1v1 Suspect Poll: Z-Detect

[The Official Glyx]

Z-Detect
​

Z-Detect has become a bit of a controversial element, due to how it raises the user's Evasion stat. While there are other Z-Status moves that increase the user's Evasion, they are much less effective than Z-Detect in that they lack the priority of Detect, nor do they offer their users a free turn of protection from moves targeted against them.

While Z-Detect is a one-time boost that can only be gained through the consumption of the user's Fightinium Z, it has proven itself to be an issue in 1v1 with the fact that it effectively provides all of its users +1 Evasion from the immediate start of the battle all the way to the end of it.

This poll, though it usually wouldn't be necessary for a developed metagame like 1v1, is here to make up for the lack of communication between council and community that resulted in the quickban on Detect prior to this, and to provide users with the option to choose whether the controversial subject should be suspected or outright quickbanned, giving plenty of time for everyone to discuss without distraction.

Previous OP

Z-Evasion
As you may be aware, with the recent Detect controversy, Z-Detect and the other Z-Status moves that boost Evasion have come under the radar of 1v1's Council for a potential ban. The reasoning for this being that Evasion in general is just plain uncompetitive, even if it doesn't specifically violate the Evasion Clause. The main offender for this is Detect, being both a priority Evasion buff with its Z-effect, as well as a free turn of protection from damage. The reasoning why the other moves that boost Evasion with their Z-effects are being included in this move is to maintain consistency with similar bans, namely the ban on all accuracy dropping moves.

The moves that boost Evasion with their Z-Effects are:
Camouflage
Detect
Lucky Chant
Magnet Rise
Flash
Kinesis
Sand Attack
Smokescreen

The moves that lower accuracy have been crossed out, as they have already been banned. This leaves us with Camouflage, Detect, Lucky Chant, and Magnet Rise. Because Camouflage, Lucky Chant, and Magnet Rise mostly Magnet Rise all have notably viable use outside of boosting Evasion, an outright ban on the moves would not be feasible. The only alternative that doesn't require changes being made to Showdown is banning the use of each move in tandem with the corresponding Z-Crystal of their type, meaning we would be banning:
Camouflage + Normalium Z
Detect + Fightinium Z
Lucky Chant + Normalium Z
Magnet Rise + Electrium Z rip Magnezone/Klinklang

Due to the council remaining divided on whether or not Z-Evasion should be quickbanned vs suspect tested, we have made this poll to ask the community of players whether Z-Evasion should be Suspect Tested or outright banned. Though it does not affect the result of the poll, your votes will be made visible to others, so be sure to consider that when voting. This poll will be closed 5 days after being posted, so be sure to let your thoughts be heard within that time! Each option only needs a simple majority (51% or higher) of votes to be passed! Feel free to use this thread for discussion on Z-Evasion in the meantime.

edit: None of these moves are being suggested for a ban. If a ban were to go through it would only restrict Pokemon from being validated if and only if their setup consists of either Camouflage AND Normalium Z, Detect AND Fightinium Z, Lucky Chant AND Normalium Z, or Magnet Rise AND Electrium Z. You would still be able to use sets like Lucky Chant Audino, Camouflage Groundium Zygarde, Magnet Rise Ghostium Aegislash, etc. The only Pokemon that would be harmed by this are those that coincidentally happen to use the combination of move and item for non-Evasion boosting purposes, namely Magnet Rise Electrium Magnezone and Klinklang.

 

[supermonst]

ban

 

[pazza]

Dint ban bcz ut got me to 1900 and its fun to use and broken

 

[Dragonmirror]

Not sure if we are supposed to respond here but here I go.
Detect is the best z-evasion move by far. It is able to negate all damage taken that turn (most, if Z) and boost evasion.
Banning moves like camouflage would not effect the meta at all so that is basically irrelevant.
Magnet rise is where my main uh oh comes. Magnet rise is useful on quite a few mons (metagross, diancie, and magnezone to name a few) and banning this move would not be great for those mons.

That’s my ideas, but I’m also dumb as hell.

 

[rumia]

It's a shame that if the Z-Evasion moves were to be banned, the complexity of the ban might cripple some mons by getting rid of their versatility (mostly looking at Magnezone and Klinklang, as you mentioned), but it's a small price to pay when it comes to balancing out the meta. I personally don't mind either way, so I'm excited to see how this will turn out.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Not sure if we are supposed to respond here but here I go.
Detect is the best z-evasion move by far. It is able to negate all damage taken that turn (most, if Z) and boost evasion.
Banning moves like camouflage would not effect the meta at all so that is basically irrelevant.
Magnet rise is where my main uh oh comes. Magnet rise is useful on quite a few mons (metagross, diancie, and magnezone to name a few) and banning this move would not be great for those mons.

That’s my ideas, but I’m also dumb as hell.

The moves that lower accuracy have been crossed out, as they have already been banned. This leaves us with Camouflage, Detect, Lucky Chant, and Magnet Rise. Because Camouflage, Lucky Chant, and Magnet Rise mostly Magnet Rise all have notably viable use outside of boosting Evasion, an outright ban on the moves would not be feasible. The only alternative that doesn't require changes being made to Showdown is banning the use of each move in tandem with the corresponding Z-Crystal of their type, meaning we would be banning:
Camouflage + Normalium Z
Detect + Fightinium Z
Lucky Chant + Normalium Z
Magnet Rise + Electrium Z rip Magnezone/Klinklang

 

[Kowasabii]

Why I think Z-Evasion should not be banned.
First off I would like to say that three of the four of these moves have potentially viable strategies with z moves that don't use evasion. Detect is really the only one that relies on purely evasion which is why if there is a ban, it should just be on detect.

Banning these because they introduce chance into the game is a silly reason, just like with the Jirachi ban. The Jirachi ban I understand a bit more but this is just silly.

If the logic that these strategies give only a chance at winning and aren't reliable is giving a reason for suspect/ quick ban; shouldn't moves like focus blast, and hurricane also be suspected, as hey rely heavily on that chance that they hit? Same with Pokémon like Durant with hustle who rely on that chance to do a lot of damage.

A ban like this is silly, the especially for magnet rise as it is actually a very viable move.

Can we focus on real issues like banning sleep? Can we just ban sleep already and unban lax and darkrai.

 

[heavystorming]

Hello, 1vs1 community.

Dear 1vs1 council members, I appreciate you bringing this subject to our attention as z detect was quick banned at first without the opinions of everyone. First of all, I want to point out that ''uncompetitive'' shouldnt be a valid reason for banning those certain boost Evasion moves since only few pokemons including low tier/not viable mons can use these attacks and people are tryharding to make those mons viable. Which makes this strategy a perfect way of putting those uncompetitive mons into the meta game map.

Second of all, a lot of pokemons would get indirectly affected by this ban making some sets no longer viable like Mega Diance, Mega Metagros (both users of magnet rise), Articuno (z-detect), Zygarde (camouflage to change the type which is something I have been working for so long trying to find a new set). And the list of viable mons in the 1vs1 meta game is getting shorter and shorter making things monotonous, tedious or any other synonim that would fit to this word.

If I have a vote or a change to choose if baning these certain moves or not, i definetly would choose no.

Greetings,

HeavyStorming
Council Member of 1vs1 Unoficial Challenges
Member of 1vs1 Most Valued Set Builders

 

[The Official Glyx]

Second of all, a lot of pokemons would get indirectly affected by this ban making some sets no longer viable like Mega Diance, Mega Metagros (both users of magnet rise), Articuno (z-detect), Zygarde (camouflage to change the type which is something I have been working for so long trying to find a new set). And the list of viable mons in the 1vs1 meta game is getting shorter and shorter making things monotonous, tedious or any other synonim that would fit to this word.

The moves that lower accuracy have been crossed out, as they have already been banned. This leaves us with Camouflage, Detect, Lucky Chant, and Magnet Rise. Because Camouflage, Lucky Chant, and Magnet Rise mostly Magnet Rise all have notably viable use outside of boosting Evasion, an outright ban on the moves would not be feasible. The only alternative that doesn't require changes being made to Showdown is banning the use of each move in tandem with the corresponding Z-Crystal of their type, meaning we would be banning:
Camouflage + Normalium Z
Detect + Fightinium Z
Lucky Chant + Normalium Z
Magnet Rise + Electrium Z rip Magnezone/Klinklang

A ban on Z-Evasion moves would only mean banning the combination of the base move + its corresponding Z-Crystal. Neither Magnet Rise nor Electrium Z would be banned, just specifically the combination of Magnet Rise AND Electrium Z, meaning only Magnezone and Klinklang would really be affected by this, since they are two of the only Pokemon that would viably use Magnet Rise and Electrium Z at the same time.

 

[Kowasabii]

A ban on Z-Evasion moves would only mean banning the combination of the base move + its corresponding Z-Crystal. Neither Magnet Rise nor Electrium Z would be banned, just specifically the combination of Magnet Rise AND Electrium Z, meaning only Magnezone and Klinklang would really be affected by this, since they are two of the only Pokemon that would viably use Magnet Rise and Electrium Z at the same time.

I do like the idea of banning those z moves in correlation with those specific moves except for magnet rise. I think we shouldn't decrease the viability of those two Pokémon to eliminate the very slight "uncompetitive" viability.

 

[heavystorming]

A ban on Z-Evasion moves would only mean banning the combination of the base move + its corresponding Z-Crystal. Neither Magnet Rise nor Electrium Z would be banned, just specifically the combination of Magnet Rise AND Electrium Z, meaning only Magnezone and Klinklang would really be affected by this, since they are two of the only Pokemon that would viably use Magnet Rise and Electrium Z at the same time.

Thank you for your reply Osra. However, the combination of fightium z with detect is still needed for some mons that are uncompetitive which would make those sets viable. The overall problem with the ban of those combinations is that some mons will be sent straight to the never will be used again vault due to lack of viability. The meta game is quite dead and this will take things further. Z detect always have been there. Why is being suspected now? I already know the answer.

A very few population of 1vs1 getting annoyed by users of this technicque does not agree with with the idea of losing a match/elo due to rng or whatever controls evasion. And you do not see them laddering. i might not have enough information to defend this idea due to language barrier as spanish is my language. But I would have been more than happy to provide my reasearch and itemized detailed consecuences of this ban.

Any questions or concerns, just let me know.

HeavyStorming
Council Member of 1vs1 Unoficial Challenges
Member of 1vs1 Most Valued Set Builders

 

[Jamez]

Ban I hate getting haxed by this high ladder and losing elo, it’s uncompetitive and relies mainly on luck

 

[Elo Bandit]

Z-Detect is not uncompetitive to the point where it should be banned, as it does not rely more heavily on RNG to generate wins compared to similar strategies (sleep, flinch, and .9 evasion items).

Removing Detect strips viability from pokemon who use Z-Detect to generate wins a fair majority of the time.
Removing Camouflage "hurts" Zygarde but doesn't meaningfully reduce RNG in the metagame.
Removing Lucky Chant "hurts" Audino-Mega but doesn't meaningfully reduce RNG in the metagame.
Removing Magnet Rise hurts a multitude of pokemon, not limited to Metagross, Excadrill, etc. with no benefit.
Removing the combination of Magnet Rise + Electrium Z hurts Magnezone and Klingklang and doesn't meaningfully reduce RNG in the metagame.
Removing the combination of Detect + Fightinium Z is pointless as literally nothing runs Detect w/o Fightinium Z over Protect.

None of these moves should be banned. There is at least a case for a Detect ban. There is no case for banning any of the other moves listed, except to appear "consistent" on the topic of evasion.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Z-Detect is not uncompetitive to the point where it should be banned, as it does not rely more heavily on RNG to generate wins compared to similar strategies (sleep, flinch, and .9 evasion items).

Removing Detect strips viability from pokemon who use Z-Detect to generate wins a fair majority of the time.
Removing Camouflage "hurts" Zygarde but doesn't meaningfully reduce RNG in the metagame.
Removing Lucky Chant "hurts" Audino-Mega but doesn't meaningfully reduce RNG in the metagame.
Removing Magnet Rise hurts a multitude of pokemon, not limited to Metagross, Excadrill, etc. with no benefit.
Removing the combination of Magnet Rise + Electrium Z hurts Magnezone and Klingklang and doesn't meaningfully reduce RNG in the metagame.
Removing the combination of Detect + Fightinium Z is pointless as literally nothing runs Detect w/o Fightinium Z over Protect.

None of these moves should be banned. There is at least a case for a Detect ban. There is no case for banning any of the other moves listed, except to appear "consistent" on the topic of evasion.

edit: None of these moves are being suggested for a ban. If a ban were to go through it would only restrict Pokemon from being validated if and only if their setup consists of either Camouflage AND Normalium Z, Detect AND Fightinium Z, Lucky Chant AND Normalium Z, or Magnet Rise AND Electrium Z. You would still be able to use sets like Lucky Chant Audino, Camouflage Groundium Zygarde, Magnet Rise Ghostium Aegislash, etc. The only Pokemon that would be harmed by this are those that coincidentally happen to use the combination of move and item for non-Evasion boosting purposes, namely Magnet Rise Electrium Magnezone and Klinklang.

I have now edited the OP to make it more clear that none of the base moves would be banned if a ban were to come.

 

[Elo Bandit]

I have now edited the OP to make it more clear that none of the base moves would be banned if a ban were to come.

If a ban were to come, it should be a single move ban on Detect. There is no reason to create a complex ban that would achieve exactly the same thing; we should avoid banning combinations whenever possible or can we restrict Pokemon from being validated if their setup consists of Serene Grace + Choice Scarf

This should be a ban/no ban on the move Detect alone.

 

[Jameous]

ban plz thonks lmao

 

[The Official Glyx]

If a ban were to come, it should be a single move ban on Detect. There is no reason to create a complex ban that would achieve exactly the same thing; we should avoid banning combinations whenever possible or can we restrict Pokemon from being validated if their setup consists of Serene Grace + Choice Scarf

This should be a ban/no ban on the move Detect alone.

The ideal solution would be to ban specifically Z-Camouflage, Z-Detect, Z-Lucky Chant, and Z-Magnet Rise, but that would require getting the coders to add Z-Status moves as physical entities that can be located in the teambuilder, and since one of the coders themselves is electing this move + crystal ban, I'm assuming that having them code Z-Status moves into Showdown is off the table.

 

[Camden]

I thought the whole reason Detect was the target is because Z-Detect was a virtually free evasion boost. The other methods all leave you 100% open to being assblasted by a powerful hit. Also banning the elec-z + mag rise combo is a fucking bummer to mag. Obviously I'd prefer a suspect to a quickban, but I'm not sure if anything other than Detect would warrant this at all.

 

[Elo Bandit]

The ideal solution would be to ban specifically Z-Camouflage, Z-Detect, Z-Lucky Chant, and Z-Magnet Rise

Banning Z-Camouflage, Z-Lucky Chant, and Z-Magnet Rise is not an ideal solution because it would hurt Magnezone and Klingklang without removing any significant RNG from gameplay.

Banning Z-Detect is effectively the exact same thing as banning Detect. Therefore, if the only potentially broken element of Z-Evasion is Z-Detect, a simple ban on Detect is the best solution. There is no need to code Z-moves into the game and there is no need to restrict the usage of similar moves (Camo, Chant, and Mag Rise).

 

[BigPimpin12]

Ban uwu

 

[aegii]

ban at least z-detect, because it's a free evasion boost that also helps the user avoid one turn of damage as well, especially the case where it's the first turn (thus avoiding fake out).

 

[Nalei]

This poll sucks. Where are the options for not banning/suspecting anything or banning/suspecting exclusively Detect???

 

[Dragonmirror]

Honestly, if you guys seriously consider banning z evasion moves then these are thugs you should consider suspecting as well.

1. Bright Powder
Basically a worse version of z detect but it’s still uncompetitive by definition
2. Togekiss/other serene grace or flinch abusers
This is one of the dumbest things that is on 1v1. I find it super confusing why rachi was banned but togekiss (and sawsbuck??) are not. Make sure you understand I said abusers, for this should not include meloetta.
3. Banning <70% acc moves.
>hit or miss, I bet you never miss huh
Anyways, if you want to ban luck based interactions, why not zap cannon? The reason I put the cap on 70 is because this allows moves like thunder, blizzard, focus miss, and hurricane to be used as they do give some mons extra viability

And last but not least
4. Sleep
This is a topic of many debates in the 1v1 chatroom with many different strong opinions. Whether you hit a mon with 1.33x evasion is frustrating, and frankly luck. Whether you get flinched or not is frustrating, and frankly luck. Whether you hit zap cannon is frustrating, and frankly luck. But nothing is more luck based in this meta game than sleep. Ugh.. sleep. Y’all have heard the argument, I’m not gonna respost, but these are definitely things that the council should consider first, and if not before, then very soon.

Thanks

 

[Morgan]

for this should not include meloetta.

Have you seen Snore Meloetta? It's definitely an abuser of flinches. Meloetta should be grouped in over sawsbuck if we want to go that route (Woops I'm getting off topic)

Also Very Much Keep Z-Evasion
1. The Accuracy of Z-Moves is Perfect
- Most Pokemon run Z Moves
2. The only "abusers" of Z-Evasion are either niche sets, or Deoxys-S, who has better, more consistent stall sets, also this is at 14% usage, ergo not particularly common. The other Pokemon that use detect are niche sets such as Sceptile, Articuno, Yanma, Zapdos
3. Z-Evasion is by definition not uncompetitive on nearly every Pokemon that uses it. Uncompetitive would mean that the matchup is left up to unfavorable RNG for the user, as a win would take detract from the statistical pattern of the matchup, ergo nullifying the competitive aspect of prediction. The only Pokemon who would fit this definition is Deoxys-Speed (and maybe riolu), as most Pokemon that have a way to beat Zapdos, Articuno, Sceptile, or Yanma, can do so regardless of detect. Deoxys-Speed in my opinion has become this sort of boogey-man, used to justify odd arguments. One Pokemon shouldn't be the reason for the ban of a class of Status Z-Moves, especially not when its not just the move, but combination of Z-Crystal and move that would be banned. This would unfairly harm Pokemon such as Xurkitree, Klinklang, Magnezone, Magneton, Togekiss, (Minun), and Zygarde, that aren't abusers. At a maximum, I would support a ban on solely detect.


Also Dragonmirror27262 Kowasabii can we keep this about Z-Evasion and not bring up sleep.

 

[Dragonmirror]

Have you seen Snore Meloetta? It's definitely an abuser of flinches. Meloetta should be grouped in over sawsbuck if we want to go that route (Woops I'm getting off topic)

Also Very Much Keep Z-Evasion
1. The Accuracy of Z-Moves is Perfect
- Most Pokemon run Z Moves
2. The only "abusers" of Z-Evasion are either niche sets, or Deoxys-S, who has better, more consistent stall sets, also this is at 14% usage, ergo not particularly common. The other Pokemon that use detect are niche sets such as Sceptile, Articuno, Yanma, Zapdos
3. Z-Evasion is by definition not uncompetitive on nearly every Pokemon that uses it. Uncompetitive would mean that the matchup is left up to unfavorable RNG for the user, as a win would take detract from the statistical pattern of the matchup, ergo nullifying the competitive aspect of prediction. The only Pokemon who would fit this definition is Deoxys-Speed (and maybe riolu), as most Pokemon that have a way to beat Zapdos, Articuno, Sceptile, or Yanma, can do so regardless of detect. Deoxys-Speed in my opinion has become this sort of boogey-man, used to justify odd arguments. One Pokemon shouldn't be the reason for the ban of a class of Status Z-Moves, especially not when its not just the move, but combination of Z-Crystal and move that would be banned. This would unfairly harm Pokemon such as Xurkitree, Klinklang, Magnezone, Magneton, Togekiss, (Minun), and Zygarde, that aren't abusers. At a maximum, I would support a ban on solely detect.


Also Dragonmirror27262 Kowasabii can we keep this about Z-Evasion and not bring up sleep.

The priorities of the council are bad. First a qb, thanks for undoing hat and asking the community. But listen to what their priorities are. Recently there was a poll, and on it there was ban Dragoniye, unban rachi, unban kyub, ban sgrace. The most popular ban request is sleep, and I have never (on my 10-15 hours in the room every day) have seen someone ask for a dragoniye ban. As mace said

This poll sucks. Where are the options for not banning/suspecting anything or banning/suspecting exclusively Detect???

Z evasion is far from the most “broken” or “luck based” thing in the Meya game, and if the argument is to ban that, then there are other Hing’s we should consider first.