• Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon.
  • The moderator of this forum is Quote.

Announcement 1v1 Suspect - Dragonite

Status
Not open for further replies.

Alakazam

corrupt auth xd
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Better usage stats

[15:35:09] +phiwings99: .usage1630 dragonite items 1v1

[15:35:09] *TIBot:
Flyinium Z 40.598%
Choice Scarf 20.202%
Dragonium Z 19.366%
Choice Band 11.607%
Weakness Policy 2.949%
Groundium Z 1.497%
Other 3.781%

Scarf really makes the difference for me, it pushes DNite from strong to overwhelming.
Those stats are 2 months old, from August. TIBot is always oudated, never trust it beyond for anything half-serious, always get it from the source (link below)

Idk where yall are getting your stats from, but right here shows the most updated stats for 1630 (September 2019) https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-09/moveset/gen71v1-1630.txt

Items |
| Flyinium Z 26.416% |
| Choice Band 26.100% |
| Dragonium Z 18.336% |
| Choice Scarf 14.849% |
| Weakness Policy 5.206% |
| Groundium Z 2.964% |
| Firium Z 1.667% |
| Other 4.461%

These are the usage stats, and I imagine they will soon change anyway in lieu of the Dnite suspect test for the October Usage stats.

Anyway, all I have to say is that mega lopunny beats scarf dnite pretty consistently. Most run adamant, and if you run jolly you’ll need superpower or fly, which can be run but can also be swapped out for more useful techs.

Dragonite doesn’t provide enough power in its base to make it so unpredictable in team preview, where someone can’t just look at a team and go like “he has to be scarf or else he’s bodied by this common threat” or something to that effect. This differentiates it from kyub imo, who by itself could do so many things just through eving alone which, compounded with items, forced teams to run specific hardcounters instead of teams that could win if they predicted correctly.

Tldr dnite is a less useful version of kyub in a more developed metagame. Doesn’t need the mighty ban.
 
I think a lot of people are confused on how to define a check or a counter so let me do a definitive analysis. I'm defining a counter to be a Pokemon that consistently beats Flynium Z, Dragonium Z, Choice Scarf, and Choice Band Dragonite without requiring prediction of the set. I define an almost counter to be a set that beats all sets with one set but requires prediction. A check is a mon that can beat all but 1 specific set. I'm counting both Physical and Special Dragonium and Flynium sets. Choice Scarf runs Iron Head while Choice Band does not (Flinch chances can make something less reliable as a check/counter depending on the circumstance). Choice scarf has the option to be Jolly or Adamant but by default is Adamant. For my purposes of determining C&C protect Dragonite does exist but super heavy Spdef for Greninja does not. If a mon requires very specific set details that are not backed up by usage stats I will not consider it a check or a counter in terms of the count and acknowledge it with an asterik (*). These are all C+ or above in terms of viability ranks.

1 Gyarados-Mega (DD + Outrage)
2 Mawile-Mega (Bulky PR + Sucker)
* Victini (Icium)
3/3.5 Aggron-Mega/Aggron (Rockium Z OHKOs/Metal Burst -> HS)
4 Haxorus (Scarf)
* Pheromosa (Icium)
5 Porygon2 (Trace)
6 Avalugg
7 Quagsire (Z Stockpile)

1 Mew (Kew needs Stoss for Physical Dragonium and Amnesia for special)
2 Slowbro-Mega (50/50 with Physical/Special Dragonium)
3 Altaria-Mega (50/50 Physical Special)
4 Clefable (50/50 Physical Special Flynium)
5 Sableye-Mega (50/50 Physical Special)
6 Necrozma (50/50 Dragonium Phys/Special)
7 Audino-Mega (50/50 Phys/Special)
8 Gardevoir-Mega (Trace + Will o Wisp is 50/50 in terms of not getting flinched by Scarf - You can consider it a counter though)

1 Magearna (Band EQ)
2 Greninja (Scarf)
3 Metagross-Mega (Has issues with Band/Scarf EQ, needs Ice Punch to have a chance with either)
4 Zeraora (Needs Dragonium, has issues with Jolly EQ and Protect)
5 Tapu Lele (50/50s for days + just loses to scarf)
6 Tapu Fini (Loses to physical flynium and can lose to Special if they take a 50/50)
7 Celesteela (Band Fire Punch)
8 Lopunny-Mega (Protect, Scarf Superpower)
* Togekiss (Requires precisely Electrium + Charm and still struggles with scarf)
9 Tyranitar-Mega (Superpower)
10 Jirachi (Band EQ)
11 Registeel (Band EQ)
12 Type:Null (Loses to Z Outrage and 50/50 Physical Special)
13 Whimsicott (Loses to special Flynium and 50/50s for days)
14 Archeops (Needs Band, loses to Scarf)
15 Deoxys-S (50/50s for days on both physical/special and DD/non-DD)
16 Diancie-Mega (Iron Head/EQ)
17 Kyurem (Needs Icium, Scarf)
18 Mega-Medicham (Scarf, Protect)
19 Ambipom (Scarf, Protect)
20 Umbreon (Band Superpower + 50/50s)

TL;DR
Counters: 7*
Almost Counters: 8
Checks: 20*
Total: 35
Total pokemon ranked C+ and above: 101

Notable Mons people think are checks/counters but are really not:
1. CharX - Needs Spdef Will-o-Wisp Flame Charge and to win the 50/50 and still loses to a specific Dragonium Z set.
2. Dragonite - Something is never considered a check/counter to itself
3. Zygarde - Absolutely obliterated by Band and both Dragonium Z spreads
4. Primarina - Decked by both Flynium Z sets
5. Jumpluff - Scarf + Inconsistent Espeed Matchups + Sleep being inconsistent in of itself

If there's anything I missed or you think is incorrect please pm me on discord or if you see me and I will correct it :)
 
and so I conclude that Dragonite is balanced.

real talk tho I've never had any issue predicting dnite sets idk if thats just me being a god gamer or what and also
This differentiates it from kyub imo, who by itself could do so many things just through eving alone which, compounded with items, forced teams to run specific hardcounters instead of teams that could win if they predicted correctly.

Tldr dnite is a less useful version of kyub in a more developed metagame. Doesn’t need the mighty ban.
this argument is terrible good lord dnite =/= kyub kyub =/= dnite

1 Mew (Kew needs Stoss for Physical Dragonium and Amnesia for special)
1572416856005.png

hurricane misses
Scarf really makes the difference for me, it pushes DNite from strong to overwhelming.
u only say this because you're a fellow gardevoir spammer who got flinched in every gardevoir vs scarf dragonite matchup (i feel the pain)
So basically it's a lot harder to make a working team with Dragonite around because of its unparalleled versatility on top of it already being really powerful with just one set
in terms of all purpose dnite checks the mons that check dnite aren't useless out of killing dnite, you could argue that dnite is too versatile and beats whatever else thats a check but idt predicting dnite set between physz/specialz/scarf/band isn't that hard in of itself. Anyway there goes low effort post be sure to like so that I gain smogon clout.

#freesolar
 
a
in terms of all purpose dnite checks the mons that check dnite aren't useless out of killing dnite, you could argue that dnite is too versatile and beats whatever else thats a check but idt predicting dnite set between physz/specialz/scarf/band isn't that hard in of itself. Anyway there goes low effort post be sure to like so that I gain smogon clout.

#freesolar
It's not so much predicting, that's icing. It's more actually building the team. Dragonite easily is the hardest Mon to hard counter in the metagame (unless you want to counter Gengar or Grass Whistle Whimsicott or something) so unless you want to run one of the very, very few hard counters you're forced to run multiple things for Dragonite. Now what else in the metagame is so ridiculously versatile and powerful at the same time that it forces you to run multiple checks for it most of the time?
Maybe if you like count Greninja, the ultimate c-teamer?
I suppose you could also count Mew and Necrozma, but both don't nearly do it to the same extent Dragonite does

It has the ability to restrict teambuilding harder than anything else because of its lack of hard counters, which you could argue is not desirable. I will not say objectively, but if you take my view, Dragonite is unbalanced.
 
a

It's not so much predicting, that's icing. It's more actually building the team. Dragonite easily is the hardest Mon to hard counter in the metagame (unless you want to counter Gengar or Grass Whistle Whimsicott or something) so unless you want to run one of the very, very few hard counters you're forced to run multiple things for Dragonite. Now what else in the metagame is so ridiculously versatile and powerful at the same time that it forces you to run multiple checks for it most of the time?
Maybe if you like count Greninja, the ultimate c-teamer?
I suppose you could also count Mew and Necrozma, but both don't nearly do it to the same extent Dragonite does

It has the ability to restrict teambuilding harder than anything else because of its lack of hard counters, which you could argue is not desirable. I will not say objectively, but if you take my view, Dragonite is unbalanced.
You're right, there isn't anything outside of Gren that forces this kind of building, however that isn't an argument towards it being broken. "Restricting" teambuilding will always exist to an amount, gyara forces a gyara check zard forces a zard check, dnite only has this quality bumped up by 2. Just because it forces predicting set on preview or running specific mons (that are again, not useless outside of killing dnite). On a less serious note, who the fuck teambuilds anymore when I can copy teams off of bots and use them to win.

tldr; all of u are stupid dnite is ok
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
Notable Mons people think are checks/counters but are really not:
1. CharX - Needs Spdef Will-o-Wisp Flame Charge and to win the 50/50 and still loses to a specific Dragonium Z set.
2. Dragonite - Something is never considered a check/counter to itself
3. Zygarde - Absolutely obliterated by Band and both Dragonium Z spreads
4. Primarina - Decked by both Flynium Z sets
5. Jumpluff - Scarf + Inconsistent Espeed Matchups + Sleep being inconsistent in of itself
1. *only loses in a 50/50 to Dragon Dance + Z-Outrage and a sub/tomb sets that nobody uses. Doesn't even need Flame Charge for anything besides 50/50ing the Dragon Dance + Z-Outrage set.
2. Dragonium + Extreme Speed only loses to faster Dragonium + Extreme Speed, and the main base of the argument for banning it is not knowing what set it will be, so mirror counterpoints aren't gonna save you here, as that assumes you'll always be against Dragonium.
3. You just sub until Band hits itself, you get 6 to fish with, so that's pretty likely. Dragon Dance + Z-Outrage is an issue I forgot about, though (you just sub vs Z-Draco Meteor to make them lower their spa, unless they're carrying Ice Beam).
4. An optimal Primarina that is bulked to get a sub after withstanding Charizard-Y Solar Beam can actually eat Z-Hurricane + Hurricane quite nicely, but its majority usage is physdef, so fair enough.
5. Scarf just doesn't ko unless they run ice moves now. It is a smidgen roll-reliant between hitting + sleep turns, which is why I labeled it as a check, rather than a counter.

1 Mew (Kew needs Stoss for Physical Dragonium and Amnesia for special)
2 Slowbro-Mega (50/50 with Physical/Special Dragonium)
3 Altaria-Mega (50/50 Physical Special)
4 Clefable (50/50 Physical Special Flynium)
5 Sableye-Mega (50/50 Physical Special)
6 Necrozma (50/50 Dragonium Phys/Special)
7 Audino-Mega (50/50 Phys/Special)
8 Gardevoir-Mega (Trace + Will o Wisp is 50/50 in terms of not getting flinched by Scarf - You can consider it a counter though)
1. 252+ SpA Dragonite Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 291-343 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Mew can just Taunt to block DD and heal off any damage
2. I feel like it's important to note that Slowbro is only really struggling with max spa Z-moves, which we can only imagine how much of the "Other 44.880%" of spreads that might be, with all the visible spreads being physical and all of its special moves being at 14% and below. Certainly more of a tournament issue than a ladder issue.
3. Same as Slowbro, but minus the weakness to Draco Meteor, leaving Hurricane at just 10.5% usage. Ice Beam is more accurate and hits just a smidgen harder than base Hurricane, if you wanna add that.
4. Clefable can just Moonlight turn 1 to scout the set and heal off the Z damage, since it has no fear of being boosted on
6. 252+ SpA Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 214-253 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragonite Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 127-151 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO
Necrozma is just so bulky that it can assume physical on t1 and still be fine
7. 252+ SpA Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 169-201 (41.2 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Dragonite Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 102-120 (24.8 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Same deal with Audino

I think the above makes the point clear that Dragonite isn't necessarily an inherent problem of uncertainty, but rather a problem of players not using the best versions of their pokemon + not making the right plays in order to beat Dragonite. Realistically, the only thing to debate regarding Dragonite is whether or not all the checks and counters are provided in the most accurate and relevant light, plus whether or not they meet people's discretion for having "enough" checks and counters. #MoreCountersThanPZ
 
I can see where people are coming from, Dnite has high amounts of sets, however all its checks/counters from what I've seen and used completely viable on their own, the centralization isn't that extreme, I don't see trashmons being used specifically to beat Dragonite and nothing else, or mons that are just subopmital being used for that same purpose either, centralization, while it could be bad depending how on the meta can handle it, usually isn't too crazy, because MGyarados and MZardX are centralizing mons which have counterplay, Dnite also has counterplay, and it takes time to adapt to these things. Also, every set has an answer, and it really isn't any different for Dnite.
 
1. *only loses in a 50/50 to Dragon Dance + Z-Outrage and a sub/tomb sets that nobody uses. Doesn't even need Flame Charge for anything besides 50/50ing the Dragon Dance + Z-Outrage set.
You need DD or Flame Charge for Scarf

1. 252+ SpA Dragonite Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 291-343 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Mew can just Taunt to block DD and heal off any damage
Hurricane has an inconsistent MU

6. 252+ SpA Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 214-253 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragonite Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 127-151 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Dragonite Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Necrozma: 229-270 (57.6 - 68%)
252+ SpA Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Necrozma: 153-180 (38.5 - 45.3%)
I'll be doing the PZ matchups to see how accurate that claim is :).
 
I don’t have any real opinions, just here to draw attention to the fact that synon said that a team that loses to one dnite set is unusable
 

Jocus

I COULD BE BANNED!
I've been successful on mid-to-high ladder with teams that lose to particular DNite sets:

:aegislash: :landorus-therian: :greninja:
:sawk: :aegislash: :tapu-lele:
:aegislash: :garchomp: :tapu-lele:
Choice Scarf

:magnezone: :slowbro-mega: :victini:
Electrium Z + Earthquake + ESpeed

:lopunny-mega: :aegislash: :clefable:
Band Iron Head
 
Being successful on ladder is not a good indication that the team is good. Electrium Z is super unset so that 2nd team is fine imo. And I think that three of your teams becaming 3-0d by DNite with the pioneering of scarf is a good indication of the significant meta shift it was.
 
I've been successful on mid-to-high ladder with teams that lose to particular DNite sets:

:aegislash: :landorus-therian: :greninja:
:sawk: :aegislash: :tapu-lele:
:aegislash: :garchomp: :tapu-lele:
Choice Scarf

:magnezone: :slowbro-mega: :victini:
Electrium Z + Earthquake + ESpeed

:lopunny-mega: :aegislash: :clefable:
Band Iron Head
also uh idk what kinda lop set you have on the last one and what kinda sawk set you have to make them lose to dnite but this is both not a good refutation of the "dnite is broken" mentality and the "unsets don't really matter for suspects" mentality.
 

Jocus

I COULD BE BANNED!
Not unusable on ladder, but not too good in tours; we're talking about if they're unusable, not not good
I made all three of them before Scarf started becoming popular
No one uses Band Iron Head, so I'm safe going for Encore on lops instead of Ice Punch

I'm not trying to refute the "dnite is broken" or "unsets" stuff, I'm just saying that it's fine if your team loses to a Dragonite set if no one uses it
 
3 PZ sets: Custap, Scarf, and Normallium Z Conversion -> Ghost. Z Conversion can run Recover or Nasty Plot but not both. Scarf is Modest and runs Uproar, HPFire, Ice Beam, and Hyper Beam.

1. Dragonite (You just get absolutely rekt by Fly Z, you can't hit hard enough.)
2. Magearna (This thing CMs once and reks you)
3. Tapu Lele (Fast Bulky outspeeds and nukes every PZ)
4. Meloetta (Tanks Scarf and Custap, CMs up against Conversion and destroys it with Psyshock)
5. Mawile-Mega (Spdef is a clean W across the board)
6. Tyranitar-Mega (Just cronches a clean W across the board)
7. Aggron (Clean Ws, Metal Burst + Heavy Slam does work)
8. Registeel (Clean Ws across the board)
9. Sawk (Scarf Sawk is a W)
10. Latias (Bulky Specs wins)
11. Latios (ditto)
12. Audino-Mega (Bulks everything)
13. Avalugg (Clean Ws across the board - Mirror Coat)
14. Blacephalon (Needs Overheat for consistent Custap MU but otherwise clean W)
15. Nihilego (Bulks and wins)
16. Terrakion (Bulks Hyper, bops everything)


1. Gardevoir (Speedy Bulky 50/50s Custap)
2. Zeraora (Fast Electrium just bops everything but 50/50 with Custap)
3. Aegislash (Flash Cannon is a big 50/50 with Z Conversion beat beats all the other guys)
4. Landorus-Therian (Scarf wins, 50/50 with Custap)
5/5.5. Magnezone/ton (50/50 vs HPFire Scarf, otherwise Metal Sound wins)
6. Sableye-Mega (Nasty Plot conversion can be unreliable with CM)
7. Togekiss (Electrium wins 9 times out of 10)
8. Victini (Fast Band is a 50/50 with Custap)
9. Ferrothorn (Surprised about this myself but Grassium Ferro beats all sets except for a 50/50 on Conversion)
10. Pheromosa (50/50 w/ Custap)
11. Carracosta (50/50 Scarf vs Conversion)
12. Diancie-Mega (50/50s Custap)


1. Kommo-o (252/252 Z Conversion wins, otherwise it's a roll)
2. Clefable (252/252 Z Conversion wins)
3. Heatran (Recover Z Conversion is a 50/50)
4. Blaziken-Mega (50/50s for days)
5. Jirachi (lol)
6. Necrozma (Loses to Nasty Plot Z Move)
7. Chansey (Loses to NP Z Move)
8. Blissey (Loses to NP Z Move)


TL;DR
Counters: 16
Almost-Counters: 12
Checks: 8
Total: 36
Mons ranked C+ and above: 101

PZ has similar C&C but way more counters and less checks.
 

Jocus

I COULD BE BANNED!
doesn't Scarf PZ kill Lele
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 328-386 (107.5 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you need Scarf Focus Blast on Lele to beat all Porygon-Zs

Avalugg matchup is dependent on mind games, Porygon-Z can just PP stall Mirror Coat out or attack it when it doesn't expect
 
doesn't Scarf PZ kill Lele
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 328-386 (107.5 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you need Scarf Focus Blast on Lele to beat all Porygon-Zs

Avalugg matchup is dependent on mind games, Porygon-Z can just PP stall Mirror Coat out or attack it when it doesn't expect
That's why I said bulky Lele lol. Avalugg can just click avalanche and win
 

Jocus

I COULD BE BANNED!
0 SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. +1 156 HP / 4 SpD Porygon-Z in Psychic Terrain: 298-352 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
lele set pulled from Other Options in analysis, Z-Conversion Porygon-Z outspeeds
Used Mace set for PoryZ because it's more optimized than analysis set
 
0 SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. +1 156 HP / 4 SpD Porygon-Z in Psychic Terrain: 298-352 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
lele set pulled from Other Options in analysis, Z-Conversion Porygon-Z outspeeds
Used Mace set for PoryZ because it's more optimized than analysis set
Fast. Bulky.
 

Jocus

I COULD BE BANNED!
OK. That's impossible according to my calcs:
- The MaceMaster set has 297 Speed. Tapu Lele needs a Speed-boosting nature and 180 Speed EVs to outspeed it.
- To be guaranteed to survive a Max SpA Hyper Beam from Choice Scarf, it needs 252 SpD EVs and 136 HP EVs.
180 + 252 + 136 = 568
which is above the EV limit of 508.

But it can inconsistently survive it if we optimize the remaining possible EVs:
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 232 HP / 96 SpD Tapu Lele: 300-354 (88.4 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
There are a bunch more distributions with the remaining EVs to get 25%; this is just optimized for the most physical bulk. This gets the counter (3/4 chance to win against Scarf is fine), though you have to note this beats just the Mace set for Z-Conversion.

Now if we have to EV this to beat all Porygon-Z, as you reported that it outspeeds all non-Scarf:
- We need a Timid Nature and 216 Speed EVs to outspeed.
- Now we stack the rest of the EVs in SpD to HP, optimized like last time.
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 208 HP / 84 SpD Tapu Lele: 304-358 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Nearly a cointoss, afraid that's not called a counter.

Let me know if I got EVs wrong.
 
Last edited:

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
1. Dragonite (You just get absolutely rekt by Fly Z, you can't hit hard enough.)
2. Magearna (This thing CMs once and reks you)
3. Tapu Lele (Fast Bulky outspeeds and nukes every PZ)
4. Meloetta (Tanks Scarf and Custap, CMs up against Conversion and destroys it with Psyshock)
5. Mawile-Mega (Spdef is a clean W across the board)
6. Tyranitar-Mega (Just cronches a clean W across the board)
7. Aggron (Clean Ws, Metal Burst + Heavy Slam does work)
8. Registeel (Clean Ws across the board)
9. Sawk (Scarf Sawk is a W)
10. Latias (Bulky Specs wins)
11. Latios (ditto)
12. Audino-Mega (Bulks everything)
13. Avalugg (Clean Ws across the board - Mirror Coat)
14. Blacephalon (Needs Overheat for consistent Custap MU but otherwise clean W)
15. Nihilego (Bulks and wins)
16. Terrakion (Bulks Hyper, bops everything)
1. It's not like you're necessarily limited to just Ghost Conversion- Z-Conversion into Ice is a major bop.
2. Sub + Recover wins iinm, but then you're either dropping Hyper Beam or your Conversion move, so fair enough.
3. Uh, Scarf? You ain't bulking Hyper Beam, and if you are, you ain't outspeeding Normalium.
4. Z-Conversion into Dark wins.
5. Fair
6. Fair
7. You can dance around Aggron with Recover, but I'll give this one to you out of charity.
8. Fair
9. Fair
10. I actually crafted a neat bulky set that eats specs ninja/hb garde/fb zardx/etc quite nicely, this would fall under the same branch.
11. ditto
12. This dies to both Uproar (blocking Rest) and Nasty Plot, no?
13. Z-Conversion into Dark wins. (immunity to Mirror Coat) Surely you could just pp stall Mirror Coat though, no?
14. This one even kos my spdef set, so I'll give it to you.
15. Fair
16. Fair

1. Gardevoir (Speedy Bulky 50/50s Custap)
2. Zeraora (Fast Electrium just bops everything but 50/50 with Custap)
3. Aegislash (Flash Cannon is a big 50/50 with Z Conversion beat beats all the other guys)
4. Landorus-Therian (Scarf wins, 50/50 with Custap)
5/5.5. Magnezone/ton (50/50 vs HPFire Scarf, otherwise Metal Sound wins)
6. Sableye-Mega (Nasty Plot conversion can be unreliable with CM)
7. Togekiss (Electrium wins 9 times out of 10)
8. Victini (Fast Band is a 50/50 with Custap)
9. Ferrothorn (Surprised about this myself but Grassium Ferro beats all sets except for a 50/50 on Conversion)
10. Pheromosa (50/50 w/ Custap)
11. Carracosta (50/50 Scarf vs Conversion)
12. Diancie-Mega (50/50s Custap)
1. See 10 of above
2. Um, Scarf (wow timid exists!!!). You can also just put some more bulk on it to live Fake Out + Z-fists
3. See 4 of above (you can beat basic sets with Steelium and Sneak, at least)
4. Same as Zeraora in just bulking a bit more. You barely even ko anti zardx pz without risking death by Timid Scarf.
5. Fair in that it's a 50/50, but that makes it more of a check, no?
6. Fair
7. Till you get hit with Z-Conversion into Electric Fair
8. Fast Band gets shredded by Scarf and can be bulked for like Zeraora
9. More like Specs HP Fire Fair, though you need SD for Z-Conversion
10. Timid Scarf gang
11. I'd actually label this a counter, since it wins, provided knowing the set.
12. Fair

1. Kommo-o (252/252 Z Conversion wins, otherwise it's a roll)
2. Clefable (252/252 Z Conversion wins)
3. Heatran (Recover Z Conversion is a 50/50)
4. Blaziken-Mega (50/50s for days)
5. Jirachi (lol)
6. Necrozma (Loses to Nasty Plot Z Move)
7. Chansey (Loses to NP Z Move)
8. Blissey (Loses to NP Z Move)
1. Fair (though that is the most used spread, so -1)
2. Ghost Conversion can actually just fish for spd drops and nuke
3. Metal Sound would actually win here if it weren't for the fact that offensive Normalium can actually just 2HKO with Z-hb into hb, but also just some hp lets you bulk Flash Cannon into Overheat after Z-Conversion and let you safely 2HKO without needing to worry about getting Taunted or something.
4. Fair
5. Fair
6. Not really much of a check if there are situations where it can easily just outright lose-
7. ditto
8. ditto-o

TL;DR
Counters: 16-8+1 = 9
Almost-Counters: 12-8 = 4
Checks: 8-5+1 = 4
Total: 36 - 8 + 1 - 8 - 5 + 1 = 17

I know it's a bit of a hot take to suggest non-ghost conversion pz with how used to it everyone is by now, but with Sawk being overwhelmingly scarfed nowadays, basically the one reason to convert into Ghost is gone, as well as running near max speed in order to outpace Sawk. Most importantly, Porygon-Z isn't experiencing anywhere near the same amount of opportunity cost in running alternative sets as Dragonite would be in running, say, Groundium, Firium, or even Choice Scarf, so while these sets that I bring up aren't necessarily mainstream, they certainly aren't just gimmicky bait sets, either.
 
zmove + espeed, w protect for mlop. cmon waylaid the lele/aegis/sawk team loses as fuck to dnite idk how u dont know this :<
okay buddy. dnite really only effectively beats 2/3 of the sets each time but thanks for letting us know.
 
okay buddy. dnite really only effectively beats 2/3 of the sets each time but thanks for letting us know.
dd z-fly w eq 3-0s it yeah
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-10/gen71v1-1630.txt
maybe you should use current results. dnite is no.1 and victini is lower
lol i blame autocomplete links. my bad.

ok bitchy dnite post take 2
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-10/gen71v1-1630.txt
very interesting how:
- dragonite is #1 (lol)
- gyara is #3 even though it beats like no move users besides dnite
- mega garde is #7 (wonder why)
- mawile literally has more usage than magearna
- haxorus has more usage than meloetta

and people still think it doesn't warp the meta
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pqs
very interesting how:
- dragonite is #1 (lol)
- gyara is #3 even though it beats like no move users besides dnite
- mega garde is #7 (wonder why)
- mawile literally has more usage than magearna
- haxorus has more usage than meloetta

and people still think it doesn't warp the meta
Very interesting how:
-The usage of a pokemon rises during its suspect :o
Same thing happened with KyuB, making #1 in a very short amount of time during its suspect, and rachi had high usage during its suspect as well. More people are using Dnite just because they think it’s broken by it being suspected.
-Consequently, the usage of its counters also increases because people expect to see more of Dnite during a Dnite suspect. Again, :o
-This also shows that there are indeed certified checks to Dnite, and people are noticing and using them. The metagame adapts to the mons that are in it. There would be nowhere near as many bulky waters and rocks if Charizard was removed from the meta, but is charizard broken?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 5)

Top