Announcement 1v1 Suspect - Dragonite

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Smogon's Resident Robot
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Our final suspect for Sun and Moon 1v1 is Dragonite. Over the past few months Dragonite has risen in usage and become a trademark of many 1v1 teams. With Multiscale allowing it to tank most super-effective hits and its vast movepool giving it coverage options for almost any threat, Dragonite is powerful and unpredictable. Many of its sets are viable at a high-level, such as Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Flyinium Z/Dragonium Z (physical or special), and even Groundium Z. Because of this, teambuilding has felt much more restrictive than in the past and Dragonite has become more difficult to assess at Team Preview. However, some dispute this, as Dragonite's matchups against some of the more common Mega Evolutions are heavily argued. The purpose of this suspect is to determine the level of Dragonite's unpredictability and its effects on teambuilding, and if these aspects are overbearing enough to remove it from the metagame.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 75.5 with at least 70 games played. For this suspect test, we will be using the regular 1v1 ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with 1VDN to qualify. Dragonite will be legal on the ladder. The suspect will end on November 6th, 11:59 PM EST. Dragonite will require a vote of 60% Ban to be banned from SM 1v1.

GXE ≥ 75.5
Battle count ≥ 70

You must use a fresh account registered after the posting of this thread for your reqs. This alt must begin with 1VDN, e.g. 1VDN Quote

If you have achieved the voting requirements, CLICK HERE.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process
3. Be respectful

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them. Have fun!
 
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(I wrote this on my phone so expect a ton of typos)

As the SM meta has continued, Dragonite has been getting better and better. Due to changes like the KyuB ban and the Mimikyu Ban, this thing has been losing more and more counters. Multiscale along with psuedo-legend stats let it run almost any set it wants. As it stands I am currently undecided as to whether or not we should ban Dragonite. For this suspect there a few common arguments about the suspect of Dragonite that I want to discuss.

1. Dragonite
Bet you didn't expect to see this one /s. What I mean by this is a line that I've already been seeing: people who have been introduced to an SM metagame with Dragonite and want to continue using it in the future. To those people I say that you should put the overall health of the metagame and its future first: take a hard look at Dragonite and if you think it's broken, vote to ban it and vice versa if you think it's fine. How much you like a Pokemon shouldn't factor into it being uncompetitive or overcentralizing.

2. Mega Gyarados
Another common argument I've seen is that regardless of other factors, given that Mega Gyarados is a hard counter to (almost) every conceivable Dragonite set and is consistently one of the top three most used Pokemon in the metagame that Dragonite shouldn't be banned. I think that regardless of whether you want to ban it or not, this argument is reductive at its core. Having one specific hard counter isn't a reason to not ban it regardless of how viable it is. If you want to justify that Dragonite isn't bannable, don't rely on this argument and instead point to the many other viable checks that support it being easily beatable.

3. Unpredictability
I personally think that this is one of the most slippery arguments that a pro ban individual can make. Just because you can't identify what item a Dragonite is using at preview doesn't mean that it's fundamentally broken, and a Dragonite can't run every set at once (Schrödinger's Dragonite ). A better argument is the sheer number of sets it can run due to the supporting factors of its ability and stats, similar to KyuB.

To close, put aside your personal beliefs about Dragonite, gl on reqs, evaluate according to suspect philosophy, and have fun!
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
My thoughts on this suspect:

If (this is extremely hypothetical) a Pokemon has only one check/counter, it is broken. It would centralize the game so far as to force every team to have its check/counter. But, of course, this isn't happening. Osra pointed out more than a dozen hard counters to the main sets to me and dozens more soft checks and counters.

No one cares if Mon X loses to Z-Surf Dragonite. No one ever uses Z-Surf Dragonite. "Dragonite beats your hard counter Mon X with this stupid, unviable set blah blah blah" is not a valid argument. Theory must be backed by empirical experience, or else we better ban everything.

Let's look at some precedents and other community consensuses:
1. A major reason to ban KyuB was, along with its obscene power, set versatility.
2. Very few experienced players, if any, consider Mega Charizard X to be broken/uncompetitive.

If we stretch this even further, we can look at suspects in other tiers:
1. Scizor was suspected in UU this generation. Its only hard counters are Quagsire and Pyukumuku (aka stall), and even then it could U-turn out and maintain offensive momentum against stall. It was not banned. UU players and 1v1 players should both have one idea: don't play Jenga with the tier. Put another way, don't carelessly remove large stones from a mix of smaller stones.
2. Greninja was banned in Gen 6 OU because of its set versatility that allowed it to beat nearly everything.
 

Cheese5555

too cheesy
why is dnite legal on the ladder? We’ve had fully 3(? might be two im stupid) years of it on ladder, wouldn’t we want to see if 1v1’s better without it on ladder?
the policy reasoning (for other tiers) is because your decision should be based on whether the mon is unhealthy/broken/uncompetitive, not how the meta will be after the potential ban. the tiering philosophy is that if a mon is broken it should be banned and the meta should be adjusted to balance it afterwards
 
I'm gonna go ahead and compare Dragonite's hard counters to in my opinion, and absolutely wonderful example of a very strong but balanced Pokemon, Mega Gyarados
This is osra's list
1 Gyarados-Mega hard L
2 Mew Kew hard counters. The only downside is that it needs an attack for Z-Dragon Dance techs. (E: Eriey would like for me to clarify that a common Kew set with an attacking move over Amnesia beats all relevant dnite sets) This means seismic toss mew, which is this
Seismic Toss 10.278%. Granted Mew's move data is massively messed up so I'm not going to give Amnesia stats but instead
Kee Berry 20.643% about half, assuming no one ran non Kee Berry seismic toss mew, but I doubt that
3 Slowbro-Mega only loses if it predicts physical but runs into special with max spa stab zmoves and vice versa You need to predict the set, but I'll give it to you
4 Altaria-Mega similar case to Slowbro You need to predict the set, but I'll give it to you
5 Clefable banded Iron Head is not a thing- Eh close enough
6 Jumpluff just don't miss ez Insert serperior joke
7 Mawile-Mega not necessarily 100% hard L, but after seeing Firium lose to Mawile, it's basically as good a counter as you can get
8 Sableye-Mega just needs to predict physical vs special You need to predict the set, but I'll give it to you
9 Togekiss Z-Thunder Wave and Charm You mean this Togekiss? Charm 7.370%
10 Victini Icium beats all. Other sets all vary/lose This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite
11 Aggron-Mega unless you're running min spdef vs Firium, burst into Head Smash should win
12 Haxorus Scarf > Scarf This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite
13 Jirachi Scarf Ice Punch (note: loses to banded earthquake) You mean like, the regular band set?
14 Necrozma berry eats p much any hit
15 Pheromosa z-blizzard is yikes, but wins. Even outspeeds Scarf This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite
16 Porygon2 multiscale trace is yikes, not even band superpower saves you I'mma pretend I didn't see the Trace part, but as long as you predict the set with Analytic you're good
17 Audino-Mega bulks hits across the board
18 Avalugg Avalanche is just a clean KO
19 Quagsire requires careful bulking, but can eat both physical and special hits quite nicely
and then 31 checks that beat a majority of dnite's main sets quite nicely but lose to one or two particular things. That doesn't count
I went down to C+ just like this did and to my count of 101, and there are 17 hard counters (two are straight up unsets)
Edit: mb it's 16 because Jirachi loses to band lol

Now for everybody's favorite Shrimp Mega Gyarados!
1. Mega Metagross
2. Porygon-Z
3. Tapu Lele
4. Mega Gardevoir
5. Zeraora
6. Kommo-o
7. Flyinium Lando T
8. Primarina
9. Tapu Fini
10. Mega Altaria
11. Celesteela according to pqs's analysis it wins apparently
12. Clefable
13. Genesect
14. Mega Mawile
15. Serperior
16. Togekiss
17. Mega Venusaur
18. Ferrothorn
19. Specs Hoopa U
20. Kartana
21. Magneton (unless you REALLY want to count Jolly EQ Gyarados)
22. Whimsicott
23. Manaphy
24. Thunder Punch Medicham Thunder Punch 18.960% higher than I thought it was, but counts
25. Mega Pinsir
26. Tapu Bulu
27. Vivillon
28. Zapdos
29. Ambipom
tbh idk if Audino wins
30. Durant
30. Mega Gallade I was told it wins
31. Mega Heracross
32. Raikou
33. Rotom-Heat
34. Salamence
35. Scrafty
36. Smeargle

Gyarados noticeably has twice as many counters
Oh and also if we count Scarf, Dragonite has as 6 sets all in A-S, and that's ridiculous

Edit: Jocus looks like he wants me to clarify that Mega Gyarados is a supremely powerful force, and Dragonite being that much harder to beat is just a little bit overpowered
 
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My thoughts on this suspect:

If (this is extremely hypothetical) a Pokemon has only one check/counter, it is broken. It would centralize the game so far as to force every team to have its check/counter. But, of course, this isn't happening. Osra pointed out more than a dozen hard counters to the main sets to me and dozens more soft checks and counters.

No one cares if Mon X loses to Z-Surf Dragonite. No one ever uses Z-Surf Dragonite. "Dragonite beats your hard counter Mon X with this stupid, unviable set blah blah blah" is not a valid argument. Theory must be backed by empirical experience, or else we better ban everything.

Let's look at some precedents and other community consensuses:
1. A major reason to ban KyuB was, along with its obscene power, set versatility.
2. Very few experienced players, if any, consider Mega Charizard X to be broken/uncompetitive.

If we stretch this even further, we can look at suspects in other tiers:
1. Scizor was suspected in UU this generation. Its only hard counters are Quagsire and Pyukumuku (aka stall), and even then it could U-turn out and maintain offensive momentum against stall. It was not banned. UU players and 1v1 players should both have one idea: don't play Jenga with the tier. Put another way, don't carelessly remove large stones from a mix of smaller stones.
2. Greninja was banned in Gen 6 OU because of its set versatility that allowed it to beat nearly everything.
Unlike Scizor, Dragonite isn't a cornerstone of 1v1. Scizor is more like OU LandoT where it's everywhere but necessary glue and not oppressive. Saying this misunderstands the role of Dragonite in the tier. A Scizor ban would be more akin to banning MGyara, but you can't really make a good comparison with 6v6 with the differences between the formats. Dragonite's issue if we decide to ban it wouldn't be overcentralization but rather lack of C&C. Also Eriey put work into his post, don't dismiss it by misunderstanding its point.
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
let's backtrack a bit here-
1. Physically Defensive Thunder Punch Mega Metagross This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite Gyarados because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite Gyarados
7. Physically Defensive Flyinium Lando T This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite Gyarados because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite Gyarados
14. Mega Mawile little known fact that Gyarados can 2HKO Mawile with -1 Earthquake (though it is roll reliant), not to mention the 81% chance of hitting both Play Rough.
15. Grassium Serperior bop and bop. simply just not reliable with the basic leftovers set people love so much
16. Togekiss You mean this Togekiss? Charm 7.370%
17. Mega Venusaur /dt taunt
18. Grassium Ferrothorn
19. Specs Hoopa U solid check, but you're constantly 50/50ing between whether to use tbolt or grass knot, and heavens forbid if you're slower, 'cause now you're giving gyarados a 41.2% chance at crit/flinching you with 2 waterfalls
22. Moonblast Whimsicott
23. Tail Glow + Icy Wind + Energy Ball Manaphy This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite Gyarados because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite Gyarados
24. Thunder Punch Rock Tomb Medicham Thunder Punch 18.960% higher than I thought it was, but counts Rock Tomb is a consistent 3HKO with Fake Out + Tomb + HJK, regardless of whether or not they mega at any point, while Thunder Punch relies on 50/50s or raw surprise factor.
27. Vivillon Roll reliant. Gyarados can easily wake up, Taunt you, break the sub, and then KO you, while you have to rely on at least 2 or 3 sleep rolls in order to set up what you need. Flyinium does allow you to 2HKO at +1, thus saving you a turn.
29. Z-Tickle + Low Sweep Ambipom This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite Gyarados because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite Gyarados
tbh idk if Audino wins (not as long as Taunt exists)
30. Durant
30. Mega Gallade I was told it wins I missed wisp 2/3 times while testing this, but it's true. WoW followed by Tomb spam typically does the trick.
34. Salamence same kind of deal as serperior, where a well timed Taunt can end you. bop
35. Thunder Punch/Head Smash? Z-Bulk Up? Scrafty I honestly don't know with this one. Maybe Foul Play into HJK KOs? This is assuming you're referring to the Darkinium set that is by far the most prevalent, currently.
36. Smeargle Roll reliant. This one is at least in Smeargle's favor with only needing a 2 turn, but still-
Firstly, while comparing a Pokemon's checks and counters to another is certainly a good way to gauge brokenness, it's a bit more complicated than just assuming that one mon possesses every viable setup it can possibly use at one time. If that were the case, we'd be suspecting Porygon-Z instead of Dragonite, as it does so much more with just its two Scarf and Normalium sets than Dragonite does with its six or so. Opportunity cost needs to be taken into account. With this in mind, the sea of checks that beat all but one of Dragonite's best sets start to drag down its rate of success.

When you start considering opportunity cost, you have to think about what each set retains, with regards to the matchups shared by them all. Kyurem-Black was broken, as nearly all of its sets, besides the more gimmicky ones, retained many of the same matchups of the other sets, while also providing substantial gains in newfound important matchups from each individual set. Dragonite, by comparison, isn't retaining as many of the important matchups between each set to warrant a ban, in my opinion.

Ultimately, I simply don't believe Dragonite is broken enough to warrant being banned for the reason of being broken. Perhaps after a Porygon-Z or Charizard suspect, but not now.
 
I'm here for "Schrodinger's Dragonite" tbh. Dnite is a fantastic pokemon and adds excitement to the tier. It allows newer players to test their minds while guessing what dnite set makes sense, as well as being a great pokemon in some sets and a pretty good pokemon in others. But, like osra said, set changes in dnite do not necessarily retain previous favorable matchups. I'm gonna stick with my arguement that dnite is not broken because every set cannot be run at once. It's a hard choice at select, but once you're in battle, you're facing an A+ set, not a broken one.
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
Copied from 1v1 gen info thread. Some chosen considerations:

"1v1 Suspect Philosophy

As an attempt to draw visible traces between what is broken and what isn't broken, I will be posting the 1v1 tiering philosophy that should be referred as a base to construct your arguments on it. We definitely don't want this metagame to turn into Ubers 1v1 nor NU 1v1, we want to build a strict line and finish from a plethora of arguments with different philosophies in head. We won't follow OU or other metagame's tiering philosophy as 1v1 is a different concept which doesn't respond to the call. By studying the thread and the ladder for months, we have concluded:"

Are we playing Jenga with the metagame? Will 1v1 devolve into 1v1 NU if Dragonite is banned? Who knows, if the lynch mob of whiners and low ladder legends bans Dragonite, it's going to call for bans on SubSeed and Sleep and Serene Grace. 75.5% GXE is almost absurd reqs; there's no room for another public suspect.

"1) A Pokemon is deemed suspect worthy if it's overcentralizing in the 1v1 metagame, a significantly high usage justifies the large scale it takes in the metagame which is unhealthy and needs to be looked on. This is 1v1 and not a battle between two teams, a Pokemon with high usage proves that its strong and easily splashable on most teams.

2) By definition a broken Pokemon is a Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of checks and counters. Let's define C&C in 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that can defeat another with a specific set but if it uses another it may lose. A counter is a Pokemon that can defeat another Pokemon no matter what it runs. Ex: Mega Blastoise is a check to Mega Charizard Y if it runs full spdf and mirror coat but Chansey is a counter to Mega Charizard Y as it can always beat it. A pokemon is deemed broken if it defeats at least more than the half of the metagame with a set or its other viable sets without having an opportunity cost, that was the case of Mega Salamence which could easily adjust between two sets and defeat more than half of the meta."
The bolded is controversial.

"6) Being an unpredictable Pokemon shouldn't be a strong trait to base your arguments on but still is a way of view and can be looked on. This is 1v1, it's sure that a lot of Pokemon will have different sets to check their checks and derailing from the norm is always something we should encourage as it helps in giving more life to the metagame. So, let's set up a clear definition of what an unpredictable Pokemon is: It's a Pokemon that can make use of different sets with little to no opportunity cost and still be able to beat half of the metagame with whatever set it runs. Per example an unpredictable Pokemon would be Mega Gyarados as it has a big movepool to pick from, and can adjust itself to beat some Pokemon, but that doesn't make it broken since it comes with some opportunity cost."

Definitely a weak ban argument.

"7) Staying on the topic of sets, don't bring in discussion niche sets just to prove that this Pokemon is broken since it can adapt easily, it's just not a good base to build on since most Pokemon can also run niche sets to defeat other."

Haban Berry, Firium Z, Choice Specs, Waterium Z, etc. arguments are invalid.

"8) Don't bring up complex bans they are unneeded and just creates more confusion. Per example if Trick+Choice Item is broken it's not the strategy itself but the user that makes it broken, taking per example Chansey and Meloetta. Chansey will defeat Meloetta even if its tricked if the Meloetta lacks Psyshock but if Meloetta has Psyshock it will be able to defeat Chansey. (Yes we're aware that Z-Detect is a complex ban)"

No Multiscale bans.
 
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1. Physically Defensive Thunder Punch Mega Metagross This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite Gyarados because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite Gyarados I'mma pull PrimaFini clause (yes I know it doesn't beat sub Prima)
7. Physically Defensive Flyinium Lando T This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite Gyarados because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite Gyarados Keep in mind this is a STAB Z Move it's not like the set is purely c team, unlike Icium Victini
14. Mega Mawile little known fact that Gyarados can 2HKO Mawile with -1 Earthquake (though it is roll reliant), not to mention the 81% chance of hitting both Play Rough. Yeah I know, but you can't let Magneton through but not Mawile
15. Grassium Serperior bop and bop. simply just not reliable with the basic leftovers set people love so much You're actually right on this one, fast Gyarados with Dragon Dance, Taunt, and Crunch can win assuming you predict everything correctly
16. Togekiss You mean this Togekiss? Charm 7.370% ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I know scarf isn't reliable, but for comedic purposes clears throat I mean this Togekiss: Air Slash 99.803%
17. Mega Venusaur /dt taunt tbh I don't feel like doing this one so uhh slap Giga Drain on it or something
18. Grassium Ferrothorn ok
19. Specs Hoopa U solid check, but you're constantly 50/50ing between whether to use tbolt or grass knot, and heavens forbid if you're slower, 'cause now you're giving gyarados a 41.2% chance at crit/flinching you with 2 waterfalls 0 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Gyarados: 197-232 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO you are right about the flinching thing, but if Jumpluff counts against Dragonite this counts
22. Moonblast Whimsicott Ok
23. Tail Glow + Icy Wind + Energy Ball Manaphy This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite Gyarados because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite Gyarados I'mma pull PrimaFini clause
24. Thunder Punch Rock Tomb Medicham Thunder Punch 18.960% higher than I thought it was, but counts Rock Tomb is a consistent 3HKO with Fake Out + Tomb + HJK, regardless of whether or not they mega at any point, while Thunder Punch relies on 50/50s or raw surprise factor. You mean this Togekiss?
27. Vivillon Roll reliant. Gyarados can easily wake up, Taunt you, break the sub, and then KO you, while you have to rely on at least 2 or 3 sleep rolls in order to set up what you need. Flyinium does allow you to 2HKO at +1, thus saving you a turn. If Jumpluff counts against Dragonite this counts
29. Z-Tickle + Low Sweep Ambipom This is an argument AGAINST Dragonite Gyarados because this set exists solely for the purpose of Dragonite Gyarados
tbh idk if Audino wins (not as long as Taunt exists) Keep in mind this is a STAB Z Move it's not like the set is purely c team
30. Durant
30. Mega Gallade I was told it wins I missed wisp 2/3 times while testing this, but it's true. WoW followed by Tomb spam typically does the trick. Ok
34. Salamence same kind of deal as serperior, where a well timed Taunt can end you. Whoever told me it wins lied (thought it was like some z d dance tech?)
35. Thunder Punch/Head Smash? Z-Bulk Up? Scrafty I honestly don't know with this one. Maybe Foul Play into HJK KOs? This is assuming you're referring to the Darkinium set that is by far the most prevalent, currently. Tbh this one doesn't even matter because nobody uses this except me
36. Smeargle Roll reliant. This one is at least in Smeargle's favor with only needing a 2 turn, but still- If Jumpluff counts against Dragonite this counts
Anyway, I say we just yeet away Groundium and Firium Dragonite and just give the Metagross as a hard counter, as that's the only thing (I saw) that those Z moves can do over the main sets

Idk if I'll go over opportunity cost in a later post, but I really value versatility (Victini, Zeraora)

Oh and also as light hearted fun (disclaimer: this is meant as a joke): " A pokemon is deemed broken if it defeats at least more than the half of the metagame with a set or its other viable sets" -Suspect Philsophy Jocus found
Osra's 19 + 31 counters and checks adds up to 50
There are 101 Mons from S-C+ (shut up opposing Dragonite)
Therefore, Dragonite broken because 50/101 < 50/100, meaning Dragonite beats more than half of the metagame
 

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Smogon's Resident Robot
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
Please heed the rules listed at the top. Stop arguing over semantics and other factors that don't relate to the suspect. This is about Dragonite, so discuss DRAGONITE. I will be handing out infractions for anyone else that disregards the rules from this point onward.
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
A question: So I've noticed that there appears to be a plot to rig wins and losses to favor anti-ban players. Discussion in the 1v1 room appeared to be lighthearted, though there were certain remarks that made it seem like the plot existed. I remember that when I was laddering for reqs, 187 Fan forfeited every game versus me after I had declared myself as an anti-ban individual. Is this type of conspiracy allowed?
 
my thoughts on this suspect: suspecting dnite is a pussy move, and thats objective. this mon doesnt need a suspect at all. maw, alt, crustle, they all fuck it up. if your team isnt fully prepared and gets absolutely shitpumped by dnite you prolly just suck. suspects are for mons that are actually busted and put too much pressure in the teambuilder, not mons that are just good and not straight up broken. dnite has never been trouble for people, since so many stuff just naturally check it. magnezone, magearna, celesteela. i think it shouldn’t be banned at all tbh
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
Magnezone beats Dragonite?
Dragonite sets that beat Magnezone:
- Flyinium & Dragonium Z (Fire Blast/Earthquake into Extreme Speed)
- Firium Z & Groundium Z (Z-Move into Extreme Speed)
- Choice Scarf (Fire Blast / Earthquake twice)
- Choice Band (Bulldoze twice)
 
Alright my take on Dragonite.

It is not broken, because if it was it would have very limited checks, Dragonite can be dealt by literally bringing any type of ice coverage, and if you're unable to deal with Dragonite, then that's your fault for not considering it. Dragonite doesn't overcentralize the meta either because you got Porygon-Z, MLopunny, MGyarados, Greninja, MAggron, Jirachi and more that can deal with it, which are already really good Pokemon on their own, suspects are for pokemon that are overcentralizing and put too much strain on teambuilding, Dragonite doesn't do that at all, it's really good but not broken, so it shouldn't be banned in my opinion.
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
most Dragonites run bulk
Porygon-Z and Genesect's Ice Beams don't kill it
You need Icium Z on Jirachi to have a good shot vs Dragonite, you're not getting 4 flinches with Iron Head
Scarf Dragonite beats Lele and MLopunny, usage stats show it's becoming more popular
 
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Jocus

Banned deucer.
September usage stats (1630+):
Dragonite 13.33659%
Firium Z 1.667%
That's 0.22% on mid-high ladder, as common as:
| 150 | Aron | 0.22874% | 6300 | 1.022% | 2704 | 2.678% |
stupid F.E.A.R. mon on high ladder...
pretty much niche, don't need to talk about it
the reason we don't put high value on niche sets is that other niche sets can be made to beat niche sets
 
my thots: scarf is dogshit outside of tours and cteaming and i used it way before other users started spamming it now people expect it so its even worse aka its not as big of a problem as people make it to be. secondly its not as hard to guess the set especially if u know the type of player u are facing to be fair its not 100% predictable at times but i have had situations where its much harder to guess the zard variant which is usually much scarier and lasty people that compare dinite to kyub are just wrong plain n simple. dont ban esp since the gen is ending anyway
the end.
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
Usage stats:
Dragonite
Flyinium Z 26.416%
Choice Band 22.243%
Dragonium Z 21.775%
Choice Scarf 7.917%
Groundium Z 4.974%
Weakness Policy 4.926%
Other 4.617%
People have moved away from Dragonite's conventional (and best IMO) set Dragonium Z in favor of Flyinium Z and Choice Band, I presume to cheese Fairies. I agree, usually it's pretty easy to guess the Dragonite set on ladder. (This probably doesn't work on low ladder because no one knows what in the hell those players are thinking when they teambuild) Choice Scarf is pretty obvious, the Fairy lure sets are pretty obvious. Otherwise people just slap on whatever set is their favorite, usually Flyinium, but it's not Dragonite's fault that bad players choose whatever and make it unpredictable.
 
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Reactions: pqs
Y'all completely missing that band dnite is a thing? That shit beats rachi and gear. Also Jocus if you think Dragonium is Dnites "conventional set" you're just wrong, Flynium has always been the most common Z move set. I think that people misunderstand 2 things this suspect: the team building constraints and overcentralizing. You don't notice dnite while team building because you don't actively build around it. Unless you have a Mega Gyara or one of the few hard dnite counters, your dragonite matchup can be unreliable. As for overcentralizing, I don't believe it is unless you consider the rise of WOW + FC Spdef CharX, Scarf Hax, and Mega Gyara a result. The issue is too few RELIABLE checks and counters which I believe could make it bannable.
 
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Better usage stats

[15:35:09] +phiwings99: .usage1630 dragonite items 1v1

[15:35:09] *TIBot:
Flyinium Z 40.598%
Choice Scarf 20.202%
Dragonium Z 19.366%
Choice Band 11.607%
Weakness Policy 2.949%
Groundium Z 1.497%
Other 3.781%

Scarf really makes the difference for me, it pushes DNite from strong to overwhelming.
 
Let's add onto this
Strain on teambuilding is the main reason for this suspect. Dragonite is extremely popular, so if you don't beat all the sets (disregard Firium, only beats Metagross) your team is unusable (this describes lots of mons, but it leads to the next point). Now the problem is you either need to bring one of the very few Dragonite hard counters, or bring multiple mons to counter Dragonite's different sets and just git gud and predict at team preview. This is a giant restrain on teambuilding, debateably broken. Now the main issue here is scarf usage. Now just outspeeding with mons like Greninja, Tapu Lele, and Gardevoir won't cut it for your Dragonite countering quota. Dragonite is just really hard to blanket check.
Just because it bothers me I'll go ahead and say why the recent stated counters don't work, disregarding Firium unsets
Mawile: I'll give you this one, Mawile does a pretty good job at being one of the 16 counters (assuming that list was NOT including under C+, that's out of 100 mons)
Mega Altaria: As long as you predict the set, this is one of the 16
Crustle: The way Crustle can win this is actually Counter because Extreme Speed op, which turns it into a 50/50 (assuming they don't run Z-Hurricane, technically the other main set along with Z-Outrage)
Or I suppose you can just go Rock Blast and hope you get really lucky with the rolls
Magnezone: Lol no
Magearna: Loses to Choice Band
Celesteela: Choice Band Fire Punch
Porygon-Z: This one is just straight up wrong, Dragonite can just casually face tank and then murder PZ
Mega Lopunny: This one is actually Protect because adamant scarf doesn't outspeed lol
Greninja: Scarf or SpD
Mega Aggron: I'll give you this one
Jirachi: Choice Band
Edit: this was longer than intended so I made a hide box

So basically it's a lot harder to make a working team with Dragonite around because of its unparalleled versatility on top of it already being really powerful with just one set
 
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