2/3 stage evolution metagame =)

Bologo

Bologo

Have fun with birds and bees.
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Ok, so I'm obviously someone who likes weird-ish kinds of metagames, and I did the level-up only thread as well, so that proves that point.

Ok, so the metagame this time is the 2/3 stage evolution metagame.

This means that you're only able to use things that are the 2nd stage of an evolution but are not fully evolved yet. Eg. In the Beedrill line, Kakuna would be the 2/3 stage.

The eligible pokemon would be:

Bold = Was fully evolved in past generations, but received new evolutions to make is a 2/3 stage evo (I'm even putting it bold if they changed from something like RBY --> GSC)


1st Gen

Ivysaur
Charmeleon
Wartortle
Metapod
Kakuna
Pidgeotto
Pikachu
Nidorina
Nidorino
Clefairy
Jigglypuff
Golbat
Gloom
Poliwhirl
Kadabra
Machoke
Weepinbell
Graveler
Magneton
Haunter
Rhydon
Chansey
Seadra
Electabuzz
Magmar
Dragonair

2nd Gen

Bayleef
Quilava
Croconaw
Togetic
Flaaffy
Marill
Skiploom
Piloswine
Porygon2
Pupitar

3rd Gen

Grovyle
Combusken
Marshtomp
Silcoon
Cascoon
Lombre
Nuzleaf
Kirlia
Vigoroth
Loudred
Lairon
Roselia
Vibrava
Dusclops
Sealeo
Shelgon
Metang

4th Gen

Grotle
Monferno
Prinplup
Staravia
Luxio
Gabite

Yes, that's only 59 pokemon that are eligible, but that doesn't matter, even though most are from the 1st generation.

Ok, so obviously the previously fully evolved pokemon like Rhydon are going to be killer in this metagame.

I have a feeling that Chansey would be used as the key special wall, and you'd probably see Kadabra or Haunter as Special sweepers.

Let's discuss some movesets and pokemon that would be good in this metagame. [PS. Don't mention Kakuna w/Harden and Poison Sting, we all know it would dominate. =)]
 
Well, Vigoroth came to mind, as he was usable back in Advanced, with Endure and both, Reversal and Flail. Something like this would be very frightening:

Vigoroth @ Salac Berry
Vital Spirit
Adamant (+Atk, -Satk)
-Flail
-Reversal
-Endure
-Shadow Claw
EVs: 6 Hp/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spd

I suppose that the threat of Sandstorm is close to zero in this metagame, leaving priority moves as the sole counter to stop this beast on its tracks.

Now, I do not know about you guys, but I suspect that pokes like Dusclops and Porygon2 are gonna be just too broken in this metagame. Oh, and the terror of facing Silcoon is just too much to bear.
 
Kadabra just rapes everything besides Chansey and maybe Porygon2. With Hidden Power Fire for Magneton, everything gets at least 2HKOed by him.
 
Dusclops gets Shadow Sneak, a good little counter for Kadabra, so there are a couple of "walls" that are useable. This seems novelty at best..all the "
standard" pokemon would fall into the UU category anyway =/
 
I wouldn't overestimate Kadabra too much . Dusclops can still wall as well as he did in advance, and be a nice threat against Kadabra. Metang can come in handy with his 4x resist to psychic. However, not many things can come in safely on a Specskadabra. Team builders will have to keep him in mind always.

On other news, Belly Drum Charmeleon (A.K.A. Bellymeleon) is also usable and dangerous here. He no longer takes 50% damage from Stealth Rocks, although he now has an Earth weakness. However, he's still fast enough to warrant a set, and deadly if set up correctly. He does not get Earthquake, but there's no Heatran to wall the Fire/Dragon combo.

Talking about Stealth Rocks, I noticed that the only Rapid Spinner out there is Wartortle. There are 13 weak to SR, only 7 who can resist, and the rest take neutral. Taking that into consideration, I suspect that almost every team will be carring SR now.
 
Another interesting note: I'm pretty sure Roselia is the only one who can set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes here, so Stealth Rock is the ONLY real danger. Seeing as Wartortle takes neutral damage, he makes an okay Spinner, not as if you have a choice.
 
Adding a few random thoughts to the list...

Bologo said:
1st Gen

Charmeleon (Belly Drum FTW)
Wartortle (Rapid Spin FTW)
Pikachu (Light Ball FTW)
Golbat (No need to explain the bolded ones)
Poliwhirl (Faster than Poliwrath, and a decent movepool)
Kadabra (Excellent Speed and Special Attack, even with no evo)
Machoke (A solid Fighting type. Not too mnay options in that regard)
Graveler (Heck, he made BL in RBY tiers around here!)
Magneton
Haunter (Like Kadabra, but cooler looking)
Rhydon
Chansey
Seadra
Electabuzz
Magmar
Dragonair (Pure Dragons!)

2nd Gen

Togetic
Piloswine
Porygon2
Pupitar (A personal favorite of mine, Pupitar has definite potential with Dragon Dance plus STAB EQ/Stone Edge or Rock Slide)

3rd Gen

Vigoroth (Endrevver FTW)
Lairon (Even before evolving, he's got a sky-high defense. Just keep him away from Earthquake and Fighting moves)
Dusclops
Shelgon (His Defense is a bit higher than Salamence, and he lacks Sala's quad weakness)
Metang (x4 Psychic resist is a nice thing to have)

4th Gen

Gabite (I'm just banking on the tradition of 600 base stat Pokemon's younger selves being fairly good on their own)
Click to expand...

I've trimmed the list down to only the Pokemon I think would be top-tier in this metagame. I'm no expert, though. >.>

Really, this is very similar to the NFE/UE metagame, which I had a team for in RSE. Include all unevolved Pokemon and you get folks like Scyther, Trapinch, Sneasel, Murkrow, and Munchlax in on the action, and those guys are pretty good considering what they are.
 
I think that this would be an awesome metagame. Especially for my friend who doesn't like the pure power and over the topness of the current metagame for new players. He likes to battle, but not like most of us on smogon. Anyways, I think that most pokemon would do well in this metagame. No x4 weakness to Ice Beam for Dragonair. That is always a plus for me. 8)
 
This actually sounds like it would be a really fun metagame. It might add more depth and variety to it if it were first and second stage pokemon though (barring pokemon that don't evolve).
 
Bologo said:
Ivysaur More stable Roselia, I suppose.
Charmeleon Swords Dance set? Belly Drum would also work.
Wartortle Really not that good.
Metapod lol
Kakuna lol
Pidgeotto Use Staravia.
Pikachu Light Ball sweeping.
Nidorina Big movepool, can probably pull off something.
Nidorino Same as above.
Clefairy Rather inferior.
Jigglypuff Rather inferior.
Golbat Could be a decent sleeper and attacker.
Gloom Use Ivysaur or Roselia.
Poliwhirl Belly Drum.
Kadabra Absolutely owns this metagame. I mean, its Special Attack is only slightly less than Azelf's. Also fastest Pokemon here.
Machoke Good physical attacker.
Weepinbell Use Ivysaur or Roselia.
Graveler Use Rhydon.
Magneton Ties Kadabra for Special Attack. That's got to count for something.
Haunter Decent movepool, fast, powerful.
Rhydon This thing didn't need to evolve.
Chansey Chansey would be standard if Blissey were out of the picture.
Seadra Not really great.
Electabuzz Varied movepool, ties Kadabra in speed.
Magmar Varied movepool, etc.
Dragonair Gogogo Dragon Dance/Outrage/Waterfall/filler.
Bayleef Bleh, decent defenses.
Quilava Bleh, use Charmeleon.
Croconaw No Gyarados for competition is good.
Togetic Still not great.
Flaaffy Use Pikachu.
Marill Huge Power could come in handy.
Skiploom Use another Grass.
Piloswine Decent CBer.
Porygon2 Are you kidding me? Something like this can compete in standards.
Pupitar Dragon Dance/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Filler. Its Earthquake is stronger than Tyranitar's due to STAB. Still, go with Rhydon.
Grovyle Okay, I suppose.
Combusken Decent attacker, still needs to compete with Monferno.
Marshtomp Decent water type.
Silcoon lol
Cascoon lol
Lombre Decent. There are too many Grass types.
Nuzleaf Nasty Plot?
Kirlia Very weak stats.
Vigoroth Decent CBer.
Loudred Decent mixed attacker.
Lairon Very good Defense plus lack of Earthquake is good.
Roselia Very nice special attacker and statuser.
Vibrava Poor stats. Use Gabite.
Dusclops Why did this evolve.
Sealeo Not great.
Shelgon Dragon Dance/Dragon Claw/other moves. Nice movepool, nice stats, nice NFE.
Metang Yay MM hax.
Grotle Decent...
Monferno Nasty Plot/Flamethrower/Grass Knot/Close Combat, Swords Dance/Flare Blitz/Close Combat/Thunderpunch, Nasty Plot/Flamethrower/Grass Knot/Focus Blast, need more?
Prinplup The only reason to use Empoleon is Steel typing. No Steel, no way.
Staravia Lack of Close Combat hurts, but still a sizeable threat.
Luxio Decent CBer.
Gabite Great CBer with good Attack and Speed.
Click to expand...

Also, I recommend that Kadabra, Rhydon, Chansey, Dusclops, Porygon2, Haunter, Electabuzz, Magmar and perhaps Pikachu be banned.
 
Ya, although many do not learn moves that their fully evolved version do. So sad...

Now, I twas thinking that Quilava could see some use as he can still use Scarfed Eruptions. That's certainly something to fear.

Quilava @ Choice Scarf
Blaze
Mild (+Satk, -Def)
-Eruption
-Focus Punch
-Hidden Power [Grass]
-Overheat
EVs: 134 Atk/ 124 Spd/ 252 Satk

No Focus Blast hurts, but Focus Punch should make up for that, right? Anyways, the point is, Quilava is a completely different thing than Charmeleon or Monferno. Simply because of Eruption, I could see some use in standard play in this metagame.
 
I know that I'd play this metagame in a heartbeat, just to use Quilava and Dragonair. Any opinion on the viability of DD-Outrage Dragonair?
 
These metagames are fun when you play for shits and giggles and use something like Ivysaur or Kirlia, but when you start thinking and planning everything it gets all standardized which takes the fun away. Not to mention shit like Chansey and Electabuzz and Rhydon completely nuke everything, along with those old school things that you trade to evolve (Machoke, Kadabra, Haunter, Graveler).

I'm surprised that the last gen only has six new 3-stage Pokemon, half of which are the obvious starters. Then again, it made a huge batch of old Pokemon middle-of-the-road ones.
 
IMO any pokemon that recieved evo's in different gens than from were their line originated from should not be allowed.

IE

Ryhorn line started in the 1st Gen. Ended in the 4th Gen. 2/3 Evo(Rhydon) should NOT be allowed.
 
So you're complaining about Jigglypuff and Clefairy... These decisions shouldn't be based on any such arbitrary standard; the Pokemon should be investigated before being banned.
 
Rhydon should be allowed, it's quad weaknesses are as exploitable as ever.

Edit: Forgot about happiny, can you blame me? My bad.
 
Sure, Rhydon has quad weaknesses, but it can and will be brought in, and once it's brought in, there is next to no safe switch into it.
 
Hmm, now that I look at the stats of the pokemon who would counter rhydon, It seems that chansey is the only safe switch in unless your predicting a NVE attack. Chansey with Grass Knot anyone?
 
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