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A look at DP special walls

Everyone's been saying that the only reliable special walls anymore are Blissey and Cresselia. Fueled primarily by boredom, I set out to find some alternatives, and this is what I came up with: A list of possibly awesome special walls

We all know about Blissey. Cresselia is basically Blissey with limited recovery and more defense.


Empoleon: Notable mostly for walling CSmence.
Bibarel: Simple Bibarel can use Amnesia to add +4 to it's Spdf in one turn. It's not that high to begin with, but it's something.
Manaphy: Rainresting basically makes him impossible to kill, he's also an okay physical wall.
Brongzong: He has the same stat in both defenses.
Cradily: Sandstorm.
Mismagius: Can Calm Mind, has a bunch of immunities.
Togekiss: Boltbeam weak, but Wish makes up for it.
Lickylicky: High HP, decent special defense, Amnesia if you are so inclined, one weakness.
Dragonite: It's easy to forget that other than the glaring Ice weak, Dragon is a very good defensive type.

I'm probably missing a few, so what do you think will make a good special wall?
 
wtf are Dragonite, Togekiss and Bibarel doing on this list with Thunderbolt weakness on two of them, Ice Beam weakness on two others (one being weak to both, obviously) and horrible stats on the other one?

+4 Amnesia doesn't matter if you can't even switch into a special move in the first place.
 
Umbreon. I tried some damage calcs against CSmence and it does 51-60% to max sp. defense umbreon. That doesn't seem right. It seems like it would do more.

I dunno...
 
It seems as though Milotic and Suicune really dropped in popularity this generation.

Umbreon. I tried some damage calcs against CSmence and it does 51-60% to max sp. defense umbreon. That doesn't seem right. It seems like it would do more.

I dunno...

I did the same calculations and got the same results.

Max SpAtk Choice Specs Salamence's Draco Meteor vs Max SpDef/Max HP Umbreon: 51-60%
 
[iagnh] edited his post, it used to say "all of them".

Amnesia is a joke of a move. Special walls have to switch into attacks, not stall them out one on one or something with a mediocre base stat and a waste of a moveslot.

It seems as though Milotic and Suicune really dropped in popularity this generation.

Despite Milotic's stat lay-out screaming the opposite, she was always more of a physical wall - hence max HP/Defense with Bold as a standard EV spread. Water typing has no physical weakness at all, and with Recover and good HP Milotic does it fairly well. If you're wondering why we're wasting a Special Defense stat that nears 400 here, let's check the most common Special Attacks used:
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast: Milotic is resistant and hits all of their STAB users with SE damage. Stuff like Salamence with Flamethrower against Milotic is foolish, obviously.
- Thunderbolt: Milotic is weak to them. She shouldn't take the STAB ones unless she's Mirror Coating them back, and even Gengar's ones do 50% without SpDef investment. Even if you do so, you will be repeatly Recovering, fighting against the increasing odds of a CH or paralysis.
- Ice Beam: Milotic doesn't need any help taking these, like with Flamethrower
- Surf: see above

Then there's the fact piling on a stat that's already bloated gives you a less efficient outcome and voila. If Milotic is unpopular, it's not because of Special walling or anything.

Now, for DP, while there is technically no longer a physical and a special type side, the Boltbeam moves stayed the same, and the major physical threats are still there. Therefore Milotic didn't change much.

Yeah, just wanted to clear that up.
 
Regice still exists, but does fear things like Nasty Plot Inferape.
Uxie has nice special defence.
Snorlax did drop this generation, but it still does its job fairly well, it now just needs to invest more in special defence/HP.
 
That list is horrible... Do you even know what a special wall is?

I think first we need to define the threats a special wall faces. The physical/special dramitically changed special walling.

Special moves of note:

Normal:

Tri Attack, Hyper Beam

These are almost solely on PorygonZ. Normal special attacks in general are still lame and rare. PZ is a beast though, but unless it becomes common, Rocks/Steels/Ghosts don't make the best special walls.

Fire:

FT/FB/Overheat

These things tend to go on physical sweepers that want to say "up yours" to Skarm. Otherwise, only fire types pack fire moves.

Water:

Surf/Hydro Pump

Almost exclusively used by water pokemon, the exception being Salamence.

Electric:

Thunderbolt

Gets a lot of use on a lot of things. If you want to be a special wall, you'd best be nuetral or resistant to this.

Grass:

Energy Ball/Grass Knot/Solarbeam

Before the biggest threat was Giga Drain. Now that Grass essentially has a Shadow-Ball esque move learned by a number of different things, a Grass weak isn't really helpful. Grass Knot is an even bigger nightmare if your special wall is FAT. Solarbeam is still situational, but needless to say with Powerful Herb around, all a fire type needs to get a drop on you is one attack. Grass resistance preferred.

Ice:

Ice Beam, Blizzard

Ice Beam is the most prevalant, although Abomasnow's Hail might make Blizzard in cogue for those teams (or at least Abomasnow itself). Ice Beam is easily the most common special attack, so your special wall should be nuetral to/resist this as well.

Fighting:

Vacuum Wave, Hidden Power [Fighting], Pulse Bomb, Focus Blast

These are going to be nearly nonexistent on any fighter who isn't Lucario, but a few strange things like Togekiss get Pulse Bomb. HP Fite is great on Psychics who want to avoid getting crushed by Darks, but is still low power. Focus Blast is, to me at least, an untested element. On the one hand, 70% accuracy is pretty bad. However, 50BP is a significant boost from HP Fite's 70, and Pulse Bomb isn't commonly known, so there isn't a real good compromise for most between the two, other than Focus Bomb can be bought in Veilstone. Having a fighting weak probably won't be a big deal unless Togekiss or Special sweeper Lucario get some play.

Poison:

Sludge Bomb:

No special attacker bad your odd NP Crobat of Special attacking Nido will even bother with this, and Grass types are already weak to Ice Beam and Flamethrower, so this doesn't even register.

Ground:

Earth Power:

This is the most easily predicted special move. Flygon, Nidoking/Queen, Claydol, and Heatran are the only users that aren't in Ubers.

Flying:

Air Slash

The few things that do use it can use it fairly well. Charizard, Togekiss, Megayanma, and Scheme Crobat all have enough speed to abuse the flinch and enough SA to deal some damage as well. I wouldn't recommend a weakness here, but a resistance isn't crucial.

Psychic:

Psychic

Only Psychics use Psychic. Unfortunetely, most of them also have high SA, so being Kazam or Azelf weak is bad.

Bug:

Signal Beam, Bug Buzz

Almost solely confinded to Venomoth/Megayanma. Not a large priority.

Rock:

Ancientpower, Power Gem

I've yet to see anything use it. Don't worry about it.

Ghost:

Shadow Ball

This is bad news for Ghost weaks, now that Gengar can abuse its massive SA. Definetely be nuetral/resist this.

Dragon:

Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor

Easily the scariest because only Steels resist it. Fortunately, only Dragons are going to use Dragon moves with any regularity, since Dragon is only SE on Dragon itself.

Dark:

Dark Pulse

I don't see a big market for Dark Pulse other than Spiritomb, Shiftry/Cacturne, Houndoom, and Tyranitar. It is about the same as Shadow Ball, but more of the likely special attackers that get both (Mismagius, Gengar) get STAB on Shadow Ball. Most Darks are going to be enjoying physical Crunch this gen. The pokemon that do use it deal loads of damage with it, though.

Steel:

Flash Cannon

Probably a fleeting Empoleon/Magnezone/Probopass thing, don't expect to see it much.

Taking this into account, lets try this list again.

Blissey: 255 HP/135 SDef, THE Special Wall. Makes special attackers crap
bricks.

Cresselia: 120 HP/130 SDef means this can take quite a few hits. Weakness to Shadow Ball isn't looking too good for it though. Gengar has to dear Psychic, but Mismagius can raise some hell.

Snorlax: 160 HP/110 SDef. Yes, a few select things hit harder in DP like Azelf and the like. Choicespecs does hurt Snorlax here, but you can tell the difference in damage immediately while Snorlax is still alive, and be prepared in the future. Still takes UnStabbed special attacks like nothing else.

Regice: 80 HP/200 SDef, and nuetral to Boltbeam still make this an admirable special wall. Hasn't changed that much, and HP Fite barely dents it. Focus Blast could cause trouble, however.

Registeel: 80 HP/150 SD, Registeel's primary problem is that although it can eat special hits, it can't do much after it's in. Resistance to Draco Meteor is nothing to scoff at, but if it eats FB or FT instead it gets roasted.
Empoleon: 84 HP/101 SDef. Personally I see it as more of a special attacker, but Draco Meteor resistance helps a lot. It's problem is that it is weak to Tbolt and is Magnezone bait.

Magnezone: 70 HP/90 SD. This mainly gets off on the fact it resists Boltbeam, Shadow Ball, and Draco Meteor, and also posseses Light Screen and Mirror Coat. Its reliability as a wall is shaky, but it's a decent special attacker.

Bronzong: 67 HP/116 SD. Can eat Psychic attacks for breakfast and resists Ice Beam. Like Registeel it doesn't have offensive prowess, but it can offer a good support role.

W/Sandstorm: OK, the deal here is you need TTar or Hippowdon to really use these effectively.

Regirock: 80 HP/100 SDef. In Sandstorm this thing is ridiculously hard to kill from either end, and it has better attacking options than the previous Regi's. Its problem comes from a lack of resistances, but t does shut PZ down admirably.

Rhyperior: 115 HP/55 SDef. Solid Rock. This needs Solid Rock and Sandstorm to do any kind of special walling, but with both of those in effect and some vigorous SD EV's, this thing becomes a pain to take down. Grass Knot and Surf are still problems, but it takes unStabbed IBeams easily, and can OHKO damn near every special attacker.

Tyranitar: 100 HP/100 SDef. In addition to easily being a downright terrifying presense before, TTar was even further boosted this gen. It can deal with PZ and Boltbeam, but still takes a hard hit from Grass Knot and Surf. HP Fite on Psychics isn't good for it's health either.

Probopass: 60 HP/150 SDef. It was really too riddled with bad weaks to be put in the above list, but in Sandstorm this thing is an absolute nightmare for special attackers. Draco Meteor, Shadow Ball, and Ice Beam resist, Thunderbolt nuetral. HP Fite weakness is mostly dealt with, this thing LOLOLs at PZ, and Surf is the only thing that can still cause it problems. Give it Magnet Rise and the Nido/Flygon switchin will curse heavily at you. Block might come in handy here, especially if you can catch PZ in a Hyper Beam.
 
Special Walls are basically Blissey and Cresselia. SpecsMence rips through all the other ones except for Empoleon, and he can't take most other Special threats.

Bronzong and Cradily can attempt to wall, but Cradily is massively hurt by STAB Ice or Fighting attacks. Bronzong does better, except that stuff like Azelf can run Flamethrower to get rid of it. Do you really want to lose an EQ immunity, which makes you a superb Garchomp counter, just to be neutral to Flamethrower.

Also, most other special walls cannot take ScarfHeatran or SpecsTile. The have similar attacking stats to SpecsMence and are faster. Both use Stab Overheat or Leaf Storm as their main attack. Heatran would maul Bronzong and Sceptile can easily 2HKO Empoleon.

tl;dr: Blissey and Cresselia are the only two "blanket" special walls this generation. Others can cover certain threats, but not all of them.
 
I repeat again: why is DUSKNOIR being so forgotten in that list?

We can add Togekiss too. Is a good special wall support Pokemon (yeah, I know the BoltBeam weakness)
 
Despite Milotic's stat lay-out screaming the opposite, she was always more of a physical wall - hence max HP/Defense with Bold as a standard EV spread. Water typing has no physical weakness at all, and with Recover and good HP Milotic does it fairly well. If you're wondering why we're wasting a Special Defense stat that nears 400 here, let's check the most common Special Attacks used:
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast: Milotic is resistant and hits all of their STAB users with SE damage. Stuff like Salamence with Flamethrower against Milotic is foolish, obviously.
- Thunderbolt: Milotic is weak to them. She shouldn't take the STAB ones unless she's Mirror Coating them back, and even Gengar's ones do 50% without SpDef investment. Even if you do so, you will be repeatly Recovering, fighting against the increasing odds of a CH or paralysis.
- Ice Beam: Milotic doesn't need any help taking these, like with Flamethrower
- Surf: see above

Then there's the fact piling on a stat that's already bloated gives you a less efficient outcome and voila. If Milotic is unpopular, it's not because of Special walling or anything.

Now, for DP, while there is technically no longer a physical and a special type side, the Boltbeam moves stayed the same, and the major physical threats are still there. Therefore Milotic didn't change much.

Yeah, just wanted to clear that up.

I see. Thanks a lot for clearing that up. I guess I'd apologize for posting stupid stuff then.
Anyway, does the same apply to Suicune? Because in the analysis of the Advance generation about Suicune, it says you should use a Bold nature always. Is this because it should be focused on physical walling, more than on special walling, like you explained with Milotic, or is it because it can already boost it's SpDef with Calm Mind? I can imagine that it makes quite a solid wall when it's EV spread is focused on Def, and it packs Calm Mind to boost it's SpDef.

I could be entirely wrong here (again), but I'd just like to know this. I thought CMCune was very effective and popular last gen, but now I'm not completely sure anymore about why it was used the way it was.
Was it because with Calm Mind, it would make a solid mixed wall, as it's Bold nature and it's EV spread that was focused on Def made it's Def very solid, while Calm Mind did the same for it's SpDef?
 
it doesn't seem like it, but clefable could be a decent special wall. its new ability is an automatic taunt. it learns calm mind and cosmic power. it also gets moonlight and can learn a butt-load of special attacks that compliment it's decent sp.atk. A STABed psychic from an CSazelf will 2hko it after no CMs/CPs as well as a Specksmence draco meteor. the damage calculator that i use isn't the greatest, so i might be a little off. one major downside is no resistances and one immunity, but it can cover its main weakness (it learns psychic.) it can also do 101 subs with a few hp EVs.
 
it doesn't seem like it, but clefable could be a decent special wall. its new ability is an automatic taunt. it learns calm mind and cosmic power. it also gets moonlight and can learn a butt-load of special attacks that compliment it's decent sp.atk. A STABed psychic from an CSazelf will 2hko it after no CMs/CPs as well as a Specksmence draco meteor. the damage calculator that i use isn't the greatest, so i might be a little off. one major downside is no resistances and one immunity, but it can cover its main weakness (it learns psychic.) it can also do 101 subs with a few hp EVs.

1. Unless I'm mistaken, the "automatic taunt" doesn't work when the opposition uses a move on themselves, it's not as good as you'd think.

2. It can't do 101 HP subs, its maximum HP is 394, sorry.
 
I repeat again: why is DUSKNOIR being so forgotten in that list?

We can add Togekiss too. Is a good special wall support Pokemon (yeah, I know the BoltBeam weakness)

Dusknoir doesn't have any good resists to special attacks, and WoW makes it a better physical wall. Defensively, Pure Ghost isn't good for special walling. Ghost is immune to Normal and Fighting and resists Poison and Bug, none of which are common special attacks (they are common physical attacks though, thus why Dusknoir is there). It has a weakness to Ghost and Dark, which isn't good when you consider Gengar and Mismagius are floating around, both of which get to attack an incoming Dusknoir twice. Dark types also walk all over Dusknoir unless it has a properly timed Focus Punch. 45 HP also isn't that great, especially when Uxie and Cresselia have the same Special defense but a lot more HP. The Regi's and even Probopass have more HP and SD and better resists.

Togekiss is weak to both parts of Boltbeaml. It might have worked in Advance, but it is too slow to pull off Roost, and Choice Specs puts a damper on it. It also doesn't resist anything other than Shadow Ball or Energy Ball, which aren't the most common special moves to begin with, and switching Togekiss into Gengar or Mismagius is a dumb move.
 
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