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The first suspect for SS 1v1 will be Mew. Mew is currently one of the more devastating speed traps of the metagame, using its unique combination of Imprison + Transform to force most Pokemon into KOing themselves with Struggle recoil. This is backed by relatively natural bulk and speed, as well as its ability to run nearly anything it wants in its last two slots, such as Taunt, Magic Room, Substitute, Protect, or coverage moves to shut out certain matchups faster. It can even run Shadow Ball, not as an offensive option, but in order to beat common Ghost-types like Dragapult and Aegislash, who would normally be able to beat Mew. Alongside Imprison + Transform, Choice Band Mew can surprisingly be utilized to lure and beat in the common checks to Imprison + Transform Mew, such as Dark-types like Tyranitar and Hydreigon, as well as Pokemon that could KO Mew with struggle, like Darmanitan-G, or surprise stall Pokemon like Corviknight and Rotom-Wash with Trick. Mew has an answer to all kinds of playstyles, aided by phenomenal base stats that allows any one set to be a powerhouse in the metagame, proving to be extremely splashable and extremely hard to completely lock down.
The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 73.5 with at least 50 games played. For this suspect test, we will be using the regular 1v1 ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with 1VMS to qualify. Mew will be legal on the ladder. The suspect will end on February 3rd, 11:59 PM EST. Mew will require a vote of 60% Ban to be banned from SS 1v1.
GXE ≥ 73.5
Battle count ≥ 50
You must use a fresh account registered after the posting of this thread for your reqs. This alt must begin with 1VMS, e.g. 1VMS Quote
If you have achieved the voting requirements, CLICK HERE.
When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process
3. Be respectful
Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them. Have fun!
My thoughts on niche sets are more nuanced than Dragonite. How Mew affects the metagame takes effect on the battlefield, not in speculation on a Smogon thread. We should not be primarily basing our opinions on this suspect solely on the fact that Mew can use niche sets; rather, we should be looking at which niche sets are actually being used. Looking at the 1630+ moveset stats (link), here is the rarity of relevant niche sets:
The usage of Mew is 13.50097%, which is #4 total.
The usage of Choice Band is 11.647%, or 1.572% of all Pokemon on ladder. This is closest to the usage of Goodra.
(From now on I will abbreviate these.)
Choice Specs: 6.440%, 0.869%. Eiscue.
Choice Scarf: 4.048%, 0.547%. Shuckle.
Colbur: 2.954%, 0.399%. Torkoal.
Kasib: 1.945%, 0.263%. Frosmoth.
Tanga: 1.308%, 0.177%. Shedinja.
In total, the six niche items I mentioned had a usage of 28.342%, or 3.826% of all Pokemon on ladder. This is closest to the usage of Rotom-W.
The rounding used in data was only that used in the usage stats, and the rounding in calculated percentages was to the third digit after the decimal point.
As we can see, it appears that Mew's non-Imprison + Transform sets, when looked at individually, have little relevance, but when looked at collectively are relevant on the same level as those in the 3-4% range.
I'll consider updating the usage calculations once we get January stats for a post-Sableye metagame.
Reqs Stuff:
So the reqs were easy to achieve once i got on a roll. It may have taken me 40 attempts to get on that roll, but the ladder just became what I needed it to be. I clicked chandelure i think... once? twice? ig its scary to some people
Band Snorlax is really good right now (252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 132 Def Snorlax: 195-230 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) like outspeeds pex, and it lives specs sylveon w/ 48 leftover so ig spdef
Metagame Stuff:
Sleeper Threats
Weezing (loses to mew)
Golisopod (beats mew)
Snorlax (BEATS MEW cuz band struggle slaps)
Mandibuzz (loses to mew)
These pokemon are all very strong and anti-meta. A ton of people got reqs with Mandibuzz already. Somebody's gonna do it with Weezing, and somebody with Golisopod, they're just so good.
Mew Stuff:
So Mew's in a great spot right now, obviously.
Mew's main strengths are it's incredible stat spread and versatility.
Mew typically falls into one of 2 categories
- Imprison
- Choice
The dispersal of Imprison to new Pokemon such as Mew hasn't had much effect on most Smogon Metagames, but 6v6 is lame and here we are. Imprison + Transform works to delete any slower Pokemon that can't OHKO it. This is augmented by Mew's access to moves such as Shadow Ball, Phantom Force, Shadow Claw, Taunt, and Substitute, which all act to disable the opponent's options with Imprison. In addition, this splashability carries over to items as well. Mental Herb, Sitrus Berry, Kasib Berry, White Herb, and Colburr Berry all come to mind as strong options. This versatility allows Imprison Mew to be hard to beat, but it can be blanket checked.
This is where Choice comes in. Choice Band and Choice Specs are viable items for Mew. This gives Mew the ability to use it's vast offensive movepool along with great combination of bulk, speed, and damage to deal with a lot of Pokemon such as Hydreigon, Haxorus, Dragapult, Darmanitan, and more.
Choice Scarf is a different type of set. It utilizes Trick and Transform, along with either Psychic Fangs or Psychic and a coverage move (eg. Ice Beam, Outrage, Overheat). Transform can allow Mew to take games against stuff like Darmanitan, who will be locked into Icicle crash on an Ice-type.
Mew's lack of fatal flaws sets it apart from the rest of the lot. It in some ways emulates Tapu Koko, lacking any true flaws (for example, Koko's Electric Seed ID Set that allowed it to beat many ground types). This isn't to say that Mew doesn't have counters or bad matchups, because it does. For example, Liechi Berry Cinderace and Golisopod are incredibly strong against Mew, beating nearly all or all of its sets. The problem is though, that it doesn't have a true weakness to exploit, and doesn't have enough losing matchups.
This is why I am voting to Man Bew
wait uh
Ban Mew from Gen8 1v1
s/o like Nalei or somebody for helping me see Band Lax for what it is.
I have played 1v1 almost non-stop since gen 8 dropped so I feel I have quite a solid grasp on the metagame, I also got reqs p quickly. It has already been established the reason Mew is being suspected is not due to its Imprison set but due to its versatility that complements the Imprison set. This is why I believe Mew is not ban-worthy.
Mew has four moveslots and one item slot.
It cannot run every set at once and most of its choice variants are not great outside of checking what they’re supposed to. The Imprison set also has its issue. Drop sub? Lose to slower sub mons and CB Rhyperior. Drop Taunt? Lose to Corv and Taunt Whimsi. Drop Magic Room? Lose to trick mons.
And so on and so fourth. Things also hard check Mew regardless of set. Goliscopod, Durant, sub Dragapult, and Mimikyu. Yes running a berry is an option but it means you in turn lose aganist stuff you could’ve beat w/ Herb or Sitrus. Mew is stretched widely enough that cracks seep through. I do not believe Mew is an unhealthy presence in the 1v1 metagame. I will be voting Don’t Ban
None of these are hard mew counters. Protect mew is run for Golisopod, scarf for durant and dragapult, and mimikyu can be beaten by sub imprison transform, and you need to run Choice Scarf Mimikyu in order to beat Mew 100% (although someone correct me if I'm wrong and theres a mew set that beats that).
Saying mew is stretched thin ignores the point of running Mew in the first place: its supposed to be an extremely splashable Pokemon that can be put on any combination of 2 mons to essentially make it a workable team. It can be crafted however a player wants it to be and still be amazing at beating either a majority or plurality of the metagame. While imprison transform and all its variations are the worst offender of its splashability, the fact that mew can run 3 different Choice Items in order to basically beat the rest of the metagame that can beat imprison transform is what makes it unacceptable.
It would be different if only 1 or 2 Pokemon could be beaten by a variant of Mew, like if Protect sub imprison Mew had to sacrifice most of its matchups just to lure in and beat Golisipod, then your argument would have merit, but thats just simply not true. Each variant is going to be beating 50% or more of the metagame at large, regardless of which specific variant you are running, which in turn will make predicting Mew in battle based on team composition essentially impossible. Players have to comb through replays of players or guess in order to play correctly against a Mew. In tournaments, where people craft several new teams specifically for this, it will be a nightmare.
I have played 1v1 almost non-stop since gen 8 dropped so I feel I have quite a solid grasp on the metagame, I also got reqs p quickly. It has already been established the reason Mew is being suspected is not due to its Imprison set but due to its versatility that complements the Imprison set. This is why I believe Mew is not ban-worthy.
Mew has four moveslots and one item slot.
It cannot run every set at once and most of its choice variants are not great outside of checking what they’re supposed to. The Imprison set also has its issue. Drop sub? Lose to slower sub mons and CB Rhyperior. Drop Taunt? Lose to Corv and Taunt Whimsi. Drop Magic Room? Lose to trick mons.
And so on and so fourth. Things also hard check Mew regardless of set. Goliscopod, Durant, sub Dragapult, and Mimikyu. Yes running a berry is an option but it means you in turn lose aganist stuff you could’ve beat w/ Herb or Sitrus. Mew is stretched widely enough that cracks seep through. I do not believe Mew is an unhealthy presence in the 1v1 metagame. I will be voting Don’t Ban
I'd like to counter this with the fact that Mew can 50/50 Trick users by simply Transforming right away. Additionally, powerful choice attackers like Dracovish, Hydreigon, Rhyperior, Tyranitar, Bewear, etc all need to be wary of a turn 1 Transform for similar reasons, as a Transform into a resisted attack will mean that Mew has a massive edge, and vice versa if Mew doesn't Transform immediately while they predict that it does.
On top of this, Choice Band alone offers to cover near everything that beats Imprisonform by means of Mew's bountiful coverage, such to the extent that the onus for "beating" Mew is often placed solely on predicting which of the two sets it's running, as effectively nothing reliably covers both of these sets beyond the likes of Life Orb Shadow Claw + Sneak Mimikyu, Sub Liechi Cinderace (Rock Blast isn't used), 252+ Life Orb/CB First Impression Golisopod, Durant, and Gengar.
When it comes to debates like these, hyper niche sets like Kasib Berry Mew and Electric Seed Tapu Koko should effectively be ignored imo, with the focus instead being placed on the main bulk of the Pokemon that's causing problems in the first place.
This set is just cheese. If we can ban the set (any combination of transform and imprison) that would be nice. banning Mew? a bit more questionable but I would be fine with that, and maybe support it if Mew sets were still too op after the ban
This set is just cheese. If we can ban the set (any combination of transform and imprison) that would be nice. banning Mew? a bit more questionable but I would be fine with that.
I don't spend much time in the Forums so I wasn't sure why no one was bringing it up, but that makes sense
if it is impossible to have a complex ban for this, I would be good with a total Mew ban
I built a ladder team just for the suspect. Started with BandSawk because people say it's good and added Sylveon because I like the mon. Kasib Mew is great because you can lure in Ghost-types (that don't outspeed you) with it before Mew is banned and hopefully get reqs doing that.
Premises
The Mew ban will re-set a precedent, and I want to state the premises of my argument for future debates:
A Pokemon should be banned when it reduces the skill component too much.
Both "skill" and "too much" are subjective.
The definition of broken is that a Pokemon is too good relative to the rest of the metagame.
Uncompetitive means a mechanic prevents choice from influencing outcome too much.
It's a common misconception that uncompetitiveness only relates to RNG.
A Pokemon that has too much versatility and effectiveness is broken and uncompetitive.
Broken because it puts a player who has it at too much of an advantage.
Uncompetitive because a few checks and counters, and mindgames are required to consistently defeat it, regardless of player choice.
Versatility means that a Pokemon has many options and, most importantly, that those options are used a lot, without too much opportunity cost.
Effectiveness means that a Pokemon's sets are good or at least decent relative to the rest of the metagame.
Parody by Eriey. Edited by me without substantial content changes. Parodied song here (on YouTube) by Elo Bandit.
I miss the old Mew–
Z-Move or stall Mew–
The balanced wall Mew–
Fun overall Mew–
I hate the new Mew–
Annoying move Mew–
What can I do, Mew–
Imprison you, Mew–
I miss the fair Mew–
Sets you could beat Mew–
I've got to say that back in SM I'd want to share Mew–
What if Mew played 1v1 against another Mew?–
Which Mew would Imprison first; man, that'd be so Mew!–
Beating you is such a chore, Mew–
You were so great before, Mew–
That's why nobody adores you anymore, Mew–
HA!
I'll be voting ban on Mew. I think the unpredictability of Mew is overwhelming, especially when each set doesn't give much up. Compared to Dragonite, where niche sets like Firium Dragonite would have to give up something huge and lose lots of matchups, the variants of Imprison Mew don't give up much since they all use the same gimmick, just chosing what ELSE you want to beat. Add that to Band and Specs Mew, and you got a monster that's super hard to figure out on preview.
The Colbur and Tanga Berries have fallen out of favor, as they are no longer recorded with their own count in the statistics. Mew's niche sets are becoming more and more common, with Choice sets in particularly high usage. Choice Scarf is the most used non-niche set. Combined, these four most common niche sets would be between #5 and #6 most common Pokemon (Cinderace and Arcanine, respectively).
Since I came one game short of getting reqs and likely won't get them, I decided to share my thoughts on Mew. Imprison-Transform is an incredibly potent combination and unlike Smeargle from Gen 7, Mew has good defenses and speed to back it up. Imprison-Transform Mew has a small number of answers. Many of these can be countered by running different items or moves or even ditching Imprison to run a decent Band or Specs set. Overall, Mew is a broken Pokémon in the current meta.
