I say keep as magnet rise electrium z combination is run on Magnezone and Klinklang not just for the evasion but also because they run other electric moves (Thunder/Zap Cannon in the case for Magnezone and Wild Charge in the case of Klinklang) and most other sets are usually not the main set of that mon or the mon is really just a niche meme. Also, I personally don't often get screwed over or get an extra victory from Z evasion at all. People do run moves that don't miss (Smart Strike Kartana and the utter plethora of Z moves everywhere) and also it is only +1 evasion that can't go any further unless you use Snow Cloak or Sand Veil. Overall, it has, at least in my opinion, a negligible effect on matchups that rarely ever works so banning it would be silly as then viable sets like the aforementioned Magnezone and Klinklang would suffer as they can't run Z electric moves with Magnet Rise, which has use outside of evasion boosting.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
1v1 Suspect Poll: Z-Detect
- Thread starter The Official Glyx
- Start date
- Status
Tbh there is more broken things that should rather be banned or suspected than zevasion(in which I feel this is only being suspected bcuz of the ppl who either couldn't beat it or find it annoying). Has zevasion isn't even a huge boost in evasion banning would just make 1v1 boring to me (though I don't depend on zevasion and have other sets I do find it fun to use)
Please take a look up to this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-826178797
The Official Glyx
Banned deucer.
We'll cross that bridge if necessary, though for the time being, it has a much less distinct effect on battles than boosting Evasion.
Not everything is black and white when it comes to bans. There are different tiers of being uncompetitive much like there are different tiers of Pokemon viability. At the time, the council simply felt that Jirachi's uncompetitive level was too high, and as such, they banned it. For the time being, we'll have to let it be and focus on what is before us, which is the Z-Evasion hole that continues to be dug deeper.
Giving yourself a chance to lose != Giving yourself a chance to win. Matters of RNG only become an issue when their impact weighs heavily on a vast majority of scenarios, hence why inaccurate (non-OHKO) moves are never included in defining what it means for something to be uncompetitive, since they can only ever create issues with RNG in a select few very specific cases, such as Magnezone needing to hit a Zap Cannon to 2hko Charizard-X, but not needing to do that for very much else at all, as opposed to how Evasion, Sleep, Serene Grace flinching, Swagger, OHKO moves, Perish Song, etc all affect nearly every matchup.
Here's hoping, dude.
If I'm being frank, this honestly should've been a poll on Z-Detect in particular, though the forces greater than me would rather have it be all Z-Evasion moves, so I hastily complied without a second thought. Z-Detect, as a priority move, makes just about every mon that uses it liable to become a dodging machine, whereas the other three Z-Evasion moves all require more strategy to them, as mons that use them all either need to be fast/bulky/have Prankster.
All that being said, for everyone who is suggesting that we have bigger issues to deal with: please stay patient as we try to work our way out of this mess that has been made. As a council, we currently need to come together in communicating our ideas, both with the community, and each other. The sooner we can fix something small like this, the sooner we can move on to the bigger things.
I apologize for all the inconvenience and confusion as of late, and hope that the next time I post, it will be for something that is universally agreed upon. In the meantime, please continue directing all of your hatred towards me, as I was the one who screwed up.
Smh osra you didnt screw anything up. Sorry for diverting the topic, and thanks for trying your best to help out the metagame.
Also, I know I have absolutely 0 rights in saying anything, and I have no idea what is actually happening, but from the point of view of an active community member, from the outside, the council looks like a mess. Idek what happening anymore.
Also, I know I have absolutely 0 rights in saying anything, and I have no idea what is actually happening, but from the point of view of an active community member, from the outside, the council looks like a mess. Idek what happening anymore.
Last edited:
Do not ban
I agree with everyone who says z-detect shouldn't be banned at all. It is not as big of a threat as everyone sees it as. First of all, it is a 1-time evasion boosting move so why should it be put with the likes of sand-attack, flash, and double team. The answer is, it shouldn't. It isn't repeatable so why should it get put with moves that are? On to my 2nd point, the pokemon who use this strat are extremely frail and can be OHKO'd by almost any good attacker in 1v1 (So most pokemon). If you can land a 75% accuracy move once and outspeed them, congratulations you beat z-detect. People are making it out to be such a big deal when all it requires is a OHKO and a outspeed. Onto my 3rd point, like AllFortyOne said, all z-move accuracies are 100%, making it easy to be able to beat it with a Z. That is why I am firmly on the side of Do Not Ban.
You sound like ryy, just land your shots. Lets do some math.
Assume you have less than 476 speed. You will now be outsped by a +1 Speed Boost yanmega. In order for him to roost, he has 5 chances for you to miss what is AT LEAST 75% accuracy on his substitutes. There is a 23% chance of this not happening. After this, if the 77% comes through, every 3 turns he needs you to miss at least one. You have a 43% chance of hitting all 3 of them.
Assuming 100% accuracy on a move that will one shot him (which it might not), you need to either hit the first 5 shots, or if you miss one, hit 3 consecutive shots. This probability is not very high.
And it is pure probability.
Uncompetetive
I didnt want to complete the math cuz im lazy, but according to PartMan/ryyjyywyy, the math equates to a ~75% chance to win as a detect user without Z moves. Thats.... balanced.
Last edited:
If it's 75% then how is it uncompetitive? That's solidly favorable odds to win, meaning that the competitive aspect of predicting the matchup isn't tarnished by substandard RNG
It does seem questionable in my opinion that this suspect is going to decide whether every evasion strategy no matter what is banned or if they're all allowed, rather than the worst and most viable strategy (Z-Detect).
The consequence of choosing to suspect every single one is that you will now have people who will be uninspired concerning/vote against banning Z-Evasion to save the accessibility to something like Magnezone with electrium and magnet rise.
Detect is the worst case offender of Z-Evasion, and it is the only move that deserves to be banned from that list. The user is protected from almost all damage and taunting while they set up the Z-Evasion, essentially starting the game with a +1 Evasion boost, which none of the other offenders share and which is why I personally want only Detect removed. Detect is also the only one of these moves that can be perfectly replaced by another move (Protect), keeping the main effect of Detect and cutting out the evasion boosting strategy. And Detect beats the 100% accuracy of Z-Moves by just using normal Detect. No other strategy should be removed, as the utility they provide is not defined by boosting Evasion. Letting principles guide the real world actions of what is or is not implemented without taking into account that the actual effectiveness of a strategy is not why a council exists, it exists to draw the line between reasonable removal of RNG and the complete butchering of a Pokemon metagame in order to delete RNG. If we wanted to blindly remove RNG no matter how minutely effective it was, it wouldn't require a council, just the ability to read if a move has a secondary effect or if it can miss.
The whole reason people were upset with the original quickban of Detect besides "Oh no my strategy is banned!1!!1!" (too bad) or "It's not that bad so we shouldn't care" (Z-Detect is the most used and most reliable evasion strategy, so no), it was mainly because of the lack of communication between leadership and the community. Setting the precedent of being able to quickban something without at least talking about it isn't indicative of good leadership. So, the solution isn't instead to double down and make what should've been a quick quickban into a full blown suspect, its just to talk about it. Which then happened after the quickban was reversed, but now y'all are just blowing this out of proportions in order to make this feel more complete or something. All this ever had to be was a quickban after some initial discussion. The people who would have complained about it would have no fuel to their fire
You guys as leaders should also know the difference between people clamoring about bad choices and people whining because they don't get what they want, and y'all need the confidence to implement public decisions without caring about the latter's backlash. Like when a government raises taxes because, if they don't do so, they will collapse, you're not supposed to be 100% liked and enjoyed by the community. You're just supposed to do your jobs, which people will always recognize as the right choice, given time.
Finally, this complete removal of Z-Evasion breaks the precedent y'all set about Serene Grace. There are many Serene Grace abusers that rely mostly on RNG to win, but Jirachi was by far the worst offender, at the time. So y'all banned Jirachi, but not Serene Grace, and not Togekiss. At the time, I was mad that everything that abused RNG in that manner wasn't banned, but after a while I realized that Jirachi was the main problem, and in banning just Jirachi the correct choice was made.
In conclusion,
- Quickban only Detect because its the only problematic and completely replaceable Z-evasion move, keep everything else because they are ineffective and would negatively affect strategies that don't rely entirely on RNG
- (For Council) Communicate more effectively with the people, recognize when people bring up legitimate points or if they're just trying to hide that they're mad that their brainless strategies have been banned.
Last edited:
Would it be feasible (as a coder and as a council member) to ban "using the Z-Evasion move in-battle" much like the way Rayquaza is not allowed to Mega Evolve in Ubers, because (strictly IMO) the problem comes into play only after usage, and not at team preview? The Immortal ( Just wanted your thoughts on this, coz sort of similar to "Rayquaza + DAscent not being the problem" but "Rayquaza mega evolving into MegaQuaza" being the problem in Ubers, the problem is not having FightZ+Detect(+some constructive fighting move which would lose out on not being able to have FightZ) , but using Z-Evasion in-battle )
dom
Banned deucer.
Yeah, as Mace said this poll is dogshit. There needs to be a way to not mindlessly agree the council is right when it comes to things like this.
I really like, do not understand the process behind z-evasion ban? It has had pretty much no effect on tour battles, or even ladder games above 1500. Z-Evasion is in no way a consistent strategy, and often doesn't beat literally anything reliably. Deos is the only user and it's not particuarly good at using it, opposing Z-Moves really go to town and irondefense+amnesia is just plain better.
Speaking of luck tho when will Jirachi be freed?
tldr: It just seems the council is creating problems that dont exist (z-detect deoxys was used 0.48% in october 1500 ladder) to distract from actually handling those other problems / controversial things on banlist or not on banlist
I really like, do not understand the process behind z-evasion ban? It has had pretty much no effect on tour battles, or even ladder games above 1500. Z-Evasion is in no way a consistent strategy, and often doesn't beat literally anything reliably. Deos is the only user and it's not particuarly good at using it, opposing Z-Moves really go to town and irondefense+amnesia is just plain better.
Speaking of luck tho when will Jirachi be freed?
tldr: It just seems the council is creating problems that dont exist (z-detect deoxys was used 0.48% in october 1500 ladder) to distract from actually handling those other problems / controversial things on banlist or not on banlist
Last edited:
Thanks for the input everyone! After further deliberation, the council has concluded that only Z-Detect is problematic at this point in time. A new poll has been created accordingly, which will run for three days.
To clarify, the combination of Detect + Fightinium Z will be quickbanned/suspected.
To clarify, the combination of Detect + Fightinium Z will be quickbanned/suspected.
The Official Glyx
Banned deucer.
To be even more clear, the poll at the top of this page has been changed! Not that a new one has been created. Be sure to cast your votes in accordance to such, and consider new discussion with specifically Z-Detect in mind.
That’s what we’re doing right now. Voting on banning specifically z detect
Honestly, I may not be the most qualified person in the world, but this poll doesn't make any sense for me. It's essentially letting people vote on it's ban (by voting for quickban) without getting it's suspect reqs, which in my opinion, isn't right. I'm personally on the fence (I know I made that deo-s post but opinions change alright). Why can't we strike a balance like every other metagame on this website and just suspect it, instead of swinging from one extreme to the other?
Z-Detect needs to go, and we would be wasting our time getting suspect reqs to get the same end result of ban. While Z-Detect can be a bit gimmicky and would not work in a 6v6 metagame since you can phaze it out, you cannot do this in 1v1. This can lead to missing a move and losing the game over some stupid evasion boost, and this would make me throw my computer to know that I won, but lost because of this shitty Z-Detect.
- Status