32 turns of stall in the Hail: Walrein

[drew1750]

NP, I don't think there is much doubt about the effectiveness of the set. Clearly, none of these "counters" are typical in the current metagame. I mean really... low/no speed Breloom and Focus Punch Weavile are not exactly popular choices at the moment.

Closer to the current metagame are the Metagross set (anything on a metagross is more or less scary) and possibly the Toxicroak set. No one uses toxicroak... but if someone did they would probably use the standard rain dance set.

As you stated the best part about this set are that the counters are not in the current metagame. Yes, obviously, there are counters to this set as there are with every set. However they would almost have the soul purpose of countering Wallrein (if that's what you are calling it)....which seems unlikely. Metagross is the exception but even then it is unlikely that the majority of teams don't have a metagross to counter this.

Toxicroak counters it but who uses a toxicroak? maybe to counter Heracross, as it resists all of its normal attacks (megahorn (4X resist) Close Combat, Stone Edge, Pursuit)....but even then it is likely 2 HKOed by Choice Banded CC from Hera

 

[Dragontamer]

Suicune, who's also one of the few pokemon that still commonly carries Rest.

Hmm, good point. I'll accept Suicune as an acceptable Phazer against this guy, and I'd say it is a decent OU meta-game threat.

So we're looking at:

1. Hammer-Arm / Bullet-Punch Metagross
2. Swords Dance Quick-Attack Scizor
3. Roar Suicune
4. T-Tar

Solid counters for this set. Any others?

 

[Molecule]

CM Clefable is actually OU capable in my opinion. It takes physical hits with about the same efficacy as Blissey (which is to say, not great, but good enough to stand at least 2 hits from most non-fighting attacks) and ends up hitting pretty hard if it can get a CM in. I'd say it's at least as reasonable a candidate as Hammer Arm Metagross.

Edit: oh, and one other thing; faster Knock-Off and Trick users (which essentially means Gliscor and Alakazam) can mess this strategy up if they ever get in when you don't have a sub up.

 

[Bologo]

@Molecule:

Mr.Mime does a better job at tricking in this situtation than Alakazam because it gets Soundproof which means it can't be Roared away, it has very nice special defense which means it can take several special attacks from Walrein. It can also learn Thunderbolt which makes it better than Alakazam against Walrein, as Alakazam can only learn Hidden Power Electric at best.

It can Trick off something like a Choice Scarf onto Walrein which will force it to switch out if it's not using Substitute or Protect. This translates to a set like this that can counter Walrein:

Mr.Mime @Choice Scarf
Ability: Soundproof

~ Trick
~ Thunderbolt
~ Hypnosis
~ Hidden Power Ice

Mr. Mime is actually a good counter even without Trick because it can still have Soundproof to not be Roared out, and since it won't need Trick, it can run something like this to stay alive nice and easily to kill Walrein, although it will have a much harder time when Walrein is still able to sub up and protect:

Mr.Mime @Chesto Berry
Ability: Soundproof

~ Hidden Power Ice
~ Thunderbolt
~ Recycle
~ Rest

These sets both generally work thanks to Soundproof though.

 

[Swimrunner]

i think you can start asking a mod to add this to the walrein analysis

 

[Molecule]

Yeah but the only reason to use Trick Mr. Mime in OU is to counter this set; Alakazam is going to perform better in almost any other scenario. Also, Alakazam can learn Grass Knot, which actually hits Walrein for 100 BP.

At any rate, once Walrein is no longer holding Leftovers it's effectively countered regardless of whether the Pokemon that Tricked it is still in play. Once leftovers are gone it only regenerates 6.25% health per turn.

 

[Dragontamer]

I've faced Trick-Zam before, and the solution is quite simple.

1. Protect (you need to do this anyway).
2. Switch to someone who will like Specs / Scarf

If the Sub/Protect cycle is in play, you can actually just sit till its over. Essentially, it is only a counter if the substitute is somehow not there, which is near impossible when the cycle starts. (you need to have a slower pokemon who dies killing the sub, and then switch in a faster pokemon who can hit me)

Unless Trick hits through substitute... but I doubt it. (I don't know however)

Oh... and Butterfree is another faster whirlwind pokemon... I don't know if it counts as a OU counter though >_>

 

[Molecule]

I've faced Trick-Zam before, and the solution is quite simple.

1. Protect (you need to do this anyway).
2. Switch to someone who will like Specs / Scarf

If the Sub/Protect cycle is in play, you can actually just sit till its over. Essentially, it is only a counter if the substitute is somehow not there, which is near impossible when the cycle starts. (you need to have a slower pokemon who dies killing the sub, and then switch in a faster pokemon who can hit me)

Unless Trick hits through substitute... but I doubt it. (I don't know however)

Oh... and Butterfree is another faster whirlwind pokemon... I don't know if it counts as a OU counter though >_>

You can also kill the sub with a slow pokemon, switch out on the protect turn, and switch in a fast pokemon.

 

[ChronoSquare]

And Clefable rocks, okay.

Lol, speaking of Clefable... Magic Guard is so sexy, I've always been looking to try and fit it on some kind of weather team... after seeing this thread, a Hail team took priority.

Made the team before looking through the majority of the thread... then I go back, look at the shoddy team, and think, "Why'd I give these moves to Clefable again?" Then it hit me.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Bold/Impish, 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 S.Def
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Substitute

Though it wouldn't be anywhere near as resilient as Walrein, it has healing in the form of Wish, and with it it could finish the job Walrein started, if it for whatever reason got shut down. It doesn't have any form of phazing and its subs are going to be broken more easily, but it could do more damage with seismic toss to a lot of pokemon than Walrein could do with its Surf/Blizzard, and with Magic Guard a status can't guarantee it'll be stopped, like how a lucky/well-timed Toxic can effectively limit Wallrein's stalling capabilities.

For stalling, the cycle would be altered slightly - adding wish after a sub, and protect lets you get your wish healing.

The EVs listed just provide a max HP Clefable with 242 in both defenses; there'd probably be a more ideal spread, but it's late and I just wanted to throw this idea out there before I went to bed...

And actually, this set gives me a funny idea... what if Wallrein and this Clefable were the last two pokes on both trainer's sides... lol, it'd be worse than a Blissey face-off. ((This idea should be payed no mind... I'm just typing up a semi-random thought... not thinking too seriously by this time of night.))

 

[Molecule]

Clefable @ Leftovers
Bold/Impish, 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 S.Def
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Substitute

This set really has nothing to stop DD Tyranitar or Gyarados from just setting up some dragon dances, taunting, and then melting everything's face in though.

 

[choop]

So does this walrein actually do anything? Use rest/sleep talk cresselia/dusknoir if you want something that won't die.

 

[QibingZero]

So does this walrein actually do anything? Use rest/sleep talk cresselia/dusknoir if you want something that won't die.

It stalls in hail with toxic spikes out. That much should have been clear from a very minimal amount of reading. It also has the luxury of not being countered by very many things you would find on your average team, unlike the pokemon/sets you mentioned. He's using a pokemon to stall that benefits from his hail team, as opposed to using a common wall whose leftovers would become negated.

 

[choop]

First of all, this is just heracross bait. I don't know about you, but on an ice team I wouldn't be too keen in setting up toxic spikes and invite heracross to come in. Sure, froslass can switch in on cbclose combat, and sure, you can protect while hail+toxic hurts, but if the player incorporates wish, I think you will find this will do more harm than good!

But like, steels are everywhere. And if you're relying on toxic to kill your opponent (all hail is doing is practically stealing their lefties recovery) you're not gonna do much since steels, blissey and natural care pokemon are everywhere. Starmie beats this. Heatran beats this if you have blizzard over surf. Most magnezone carry substitute, and can sub while you protect. Scizor with roost beats it. Even skarmory beats it, especially if you have blizzard. Some metagross beat it. Even tentacruel beats it. Not to mention any pokemon with rest can just stall you out. Say you roar until 5 of their pokemon are toxicked, and you have 100% health and a sub up, then you roar and bring out blissey. It uses aromatherapy and you have essentially done zilch. I am all for making unlikely pokemon useable, but I just can't see this doing anything.

 

[Dragontamer]

First of all, this is just heracross bait. I don't know about you, but on an ice team I wouldn't be too keen in setting up toxic spikes and invite heracross to come in. Sure, froslass can switch in on cbclose combat, and sure, you can protect while hail+toxic hurts, but if the player incorporates wish, I think you will find this will do more harm than good!

Maybe I'm missing something here, but explain this "wish" strategy before I criticize anything.

But like, steels are everywhere. And if you're relying on toxic to kill your opponent (all hail is doing is practically stealing their lefties recovery) you're not gonna do much since steels, blissey and natural care pokemon are everywhere. Starmie beats this. Heatran beats this if you have blizzard over surf.

No, actually if Starmie doesn't have recover, it dies in 16 turns due to hail. If it doesn't have rapid spin, it isn't a threat at all. Ditto with Heatran, it dies in 16 turns to the hail. If the toxic spikes are laid down, Starmie dies sooner.

Most magnezone carry substitute, and can sub while you protect.

Good. So it dies in 12 turns because of hail instead of 16. If it has leftovers, I can roar it away or use Surf to whittle it down.

Scizor with roost beats it. Even skarmory beats it, especially if you have blizzard.

Incorrect. Both blizzard and Surf is a 3-hit KO on Skarm, while most of the time I'm roaring both of those guys away. Scizor with roost does cause problems, which is why I roar.

Some metagross beat it.

I've beaten Metagross without the hail. With the hail, it dies in 16 turns as I sub/protect.

Even tentacruel beats it. Not to mention any pokemon with rest can just stall you out. Say you roar until 5 of their pokemon are toxicked, and you have 100% health and a sub up, then you roar and bring out blissey. It uses aromatherapy and you have essentially done zilch. I am all for making unlikely pokemon useable, but I just can't see this doing anything.

Aromatherapy means nothing if they don't get rid of the toxic spikes. The toxic just comes back when they come in, meaning the only way to break it is to use rapid spin or absorb it with a poison pokemon. Even then, Walrein can most of the time out-stall pokemon due to the hail. If it isn't going to work, roar out a pokemon who will die to the hail, or use surf.

(Gyarados is one example. Unless it packs stone-edge, surf/blizzard kills it first.)

 

[Mr.E]

Starmie and Heatran usually pack Leftovers and Skarmory can Roost, buddy! At least Metagross sometimes carries CB.

 

[Dragontamer]

Starmie and Heatran usually pack Leftovers and Skarmory can Roost, buddy! At least Metagross sometimes carries CB.

Skarmory is a non-issue as I am faster and roar it away, it can't break the sub with drill peck, and it can't switch into my surfs. When Skarm is the only one left, I switch to someone who can OHKO or two-hit KO (Frosslass, PorygonZ, etc. etc.)

Starmie is either going to rapid spin , in which case I'll scout with protect and then switch to weavile / frosslass, or it is going to thunderbolt / recover. In that case, it will die to toxic spikes.

I deal with Heatran the same way I deal with everything that walls this set: Roar. Its not like Walrein is weak to fire. Without leftovers, Heatran is dead.

EDIT: There is only one leftovers set in the heatran analysis. The other ones are Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, and Focus Sash. The GrowthTran combo uses Life Orb / Choice Specs. And my experience with Heatran is stalling them in the hail. I'm going to have to say that most Heatran's I've faced are indeed non-leftovers (Specs, Scarf or Life Orb).

 

[Septen]

I'll ask something that could go in the "ask a question" thread, but I'm sure you'll see the point of my question : does the perish song go trough the substitute ?

 

[Dragontamer]

That... is a good question. But the more important question is...

Does Mean Look go through substitute?

It does not. So in fact, you're safe if the sub/protect combo is up.

Just forcing this walrein to switch out doesn't help, because as soon as your wall comes in to absorb a hit... Walrein is coming back in.

 

[Oxygen]

I thought Protect can fail even when you use it every other turn. I don't think 32 turns is guaranteed.

 

[Swimrunner]

only if used on successive turns, not every other.

 

[Steven718]

If you protect/sub/protect/sub or anything in between protects it has a 100% success rate, it only drops to 50% for the turn if you attempt it twice in a row.

 

[ZinkOxide]

Does Walrien take full damage from Grass Knot? I can see something like Plot Azelf possibly breaking your subs, Plotting on the Protect, and KOing with GK turn 3, although it's so puny Surf might be able to kill it before it's done.

 

[ZinkOxide]

Does Walrien take full damage from Grass Knot? I can see something like Plot Azelf possibly breaking your subs, Plotting on the Protect, and KOing with GK turn 3, although it's so puny Surf might be able to kill it before it's done.

Apparently I can't edit my posts, so I'm quoting. Damage calcs reveal Azelf w/ Life Orb before a Plot does 95.91% - 112.98%. So anyone who might carry Grass Knot needs to be Roared.

 

[Dragontamer]

Does Walrien take full damage from Grass Knot? I can see something like Plot Azelf possibly breaking your subs, Plotting on the Protect, and KOing with GK turn 3, although it's so puny Surf might be able to kill it before it's done.

Unless you are running Leftovers... you die to hail. And Azelf running leftovers == way too specific a counter. Seriously, anything can OHKO Azelf at this point, and not running scarf / specs / life orb is making a serious disadvantage.

Apparently I can't edit my posts, so I'm quoting. Damage calcs reveal Azelf w/ Life Orb before a Plot does 95.91% - 112.98%. So anyone who might carry Grass Knot needs to be Roared.

Hurrah. Dies to hail sooner. Nasty Plot all you want.

 

[ZinkOxide]

Azelf might not be a good example due to fragility, but it's still a threat IMO. Specsmie does 94.95% - 111.78%, and it certainly won't be dying to Surf in one hit. If it comes in on Protect, it can break the Sub, survive the Surf, and have a chance at OHKOing. I need to run a few more calcs however.