Metagame 2v2 Doubles

[Felucia]

Originally created by Anty
Approved by The Immortal and Chloe

Banner by Rumplestiltskin
​

Welcome to 2v2 Doubles! In this metagame you play in the doubles format, but you battle with only 2 pokemon, and once those 2 pokemon faint the battle is over. You are allowed up to 4 pokemon in a team, but of course you only pick 2 of them at team preview.

The main difference from Doubles OU is the limitation to only 4 pokemon in a team and the further limitation of only being able to use 2 of them, and that there is no switching. These are simple changes that can have a massive impact on how the battles are played and what the metagame is about. For example you cant force an opposing pokemon out by moves such as Whirlwind as a counter-play to setup and you can't switch out if your pokemon has been debuffed and statused.


Rules
Mechanic: Bring 4 Pokemon at Team Preview, pick 2 to battle.
Clauses: Pokemon, Standard Doubles, Accuracy Moves Clause, Swagger Clause, Z-Move Clause, Sleep Clause Mod, Team Preview
Bans: Arceus, Dialga, Gengar-Mega, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Jirachi, Kangaskhan-Mega, Kyogre, Kyurem-White, Lugia, Lunala, Magearna, Marshadow, Mewtwo, Necrozma-Dawn-Wings, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Salamence-Mega, Snorlax, Solgaleo, Tapu Lele, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom, Power Construct, Eevium Z, Focus Sash, Dark Void, Final Gambit, Perish Song and Gravity + Sleep

Strategy
2v2 Doubles is a metagame rich with strategies as you can fully utilize everything Pokemon has to offer, meaning you can use stuff that has no use in singles formats, examples being the ability Healer and the move After You. Popular strategies involve the use of terrains, weather, Trick Room and more. If you already play 1v1, this metagame is relatively easy to get into since it has a similar concept, and 1v1 pokemon are very useful here. Putting 4 1v1 pokemon in a team is a good way to start, and then making changes as needed.

+

: Most famous example of a weather core is Venusaur and Mega Charizard Y. Both are great Pokemon under sun as the former can fire off boosted Fire-type attacks on the opponent with little drawback while the latter can abuse Chlorophyll and put to sleep threats with Sleep Powder.

: Another form of weather is Hail as it gives Ice-type Pokemon a perfectly accurate Blizzard which can hit both Pokemon the opposing field, plus with the recent introduction of Slush Rush, Hail might see more usage this generation.

: Fake out is extra worth it to use here as you can ensure that one of your pokemon doesn't get double targeted for a turn and to possibly deny a threat to do anything at all by making it flinch and taking it out with your other poke.

: Trick Room is an option that allows for additional strategies for slower pokes, though it comes with its risks considering the possibility of the TR setter getting KO'd trying to set it up.

Q&A
Q: 2v2? Does that mean you team up with another player and face 2 other players?
A: No. 2v2 refers to that it's 2 pokemon on each side of the field.

Resources

• Playability: playable on PokemonShowdown by challenge and through tournaments, which regularly take place in the other metas, tournaments, tours plaza, and 1v1 chat rooms. You can join the Discord server to get notified whenever there's a tournament on PokemonShowdown!
• Samples
• ORAS 2v2 Doubles
• Discord
• Doubles basics

Council
This metagame currently has a total of four council members:

UnleashOurPassion - Current Leader

Knuckstrike

Mubs21/Pokesartoolcay

Ransei

 

[Mubs]

Welcome to the 2v2 Doubles Resource Index​

This post is a Central Hub for the resources developed by the 2v2 Doubles Community. It includes the various projects and helpful links that will provide a means of proper participation in regards to this tier. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask on the 2v2 doubles discord server or in the 1v1 room. Below is an overlay of the Resources.

Thread Resources:
Viability Rankings
Sample Teams & Team Dump
2v2 Doubles Cores [WIP]
2v2 Doubles Sets [WIP]

Helpful Links:
Discord Server
1v1 Room
Sets Page

Projects:
Community CCAT / Teambuilding Workshop (Cycle 1)

Viability Rankings:
​

A+ Rank:

Kyurem-Black

Tapu Koko

Tapu Fini

Tyranitar-Mega

A Rank:

Mawile-Mega

Blastoise-Mega

Camerupt-Mega

Charizard-Mega-Y

Deoxys-A

Excadrill

Genesect

Kartana

Gyarados-Mega

Incineroar

Landorus-Therian

Lopunny-Mega

Metagross-Mega

Oranguru

Pelipper

Porygon-2

Swampert-Mega

Venusaur

Zeraora


A- Rank

Aerodactyl-Mega

Amoonguss

Banette-Mega

Celesteela

Clefairy

Diancie

Ferrothorn

Hoopa-Unbound

Kingdra

Naganadel

Raichu-Alola

Politoed

Scizor-Mega

Suicune

Tapu Bulu

Whimsicott

Volcanion

Volcarona

Zapdos

Zygarde

B+ Rank

Aegislash

Altaria-Mega

Arcanine

Blacephalon

Blaziken-Mega

Chansey

Charizard-Mega-X

Cresselia

Garchomp

Greninja

Hawlucha

Heatran

Latias-Mega

Latios-Mega

Mew

Primarina

Sceptile-Mega

Scrafty

Stakataka

Thundurus

Venusaur-Mega

Victini


B Rank

Abomasnow-Mega

Archeops

Azumarill

Bisharp

Dragonite

Dusclops

Entei

Gigalith

Hariyama

Lucario-Mega

Manectric-Mega

Medicham-Mega

Milotic

Mimikyu

Raikou

Rotom-Wash

Smeargle

Talonflame

B- Rank

Aggron-Mega

Dragalge

Gengar

Kommo-o

Mandibuzz

Marowak-Alola

Murkrow

Sableye-Mega

Sceptile

Steelix-Mega

Terrakion

Xurkitree

C Rank
Everything else

Viablity Rankings Nominations:

Noms

none yet!

 

[Mubs]

Sample Teams:​

• Clefairy HO by Kaif

Import

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 60 Atk / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Substitute
- Extreme Speed


Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Friend Guard
EVs: 156 HP / 156 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Follow Me
- Helping Hand
- Icy Wind
- Protect


Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Sacred Sword
- Smart Strike


Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Giga Drain
- Quiver Dance
- Protect

• Electric Terrain

Import

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Giga Drain
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Drain Punch

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Spe
- Wide Guard
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- King's Shield

• Trick Room

Import

Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fake Out
- Water Spout
- Aura Sphere
- Protect

Hoopa-Unbound @ Black Glasses
Ability: Magician
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 120 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hyperspace Fury
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Protect

Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Magma Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Oranguru @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 24 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Protect
- Instruct

• Volcanion Squad

Import

Volcanion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Heat Wave
- Steam Eruption
- Sludge Bomb

Zeraora @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Plasma Fists
- Substitute
- Iron Tail

Ferrothorn @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Atk / 140 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Protect
- Curse

Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 56 HP / 200 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Protect

• KokoGastro Offense by Poison Adhesive

import

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sky Drop
- Rock Slide
- Protect
- Taunt

Gastrodon-East @ Rindo Berry
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 36 SpA / 136 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Protect

Incineroar @ Figy Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Atk / 136 Def / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- Snarl

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Team Dump Please keep in mind that the quality of such teams are not guaranteed.

Respitory

Trick Room Utilizing Fear Togedamaru By Brisk 2
Knuckstrike's World cup Team Dump
Kaif's World Cup Team Dump
Mubs21/Pokesartoolcay's Tapu Fini + Landorus-T + Mega Mawile + Victini Balance
Caasi 's Team Dump

 

[Rumplestiltskin]

I hope perish song not being banned is just something that was overlooked.

 

[lost heros]

Welcome back to the 2nd best OM there is! So while we were waiting for 2v2's official return the 1v1 room has been doing some testing some strategies through unofficial tours. With Gen7 a lot of new toys came to be player and while we have the obvious powerhouses (and Mega Abomasnow) mentioned in the OP, there are a lot of crazy strategies and synergies.

Mega Salamence is a great powerhouse. With Intimidate before Mega Evolving, many physical attackers are wary of being sent out, and thanks to its high Attack Stats combined with Aerilate, Mega Salamence easily runs mixed sets with Hyper Voice, Giga Impact, Outrage, and Fire Blast or Earthquake. Mega Salamence also makes a great partner for Rock/Ground Earthquake Spammers because not only is Mega Salamence to Earthquake, but the partner also resists Hyper Voice and hits Steel-types that could wall Salamence.

Tapu Koko and Raichu Alola are a terrifying pair. With an insanely high speed tier and a 175 BP STAB Electric Terrain Boosted Signature Z Move Nuzzle
hits like a truck to any non-ground Pokémon. Or you could run Specs Alolan Raichu and Z move Koko and just really trouble your opponent. Back up this pair with any water or ice type and ground types will never scare you away.

Oranguru is such an interesting Pokémon to look at. Able to set up trick room easily and then support a slow teammate with Instruct can turn some underwhelming Pokémon into pure Powerhouses and thanks to telepathy it isn't affected by its teammate's attacks. Right now, Vikavolt or Diancie can appreciate Oranguru's support, but eventually Mega Camerup might as well.

Victini is the unsung third wheel of the Sun Pokémon. With 180 BP STAB Sun Boosted V-Created, Victini can laugh down any wall your opponent might send out against you. Sure it only has 1 target, but with its insane power, it doesn't really need another one.

Politoed is a scary Pokémon to deal with when you see it on the opposing team. Not because it's particularly scary itself, but because of its ability to set rain easily. Last generation rain teams featuring Politoed rarely needed a fourth Pokémon, and were content with running too Swift Swim Pokémon alongside Politoed. While rain itself had no direct buffs, Pelipper also is available as a rain setter.

Some other stuff:
Focus Sash: This is probably one of the strongest items currently legal in 2v2 doubles. The ability to survive any 1 move on your first hit and potentially retaliate can really punish your opponent for not running spread moves.

Boomburst Spammers: Boomburst from Exploud can be incredibly dangerous at KOing enemies. Thanks to abilities like telepathy and Soundproof many partner Pokémon can simply ignore their teammates boomburst and keep attacking.

Any Good 1v1 Pokémon: Many Pokémon that are good in standard 1v1 are able to shine in 2v2 as well. Mega Gyarados and Mega Mawile have a great ability in Intimidate to scare Physical Attackers, and Kyurem-B can still rip through opponents with Icium z.

 

[Rumplestiltskin]

Welcome back to the 2nd best OM there is! ... and Magearna can use Soul-Heart to make great comebacks when it's teammate faints.

No, it's the #1 best OM there is!

Also Magearna is banned by Doubles OU.

 

[david0895]

Magearna could be suspect tested since there are only four pokemon on the field

 

[lotiasite]

scarf final gambit victini + Magearna seems like an interesting combination; you nuke something with victini and give magearna a +1 boost (magearna can trick room/protect on the first turn) and then twinkle tackle or something on the second turn. I think magearna will get banned eventually if not quickly.

deoxys + tapu lele also seems pretty broken. im assuming sash is banned, so LO deoxys-a and scarf lele will destroy most things. you might even consider running scarf deo-a to counter chlorophyll venusaur or something, but that's pretty niche.

there are just so many pairs available that work so well together in this meta, and i'm really looking for to gen 7 2v2 doubles!

 

[Tol]

I think that people are overlooking the fact that non-synergy teams can do just as well. I've found through testing against most weather/terrain based teams that Icium KyuB and Mega Alakazam can blast through those teams easily.
Straightforward power can often beat strategic intelligence.

 

[jrm115]

I think that people are overlooking the fact that non-synergy teams can do just as well. I've found through testing against most weather/terrain based teams that Icium KyuB and Mega Alakazam can blast through those teams easily.
Straightforward power can often beat strategic intelligence.

your megazam beat me bc you traced chloro and not drought, no?

 

[Tol]

your megazam beat me bc you traced chloro and not drought, no?

Whether it did or not is beside the point. I'm pretty sure that Alakazam outspeeds Venusaur anyway, OHKOing it with Psychic.
EDIT AFTER CALC: 252+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 404-476 (110.9 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO, and if it's a Chlorophyll set then you don't even have that much health.

 

[DEG]

As the first stage of Gen 7 2v2 doubles metagame I want you guys to share your thoughts on the metagame this generation, some fun cores and tactics you used/use and I want to know your opinion on, Perish Song, Focus Sash and Deoxys-Attack.

 

[Rumplestiltskin]

deoxys + tapu lele also seems pretty broken. im assuming sash is banned, so LO deoxys-a and scarf lele will destroy most things.

From playing 2v2 Doubles this gen, Tapu Lele has indeed shown itself to be pretty broken, mainly due to its ability, which when combined with almost any viable psychic type partner results in a too strong duo to face.
Another poke that shares a similar trait, though I haven't seen it as much in play is Tapu Koko, which also most likely is broken too, for the same reasons.

I want to know your opinion on, ... Focus Sash and Deoxys-Attack.

Regarding Deo-A, I think what I said in gen 6 is still accurate:

...it would need actual experience and testing to figure out. However, I can say right now that Deo-A hasn't been a problem for me at all to handle with the various pokes I've tried and used. It always gets taken down to the sash, and multi-target moves are very viable for doing that and getting some damage in on its partner as well. Protect is also a good way to deal with its damage as it doesn't use any multi-target moves. It will almost always have Psycho boost, which means that if you have recovery or used a sub, you wont have to deal with that special damage again. Overall, my experience with it has been that it gets removed from the battle very easily and early, after it either having done a number on my team or not, which I think is not too bad of an exchange.

Regarding Focus Sash, it hasn't been that noteworthy of a strat/item and one of the reasons for that is that you can focus fire a poke in doubles, and it most certainly hasn't proven itself too much trouble to deal with nor being anywhere near a need for a ban.

The #1 priority right now in terms of balancing should be the two pokes that are very likely broken and in need of ban, Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko.

... and I want to know your opinion on, Perish Song

Seriously? You're saying it's not banned? What's the point of this?
I'm pretty sure we all know that it's way more unhealthy here than in 1v1 (where it's banned), and has already been addressed with more than compelling arguments in the 1st 2v2 Doubles thread.

correct me if I'm wrong but you only need like, one super slow mon and the perish song user.
So basicly you could stick something like ferro, bronzong, chansey or something super bulky with minimun speed with your perish songer and then just make sure the slow bulky wall survives till perish counter goes down, which should actually be pretty easy to do with protect and stuff, like you could pair your super slow azu with something like iron ball prankster sableye that uses sub + protect to stall the other team out effortlessly while the partner distracts and distrupts them.

 

[lost heros]

Perish Song is going to start out as not banned, just how it was in regular 1v1. While it probably will be effective to just use a super bulky Pokémon and a Perish Song User, both are easily able to be double targeted from opposing fast and strong Pokémon. Especially with Z moves around, some Perish Song Setters might not survive long enough to set apple erish Song at all.

Focus Sash is especially concerning. Your opponent is practically forced to either double target your Focus Sash Pokémon or use a spread move to hope to KO it. The problem is Focus Sash nigh guarantees a chance for a super strong and frail Pokémon a chance to attack and potentially KO your opponent.

Deoxys-A was already one of the strongest Pokémon in Gen 6 2v2, usually paired with a Fake Out user like Scrafty. However in Gen 7, thanks to Tapu Lele and Psychic Terrain it no longer has to worry about opposing Priority to break its Sash and beat and it also gets a super powered Psycho Boost.

 

[Kentari]

Perish Song is going to start out as not banned, just how it was in regular 1v1. While it probably will be effective to just use a super bulky Pokémon and a Perish Song User, both are easily able to be double targeted from opposing fast and strong Pokémon. Especially with Z moves around, some Perish Song Setters might not survive long enough to set apple erish Song at all.

I would really, really encourage just banning Perish Song. It's the absolute worst thing in 1v1. In AG 1v1 it's broken and centralizing and boring and no fun. I just cannot imagine 2v2 being a fun metagame with Perish Song unbanned. All you have to do is run a Perish Song pokemon and a slow mon that can live three turns.

There was more than enough discussion about Perish Song in the gen 6 1v1 thread.

Here from DEG himself
A post from Rumplestilskin
AESF's thoughts

How you're going to beat this team without something like a Snorlax, priority other than Extreme Speed, something that 100% OHKOs Meloetta, or Taunt I don't really know.

Sableye @ Iron Ball
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Recover
- Protect
- Substitute
- Taunt

Meloetta @ Mental Herb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Substitute
- Trick Room

A Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-592539480

 

[jrm115]

the worrying thing about psong is that it doesnt need to be on a dedicated team. you can run, say, sash politoed for both ss abuse and w/ something like iron ball sableye, which can be used for other archetypes and combinations as well. the fact that it can autowin and force 50/50s the way these combination teams do lead me to believe that psong is far and away the most ridiculous thing in 2v2 doubles right now.

 

[Rumplestiltskin]

Perish Song is going to start out as not banned, just how it was in regular 1v1.

Perish Song didn't start out unbanned in 1v1, it was unbanned later, and that's not something to emulate, it's something to learn from.

While it probably will be effective to just use a super bulky Pokémon and a Perish Song User, both are easily able to be double targeted from opposing fast and strong Pokémon. Especially with Z moves around, some Perish Song Setters might not survive long enough to set apple erish Song at all.

I'm guessing you don't realize how centralizing that is? No one said perish song was unbeatable, and everyone knows extreme offense can beat it. And yet it was banned, because it fit multiple criteria for a ban. It's an undesired strat, that centralizes the meta even more towards extreme offense and is just straight up unfair. I think the posts linked by Kentari sums it up pretty well. And here's the start of the second discussion in the 1v1 thread (I suggest reading that if you haven't already).
Why are you insisting on allowing an obviously and blatantly broken, unhealthy, and unwanted strat that has had more than enough discussion? It's a massive waste of time to regress like that when we should be progressing the meta.

Focus Sash is especially concerning. Your opponent is practically forced to either double target your Focus Sash Pokémon or use a spread move to hope to KO it. The problem is Focus Sash nigh guarantees a chance for a super strong and frail Pokémon a chance to attack and potentially KO your opponent.

You just described the function of Focus Sash, and I don't see how it isn't fair that it has that function. I think it's more than fair that a poke might get a chance to do something in a meta where a poke can get focus fired without the chance of even doing anything.

Deoxys-A was already one of the strongest Pokémon in Gen 6 2v2, usually paired with a Fake Out user like Scrafty. However in Gen 7, thanks to Tapu Lele and Psychic Terrain it no longer has to worry about opposing Priority to break its Sash and beat and it also gets a super powered Psycho Boost.

So you're justifying suspecting a poke that might not have been broken before, but became broken now due to a poke that I'm suggesting is broken and should be the priority right now?

 

[Tol]

As the first stage of Gen 7 2v2 doubles metagame I want you guys to share your thoughts on the metagame this generation, some fun cores and tactics you used/use and I want to know your opinion on, Perish Song, Focus Sash and Deoxys-Attack.

If it was anything but a version of 1v1, I would say that all of these are fine. I'm not gonna argue with the previous posts on Perish Song, and focus on Sash and Deo-A.
DEOXYS-ATTACK: In my opinion, ban it straight-up or possibly ban it for use in a team with Tapu Lele. It's almost impossible to kill before it gets off a superpowered Z-Move when paired with Lele, as its speed makes it faster than most scarfers and priorities are blocked with the terrain. Another noteworthy thing that the terrain does is prevent a Surge Surfer A-Raichu from outspeeding it, as the Psychic terrain replaces the Electric version. This, as you can see, makes it hard to take down unless a Sash comes into play. Any half-decent Lele will be able to win with Deoxys-Attack, I've even swept full teams in Doubles OU with that combo. Unless you want to have to bring Scarf Pheromosa to every battle, ban it.
FOCUS SASH: In my opinion, it's not as horrible in this meta as in 1v1, so don't start with it banned. After some weeks of battles, then you'll know how bad it is for the meta.

 

[lost heros]

Perish Song didn't start out unbanned in 1v1, it was unbanned later, and that's not something to emulate, it's something to learn from.


I'm guessing you don't realize how centralizing that is? No one said perish song was unbeatable, and everyone knows extreme offense can beat it. And yet it was banned, because it fit multiple criteria for a ban. It's an undesired strat, that centralizes the meta even more towards extreme offense and is just straight up unfair. I think the posts linked by Kentari sums it up pretty well. And here's the start of the second discussion in the 1v1 thread (I suggest reading that if you haven't already).
Why are you insisting on allowing an obviously and blatantly broken, unhealthy, and unwanted strat that has had more than enough discussion? It's a massive waste of time to regress like that when we should be progressing the meta.

You just described the function of Focus Sash, and I don't see how it isn't fair that it has that function. I think it's more than fair that a poke might get a chance to do something in a meta where a poke can get focus fired without the chance of even doing anything.

So you're justifying suspecting a poke that might not have been broken before, but became broken now due to a poke that I'm suggesting is broken and should be the priority right now?

First, I would like to clarify something. We're not saying all of these are broken nor unbroken or that the meta will stay exactly as it is, nor will these be the only things we will ever look at. This is just what we're focusing on first because these three elements appeared the most dangerous to us.

Now onto your responses:
Perish Song: It's currently allowed in 2v2 because we're starting out solely with the DOU banlist. 2v2 is different than 1v1. In 1v1, Perish Song nearly invalidated bulky and defensive strategies centralizing the metagame around HO, however, because in 2v2 multiple Pokémon can target the Perish Song User the same level of power isn't necessary any more to beat it. That's not to say Defensive strategies don't struggle against psong, but Defensive strategies struggle as a whole in 2v2 and banning Perish Song won't help them very much.

Focus Sash: Focus Sash's function becomes much more valuable in 2v2 rather than standard 6v6. With no way of getting rid of the Sash except by attacking that Pokémon twice either in one turn or multiple turns. While yes, this is very possible by Focus firing one Pokémon, doing so leaves one other Pokémon completely unharmed unless you're using spread moves. The question should be regarding Focus Sash, is this item going to be always preferable or nearly always on Non-mega Non-Z Pokémon and restrict teambuilding to the point that not actively building against it is a problem. (Are you using Spread moves and Focus firing anyways?)

Deoxys-A:
I think we all can acknowledge Tapu Lele + Deoxys-A is a deadly combination. We're focusing on Deoxys-A first because not only is it half of that team, but it's also very good without Tapu Lele. With 180 in both offensive stats and an insane 150 speed tier, it is an obvious powerhouse with or without Psychic Terrain Support. There's no reason it still can't run with a Fake Out user to break through Focus Sash.

 

[tigertomd]

As the first stage of Gen 7 2v2 doubles metagame I want you guys to share your thoughts on the metagame this generation, some fun cores and tactics you used/use and I want to know your opinion on, Perish Song, Focus Sash and Deoxys-Attack.

Perish Song: This looks to be very unbalanced on paper. It means your team is forced into two categories, either perish stall or hyper offence. This should definitely be quick banned extremely quickly

Focus sash: While powerful, it is in no way overcentralizing in the meta. Many Pokemon will run spread moves regardless, and sash users are usually fairly obvious. It allows several Pokémon to be useable and have a place in the meta

Deoxys-A: I'm still unsure whether it or Tapu Lele is the broken part of the core. It would be best to keep an eye on them in the coming weeks and then suspect the one that looks the most broken

 

[Chloe]

I'm going to post this in a weird order as you kind of contradict yourself in multiple places and it's easier to view if I sort it this way.

Perish Song:
It's currently allowed in 2v2 because we're starting out solely with the DOU banlist. 2v2 is different than 1v1. In 1v1, Perish Song nearly invalidated bulky and defensive strategies centralizing the metagame around HO, however, because in 2v2 multiple Pokémon can target the Perish Song User the same level of power isn't necessary any more to beat it. That's not to say Defensive strategies don't struggle against psong, but Defensive strategies struggle as a whole in 2v2 and banning Perish Song won't help them very much.

I'm not saying I know more than you here or anything but stating that Perish Song won't be as broken solely because of the doubles atmosphere seems somewhat absurd, at least from a spectator's perspective. While it does face some more challenges in the face of HO potency and prevalence, it's balanced by the existence of the teammate, allowing support for Perish Song to function correctly. By your statement, it seems you assume against offensive playstyles Perish Song automatically faces defeat, when this just isn't true. It adds nothing healthy to the metagame by remaining as it just completely invalidates defensive playstyles while not being useless against offensive variants. If you don't want a metagame with ten to fifteen different Pokémon making up the entire viability ranking, I'd suggest quickbanning this immediately. Like seriously lol? Even when this metagame was reset to a bare minimum of bans in 2015, Perish Song existed as the only ban; that's how doltish it is to keep around.

Deoxys-A:
I think we all can acknowledge Tapu Lele + Deoxys-A is a deadly combination. We're focusing on Deoxys-A first because not only is it half of that team, but it's also very good without Tapu Lele. With 180 in both offensive stats and an insane 150 speed tier, it is an obvious powerhouse with or without Psychic Terrain Support. There's no reason it still can't run with a Fake Out user to break through Focus Sash.

I'm going to skip Focus Sash since I do believe it should remain in the metagame and come to this point which baffles me. Deoxys-Attack was considered quite balanced last generation by those who played the metagame most, whereas the introduction of Tapu Lele created a situation for the former to be considered unbearable. This isn't the primary issue here however. The problem I see is that Tapu Lele can provide many other abusers (for example a potential replacement in Deoxys-N) with amazing support to the point that they are much more powerful than last generation Deoxys-Attack. My point here is that without Deoxys-Attack, Tapu Lele will find another Pokémon to provide support for and overwhelm opposing teams with ease. Psychic Terrain in its entirety is completely disgusting in a metagame with a healthy amount of priority, and you're not going to lessen its prevalence as a playstyle by just taking away its core abuser of the terrain. Psychic Surge should really be rid of. Tapu Lele is the issue, not Deoxys-Attack. Not only does banning Deoxys-Attack not solve the problem, letting Tapu Lele remain is insanely detrimental. It will result in an endless loop. Tapu Lele will deem one terrain abuser ban-worthy, the abuser will get banned, everyone will vouch for the problem being solved and then another abuser will rise with similar power to the previous ban. You either have a few broken Pokémon that feed off Psychic Terrain or you have one Pokémon that is good without the terrain. Your argument that it remains good without Psychic Terrain being the reason it requires a ban over the aforementioned issues with that is a complete and utter logical fallacy.

We're not saying all of these are broken nor unbroken or that the meta will stay exactly as it is, nor will these be the only things we will ever look at. This is just what we're focusing on first because these three elements appeared the most dangerous to us.

Sometimes it's good to gauge the views of the community, and by viewing the entirety of the posts thus far, I can safely say no one has actually agreed with your proposal on Deoxys-Attack being the core component for the issue other than one poster blatantly stating that he was unsure of the main problem here being Tapu Lele or Deoxys-Attack. Additionally, no one understands why Perish Song isn't banned already. Unless I am missing some dialogue out of thread where people have provided solid arguments for Perish Song to remain, I seriously doubt there's any reason for this other than a slight misjudgement on your end. If this dialogue did occur, may we please view it, as I'm just confused to why it still exists in this metagame. Especially with the overwhelming support that has appeared throughout the thread. I'd go as far to say that neither you or DEG have provided factual and viable reasoning for why Perish Song or Tapu Lele should remain.

I'm sorry for barging in on a metagame I'm clearly not the most knowledgeable about, but after reading some of these arguments I felt like I had to. No offense.

 

[Tol]

Okay, I saw Lost Heros' post about Perish Song, and while I know I said I wouldn't talk about that, I had to put my two cents in.

Perish Song: It's currently allowed in 2v2 because we're starting out solely with the DOU banlist.

This, as Chloe said, makes absolutely no sense. There's a reason it's not banned in doubles OU, and that's because of two things:
1. It can't wipe out your entire team, hence not being a viable win condition.
2. There are ways of stopping it (Switching out, forcing the Perish Songer to switch out).
And guess how many of these reasons are still there in 2v2.

2v2 is different than 1v1. In 1v1, Perish Song nearly invalidated bulky and defensive strategies centralizing the metagame around HO, however, because in 2v2 multiple Pokémon can target the Perish Song User the same level of power isn't necessary any more to beat it.

You're overlooking one thing here: with some teams, all they have to do is get off a PSong once during the match and then the Meloetta can die and still win the match. Or, if they don't go for the Meloetta, then Sableye proves very adept at Subbing his way out of danger. So really, it's the same situation: OHKO it first turn, something that's pretty damn hard to do, or lose. You're forced to carry a counterteam just for that one strategy, some really powerful Dark type, which I believe is the dictionary definition of ban-worthy and overcentralizing.
Also, defensive strategies, in 1v1 and 2v2, are beside the point when it comes to banning PSong. Most, if not all, defensive strategies in 1v1 go down to a Spite PP stall Dusclops, but is anyone suggesting banning that? Perish Song is a solid defeater of defensive strategies, true, but it's ban worthy because it requires a specific counter on your team, and without that you're going to lose all the time.
To quote Chloe, "No one understands why Perish Song isn't banned already."

 

[DEG]

Perish Song is now banned.

 

[Tol]

Okay, so I suppose it's up to me to post the first sample team. Without further ado, here it is.

Teambuilder Stuff

LumberjackBeLikeSwerve (Kyurem-Black) @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Rock Slide
- Freeze Shock
- Outrage

Zap! (Alakazam-Mega) @ Alakazite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Energy Ball

Afterburners (Heatran) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Taunt

Jack Frost (Abomasnow-Mega) @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Focus Blast
- Protect

This team is built around Kyurem-Black and the Icium Z crystal. As every 1v1 player knows, a Subzero Slammer from KyuB is one of the most powerful things in the game. All of the other team members support KyuB in some way, with Heatran killing Steel types that can wall it, Abomasnow boosting the power of Subzero Slammer with the hail and killing Dragon types, and Alakazam KOing Fighting types and breaking Sash with its incredible speed. Unfortunately, I don't have any replays, but I'm sure that people like Rumplestiltskin can vouch for its decency.
EDIT: It was brought to my attention that Hail does not boost the power of Ice moves. Ignore that bit.

 

[charizard8888]

Initial thoughts

FlareBolt

Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fusion Flare
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Psyshock
- Trick

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Have been talking about this in the room for a while, Fusion Flare + Fusion Bolt looks powerful. Fusion Bolt after getting its powerful doubled hits harder than STAB Outrage and can always 2HKO Mega Gyarados [would be important if Mega Gyarados will be common in 2v2] and in general does a lot of damage. Can't decide exactly the best sets as the meta is new both scarfed can allow these two Pokemon to deal damage before others mostly, Choice Band can be chosen if the meta emerges out to be bulky. The only demerit is that Outrage has unknown target otherwise this looks powerful and promising.

Calcs

Fusion Bolt's Base Power is 200 in these calcs
Outrage Vs Fusion Bolt on neutral foe:
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 353-416 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 338-398 (120.2 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 200 HP / 56 Def Tapu Lele: 314-370 (94.8 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 254-299 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Slowbro-Mega: 316-374 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drought Cre8

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Zen Headbutt
- Trick

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn / Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Ancient Power
- Substitute / Heat Wave

Physical Victini in Sun with Mega Charizard Y is another wallbreaking combo. Sun boosted V-Create can take care of special walls (like Chansey) and Mega Charizard Y can do the same to physical walls Again not sure whether to keep the Mega Charizard Y set as a carry over from 1v1 or should be different here, Blast Burn offers more power while Heat Wave hits both the opponents which might be better in some cases for instance, when facing Sturdy/Sash Pokemon, can probably keep both of these as well, the other EV spread (EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 152 SpA / 20 Spe) with Modest nature can be used, the first EV spread if Zard Y is supposed to be bulky here as well it can take a +1 Waterfall from Mega Gyarados, Outrage from Kyurem-Black and Modest Hyper Beam, the best set options will be carved out as the metagame progresses.
Victini's ability also grants accuracy boost to its teammates (xfix spotted this) which is another good thing

More strategies which might be good

Strats

Multihit moves can break Sturdy and Sash if they become common. Mega Heracross is the most well known user of multihit moves but there's Deoxys-A which might restrict it. Gigalith could make a return in 2v2 (Dem Custap Berry so its lost in 1v1) with Choice Band Rock Blast, also has Sturdy. Golem in addition to that has priority Sucker Punch and can choose to have another item (like Liechi Berry or Weakness Policy) but Gigalith has more raw power.

With Mega Salamence in the tier, Mega Charizard X faces a tough competition but it can still be used as both of Mega Salamence's STABs are resisted by Steel (Fire Blast/Earthquake from Salamence is still a 2HKO on Mega Metagross)while Mega Charizard X can deal with that, additionally mostly others would expect it to be Zard Y whose advantage can be taken. Thanks to Tough Claws, Mega Charizard X's contact moves of same base power (everything except Giga Impact) still do more damage than Mega Salamence's so its still not actually outclassed by it and can be used due to these reasons.

Hide

252 Atk Salamence-Mega Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 282-333 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Just trying to say by different means that Zard X can stillbe good

The pair of Mega Charizard X and Greninja can be lethal as with Mat Block (Special Thanks to Ebhainia for helping in testing), Zard X gets a free turn to setup Dragon Dance (against faster Pokemon) or Substitute (If you're aware that the opponent has a Sturdy/Sash Pokemon as 2 attacks do more damage than a 1.5x boosted one) or even Belly Drum if it needs to KO the bulkiest of Pokemon (best to use if it outspeed every other Pokemon) The combo itself is really strong too, as it contains both a physical and special attacker. Waterium Z is the item on Greninja for more damage, can be replaced with Focus Sash and with Sash it can have Icy Wind as well to get two guaranteed hits on the Pokemon which outspeed it and also helps Zard X in some cases. I personally prefer the Sash variant. But Mat Block unlike Protect does not have priority so this strategy works the best against slower Pokemon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen72v2doubles-38652

Hide

Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance / Belly Drum
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz
- Substitute / Belly Drum

Greninja @ Waterium Z / Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mat Block
- Hydro Cannon
- Ice Beam / Icy Wind
- Dark Pulse

If you want to make a dedicated Belly Drum set then Protect can be used on Charizard. This is how it'll work:
Turn 1: Mat Block, Belly Drum
Turn 2: Protect Charizard, Icy Wind on the foe which is faster than Charizard
Turn 3: Attack
With Belly Drum, Outrage can be replaced with Dragon Claw for more reliability.

Substitute
Substitute can be an interesting move as it can still block status and additionally in 2v2, Protect is used more (For Fake Out, Scouting moves, and can also be used to take Z-Moves) so Substitute can create some 50/50s. For instance, you predict your opponent to use Protect and can go for Substitute which'll give you the upper hand. This is a bit situational but the move is still good outside of this and worth having.

Mimikyu with Sash can always take two hits except if the opponent has Mold Breaker which in 2v2 might be enough for it to setup, attack or go with a Curse set like the one in 1v1. Another thing, if the Sash set becomes common can even run a Z-Move set and surprise the opponent (who might be expecting Sash) I don't use this Pokemon much so I'm not the best one to have a set for this :P

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Sandslash-Alola @ Choice Band / Steelium Z / Groundium Z
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 4 SpD / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Leech Life

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Blizzard
- Moonblast
- Filler Freeze-Dry / Protect

Hail teams, as mentioned in the OP with the addition of Slush Rush can be used. Alolan Ninetales can go for either Specs all out attacker or with Aurora Veil for providing more bulk. Protect can be carried as Hail damage can also help break Sturdy/Sash. Ground Z looks the best Z crystal for Sandslash Alola as Steel resists Ice, 208 Speed EVs with Jolly nature lets it outspeed Scarf Kyurem-Black 48 HP doesn't help much, max speed lets it outspeed base 100 speed scarf after Slush Rush boost.

Note: The examples of Pokemon which some sets defeat might not be the best as we dont know what's going to be common this gen (Like Slowbro might not be used that much) but the sets otherwise can work as well

Excited for 2v2 Doubles as it progresses in Gen 7 [As I wasn't able to play it last generation :( ] feel free to correct me if I'm wrong somewhere