussion about this silly guy has been ongoing ever since regular Blaziken was unbanned, and survey results have showed that he is not conceived as very problematic or even impactful in ORAS 1v1. The regular form of Blaziken saw nearly no play at all throughout all of our big tournaments, and the Mega version, which is even weaker than Life Orb Blaziken, is not a considerable enough improvement on the base form to make him broken, if even relevant. Thus the Council held a vote and Mega Blaziken was quick unbanned by unanimous vote. I will implement this shortly.

As mentioned we don't expect blaziken to have a sufficient impact on the metagame to warrant a waiting period, so we will look into Mew shortly. It's all!

 

[DEG]

good morning, firstly I announce that SEROO and Mubs are joining ORAS Council, which I am very glad for, as we've been wanting to expand as soon as possible and both are very well versed in oras.

Now, onto survey results

Enjoyability and Balance

View attachment 703244
Average: 6,77
Qualified: 5,75

View attachment 703245
Average: 5,44
Qualified: 4

It's easy to see that the playerbase, especially those qualified, does not find ORAS particularly competitive or enjoyable. The metagame is still volatile so we'll try and be as proactive as possible when considering our options.

Contentious Pokemon

Pokémon​	General	Qualified	Action
Gardevoir-Mega	3.2​	2.8​	4​
Victini	2.6​	2.8​	1​
Mew	4​	3.8​	6​
Manaphy	1.9​	2.3​	0​
Unbanning Blaziken-Mega	3.6​	4.8​	4​

Gardevoir has fallen a bit since the last survey and it is not currently the behemoth it used to be, mostly due to zardx's ban making space for more steel types and other fire types that garde just cannot touch, alongside other mons like gengar. We see that the new problematic threat is Mew with a very shared sentiment that action on it is warranted, the Council will discuss and vote on Mew soontm.

Other notes

There weren't mentions of many other mons, the only thing that was mentioned was Soul Dew, but with a couple of calcs we realized that it would be a tad too silly. It was mentioned not to make surveys 1-10 anymore due to the lack of neutral option, so we'll likely hold the surveys as 0-10 from now on.


now onto something a bit more important...

Mega Blaziken is now unbanned!
​

Discussion about this silly guy has been ongoing ever since regular Blaziken was unbanned, and survey results have showed that he is not conceived as very problematic or even impactful in ORAS 1v1. The regular form of Blaziken saw nearly no play at all throughout all of our big tournaments, and the Mega version, which is even weaker than Life Orb Blaziken, is not a considerable enough improvement on the base form to make him broken, if even relevant. Thus the Council held a vote and Mega Blaziken was quick unbanned by unanimous vote. I will implement this shortly.

As mentioned we don't expect blaziken to have a sufficient impact on the metagame to warrant a waiting period, so we will look into Mew shortly. It's all!

Why is the ORAS council not surveying/discussion Charizardite Y, since it was only banned to avoid banning Charizardite X. Useless ban after Charizardite X ban.

 

[RADU]

Why is the ORAS council not surveying/discussion Charizardite Y, since it was only banned to avoid banning Charizardite X. Useless ban after Charizardite X ban.

i'll bring it up and look into it, please put this in the survey next time tho

 

[glitched]

Hello this is your temporary SS 1v1 leader stepping in and doing leader stuff

---

VR Shifts - drops

	Metagross	S- > A+
	Zeraora	A+ > A
	Naganadel	B+ > B
	Magnezone	B > B-
	Ninetales	B > B-
	Glastrier	C+ > C
	Salazzle	C > C-
	Buzzwole	D > UR
	Golduck	D > UR
	Golisopod	D > UR
	Keldeo	D > UR
	Roserade	D > UR
	Scizor	D > UR
	Silvally	D > UR
	Tsareena	D > UR

VR Shifts - raises

	Aromatisse	A- > A
	Regieleki	B- > B
	Porygon2	C+ > B-
	Ninetales-Alola	C > C+
	Pyukumuku	C > C+
	Latias	UR > D

Setcomp update:
https://pokepast.es/a5ca47c7b4a833d0 4.5!!!!

v4.5 changelog:
-removed WP Rillaboom
-added WP Latias
-edited Custap Primarina EVs
-edited Specs Primarina Evs
-edited Pixie Plate Primarina EVs
-added Taunt LO Urshifu
-added Mental Herb Primarina
-edited WP Zeraora EVs
-removed Specs Celesteela
-switched around LO Zeraora main EVs and altspread EVs
-edited new AV Metagross EVs, with old EVs transferred to altspread.

changes are yet to be implemented on Set Compendium EV Explainations Doc. This will be done tomorrow. (status: done)

 

[neomon]

Hello BW 1v1 Survey Results

1. Playerbase

this time around we had 11 voters (6 less than last time). In the general playerbase the metagame enjoyment has gone down from about 7.6 to 7.1. Quite a significant change. Metagame balance scored 6.3 on average as opposed to 7 in the last survey

The median on both questions was 8 as seen above.

2. controversial mons

this time around 3 mons were mentioned by name and the rest was left as an open question. Snorlax, Genesect and Tornadus found its way into the survey. The first two being general menaces in the metagame for a long time, while tornadus emerged recently as the newest prankster sub toxic mon.

	'qualified' voters	all voters
Snorlax	3,42	3,18
Genesect	3,57	3,45
Tornadus	1,86	1,82

The opinion on Genesect and Snorlax has slightly increased while Tornadus looks to not be deemed action worthy at all yet by the playerbase.
In response to these survey results, we the BW Council urge everyone that has an opinion on one of these mons to voice them in this thread to give us a more in depth idea about the view of the community on this matter. Feel free to post now or wait for the meta developments through OGPL. There will be another survey after that tour too.

3. other
Kyurem White unbanning was mentioned multiple times in the survey response.
Haxorus was also mentioned once as a potentially unhealthy mon. It will be included in the next survey to make sure everyone can give their opinion on it.

We are taking sample submissions. You can either send them to me or any other council member on discord or via smogon dm. We'll take a look.
A VR Update will come shortly.

Thanks for reading and happy posting.

 

[RADU]

gm, ORAS council discussed ZardY, and we have decided not to go forward with metagame action on it at this time as the meta is still unstable, but we will be open to considering it in the future and include it in future surveys. We, instead, prioritized discussion on Mew, so we held a vote on whether we wanted to suspect it. The result was no suspect, as wc didn't bring as much metagame development as we had hoped for, and we would like to see how ORAS develops throughout ogpl.

ok now oras vr shifts

Mawile-Mega A+ -> S-
Heatran A -> A+
Lopunny-Mega A -> A+
Porygon-Z A- -> A
Garchomp A- -> B+
Genesect A- -> A
Gengar-Mega A- -> A
Venusaur-Mega A- -> B+
Chansey B+ -> A-
Diancie-Mega B+ -> B
Haxorus B+ -> B
Landorus-Therian A- -> B+
Rhyperior B+ -> B
Tyranitar-Mega B+ -> B
Volcarona B+ -> A-
Whimsicott B+ -> B
Ampharos-Mega B -> B-
Aggron B -> B-
Blaziken-Mega UR -> B
Garchomp-Mega B -> B-
Heracross-Mega B -> B+
Latios-Mega B -> C+
Magnezone B -> B+
Sawk B -> B-
Slaking B- -> B
Aegislash B- -> B+
Ambipom B- -> C+
Audino-Mega B- -> B
Azumarill B- -> C+
Cresselia B- -> C
Diancie B -> C+
Empoleon B- -> C+
Ferrothorn B- -> B
Jirachi B- -> B
Manectric-Mega B- -> C+
Pinsir-Mega B- -> B
Quagsire B- -> C-
Terrakion B -> C+
Thundurus-Therian B- -> B
Pidgeot-Mega C+ -> C-
Suicune C+ -> C
Blissey C- -> C
Camerupt-Mega C+ -> C-
Golem C+ -> C-
Keldeo C -> C+
Raikou C+ -> C
Regirock C -> C-
Talonflame C -> C+
Avalugg C- -> D
Banette-Mega C- -> C
Salamence C -> UR
Abomasnow-Mega C- -> D
Aurorus D -> UR
Houndoom-Mega D -> UR
Infernape C- -> D
Rotom-Heat D -> C-
Steelix-Mega D -> UR
Emboar D -> UR

Given the volatile nature of the metagame we will hold off on more labor intensive resources such as setcomp and sample teams until things have stabilized.

 

[DEG]

I lowkey think we should stop using surveys if council gonna go the opposite way of survey results. Unless I'm interpreting results wrong but the results importantly shifted in favor of Suspecting Mew. There's no need to host surveys, they seem useless

gm, ORAS council discussed ZardY, and we have decided not to go forward with metagame action on it at this time as the meta is still unstable, but we will be open to considering it in the future and include it in future surveys. We, instead, prioritized discussion on Mew, so we held a vote on whether we wanted to suspect it. The result was no suspect, as wc didn't bring as much metagame development as we had hoped for, and we would like to see how ORAS develops throughout ogpl.

 

[SEROO]

I lowkey think we should stop using surveys if council gonna go the opposite way of survey results. Unless I'm interpreting results wrong but the results importantly shifted in favor of Suspecting Mew. There's no need to host surveys, they seem useless

Mainly this is because as RADU said , we want to see how ogpl goes before making a final decision as wcop was the first big tour since zard ban so ( I can't talk about the rest of the team ) I myself at least want to see how the metagame develops a bit more before talking about a potential suspect as usage in wcop was relatively lower than I would have expected. But i do fully agree with your point

 

[Synonimous]

I lowkey think we should stop using surveys if council gonna go the opposite way of survey results. Unless I'm interpreting results wrong but the results importantly shifted in favor of Suspecting Mew. There's no need to host surveys, they seem useless

The survey indicated that Mew is on the radar and something that *could* be suspected going forward. That means that during OGPL as we see the metagame continue to adapt post-ZardX ban, we will be keeping our eye on it. These tours provide both an opportunity for evolution in the metagame that might render a suspect unecessary and more data if we think a mon is still unhealthy. I don't think that the result being more towards suspect and the council concluding not to should be taken as evidence that surveys are useless. I personally voted 4 on the survey and voted not to suspect, since I just don't think the metagame is finished developing and also don't think Mew is immediately problematic enough to warrant taking immediate action.

 

[DEG]

Mainly this is because as RADU said , we want to see how ogpl goes before making a final decision as wcop was the first big tour since zard ban so ( I can't talk about the rest of the team ) I myself at least want to see how the metagame develops a bit more before talking about a potential suspect as usage in wcop was relatively lower than I would have expected. But i do fully agree with your point

The survey indicated that Mew is on the radar and something that *could* be suspected going forward. That means that during OGPL as we see the metagame continue to adapt post-ZardX ban, we will be keeping our eye on it. These tours provide both an opportunity for evolution in the metagame that might render a suspect unecessary and more data if we think a mon is still unhealthy. I don't think that the result being more towards suspect and the council concluding not to should be taken as evidence that surveys are useless. I personally voted 4 on the survey and voted not to suspect, since I just don't think the metagame is finished developing and also don't think Mew is immediately problematic enough to warrant taking immediate action.

We're using surveys wrong then. A simple metagame discussion would have been enough. More here.

 

[Synonimous]

We're using surveys wrong then. A simple metagame discussion would have been enough. More here.

I will respond to your post regarding ORAS in this thread.
1. I disagree with the surveys serving exclusively as tiebreakers. I agree with the premise that there is a lack of community discussion and that "gather community sentiment when no other discussions are taking place," but it doesn't follow that they need to be relegated to a supplementary role or a call to action. In this case, the survey helped clarify where people stood on the current metagame and give council more information to work with when it came to suspected certain mons. In the absence of substantial metagame discussion, it makes sense to use these tools to get such a picture.
Additionally, this idea that surveys should be "binding"– "Surveys should not be conducted if there is no intention of respecting the outcome"–does not make sense give that the spectrum is not yes/no suspect. Clearly if a survey is unanimous that we should suspect, then I agree that it would be problematic if we didn't. However, if the results are more mixed or less clear (say a 4 and not a 5), it seems perfectly reasonable that council has discretion over the final decision with the survey in mind.

2. I think that the survey results regarding Mew vs. the council outcome is different in regards to the tier from SV. The most recent SV survey had 47 responders, with 23 considered "qualified." In contrast, the ORAS survey had 8 people, only 4 of which were qualified. Most, if not all, of those qualified voters were also on council. This creates the opposite worry which is that the survey may be over-representing those with the power to suspect. With this lack of diversity of opinions, it makes sense to wait until a tour which will provide more qualified voters (and metagame development) to get a better feel for whether or not we should take action. Bans in old gens are extremely sticky, and there is a general philosophy of caution when approaching them due to the smaller playerbase and activity.

3. I agree that there should be more discussion, but with the limited playerbase of old gens this is very difficult. This is especially true when there was just a ban that significantly altered the metagame, so that players who might otherwise have experience with the tier would be considered less qualified if they have not played a tour recently. I think there is a need to distinguish between surveys as the only tool to gauge community feedback and a useful one. Being able to get a quantitative picture of sentiment is useful, and I don't think we should cut ourselves off of that without a very good reason. The model of "Discuss in metagame discussion > more than one option AND ready for tiering action > survey > if favorable results suspect" is fundamentally flawed because it assumes that we know before a survey whether or not something is ready for tiering action. The whole point of a survey is to help clarify if that is the case.

 

[DEG]

I will respond to your post regarding ORAS in this thread.
1. I disagree with the surveys serving exclusively as tiebreakers. I agree with the premise that there is a lack of community discussion and that "gather community sentiment when no other discussions are taking place," but it doesn't follow that they need to be relegated to a supplementary role or a call to action. In this case, the survey helped clarify where people stood on the current metagame and give council more information to work with when it came to suspected certain mons. In the absence of substantial metagame discussion, it makes sense to use these tools to get such a picture.
Additionally, this idea that surveys should be "binding"– "Surveys should not be conducted if there is no intention of respecting the outcome"–does not make sense give that the spectrum is not yes/no suspect. Clearly if a survey is unanimous that we should suspect, then I agree that it would be problematic if we didn't. However, if the results are more mixed or less clear (say a 4 and not a 5), it seems perfectly reasonable that council has discretion over the final decision with the survey in mind.

2. I think that the survey results regarding Mew vs. the council outcome is different in regards to the tier from SV. The most recent SV survey had 47 responders, with 23 considered "qualified." In contrast, the ORAS survey had 8 people, only 4 of which were qualified. Most, if not all, of those qualified voters were also on council. This creates the opposite worry which is that the survey may be over-representing those with the power to suspect. With this lack of diversity of opinions, it makes sense to wait until a tour which will provide more qualified voters (and metagame development) to get a better feel for whether or not we should take action. Bans in old gens are extremely sticky, and there is a general philosophy of caution when approaching them due to the smaller playerbase and activity.

3. I agree that there should be more discussion, but with the limited playerbase of old gens this is very difficult. This is especially true when there was just a ban that significantly altered the metagame, so that players who might otherwise have experience with the tier would be considered less qualified if they have not played a tour recently. I think there is a need to distinguish between surveys as the only tool to gauge community feedback and a useful one. Being able to get a quantitative picture of sentiment is useful, and I don't think we should cut ourselves off of that without a very good reason. The model of "Discuss in metagame discussion > more than one option AND ready for tiering action > survey > if favorable results suspect" is fundamentally flawed because it assumes that we know before a survey whether or not something is ready for tiering action. The whole point of a survey is to help clarify if that is the case.

Model leaves room for various edits specially in the old gen department.

However I do think 4/5 is very significant and has nearly unanimousity from the community side that it's actually a dangerous precedent to ignore. There could be an argument for 3 but 4? This is another question, when is the community support enough to actually force suspect.

Also @ the last part, you can initiate discussion as council member so you're aware what the people think deserve tiering action

 

[Synonimous]

However I do think 4/5 is very significant and has nearly unanimousity from the community side that it's actually a dangerous precedent to ignore. There could be an argument for 3 but 4? This is another question, when is the community support enough to actually force suspect.

The one thing I do want to add is that I think we should more clearly define the options on surveys for suspects. Specifically, I think that the range should be:
1. Not an issue
2. Likely not an issue.
3. Potentially an issue in the future, but don't suspect now.
4. Likely an issue now, but don't suspect now.
5. Likely an issue now, suspect now.
Obviously, there's room for overlap. There might be mons that are clearly going to be problematic in the future and should be banned somewhat preemptively, but this is just how I've thought about the numbers. I think that there are many cases where something might be considered problematic, but you wouldn't want to suspect immediately (i.e. the metagame can adapt). Make it more clear what you are voting for should resolve a lot of issues regarding community sentiment about surveys.

 

[Murm]

The one thing I do want to add is that I think we should more clearly define the options on surveys for suspects. Specifically, I think that the range should be:
1. Not an issue
2. Likely not an issue.
3. Potentially an issue in the future, but don't suspect now.
4. Likely an issue now, but don't suspect now.
5. Likely an issue now, suspect now.
Obviously, there's room for overlap. There might be mons that are clearly going to be problematic in the future and should be banned somewhat preemptively, but this is just how I've thought about the numbers. I think that there are many cases where something might be considered problematic, but you wouldn't want to suspect immediately (i.e. the metagame can adapt). Make it more clear what you are voting for should resolve a lot of issues regarding community sentiment about surveys.

I do agree with more clearly defining what each ranking represents, but this is not the way to do it. One should be a clear do not suspect and Five should be a clear do suspect, but Five should not be the only number that represents wanting a suspect. A suspect test is meant to be done when the community is either set on action or is divided, where both sides have a large amount of support, aka Three. Three should be something along the lines of "maybe suspect," I think the most recent SV survey did a good job in that front.