Other 6th Gen Pokemon UU Candidate Speculation Thread

[koista12]

When the dust settles, most of those pokemon will return to OU. Hippowdown will probably fall, especially if Ninetales and Politioed do also. Chaney might also fall if the sweepers in UU become powerful enough, and yeah Cloyster is debatable. The others I think will either eventually become OU again, or in Terrakion's, Keldeo's, Latias's and Manaphy's case be banned, even if they don't return to OU.

I realize this post is probably going to bring a lot of replies that UU for this gen is going to be more powerful than Gen V UU, and that we can't tell whether the tier's power level is going to be that high, but realistically, generational shifts aren't that extreme that top tier OU threats that could have been used in Ubers fall into OU. I mean, when you look at the transition from Gen IV to Gen V, most OU threats in Gen IV are still there in Gen V.

 

[sidakarya]

Latias, Keldeo, Deo-D, and Manaphy, are in fact working their way up to OU as today's statistics show. (but not Kyu-B... orz)

For some things on the fence of OU right now, it'll be interesting to see, where they end up. (I'm looking mostly at 1850+ stats, which is more relevant to metagame trends.) Salamence in particular - it's very low OU according to current calculations and in general december stats, but it's below the cutoff in 1850. It could either cling to bottom OU like Haxorus last gen, or altogether fall out of the OU-realm. Other things like Terrakion (on rise), and Galvantula (precipitously dropping) are somewhat easier to predict.

 

[Pyritie]

I was gonna post PO's UU ban list, but looking through it was complete stupidity. This basically sums it up.

OU: Bisharp, Galvantula, Kangaskhan, Klefki
UU: Kyurem(-B), Manaphy, Latias, Salamence, Terrakion, Chansey, Deoxys-D, Hippowdown, Keldeo, Cloyster (Debatable)

I still really think the cutoff should be more than 3.4% here. There's just so many pokemon nowadays that it's downright terrifying to see stuff like terrakion, deoxys, and even goddamn kyurem-b in UU.

 

[koista12]

Deoxys-D was in UU before, and I know a lot of people disagreed with its ban (I wasn't into pokemon at the time). It seems to me that its shut down by a fast Taunt. But yeah the stuff that is technically UU now is ridiculous.

 

[UsernameSayWha]

I still really think the cutoff should be more than 3.4% here. There's just so many pokemon nowadays that it's downright terrifying to see stuff like terrakion, deoxys, and even goddamn kyurem-b in UU.

I agree. They did this way too quickly as the standard metagame didn't even incorporate the Pre-Poke Bank mons, and because it's a new gen, people want to try out new stuff. Hell, the only reason Haxorus was even OU last gen was because he looked cool so people used him.

 

[6feetunder]

You people do realize that the current UU is unofficial, right? And how are PO tiers relevant anyway?

I don't see the point of complaining.

 

[AOPSUser]

I agree. They did this way too quickly as the standard metagame didn't even incorporate the Pre-Poke Bank mons, and because it's a new gen, people want to try out new stuff. Hell, the only reason Haxorus was even OU last gen was because he looked cool so people used him.

Haxorus was a boss before Kyurem-B existed and was the most powerful Dragon Dancer after that. There is nothing in UU, and I mean NOTHING, that can wall its Swords Dance set. Dragon Dance makes it even more of a monster, due to the Speed boost. In fact, after one Dragon Dance, Jolly Haxorus outspeeds literally everything in UU except Scarf Mienshao, unless Gengar, Salamence, Latios, Terrakion, or Jirachi falls to UU, or Cobalion or Virizion start Scarfing. It can also comfortably handle Scarf Cobalion/Virizion even at +1 Speed.

Barring drastic changes to UU, I don't think it would be able to handle Haxorus at all. Don't bring up Fairies either, they are utterly demolished.

 

[koista12]

We had this discussion a few page back, yes, everything from Gen V UU is at least 2HKOed by a set-up DD Haxorus, the new UU would have to gain Skarmory if we wanted to deal with it.

I think if Salamence and maybe Haxorus end up UU (which I don't think they will), then Flygon will drop to RU, the only reason it was OU in DPPt was because Salamence and Garchomp were banned.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Haxorus was a boss before Kyurem-B existed and was the most powerful Dragon Dancer after that. There is nothing in UU, and I mean NOTHING, that can wall its Swords Dance set. Dragon Dance makes it even more of a monster, due to the Speed boost. In fact, after one Dragon Dance, Jolly Haxorus outspeeds literally everything in UU except Scarf Mienshao, unless Gengar, Salamence, Latios, Terrakion, or Jirachi falls to UU, or Cobalion or Virizion start Scarfing. It can also comfortably handle Scarf Cobalion/Virizion even at +1 Speed.

Barring drastic changes to UU, I don't think it would be able to handle Haxorus at all. Don't bring up Fairies either, they are utterly demolished.

He was only a ''boss'' at early bw1, everything went downhill after that and kyurem-b drop was far from the only reason. Dragonite and salamence already gave it stiff competition and kyurem+garchomp dropping only made it worse. By the end of bw2 haxorus was a joke of a pokemon and a top contender for a drop had the generation lasted a little longer. The fact that nothing walls it is irrelevant as nothing walled it in ou either and he was still mediocre. With the possibility of salamence and hydreigon dropping you already have two scarfers more than capable of revenging dragon dance haxorus without effort, not to mention things like scarf mienshao, scarf flygon, scarf noivern and ice shard weavile. Hippowdon also does a fine job at handling non swords dance versions while sableye demolishes non lum berry versions. Also keep in mind that haxorus main problem was difficulty in setupping in first place and the possibility of a uu whose power level is not so different from last gen ou is not something it is going to enjoy. Seriously stop calling something ''too much handle'' before the tier even exists. There are a lot of factors to take in account when youre talking about how well a pokemon does in a tier and thats absolutely impossible to know correctly until the uu ladder is formed.

 

[AOPSUser]

He was only a ''boss'' at early bw1, everything went downhill after that and kyurem-b drop was far from the only reason. Dragonite and salamence already gave it stiff competition and kyurem+garchomp dropping only made it worse. By the end of bw2 haxorus was a joke of a pokemon and a top contender for a drop had the generation lasted a little longer. The fact that nothing walls it is irrelevant as nothing walled it in ou either and he was still mediocre. With the possibility of salamence and hydreigon dropping you already have two scarfers more than capable of revenging dragon dance haxorus without effort, not to mention things like scarf mienshao, scarf flygon, scarf noivern and ice shard weavile. Hippowdon also does a fine job at handling non swords dance versions while sableye demolishes non lum berry versions. Also keep in mind that haxorus main problem was difficulty in setupping in first place and the possibility of a uu whose power level is not so different from last gen ou is not something it is going to enjoy. Seriously stop calling something ''too much handle'' before the tier even exists. There are a lot of factors to take in account when youre talking about how well a pokemon does in a tier and thats absolutely impossible to know correctly until the uu ladder is formed.

Power is still power, and Base 147 Attack is nothing to joke at, and was nothing to joke at even towards the end of BW2. That said:

-We cannot assume Noivern will be UU. I personally think it will be OU, simply because it is so fast and has so many powerful moves. Also most people aren't going to Scarf him even if he ends up UU, only if you need a really good revenge killer.
-Haxorus always runs Lum Berry. Well, almost always.
-Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 174-211 (57.6 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Outrage OHKOes, but it has that nasty side effect)
252 Atk Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 226-267 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Haxorus is bulkier than most people give it credit for. Skarmory did a good job of handling Haxorus back in B/W, but I don't think that is dropping to UU anytime soon.
-Haxorus can run a Scarf or Band set too, it's not just there to set up.
-Haxorus has Mold Breaker, letting it break even more mons (Bronzong, for example)

The "possibility" of a UU tier with the same power as last Gen's OU? I don't think so. Unless Kyurem-B, Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Dragonite, and some strong Megas (Charizard X/Y, Pinsir) drop, which probably won't happen, it's not going to have the kind of power last gen's OU had. And if it did, it would be a pretty "drastic change".

 

[koista12]

If you want to see Haxorus's insane power, go to page 13. Granted, I did those calcs with Haxorus holding a life orb, but the point remains, he 2HKOes the tier. This is UU, not OU, no tiering shift is that drastic.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Power is still power, and Base 147 Attack is nothing to joke at, and was nothing to joke at even towards the end of BW2. That said:

-We cannot assume Noivern will be UU. I personally think it will be OU, simply because it is so fast and has so many powerful moves. Also most people aren't going to Scarf him even if he ends up UU, only if you need a really good revenge killer.
-Haxorus always runs Lum Berry. Well, almost always.
-Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 174-211 (57.6 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Outrage OHKOes, but it has that nasty side effect)
252 Atk Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 226-267 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Haxorus is bulkier than most people give it credit for. Skarmory did a good job of handling Haxorus back in B/W, but I don't think that is dropping to UU anytime soon.
-Haxorus can run a Scarf or Band set too, it's not just there to set up.
-Haxorus has Mold Breaker, letting it break even more mons (Bronzong, for example)

The "possibility" of a UU tier with the same power as last Gen's OU? I don't think so. Unless Kyurem-B, Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Dragonite, and some strong Megas (Charizard X/Y, Pinsir) drop, which probably won't happen, it's not going to have the kind of power last gen's OU had. And if it did, it would be a pretty "drastic change".

Oh, i'm sorry, i didnt knew you had a crystal ball, nevermind the fact that speculating is exactly what we should be doing here. Yes it was, it was the butt of all the jokes you can think of. One one hand you had dragonite easily getting to even +2 and salamence having the possibility of steamrolling with moxie while haxorus was just there as ''the thing that ohkos rotom without outrage''. My point is that theres no reason to assume anything is going to be overpowering in a nonexistant tier. Battles are far more than theorymon. If the tier end up being prepared for a threat due to the high usage of its checks it inst going to be overpowering anything, period. One thing is speculating about whether something will end up in the usage stats (and therefore tiers), which is exactly what this thread is supposed to be, and the other is trying to make a point about something being too much for a tier to handle when no one knows for sure what kind of metagame we are talking about.

 

[AOPSUser]

Oh, i'm sorry, i didnt knew you had a crystal ball, nevermind the fact that speculating is exactly what we should be doing here. Yes it was, it was the butt of all the jokes you can think of. One one hand you had dragonite easily getting to even +2 and salamence having the possibility of steamrolling with moxie while haxorus was just there as ''the thing that ohkos rotom without outrage''. My point is that theres no reason to assume anything is going to be overpowering in a nonexistant tier. Battles are far more than theorymon. If the tier end up being prepared for a threat due to the high usage of its checks it inst going to be overpowering anything, period. One thing is speculating about whether something will end up in the usage stats (and therefore tiers), which is exactly what this thread is supposed to be, and the other is trying to make a point about something being too much for a tier to handle when no one knows for sure what kind of metagame we are talking about.

We have a pretty good idea of what can handle Haxorus right now. And while we're speculating, I can also speculate that Skarmory will drop to UU. It probably won't anytime soon, but such is speculation, right? [/sarcasm]

We have a decent picture of the lower tiers--we at least know what won't be in them. The lower tiers will not have anything like Genesect, Kyurem-B, or Latios. It's just not happening. Stuff that can handle Haxorus very well, such as Skarmory, are not going to fall to UU. Hippowdon, sure. But it's not switching into a potentially Banded Haxorus, as CB Outrage will 2HKO it, before SR even. Stuff that can potentially revenge it at +1 include Scarfed Latios, Terrakion, Starmie, Salamence, Hydreigon, Gengar, Jirachi, and the rarer Scarfed Greninja or Noivern. Those that might conceivably fall into UU of that list are Salamence, Hydreigon, Jirachi, and Noivern. The former three can revenge, but Jirachi pretty much loses, and we don't know for sure they will fall. We sure hope they will, but we don't know.

Haxorus can also handle a surprising amount of revenge killers, as I showed above. I wasn't even aware that it could take Flygon's Dragon Claw. You are going to need SE attacks or REALLY powerful attackers (as in: REALLY powerful) to take it down, since it has to be holding a Scarf to revenge Haxorus.

What we know:
-Skarmory is the only thing that can hard wall Haxorus, and it probably won't be UU this gen.
-Scarf Flygon is the only thing from last gen's UU that can revenge kill a full health Haxorus.
-Potential drops that can revenge kill are: Salamence, Hydreigon, Noivern, Froslass.

The bottom line is, Haxorus is stupidly powerful. You can't wall it, and it takes a lot out of a lower tier to revenge kill it. Also, most of the mons that can "definitely" revenge it are Dragon-types themselves. Noivern doesn't like using Scarf, and Froslass uses Sash instead, and is a lead. Not to mention, Dragon Dance isn't the only thing it could do.

Also late last gen, it was immediately more destructive than Salamence after one boost, and it could still Swords Dance.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

We have a pretty good idea of what can handle Haxorus right now. And while we're speculating, I can also speculate that Skarmory will drop to UU. It probably won't anytime soon, but such is speculation, right? [/sarcasm]

We have a decent picture of the lower tiers--we at least know what won't be in them. The lower tiers will not have anything like Genesect, Kyurem-B, or Latios. It's just not happening. Stuff that can handle Haxorus very well, such as Skarmory, are not going to fall to UU. Hippowdon, sure. But it's not switching into a potentially Banded Haxorus, as CB Outrage will 2HKO it, before SR even. Stuff that can potentially revenge it at +1 include Scarfed Latios, Terrakion, Starmie, Salamence, Hydreigon, Gengar, Jirachi, and the rarer Scarfed Greninja or Noivern. Those that might conceivably fall into UU of that list are Salamence, Hydreigon, Jirachi, and Noivern. The former three can revenge, but Jirachi pretty much loses, and we don't know for sure they will fall. We sure hope they will, but we don't know.

Haxorus can also handle a surprising amount of revenge killers, as I showed above. I wasn't even aware that it could take Flygon's Dragon Claw. You are going to need SE attacks or REALLY powerful attackers (as in: REALLY powerful) to take it down, since it has to be holding a Scarf to revenge Haxorus.

What we know:
-Skarmory is the only thing that can hard wall Haxorus, and it probably won't be UU this gen.
-Scarf Flygon is the only thing from last gen's UU that can revenge kill a full health Haxorus.
-Potential drops that can revenge kill are: Salamence, Hydreigon, Noivern, Froslass.

The bottom line is, Haxorus is stupidly powerful. You can't wall it, and it takes a lot out of a lower tier to revenge kill it. Also, most of the mons that can "definitely" revenge it are Dragon-types themselves. Noivern doesn't like using Scarf, and Froslass uses Sash instead, and is a lead. Not to mention, Dragon Dance isn't the only thing it could do.

Also late last gen, it was immediately more destructive than Salamence after one boost, and it could still Swords Dance.

Youre absolutely completing missing the point of my post. We can keep this game up all day listing things we think that can or cannot check haxorus in an imaginary uu but at the end its irrelevant. The idea of this thread is speculating how the uu meta will turn out, this leaves zero room for trying to make a point about something being broken. Stop talking about how nothing walls haxorus or how you need powerful scarfers, no one cares, the metagame doesnt exist, it could or could not be prepare to handle it, but thats not the point of this thread. Its exactly how people were all like ''OMFG RAMPARDOS 165 ATTACK PLS BAN'' or ''OMFG RHYPERIOR MONSTROUS STATS BAN'' and we all know how that turned out.

 

[AOPSUser]

Youre absolutely completing missing the point of my post. We can keep this game up all day listing things we think that can or cannot check haxorus in an imaginary uu but at the end its irrelevant. The idea of this thread is speculating how the uu meta will turn out, this leaves zero room for trying to make a point about something being broken. Stop talking about how nothing walls haxorus or how you need powerful scarfers, no one cares, the metagame doesnt exist, it could or could not be prepare to handle it, but thats not the point of this thread. Its exactly how people were all like ''OMFG RAMPARDOS 165 ATTACK PLS BAN'' or ''OMFG RHYPERIOR MONSTROUS STATS BAN'' and we all know how that turned out.

...this is exactly what I'm doing, speculating. We know what can check and counter Haxorus already, we're just speculating how much of it will be actually in UU. "Could or could not" is exactly the point of this thread, because by your logic we shouldn't have this open at all, since you can't discuss Victini, Darmanitan, Aromatisse, etc. in an imaginary metagame either.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

...this is exactly what I'm doing, speculating. We know what can check and counter Haxorus already, we're just speculating how much of it will be actually in UU. "Could or could not" is exactly the point of this thread, because by your logic we shouldn't have this open at all, since you can't discuss Victini, Darmanitan, Aromatisse, etc. in an imaginary metagame either.

This is the thread for discussing which Pokémon will be part of this Gen's UU metagame.

This is the OP. Trying to speculate about haxorus being banned to BL is counterproductive and not the point of this thread.

 

[AOPSUser]

This is the OP. Trying to speculate about haxorus being banned to BL is counterproductive and not the point of this thread.

Exactly, and I'm discussing Haxorus IN UU. I'm not talking about it definitely being banned to BL or something, just that it's a bit much, given the Pokemon we currently know are not going to be UU anytime soon.

I can speculate Noivern will be either OU or UU, that's the point of this thread, after all.

 

[mertyville]

With that many Dragons we have had in OU and new dragons that have been coming in, and the addition of Fairy Typs, it is save to asume that once considered powerful dragons will see less usage. Like many others are guessing I am guessing Noivern and Haxorus, but also Kyurem-N might fall to UU thanks to no permanent hail. Some people will think I am insane for saying this, since 10 Turns Hail is more than plenty for Kyurem to destroy teams with Blizzard, but Hail being not permanent anymore is hurting it more than enough. In OU it has to compete with Kyurem-B and faster Dragons with better moves and speed.
And we also got the unique Zygarde.

 

[rachet67]

With the initial ban list for UU beta its obvious that some pokemon will regain usage once the OU metagame settles down. Best example is Keldeo. Its currently ranked A on the OU viability thread and its obviously going to leave UU at some point in the near future.

 

[koista12]

SmashBrosBrall has a bit of a point, in that we're speculating the UU metagame. That said, wht types do you think will be predominant in UU? Dragons, sure, but do you think fire and fighting types will still run rampant? Speaking of which, might Infernape drop? I didn't play OU, but I know that he was not used a lot in OU, and that he was predominantly used on sun teams. The weather nerf makes his fire STAB less potent, and two good faires, Togekiss and Azumarill, resist one or both of his stabs. Slowbro would be a good check, as well as Jellicent, if he drops.

 

[rachet67]

The OU ladder is currently completely glitched. For example the number 1, Hogapen has an ACRE f 3710 but has a win/lose ration of 32/39. Many other players have ridiculous acres in the same sort of ballpark with terrible w/l rations as well. I know that the higher ladder rank you are, the more influence you have on usage statistics. Could these bad players that are on top of the ladder due to it being fucked up, be throwing off the usage statistics? That would explain how smeargle is somehow OU while Keldeo is UU.

IF this is true, then when the ladder is fixed there could be a drastic shift in UU.

 

[noknuckles]

Haxorus is going to be scary because you don't know whether he'll attack or whether he'll set up. Fast Scarfers can come in on a DD and outspeed, but you never know if Haxorus is just gonna DClaw that Scarf Salamence switch-in, then try to set up some other time. A generally bulky pokemon like Slowbro may be able to take Hax one on one, but it will have a tough time switching in on a DD, THEN trying to beat a +1 Hax

There's the "I don't know if he's running band or SD or DD" thing, but even with predictable sets, you'll still need to make some risky plays to stop it.

 

[Machi]

Haxorus is going to be scary because you don't know whether he'll attack or whether he'll set up. Fast Scarfers can come in on a DD and outspeed, but you never know if Haxorus is just gonna DClaw that Scarf Salamence switch-in, then try to set up some other time. A generally bulky pokemon like Slowbro may be able to take Hax one on one, but it will have a tough time switching in on a DD, THEN trying to beat a +1 Hax

There's the "I don't know if he's running band or SD or DD" thing, but even with predictable sets, you'll still need to make some risky plays to stop it.

Frankly the one proving to be scary is Latias because of its defensive prowess very little can break through it, she is pretty much the all around check to majority of the possible suspects since she resists their main STAB, and difficult to wear down. While it does come across issues in that it is not as easy to run a mono-attack, since psychic or dragon have respective types immune to them, once you clear whatever stands in her way Latias just sets up with impunity and sweeps.

The other one I'm seeing is annoying is Thundrus-T since his speed tier allows his scarf set to more or less be this all encompassing revenge killer, outspeeding common 100 scarvers, complimented by his sky high SpA.

 

[PortugeseIntern]

seriously ratchet67's comment needs to be paid attention to.
in terms of uu, i think that at least half of the tier is going to be old ou threats, consequently pushing down a lot of uu pokemon from last gen. That kind of sucks because uu was really nice and balanced in gen 5. And if all of these pokemon keep moving down in tiers, will it be the rebirth of PU? or will NU get even larger than before?

 

[GDK]

The OU ladder is currently completely glitched. For example the number 1, Hogapen has an ACRE f 3710 but has a win/lose ration of 32/39. Many other players have ridiculous acres in the same sort of ballpark with terrible w/l rations as well. I know that the higher ladder rank you are, the more influence you have on usage statistics. Could these bad players that are on top of the ladder due to it being fucked up, be throwing off the usage statistics? That would explain how smeargle is somehow OU while Keldeo is UU.

IF this is true, then when the ladder is fixed there could be a drastic shift in UU.

smeargle is OU because shiny new sticky web, nothing more.