Metagame 350 Cup

I've been waiting for so long for this to be playable again, I never stopped voting for this each month, so its really paid off.
Anyways, 1 Core:



Vibrava @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Toxic
- Recover

These 2 are core together. Vibrava's EV Spread lets it outspeed everything up to base 120s, including Choice Band Darumaka, Cranidos and Pawniard, in which you can chipped it down to the point its teammates aren't threatened much and also forces the former 2 to take another unnecessary recoil ( in case Cranidos is Band Head Smash or Darumaka potentially gets Hustle miss ). Ho-oh appreciates Vibrava's Defog support and its capability to check Rock-Types. LO variants uses Toxic to cripple walls like Hippopotas and Slowpoke, which can potentially beat it 1v1; Hippopotas rarely runs Rock coverage, and if it did, it can't either set up rocks or phaze a sweeper and Slowpoke's Scald does nothing to Ho-oh's high special bulk due to its low Special Attack stat.

0 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 102-120 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (lol, what's supereffective?)

Ho-oh can be a defensive set as well, to deal with Rock setter that Vibrava might get troubled dealing with, notably Clefairy. These 2 are capable of checking most Pdon sets, with Vibrava handling Rock-Coverage Pdon and Ho-oh handling mixed HP Ice. Though Vibrava is still the safest switch-in and if Pdon is revealed to have HP Ice, then Ho-oh can wall it most of the time as mixed HP Ice set don't run Rock-coverage often.

And few Sets with slight EV Spread:


Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

Max Speed lets you outspeed Adamant Necrozma-DM, if that's not your concern, then 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe and Adamant should be used, with enough Speed to outspeed uninvested 90s such as Mareanie, Primal Groudon and defensive Ho-oh. And Yes, Thick Club is allowed in this format, but why though?

Cubone is relatively slow, it will almost need to take a hit before it can act and is proned to getting chipped down due to lack of recovery and Leftovers.

252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spritzee: 190-225 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 156-184 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 61.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Even with Thick Club boost, Cubone still fails to 2HKO bulky walls without an SD boost. And even if it tries to SD, they will often tank a hit



Clefairy @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Knock Off / Thunder Wave / Calm Mind / Fire Blast / Wish

While it has lesser bulk than Spritzee on the physical side, Clefairy provides a great utility moves that can also free from others from a certain role, for instance, running Stealth Rock allows Pdon to run a more offensive set.

24 SpD prevents Life Orb Abra from 2HKOing Clefairy after a round of Leftovers.

252 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Clefairy: 216-255 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
There's no Stealth Rock here as Clefairy has Magic Guard
 
With Grimer-Alola being the monster it is, Abra and Gastly are both very underwhelming in the meta right now. They straight up lose to a Grimer-A in the opposing team, except with higher-level predictions or baits, which rarely work given any grimer-a user will know to make sure it survives until it took out abra and gastly. Their status as A+ feels meh.

Pawniard not being S-Rank is ridiculous. The mon can wreck most stall teams on its own once it comes in, against offense and webs it gets auto +2 and 2hkos most of the meta, including but not limited to:
Pdon (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon-Primal: 191-226 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO )
Hippopotas (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 289-341 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ) Arceus (nature irrelevant) (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Ground: 259-305 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO )

This is ignoring the fact it has sucker punch and can proceed to kill most mons it previously weakened.
Against non-Webs offense Pawniard is still a major threat because of existent bulk being what it is (albeit not the best) and tanking hits from some of the bigger defensive walls like Hippopotas and Slowpoke (both of which fail to take it out with EQ / (Hp Fighting/Fire Blast)) and in the entire meta, only a handful of mons can safely come in on Pawniard to KO it. Primal Groudon being Primal Groudon is one, but only the defensive variants as offensive groudon gets 2hko'd by knock off sucker punch, stufful can come in but then you'd have to be running a stufful, an otherwise pretty damn bad pokemon. Within the current meta, there's aproximately 2 Pokemon that do not get 2hko'd by Pawniard if it gets off the +2.
Pawniard is definitely capable of dealing with the majority of the meta, especially comparatively to the current S-ranks of Spritzee and Primal Groudon - It's definitely the biggest threat alongside Cranidos in my opinion
 
Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 88 HP / 244 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def
- Psychic
- Counter
- Anything

I was using Counter Abra to try and dunk on Grimer-Alola who switch in on you then use pursuit. But I kept finding that they would survive the Counter with like 10% and pick me off with Shadow Sneak the next turn which kinda sucked. Admittedly you can predict their switch in and chip them with something before doing the counter but that is prediction reliant and necessitates you running Dazzling Gleam or something to actually do enough damage (shadow ball doesn't do enough to put it in Counter range if it has leftovers OR AV). So I came up with this nifty little EV spread, which allows you to always OHKO the opposing Grimer-Alola with Counter if they bring you down to one HP from full, so that way you never need to predict the switch-in, and you don't need to run Dazzling Gleam if you don't want to. Also it lets you survive being revenge-trapped (if they send in Grimer after you get a kill with Abra). The speed EVs is just enough to outspeed Staryu and Buneary and the rest is in special attack. Overall the is the best set for Abra to try and get an edge against Grimer-Alola, I think.
 
Last edited:
At this point Pawniard is proving to be by far the most annoying mon in the meta.

252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Timburr: 211-250 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- 23% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spritzee: 291-346 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 330-393 (58.5 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Kills w/ 2nd knock)
252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shieldon: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Swords Dance OR counter-webs Pawniard:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 195-230 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Can't switch in w/ item)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Casual 2HKO on Pdon)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 231-274 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This + Koff on Switch)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Low Kick (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndour: 299-354 (82.5 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (resists stabs but)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 354-416 (100 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (nope)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pawniard Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Ground: 368-434 (82.8 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tl;dr there is close to nothing that can come in safely on Pawniard without getting 2hko'd or threatened to all hell. In the case of Arceus the best it can hope for is coming in, taking the lowkick, and predicting the sucker punch so it can kill/recover depending on the read. That's not a healthy situation for 1 mon to be in.

It would be a different thing altogether if we were talking about a mon that is easily KO'd, but even that is not true:

252+ Atk Slowpoke Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 322-380 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Hippopotas Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 222-264 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hippopotas Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 288-342 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Slowpoke Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pawniard: 292-344 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (if you were hoping your slowpoke could kill, it can't. Even if it could, though, pawn outspeeds anyways. Or gets +2 from webs and ohko's.)

Pawniard is an unhealthy menace for the meta, is walled by nearly nothing unless very specific niche sets that have no business being run or force a player to be underprepared for the other menaces of the meta in Cranidos (Hippo, Slowpoke) Abra/Gastly (Arceus-Ground, Grimer Alola), Primal Groudon.

In the end Pawniard forces a player to bring a very selective amount of mons, most of which aren't even a guaranteed counter and at best revenge Pawniard with moderate success (not accounting for the fact it can just switch out).
This list includes but isn't limited to Houndour, Mienfoo, Timburr, Primal Groudon, Arceus-Fighting, Stufful (who works surprisingly well in some situations).
 
Cranidos and Pawniard are pretty dumb and I honestly think they should go, both are insanely hard to switch in wallbreakers or are capable of adapting to what checks they have currently.

Cranidos

:sm/cranidos:

CB Cran is stupid. It has very few counters, most of which are taken on by other Pokemon in the metagame as well and are also forced to recover early. Examples of this are timid Arceus-Ground, Hippopotas, and Zygarde-C - not only is this a short list but it's also a list that's capable of being adapted to quite easily. Offensive checks also include Mienfoo, which whilst very good isn't exactly capable of stopping Fightinium Z + RP or is capable of taking a CB Superpower either. In general I feel like Cran is too punishing for what switches it manages to get, even with its middling speed tier.

Pawniard

:sm/pawniard:

Aside from fast Arceus-Ground and defensive Primal Groudon this thing barely has checks either. Not only is it capable of running Low Kick to stop some of these switchins from being consistent but its capability to prevent any sort of hazard counterplay, its decent bulk and capability to revenge kill with Sucker Punch makes it even worse than Cranidos to deal with long term. Steelium can also be used to get grounds that aren't Primal Groudon out of the way, Darkinium KOs itemless Slowpoke without the need for a boosted Knock Off, and Fightinium hits the lesser used Steels that can soft-check like Ferroseed. This variance makes it daunting to deal with in practice and I would like to see it, alongside Cranidos banned.
 
Pawniard @ Darkinium Z /Life orb/Steelium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off/low kick
- Sucker Punch/ low kick
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head

early gen 7, this mon very very VERY overlooked due to the fact that it had alot more pressing matters that took too long to be fixed (trapping in general/birds) these 2 elements really placed pawniard in a really awkward position because no one wanted to use a steel that gets 2hko'd by a brave bird, this mindset was fairly common and no one used pawniard as much as now, the trappers were way too much even for pawniard because even goth/wobb etc still shitted on this mon regularly along with trapinch. one could say that time in the meta wasnt very healthy for pawniard and it never really excelled in that environment. however those elements are long gone and pawniard is more broken than ever, ur best bet is zygc at this point and pawniard gets too much "free turns" to get up an SD due to mons like clef/spritzee/slowpoke/agrimer etc most of the defensive counterplay in the meta is often dead weight vs pawniard. we cant hard to trapinch anymore. this mon really needs to go and a suspect is needed or even a quickban. its too strong and the amount of pressure it gives is just too much in the current state of the metagame.

Cranidos @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force/mold breaker for the flex
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Rock Slide/head smash
- Superpower

Cranidos @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Rock Slide

Cranidos @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Rock Slide
- Ice Beam

well, i have been going over this mon and screaming in this thread back when it got omotm to seriously ban or suspect this mon, its straight up broken. it was broken before and its still broken. 250 att just speaks for itself especially with sheer force life orb, like this point this mon has no walls and that meme set with ice is NOT A MEME ok, that actually kills mons like hippo/zygc while still getting ohkos on everything else. not sure what else i can say on this because i have laid out basically everything about this mon in the past and theorized that both of these mons will become overwhelming in the future whenever traps/birds got banned and that happened. these mons are way too powerful atm.

About the vr,
i would want to post my changes on vr but as many players has expressed there feelings about it. i felt like it really needs a complete fix atm. theres so much that needs to be changed there.
cran/abra/gasty/pawn/mien/agrimer are all being overlooked on that vr and they all have the potential to be srank.
people say that gasty/abra arent s rank material but honestly agrimer being added just make them worse, all it did was gave us an answer to those mons because they were banned last gen simply because they were too strong and they had no counterplay. the addition to agrimer does affect there ability to freely sweep teams now but it doesnt make them "bad" both abra and gasty can beat agrimer its just not like the previous gen where u can fire off psychics/sballs freely without a care in the world. there's alot of debate about those mons and i believe that agrimer doesnt "hurt" abra/gasty as badly as people think because its a single mon thats preventing those 2 mons from being banned atm.
and ofc mienfoo has gotten a big boost in usage lately mainly due to the trap ban, i believe this mon really benefit the most from the previous bans because literally no one ran mien before and now its a really good regen mon/pivot that can actually be used and even timbur has gotten a rise.
the only fighting type that had the spotlight for so long was scaggy even with all the fairies being spammed it was a threat due to steel/poison/psychic z. glad to see mien taking that spotlight. agrimer hasnt really changed since the last time 350cup was omotm, it still performs that trapper role but this mon is alot more important in this state of the meta than it ever was atm and people aren't seeing this because only takes a bit of chip to auto lose to abra/gasty but i would have to say its most likely the most lackluster out of the mons i have mentioned.

closing thoughts about 350 cup,
glad to see it back :psycry:
 
Last edited:
About Cranidos tho... 250 atk is just hilarious, but Ferroseed and Shieldon exist, both having the same hilarious defenses. For Ferroseed, it tanks a rock slide or even a head smash like a boss, and I normally switch to Vibrava and tank a fire punch and outspeed and kill with EQ. Maybe it's just that I'm using Vibrava so I don't see Cranidos as a threat, but that's like the only mon (2 mons) that can reliably take out a Cranidos. It also gets rock polish, which makes it effectively only killable without dying, by sashes or Pawniboss sucker punch.

Then to Pawniboss, although it's only 170 atk, comparing to Cranidos looks little right, but it gets knock off, pursuit, sucker punch, iron head and swords dance that makes it very unpredictable. There are life orbs choice bands z moves versions AND DEFIANT. LIKE I GET 1446 ATK ON SWITCH IN HALF THE TIME AND KILL ANYTHING IN THE FACE. Unlike other offensive threats like Abra and Gastly which gets zero defenses, Pawniboss has 140 defense stat alongside huge offensive pressure. Well you can stop it with a Spritzee if u can read their minds, but it basically dominates the meta unhealthily.

Other major threats in the meta are namely Abra, Gastly and Grimer-Alola, but I don't think they deserve a ban or what. Grimer-A is blessed with excellent typing and stats in 350cup, but it can be checked with strong neutral wallbreakers, which is pretty abundant here imo. It is also able to check Abra and Gastly nicely, which would otherwise become overpowered. Abra and Gastly also checks each other by speed tiers. These two, as mentioned above, is super fragile and can easily die to priority, surprise scarfs, or switch predictions. I think their places in a+ rank in the current meta is pretty nice, in other words, 'healthy' in the meta.

In conclusion, BAN CRANIDOS AND PAWNIARD CUZ THEY ARE TOO UGLY (but well they rly are imo)

Overall a very diverse meta with plenty of new metas being viable!

Well with Pawniard being what it is I guess I gotta change my profile pic now(¬_¬)ノd5a72km-8b54acdd-5408-45b6-86bf-c9a163fc02e5.gif
 
Last edited:
I think some people were looking for a Sample Team in 350 Cup, and there's still none at the moment. SO, I've decided to post mine that had still get some decent success, made it to 1400 once more on my new alt
( made one because I didn't realized it still uses the old ladder, and I lost a first match and kicked me out from 1400 in my main :psysad:. )

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Overheat
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Toxic
- Recover

Vibrava @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog

Grimer-Alola @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Clear Smog
- Pursuit

Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Fire Blast
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Spritzee @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy
Roles ( and this Team compare to my old one )
: The main rock setter. ( Changed Lava Plume with Overheat for strong damage output )
: The main wallbreaker ( Changed Rufflet to Scarf Yveltal cuz Rufflet is banned, but i couldn't remember why i used Yveltal, then i eventually changed it to Ho-oh )
: The main Defogger and pivot. Changed EVs to be faster than Pawniard, Cranidos and Band Darumaka.
Alola Form
: Pursuits Gastly and Abra. Spreads poison with Poison Touch, provides Knock Off support and occasionally Clear Smogs boost ( particularly, Xerneas ) outside of trapping.
: Staravia switch-in, secondary Abra check, Fire blast mainly for Magnemite. Runs Judgment over Iron Head to kill Cranidos, which is good with a given speed EV to outspeed it.
: Cleric and Wish support, which Pdon and Grimer-A needs.

This is nearly the same team I've used a long time ago, back when the last time 350 Cup was Leader's Choice on April 2018, but with few adjustments I made even before this October.
Also, Its kind of sad that both 350 Cup Leaders are still absent... ( they're last seen on May and July... :psysad: )
 
I can echo the worries of other people here. Pawniard and Cranidos are indeed wallbreaking monsters, but are very held back by their speed. I think however that defensive Timburr is awfully underated, especially with wish support from Spritzee.

Cranidos is unable to 2-Hit KO Timburr even with band, except with the non-existent zen headbutt or Head smash. Head smash puts it in range of non invested flame orb boosted mach punch, however.
252+ Atk Choice Band Cranidos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Timburr: 202-238 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Timburr: 148-175 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Furthermore, Knock Off gives it great utility and Facade gives it a neutrally resisted way to hit most mons. Where Timburr truly shines, however, is against Pawniard:

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Timburr: 237-280 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Timburr is able to deal with even the strongest hits Pawniard can deal and to get life back with drain punch or, given prior chip, to always OHKO it with Mach Punch.

0 Atk Guts Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 544-648 (169.4 - 201.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Guts Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 292-348 (90.9 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

I would also like to point out that Sp. Def. Arceus-Dark is a great mon against the multiple psychic and ghost-type mons of the meta, with the exception of choiced ghastly, which can 2-Hit KO Arceus but has to lock itself into it's poison-type STAB which leaves it open to a switch in from a pursuit Pawniard or a Specs Analytic Magnemite.
 
if im not mistaken the most hard hitting cranidos with zenheadbutt still fails to ohko ur timburr

dude thats stupid

btw agrimer just does wat arceus dark does but much better
 
Arceus Dark can defog, has greater Sp. Def and doesn't have a somewhat crippling ground weakness. It is mostly viable in particular teams, though in general, as you say, A-Grimer is just better, with it's fairy and fighting neutrality (although the second one is negated by having a Spritzee).
You're also right about zen headbutt, thus why I said only zen headbutt and head smash can 2HKO.
 
I can echo the worries of other people here. Pawniard and Cranidos are indeed wallbreaking monsters, but are very held back by their speed. I think however that defensive Timburr is awfully underated, especially with wish support from Spritzee.

Cranidos is unable to 2-Hit KO Timburr even with band, except with the non-existent zen headbutt or Head smash. Head smash puts it in range of non invested flame orb boosted mach punch, however.
252+ Atk Choice Band Cranidos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Timburr: 202-238 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Timburr: 148-175 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Furthermore, Knock Off gives it great utility and Facade gives it a neutrally resisted way to hit most mons. Where Timburr truly shines, however, is against Pawniard:

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Timburr: 237-280 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Timburr is able to deal with even the strongest hits Pawniard can deal and to get life back with drain punch or, given prior chip, to always OHKO it with Mach Punch.

0 Atk Guts Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 544-648 (169.4 - 201.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Guts Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 292-348 (90.9 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

I would also like to point out that Sp. Def. Arceus-Dark is a great mon against the multiple psychic and ghost-type mons of the meta, with the exception of choiced ghastly, which can 2-Hit KO Arceus but has to lock itself into it's poison-type STAB which leaves it open to a switch in from a pursuit Pawniard or a Specs Analytic Magnemite.
timbur isnt good enough to switch into pawniard or cranidos, u need to understand that once timbur switches into cranidos and takes 50, all cranidos does is switches into a timbur counter, which is clef/spritzee. timbur has no reliable recovery either. its pretty much deadweight vs cranidos and pawniard so being unable to 2hko timbur doesnt mean timbur is an answer to these mons. the closest answer we have is hippo/zyg-c thats it
the problem with this situation is that no one will stay in on a timbur after timbur switches into crandios/pawn so those calcs dont represent the true problem
 
Well, that's true. It's unfair not to refer that it is hardly a counter but rather a check. Together with hippo, pawniard and cranidos are non-problems but it does go to show how centralizing they are, requiring two dedicated defensive walls on the other side.
 
Well, that's true. It's unfair not to refer that it is hardly a counter but rather a check. Together with hippo, pawniard and cranidos are non-problems but it does go to show how centralizing they are, requiring two dedicated defensive walls on the other side.
Lol. Actually got a chuckle out of me irl.

Hippo dies to 2hko +2 knock off (which if you run webs is auto, otherwise requires timing) so who cares. Timburr on the other hands gets hit with iron head and then pawn swaps out. Cool, you got pawniard out. But that's the point, pawniard can come in on a lot, is a reliable mon that can come in at any stage of the game, and can break its checks on its own, even if it doesn't have to because the rest of your team can prepare the stage. That's ignoring the fact that you can run pawn AND cranidos at which point your timburr, which still isn't coming in reliably mind you, dies to 1 of them and then the other one sweeps.
The notion they're non-problems just because you have exactly 1 mon in the meta that isn't outright 2hko'd.

Saying all of this, there's a couple fundamental points you're ignoring.
A: Pawniard 2hko's Timburr with +2 iron head sucker punch, which outspeeds mach punch.
B: 252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Timburr: 384-452 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
C: 252 Atk Choice Band Cranidos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Timburr: 221-260 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

I'm not entirely sure what you were thinking when you made the claim that Cranidos can't kill Timburr, but it can. Zen headbutt is more than common enough (Head smash | Rock slide, Zen headbutt, Superpower, EQ) and ferroseed/shieldon are non-issues in a meta where pdon is a thing. You literally do not need other moves. (252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spritzee: 255-300 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) iron head is not necessary.

"Two defensive walls" literally aren't enough to guarantee you can take out pawniard and cranidos.
 
ok now u guys stop becuz playing a game isnt just as simple as u think. there are switching predicting and much more that affect all these calcs and not every mon is at full hp or what so like u dont say 'ferroseed and shieldon are non issues when pdon is a thing' u r just idle theroizing ok
 
ok now u guys stop becuz playing a game isnt just as simple as u think. there are switching predicting and much more that affect all these calcs and not every mon is at full hp or what so like u dont say 'ferroseed and shieldon are non issues when pdon is a thing' u r just idle theroizing ok
Shieldon and Ferroseed are bad Pokemon in 350 cup.
Shieldon as an amazing example has 86 attack. It's not doing jack when Pdon comes in, it's not doing jack to pawniard, it's not hurting anything, the only thing it can do is click toxic and die to other steel types that aren't useless.
Ferroseed, while in a better spot and easily outclassing shieldon, suffers from the simple issue that it is 4x weak to fire, the one type that nearly any mon runs for coverage, and fighting, the second type the top threats carry.
Pdon "existing" in 350 cup is simply the #1 reason these mons suck as walls for the tier, it's not the sole reason they're bad, just the main one. Abra and Gastly annihilate them with HP fire, especially Abra likes to carry that and if it doesn't, it has HP ground for Grimer. Gastly being in the same boat, neither of them cares much.

So what are Ferroseed and Shieldon doing?
Not to mention, if you had read the posts I've made, you'd have seen I actually included shieldon getting killed easily by pawniard and cranidos.
 

drampa's grandpa

DRAMPA CONFIRMED
is a Pre-Contributor
While Cranidos is incredibly strong and potentially suspect worthy I think we may be overemphasizing its strengths.

Cranidos
1) cannot do all the things we have discussed at once. It has the tools to beat basically anything switching in if it really wants to, but it can't run Rock Polish, SD, Ice Beam, Rock STAB, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, Superpower, etc. all at the same time. While we have been heavily framing this as Cranidos CAN pick what walls / beats it I'd also like to mention that it is FORCED to do this. A scouted Cranidos is much less of a threat because it is much more likely that you will be able to wall it without randomly dying.

2) is significantly less scary to offensive playstyles due to their ability to pick it off with priority or scarfers. The only sets offensive teams have to watch out for are Scarf and Rock Polish, both of which are less common than pure breakers in my experience and less effective overall. Cranidos isn't particularly fast and it's frail enough that it doesn't want to eat a hit from anything other than a bulkmon.

3) is beaten by Pokemon that are common for reasons other than that they beat Cranidos. Vibrava, Timburr, Hippopotas, and Slowpoke wouldn't go away if Cranidos was banned. They all check Cranidos to varying degrees, although all are beaten by something dos can run. Essentially; whether it's broken or not it's IMO not overcentralizing, because the counterplay to it is good and common and easy to slot one or even more of on a team.

On the other hand... there is no true Cranidos counter. At team preview a Cranidos is never NOT a threat, because it can run coverage or boost past every single Pokemon that wants to counter it. The closest we have is Hippopotas, which dies to Blizzard.

I'm not trying to say Cranidos isn't broken, isn't suspect-worthy, or isn't S rank material (IMO it's A+ and Pawn is the only S but w/e). But it's easy to get wrapped up in the positives and forget the drawbacks.
Sorry that I didn't include more calcs or replays I may edit some in later.
 
While Cranidos is incredibly strong and potentially suspect worthy I think we may be overemphasizing its strengths.

Cranidos
1) cannot do all the things we have discussed at once. It has the tools to beat basically anything switching in if it really wants to, but it can't run Rock Polish, SD, Ice Beam, Rock STAB, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, Superpower, etc. all at the same time. While we have been heavily framing this as Cranidos CAN pick what walls / beats it I'd also like to mention that it is FORCED to do this. A scouted Cranidos is much less of a threat because it is much more likely that you will be able to wall it without randomly dying.

2) is significantly less scary to offensive playstyles due to their ability to pick it off with priority or scarfers. The only sets offensive teams have to watch out for are Scarf and Rock Polish, both of which are less common than pure breakers in my experience and less effective overall. Cranidos isn't particularly fast and it's frail enough that it doesn't want to eat a hit from anything other than a bulkmon.

3) is beaten by Pokemon that are common for reasons other than that they beat Cranidos. Vibrava, Timburr, Hippopotas, and Slowpoke wouldn't go away if Cranidos was banned. They all check Cranidos to varying degrees, although all are beaten by something dos can run. Essentially; whether it's broken or not it's IMO not overcentralizing, because the counterplay to it is good and common and easy to slot one or even more of on a team.

On the other hand... there is no true Cranidos counter. At team preview a Cranidos is never NOT a threat, because it can run coverage or boost past every single Pokemon that wants to counter it. The closest we have is Hippopotas, which dies to Blizzard.

I'm not trying to say Cranidos isn't broken, isn't suspect-worthy, or isn't S rank material (IMO it's A+ and Pawn is the only S but w/e). But it's easy to get wrapped up in the positives and forget the drawbacks.
Sorry that I didn't include more calcs or replays I may edit some in later.
I'd like to argue that that is only partially true.
Slowpoke dies to banded Head Smash (which, yes, is still a thing even if it's inferior to rock slide), webs makes offense teams risk getting outsped by cranidos, and the checks you list have already been nitpicked, especially timburr, to not be as effective as they seem.
That being said, Cranidos' banworthy aspect isn't it's immortal, it's that it's very abusable and doesn't need specific teammates, or even well-thought out ones, to deal with the mons that otherwise would deal with it. Have to stop typing now, whoops.
 
A team with Pure Power Medite, Flare Boost Drifloon, Intimidate Aerilate Salamence-Mega and other hard hitting stuff.

Meditite @ Psychium Z
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Psycho Cut
- Bullet Punch
- Fake Out

Drifloon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Defog

Cranidos @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Fire Punch
- Iron Head
- Rock Polish

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Lava Plume
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Swirlix @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 248 HP / 224 SpA / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Facade
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
 
Last edited:
I wanted to share the team with which I got 1st place in the ladder. It's Spritzee Hippopotas Balance with Magnemite as a wall breaker and Abra as a fast strong hitting pokémon, also being a physical set-up check.


It's got Timburr, a mon I've vowed for which takes care of threats such as Carvanha and Pawniard but is heavily reliant on wish support to keep going, due to the residual flame orb damage and coming into these moves from pokémon with such high attack stats. It's got a standard Alolan-Grimer for fairy set-up and psychic/ghost special attackers.

Magnemite is the definition of a wall breaker, being able to 2HKO non-defensive Pdon with flash cannon on the switch, and heavily dent or flat-out KO vibrava and hippopotas if they switch into the attack. Furthermore it provides huge momentum with Volt Switch, allowing Spritzee to come in and heal bell or wish, for Abra to CM up or just make a huge dent in something with Psychic, or A-Grimer to trap.

While it's got a great match-up against most teams, it is flat out destroyed by a well played Spikes Offense. It also struggles a fair bit against stall, though Taunt on Timburr, CM in Abra, Heal Bell and Wish in Spritzee and the existence of Magnemite allows you to break through.

As obvious, I'm completely open to suggestions. There is always the possibility of changing Magnemite to Magnet Pull to trap Ferroseed. I have alsothought about changing Timburr to Intimidate Hitmontop to alleviate spike pressure but I have to test that. If you see any other options, do post.
 
I wanted to share the team with which I got 1st place in the ladder. It's Spritzee Hippopotas Balance with Magnemite as a wall breaker and Abra as a fast strong hitting pokémon, also being a physical set-up check.


It's got Timburr, a mon I've vowed for which takes care of threats such as Carvanha and Pawniard but is heavily reliant on wish support to keep going, due to the residual flame orb damage and coming into these moves from pokémon with such high attack stats. It's got a standard Alolan-Grimer for fairy set-up and psychic/ghost special attackers.

Magnemite is the definition of a wall breaker, being able to 2HKO non-defensive Pdon with flash cannon on the switch, and heavily dent or flat-out KO vibrava and hippopotas if they switch into the attack. Furthermore it provides huge momentum with Volt Switch, allowing Spritzee to come in and heal bell or wish, for Abra to CM up or just make a huge dent in something with Psychic, or A-Grimer to trap.

While it's got a great match-up against most teams, it is flat out destroyed by a well played Spikes Offense. It also struggles a fair bit against stall, though Taunt on Timburr, CM in Abra, Heal Bell and Wish in Spritzee and the existence of Magnemite allows you to break through.

As obvious, I'm completely open to suggestions. There is always the possibility of changing Magnemite to Magnet Pull to trap Ferroseed. I have alsothought about changing Timburr to Intimidate Hitmontop to alleviate spike pressure but I have to test that. If you see any other options, do post.
Do not not not not change timburr to hitmontop. Ever.
Timburr's debatable position in beating Cranidos aside, it is the best check you have right now that covers both of them, hitmontop is either too weak defensively or has intimidate which enables Pawniard to deal with them.

Magnemite is the sole reason I run Chinchou a decent amount these days, it does the job of tanking magnemite well and stops its momentum with V. Absorb. Other than that, Magnemite as a breaker is a monster.
if I had to nitpick something it's that I would run Clear smog over Pjab on the grimer. You're already running Gunk shot and while pjab additionally can be nice, it makes dealing with some mons a bit more difficult, particularly stupid stuff like set-up Abra with sash which 2hkos with HP ground. It's admittedly a very niche use, and you generally won't need it, but it does clutch some games I guess. I feel it's a fair matter of taste.

All in all I feel your matchup against stall gets troublesome when spritzee and chinchou are on the same team, because they just tag out. Grimer-trapping spritzee obviously being pretty useless bar a poison from touch, I feel the underuse of Chinchou is the main reason this team's going to work well. Beyond trapping it, which could turn out badly because scald can burn your grimer, chinchou kind of plays around this team reasonably well, all in all, if you ask me.

Edit: I realize HP Grass is there to hit Chinchou, but it's only there as an option and not as a main move slot, so i'm saying it's risky not to run it. It's also an annoying move to get locked into if the player predicts you.

Also: Shell Smash Clamperl is why Clear smog is nice n.n
 
Last edited:
Do not not not not change timburr to hitmontop. Ever.
Timburr's debatable position in beating Cranidos aside, it is the best check you have right now that covers both of them, hitmontop is either too weak defensively or has intimidate which enables Pawniard to deal with them.

Magnemite is the sole reason I run Chinchou a decent amount these days, it does the job of tanking magnemite well and stops its momentum with V. Absorb. Other than that, Magnemite as a breaker is a monster.
if I had to nitpick something it's that I would run Clear smog over Pjab on the grimer. You're already running Gunk shot and while pjab additionally can be nice, it makes dealing with some mons a bit more difficult, particularly stupid stuff like set-up Abra with sash which 2hkos with HP ground. It's admittedly a very niche use, and you generally won't need it, but it does clutch some games I guess. I feel it's a fair matter of taste.

All in all I feel your matchup against stall gets troublesome when spritzee and chinchou are on the same team, because they just tag out. Grimer-trapping spritzee obviously being pretty useless bar a poison from touch, I feel the underuse of Chinchou is the main reason this team's going to work well. Beyond trapping it, which could turn out badly because scald can burn your grimer, chinchou kind of plays around this team reasonably well, all in all, if you ask me.

Edit: I realize HP Grass is there to hit Chinchou, but it's only there as an option and not as a main move slot, so i'm saying it's risky not to run it. It's also an annoying move to get locked into if the player predicts you.
I haven't ran the calcs but I assumed it wouldn't be enough. I actually forgot about Pawniard's defiant, which completely disqualifies Hitmontop as an option, even if it is able to run rapid spin. I completely agree with you.

I can very much see the point about Chinchou. And the option of HP Grass might actually be mandatory if it gains enough popularity. It also helps deal with the very rare Wooper, which similarly walls Mag. Regarding Clear Smog, I've actually updated the move immediately, seen as Fire Punch does little to Pawniard and Ferroseed with Grimer's relatively low attack and, while Poison Jab is good as a more accurate move and a greater chance of poison, Clear Smog provides greater utility against set-up Abra and Cosmic Power/Calm Mind Clefairy.
 
It is, but disregarding stats, intimidate buffering and fighting type as well as priority made worth the thought. Js, nothing lost from having an idea for a mon
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top