Serious 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Who are your favorite candidates?

  • Kamala Harris

    Votes: 43 8.0%
  • Elizabeth Warren

    Votes: 99 18.4%
  • Julián Castro

    Votes: 16 3.0%
  • Pete Buttigieg

    Votes: 51 9.5%
  • Kirsten Gillibrand

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • John Delaney

    Votes: 9 1.7%
  • Tulsi Gabbard

    Votes: 63 11.7%
  • Bernie Sanders

    Votes: 338 62.9%
  • Amy Klobuchar

    Votes: 12 2.2%
  • Joe Biden

    Votes: 45 8.4%
  • Andrew Yang

    Votes: 112 20.9%
  • Cory Booker

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • Marianne Williamson

    Votes: 19 3.5%
  • Mike Bloomberg

    Votes: 12 2.2%

  • Total voters
    537

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I don't know who needs to hear this, but Democrats aren't "center right" (lol) by any stretch of the imagination. Center left is pretty spot on, especially considering the shift in the past few years. Believing they're anything-right just shows a blatant ignorance of international politics.

IMG_20200121_004036.jpg



Anyway, update on bhm statements:

 
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termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
I don't know who needs to hear this, but Democrats aren't "center right" (lol) by any stretch of the imagination. Center left is pretty spot on, especially considering the shift in the past few years. Believing they're anything-right just shows a blatant ignorance of international politics.

View attachment 221354


Anyway, update on bhm statements:

ok who made this chart and based on what because it really doesn't make a lot of sense, the dutch freedom party for example is basically painted as extremist here when they're no further to the right than the republican party (they just have a more anti-establishment image which makes bad political scientists believe they must be more extreme than any mainstream parties). right and left are frankly opaque terms that can be conceptualized in a lot of different ways so im sure that according to certain definitions and certain methodologies one could conclude that the democrats are "on the left" but as long as theyre a party that refuses to seriously challenge the status quo to the benefit of the disadvantaged i simply don't see how theyre on the left in any meaningful sense. and when i say "disadvantaged" i also mean: the people in the middle east whose lands are occupied and whose lives are taken by US(-funded) operations which are sustained by republicans and democrats alike, the victims of ICE which most mainstream democrats refuse to abolish, palestinians who practically live in an apartheid state thanks in large part to the bipartisan american support for israel, etc.

like i said, democratic politicians only position themselves to the left insofar it is politically expedient to do so. of course now they support gay rights, say black lives matter (as long as it's all empty platitude), and think health care is, like, totally important, but there is a difference between saying you care about social justice and shit because your voter base likes it and actually doing something about it because you believe in it. i am reminded of the words of Madam President Hillary Clinton: "america is great because america is good." for me, anyone who has the balls to say this kind of thing about a country whose system is so obviously unjust, whose system kills people both at home and abroad through violence and neglect, to me demonstrates that they are not seriously interested in fighting for the betterment of the oppressed and marginalized. and yet, i could see most people running for president right now say it with a straight face. so no, by any metric i would consider actually valuable, the democrats are not at all "left of center" in any meaningful way.
 
Question, I remember reading that more than half of Sanders' supporters wouldn't support the DNC if Sanders won't get the nomination, underhanded means or not, how much of it is true? Would you still vote the Dem candidate if say, Biden or a last minute entry Hillary Clinton would end up going against Trump?
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Question, I remember reading that more than half of Sanders' supporters wouldn't support the DNC if Sanders won't get the nomination, underhanded means or not, how much of it is true? Would you still vote the Dem candidate if say, Biden or a last minute entry Hillary Clinton would end up going against Trump?
yes, the idea that Sanders voters didn't vote for hillary in 2016 is completely unfounded, the real question is if centrists will get behind a progressive if they win the nomination as is looking increasingly likely as Warren and Sanders sweep Iowa tomorrow.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Question, I remember reading that more than half of Sanders' supporters wouldn't support the DNC if Sanders won't get the nomination, underhanded means or not, how much of it is true? Would you still vote the Dem candidate if say, Biden or a last minute entry Hillary Clinton would end up going against Trump?
received_1454041438128953.jpeg


The poll shows 16% (not > 50%) of Sanders voters definitely won't vote for another candidate, and that 31% will only maybe vote for the nominee.

For reference, 25% of Sanders voters didn't vote for Hillary in 2016, so the 2020 number is pretty reasonable.

The other candidates' supporters seem committed to beating Trump.
 
I'm not voting Biden if he gets the nomination. Also I won't vote Trump ever.
I don't get this logic. If Biden wins the nomination, its going to be between Biden and Trump. Theres not going to be a third party; its a battle of lesser evils. Would you rather have Biden as your president or Trump as your president? As the 2016 election has shown us, inactivity in voting is essentially actively helping Trump.
 
I don't get this logic. If Biden wins the nomination, its going to be between Biden and Trump. Theres not going to be a third party; its a battle of lesser evils. Would you rather have Biden as your president or Trump as your president? As the 2016 election has shown us, inactivity in voting is essentially actively helping Trump.
I don't do lesser evil politics especially when in regards to foreign policy there's no lesser evil between those two options, both would perpetuate wars in the ME and continually fuck over Latin America
 

fanyfan

i once put 42 mcdonalds chicken nuggets in my anus
Question, I remember reading that more than half of Sanders' supporters wouldn't support the DNC if Sanders won't get the nomination, underhanded means or not, how much of it is true? Would you still vote the Dem candidate if say, Biden or a last minute entry Hillary Clinton would end up going against Trump?
I don’t know who needs to hear this, but as a brethren of the Bernard Brothers, please vote for whoever the democratic candidate is. I know, I don’t want to vote for Joe Biden either. However, if you care about improving people’s lives, which I hope left wing people care about, then Joe Biden is definitely the superior choice. Especially if you don’t want a conservative majority in the Supreme Court for the foreseeable future.

By that same token, I would urge any “Never Bernie” people to vote for him in the general. Once again, if you care about improving people’s lives and not having a majority conservative Supreme Court, Bernie is the much superior choice to Trump.

In other news, I’m nervous, but cautiously optimistic about Bernie’s chances in Iowa. It’s probably going to be real close between him and Biden either way, and they’ll both probably get close to the same number of delegates, but the media narrative will probably favor whoever wins. Bernie seems to be a lock to win New Hampshire so winning the first two states might help in building momentum for others. Fingers crossed.

As I was typing this, a post came that I want to respond to.
I don't do lesser evil politics especially when in regards to foreign policy there's no lesser evil between those two options, both would perpetuate wars in the ME and continually fuck over Latin America
Now, I want to preface this by saying I usually am a fan of your posts. However, I disagree with this take. Now, I agree Biden probably is gonna suck on foreign policy. However, Biden is definitely better than Trump in a few ways. I mentioned earlier the Supreme Court, that’s one. Biden’s healthcare plan, while not my preferred option, will cover more people than Trump. More people most likely will live as a result of his plan. Does it go far enough? No, but it’s an improvement. On climate change, Biden’s plan is at least a start, as opposed to Trump’s destroying any progress we’ve made. I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point. I urge you to reconsider your stance on this.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
12% voted for Trump. The rest voted 3rd party/write in, and a few % just didn't vote.

That's said, it isn't necessarily fair to attribute that to "tantrums". 2008 had similar numbers of general election defectors (in fact 9% of Obama primary voters flipped to McCain). Part of that is a natural result of conservatives/"true" independents voting in the Dem primary.


30% of Bernie's primary voters who switched to Trump were Republicans. And only ~40% at least leaned Dem (those are the ones we can potentially call tantrum votes). I think it's safe to say that the large majority of Bernie fans who voted e.g. Stein lived in blue states anyway, so their intentions weren't malicious.

The real shame is the ones who lived in swing States and voted Trump, and especially the ones who lived in swing States and voted 3rd party.

IMG_20200202_141908.jpg

And the Bernie -> 3rd party voters double that count.

I think the most notable part of the 2020 polling showing that only 50% of Sanders fans will definitely support the nominee is A) that number is way lower than in 2016, and B) the huge "it depends" bar implies that a large portion of those are self-described progressives who would prefer, say, Warren over Trump but not Biden. That's scary, especially when compared to how firmly anti-Trump the other candidates' bases are in that same poll. Granted, his base is smaller and more dedicated this time, but the stakes are also higher, and "I didn't know Trump would be so bad!" isn't a valid excuse anymore.
 
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Chou Toshio

Over9000
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I don't know who needs to hear this, but Democrats aren't "center right" (lol) by any stretch of the imagination. Center left is pretty spot on, especially considering the shift in the past few years. Believing they're anything-right just shows a blatant ignorance of international politics.

View attachment 221354


Anyway, update on bhm statements:

So this study says the Democrats are right of the Lib Dems in Britain that constantly side with Borris Johnson over Labour and who so many of their members have defected to the Tories. Sure, the Dems are center left. lololololololol
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Moral of the story, anger towards Bernie supporters in 2016 for not voting Hillary is mostly displaced. People can vote how they want, and the crossover/3rd party numbers were undeniably impactful, especially considering how obvious a danger Trump was, but they weren't too far off normal.

The real complaint should be that he and his supporters spent months after his mathematical viciously smearing his opponent and perpetuating obvious Russian/right wing propaganda (I was one of them, unfortunately. 18 year olds are dumb, though based on this thread I guess it takes some people until their late 20s...). It takes a whole lot of white dude ego for a wholly unaccomplished career politician to call perhaps the most qualified candidate ever "unqualified to be president" to her face on live TV.

It's unfortunate that the behavior has not only continued but intensified this cycle. His base overlaps heavily with the kinds of kids who send death threats to reality TV show contestants, and he does nothing to discourage it, because A) he's gotten addicted to the spotlight, and B) he knows the toxic fanaticism is the main thing driving his success. Such is the style of a die-hard populist.

If there's one thing I can commend him on, it's the brilliant marketing strategy that's allowed him to run by far the dirtiest campaign while letting his fans and surrogates take all of the heat. Bravo.
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
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I don’t know who needs to hear this, but as a brethren of the Bernard Brothers, please vote for whoever the democratic candidate is. I know, I don’t want to vote for Joe Biden either. However, if you care about improving people’s lives, which I hope left wing people care about, then Joe Biden is definitely the superior choice. Especially if you don’t want a conservative majority in the Supreme Court for the foreseeable future.

By that same token, I would urge any “Never Bernie” people to vote for him in the general. Once again, if you care about improving people’s lives and not having a majority conservative Supreme Court, Bernie is the much superior choice to Trump.

In other news, I’m nervous, but cautiously optimistic about Bernie’s chances in Iowa. It’s probably going to be real close between him and Biden either way, and they’ll both probably get close to the same number of delegates, but the media narrative will probably favor whoever wins. Bernie seems to be a lock to win New Hampshire so winning the first two states might help in building momentum for others. Fingers crossed.

As I was typing this, a post came that I want to respond to.

Now, I want to preface this by saying I usually am a fan of your posts. However, I disagree with this take. Now, I agree Biden probably is gonna suck on foreign policy. However, Biden is definitely better than Trump in a few ways. I mentioned earlier the Supreme Court, that’s one. Biden’s healthcare plan, while not my preferred option, will cover more people than Trump. More people most likely will live as a result of his plan. Does it go far enough? No, but it’s an improvement. On climate change, Biden’s plan is at least a start, as opposed to Trump’s destroying any progress we’ve made. I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point. I urge you to reconsider your stance on this.
I think what you're missing man is that so many of Bernie's voters were not Dem-aligned, Dem voters, or even registered to begin with. So it's fine for you, or Bernie, or whoever to say something about unity but logistically it's just not realistic. This is a low-turn out country by default, and without Bernie at the lead, it goes back to default-- no matter how much you try to voter shame the electorate, Bernie losing will massively take out voters from the game to Trump's favor. That's just the reality.

There's no sense in trying to shame the base because we know it doesn't work-- it's far better in my opinion, to make the Chapo Traphouse argument: Yeah, a lot of Bernie voters are not going to vote AT ALL if he loses. So fall in line if you want to win.

And if the DNC at all rigs this thing, or doesn't make Bernie the nominee even if he has plurality, expect the convention to be burnt to the ground. Expect the base to want to destroy the party, and an army of Yellow vests on the street. Really, that is the feeling of the party base, and I honestly think it needs to happen. Between 2016->Now, Bernie has strained against this and the movement has done everything it can to go along and get along; with the promise that we would go all out to win in 2020. But we're definitely at the breaking point; and not Bernie, not AOC, not Cornel West or Nina Turner or anyone can stop the base from going ape shit revolution if necessary. Good I say.

And no, I won't vote for Biden. Not for Warren either.
 
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Chou Toshio

Over9000
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This is not posturing. 2/3 of the working class doesn't vote, and Biden won't change that; voter shaming won't change that. If anything, Trump has a much better shot at getting those non-voters to vote. That's just simple fact of reality-- people do with it what they will.

If you don't want that to happen-- better canvass/phone bank/donate even harder for Bernie b/c this is the world we live in no matter how you try to shame one or two extra Berners in a Pokemon forum.
 
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Some of the comments in this thread do a phenomenal job corroborating the notion that American public education is criminally underfunded. The idea that a center-left Green party-kinda candidate in a global context (Sanders) is a communist is so mindbogglingly ignorant it skips 'plainly stupid' and goes right to 'redneck caricature' territory. Honestly, while yes education funding cuts do contribute to this kinda shit, there's also the fact that Google exists; you can type in "communism" into your browser and get a blurb about some basic principles at the very least. Seeing this level of ignorance makes me feel lucky my highschool offered a comprehensive comparative politics class that examines historically significant regimes like the USSR and the PRC. I hope that one day a comparative politics credit is required in highschools nationally; it'd do the world a looooot of good if the sole superpower's voter pool wasn't brimming with people only capable of thought on a gun-toting-hick level.

I love how "hey maybe we should have government health insurance like virtually every other developed country and maybe not contrivedly burden swathes of young people with crippling student debt and also not make the Earth uninhabitable for human beings" somehow prompts "OH MY GOD VENEZUELA THE SOVIET UNION IT NEVER WORKS" without fail every single fucking time. Sanders isn't even a good example of a socialist; his policies are all essentially all reformist. If you look at his workplace democracy plan, there is nothing about transitioning from private ownership to worker ownership of enterprise---the basis of socialism---it's all about strengthening the power of unions and combating the hierarchical and oligarchic nature of how capitalism organizes enterprise that way. Yeah, I know he calls himself a democratic socialist, but an actual DSA member or what have you would outflank Sanders economically 100%.

And this isn't to say that the best way to respond to "omg socialism bad it never works venezuela the PRC" is to cite than Sanders isn't actually a socialist---defending capitalism is an absurdly uphill battle for the poor soul who takes up the challenge, but it's important to note that these kinds of people are so profoundly ignorant they don't even understand where their opposition stands politically. I implore you to educate yourself on lefty economics ideas---Dr. Richard Wolff is the best orator on this in the context of the US (he is going to do a better job of explaining things than I could since I don't have a PhD in econ---I did write a big-ass post earlier you can check out, though)---but given the sub-middle school level of reading comprehension the "OMG VENEZUELA" people tend to have, I have little hope they'll sit through a 2 hour video that actually challenges their preconceptions.

Last thing: "worker owned enterprise" and its spirit have various interpretations in terms of substantive policy. State capitalism (USSR, PRC, what most people mean when they say "communist/communism") is one where the employer-employee undemocratic dichotomy remains in tact, but the employer is no longer a private entity---the immensely authoritarian nature of many regimes that employed this style would be the common evil. Reformist models like the Nordic countries are often considered "socialist"---socialism has an aim of destratifying class, which to an extent can be accomplished with reformist policies like hiking up the minimum wage, using highly progressive tax brackets, having an expansive social safety net, etc. Finally, worker co-ops (so a collective of private entities) owning enterprise is picking up interest (Dr. Wolff is a big proponent of this approach) and would be the most direct form of socialism of the three. It has limited experimentation to my knowledge.

edit: MikeDawg, you should probably read the post before you drop a like. I'm nowhere near being your ideological ally, and there is zero chance in hell any of what I just wrote resonates with your "woke centrist" alignment.
I mean you're one to talk man, you're saying the education system has failed us in an echo chamber of progressive (democratic-no difference) socialists and leftists that since maybe a bit ago has never heard virtually any diversity of opinion.

Yes, Bernie is a complete commie, and it takes a true virtuous idiot to lie to everyone about why he's not. He's the same guy that supported the Cuban revolution and Castro's rise to power under the false facade of the people rising up, alongside Venezuela's as well. This is the same guy that's frequented Russia to learn about the glories of communism in the 80s and 90s, been kicked out of a commune, and has been pushing to this day the nationalization of businesses and industries and taxing the living shit out of the rich for destined to fail socialized programs. His staffers are now even pushing for the re-education of conservatives, hey much like your comparison!

It takes a real patriot though to deny straight facts in the face though like the myth of nordic countries being socialist and ignoring virtually every other country socialism has been tried, so good on you for that! That in itself is the uphill battle that I bid you good luck on, forgetting capitalism that has lifted tens, hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Bernie is a straight lunatic commie, and you're not digging yourself out of that hole.
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
So this study says the Democrats are right of the Lib Dems in Britain that constantly side with Borris Johnson over Labour and who so many of their members have defected to the Tories. Sure, the Dems are center left. lololololololol
Yup, you nailed it. The problem isn't your interpretation of the plot, it's that you have an incredibly warped view of what constitutes "right" and "left" on the world stage. They aren't as far left as you and I would like, but they're incredibly so compared to the myriad of prominent right wing parties that we like to pretend don't exist.

Besides, comments like yours ignore the size of that American Dem circle. The Dem party is massive, and members range from left (Ocasio-Cortez) to firmly progressive (Ayanna Pressley, Barbara Lee) to center-right (Collin Peterson). If the US weren't a 2-party nation, they would be in different parties.

But it is, so they aren't. That's why it's silly to generalize (and especially demonize) the whole Dem party instead of individual members and sects. Plus, the party as a whole would be further left if we didn't have to compete with Republicans and decades of conservative propaganda.

Running moderates in conservative districts is a necessary evil if we want to, you know, accomplish anything (which I'm not sure anyone in this thread does). Every single candidate Bernie endorsed lost their race in 2018, and still moderate Dems were able to take back the House. If Republicans still controlled both chambers, it would be disastrous. It's bad enough that we have a conservative Supreme court for the next few decades.

Reasonable people realize that winning the presidency is a team sport. There are only two nominees. Why would either of them align with a group that only represents ~5% of the country? That's an extremely out-of-touch take.

If you want to support your particular flavor of candidate, you're free to do so in any of the dozens of local/state races that you have the ability to vote in. Most house primaries are decided by just a few hundred votes. 800 people was the margin that put a justice dem (Tlaib) in Congress.

Apart from actually getting involved, that's the best way to have your voice represented. Not ostracizing the only party who even slightly aligns with your views and letting your regressive opponents take control because you happen to disagree with a single nominee for one position.
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I mean you're one to talk man, you're saying the education system has failed us in an echo chamber of progressive (democratic-no difference) socialists and leftists that since maybe a bit ago has never heard virtually any diversity of opinion.

Yes, Bernie is a complete commie, and it takes a true virtuous idiot to lie to everyone about why he's not. He's the same guy that supported the Cuban revolution and Castro's rise to power under the false facade of the people rising up, alongside Venezuela's as well. This is the same guy that's frequented Russia to learn about the glories of communism in the 80s and 90s, been kicked out of a commune, and has been pushing to this day the nationalization of businesses and industries and taxing the living shit out of the rich for destined to fail socialized programs. His staffers are now even pushing for the re-education of conservatives, hey much like your comparison!

It takes a real patriot though to deny straight facts in the face though like the myth of nordic countries being socialist and ignoring virtually every other country socialism has been tried, so good on you for that! That in itself is the uphill battle that I bid you good luck on, forgetting capitalism that has lifted tens, hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Bernie is a straight lunatic commie, and you're not digging yourself out of that hole.
Please consider splitting up your comments by topic. I want to heart react the first half, but I have to laugh react the second half.
 
Why the fuck was my post replaced with one that was previously deleted....
This needs to be addressed, now. I've been noticing that certain posts 'vanish' without a notification of deletion for the past few weeks now, and its pretty clear that posts are being deleted under the ambiguous reasoning of "thats stupid". If you don't agree with Dece1t that's fine, but its clear that he put legitamite effort into the post.

But go ahead, keep deleting posts that don't conform to a specific narrative, that is precisely how communities turn into shit like r/the_donald.
 

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