I believe TI plans on instituting that next system, if the plan remains as it is currently, at the beginning of Generation VII, so presumably at the end of the year.
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A New Direction for Other Metagames
- Thread starter EV
- Start date
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Pretty much agree that they should just be placed in April instead of waiting until Sun and Moon. If we wanna talk precedent, STABmons and AAA did not wait till next gen to receive their own permaladders, I just don't understand why we need to wait. Inverse Battle and Tier Shift are only gonna get more dead as time goes on.
Nothing has been concretely agreed on, we haven't even discussed removing TS very much. Suddenly implementing the changes in April seems premature. Also i'm curious to see if Sketchmons retains its popularity, or if we see a decrease in battles.
Uhm, AAA and STABmons were added in the beginning of the gen, not in the middle of it. The whole point of permanent ladders is that they are permanent; they only change during new games/generations. In addition, it fucks up current C&C.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
I will need to look into the github, but iirc they were added permanently in May 2014. Maybe I am wrong but in any case these metas in rotation don't need C&C (like other metas such as 1v1, Monotype, and Inverse Battle don't have). They are in rotation, so there is no obligation to have analyses then lets say a permanent ladder would need to. Unless you are planning to place them as permaladders, I think C&C would be fine.
When he says it'll fuck up current c&e, he means that there's already a ton of AAA/STABmons stuff done, replacing them now means that all of that will just have been for nothing and all the work has to be taken down, leaving only BH/AG C&C. But, when you start next gen, all the old C&C will need to be redone anyway, so at that point, replacing them comes with no consequence bar a few sad face emoticons in the OM chat. Hope that makes sense. Also don't understand why you guys are pushing for this now when the date for the permaladders/rotation ladders being put in has already been given till next gen. Be a bit more patient imo.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Yeah C comes before B in my alphabet too
Well, I don't really have an answer other than personal preference. There was some logic behind it originally (such as main ones grouped, in-game ones grouped, random formats grouped, etc) but stuff changed like formats being removed or added and now it just looks random. I'll definitely improve the ordering as part of the changes.
I know this isn't important but why are they ordered like this? It's triggering my OCD.
If we can get anything in Gen 7, the reordering of these should be a top priority.
Please and thanks.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Or we can just get rid of some of them (cough Inverse and TS cough) and place new popular metas.
I know this isn't important but why are they ordered like this? It's triggering my OCD.
If we can get anything in Gen 7, the reordering of these should be a top priority.
Please and thanks.
P.S I know its planned, but I can't stress enough the issue here :)
it isnt even an issue and it's already handled so i dont know why you need to keep bringing it up not to mention in such a condescending way
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
I was kidding lol, don't take too seriously :)
MAMP
MAMP!
Just wanted to post about a few concerns I've been having recently. First is to do with the VIP posts thing. The original post says that
nv's post in Type Reflectors
Jajoken's post in Metagamiate
Darklatias92's post in Ability Unity
Mygavolt's post (spreadsheet) in Cross Evolution
In fact, all but 1 of the VIP posts follow this kind of formula. There's nothing wrong with these kinds of posts of course; they can be a very helpful resource and they undoubtedly require a lot of effort to put together, and that effort should be rewarded; it's just that I'd like to see a bit more variety in the posts that get VIP status. It'd be good to see more posts like Fiat500's post in Monotype Suspect Discussion get VIP: analytic, persuasive posts, that demonstrate an in-depth knowledge of the metagame and issue being discussed, and that put forward a reasoned, well-thought out argument. This would encourage greater levels of participation in suspect discussions, and I feel would lead to overall smarter posts. Here are some posts that fit that description, to give you an idea of what I mean (note: I'm not saying that these posts should get VIP necessarily, just examples of the style of post I'm talking about):
Zangooser's post about Mega Salamence in Megamons
Kingslayer2779's post in the BH Suspect thread
My second concern is a much broader one. Put simply, there are still far too many OMs being approved, and it's pulling focus away from the metas we already have. This was the issue that this thread was created to try and solve, but it's still a huge problem. The 'one submission per month' rule has done very little to stem the tide of metas that are created, pull attention for a couple weeks, and then die out. Looking back over the past few months, there is an average of about 5 metas being approved per month, and the number is only increasing - March saw a whopping 7 new metas posted to the forums, which I'm pretty sure is a record. This is the same as the numbers we were getting before the institution of the 'one per month' policy, proving that the change hasn't actually made any difference. Furthermore, heaps of the metagames created this year have already died out, and of those that haven't died yet I doubt many of them will last a lot longer. The reason for this is that the sheer number of metagames is simply saturating the forum. Metas are drowning each other out and are competing with each other for activity, which is detrimental to all of them. The solution to this issue is to be more strict about which metas are approved. The metas that are successful and stick around are those that are easy to understand, both conceptually and in practice, that change the metagame in an interesting and significant way, and that are unique. These are the criteria that new OM submissions should be held to, and more consideration should be made about whether metas will be actually be fun to play; I've seen way too many metas that seem cool on paper, but in practice just end up being too confusing, stupidly unbalanced, or just plain boring. This would lead to a significant reduction in the number of new metas getting approved, which would allow for more cultivation of the already existing metas, reduce the saturation of the forum with new metas, and raise the overall quality of the metas that do get posted.
and I'm fine with that, but in practice I've noticed that almost all of the posts that have been given VIP status have followed a similar formula - they're mostly long, comprehensive, encyclopedic posts that catalogue information and have lots of hide tags and pretty formatting. Here's some examples of what I mean:
nv's post in Type Reflectors
Jajoken's post in Metagamiate
Darklatias92's post in Ability Unity
Mygavolt's post (spreadsheet) in Cross Evolution
In fact, all but 1 of the VIP posts follow this kind of formula. There's nothing wrong with these kinds of posts of course; they can be a very helpful resource and they undoubtedly require a lot of effort to put together, and that effort should be rewarded; it's just that I'd like to see a bit more variety in the posts that get VIP status. It'd be good to see more posts like Fiat500's post in Monotype Suspect Discussion get VIP: analytic, persuasive posts, that demonstrate an in-depth knowledge of the metagame and issue being discussed, and that put forward a reasoned, well-thought out argument. This would encourage greater levels of participation in suspect discussions, and I feel would lead to overall smarter posts. Here are some posts that fit that description, to give you an idea of what I mean (note: I'm not saying that these posts should get VIP necessarily, just examples of the style of post I'm talking about):
Zangooser's post about Mega Salamence in Megamons
Kingslayer2779's post in the BH Suspect thread
My second concern is a much broader one. Put simply, there are still far too many OMs being approved, and it's pulling focus away from the metas we already have. This was the issue that this thread was created to try and solve, but it's still a huge problem. The 'one submission per month' rule has done very little to stem the tide of metas that are created, pull attention for a couple weeks, and then die out. Looking back over the past few months, there is an average of about 5 metas being approved per month, and the number is only increasing - March saw a whopping 7 new metas posted to the forums, which I'm pretty sure is a record. This is the same as the numbers we were getting before the institution of the 'one per month' policy, proving that the change hasn't actually made any difference. Furthermore, heaps of the metagames created this year have already died out, and of those that haven't died yet I doubt many of them will last a lot longer. The reason for this is that the sheer number of metagames is simply saturating the forum. Metas are drowning each other out and are competing with each other for activity, which is detrimental to all of them. The solution to this issue is to be more strict about which metas are approved. The metas that are successful and stick around are those that are easy to understand, both conceptually and in practice, that change the metagame in an interesting and significant way, and that are unique. These are the criteria that new OM submissions should be held to, and more consideration should be made about whether metas will be actually be fun to play; I've seen way too many metas that seem cool on paper, but in practice just end up being too confusing, stupidly unbalanced, or just plain boring. This would lead to a significant reduction in the number of new metas getting approved, which would allow for more cultivation of the already existing metas, reduce the saturation of the forum with new metas, and raise the overall quality of the metas that do get posted.
We've been discussing how a subforum where established metagames are cultivated thoroughly would benefit the community. I think that the only way that we can properly achieve this though what others have mentioned, by making the main subforum dedicated to already established metagames. We have the OM Archive, but I think having newer metagames in a section called "New Metagames" or "Other OMs" or something like that while making our permaladder metagames more easily accessible is the way to go.
It would generally be really nice if a random user clicked on Other Metagames out of curiosity and found a really clean subforum with ten or so high-activity metagames. I guess these metas would be something like the obvious BH / 1v1 / STABmons / AAA / TS / Inverse, then some fun stuff like Inheritance and MnM, and Mono, which could fit in once all the other metagames have similar amounts of forum activity to what it has now. That would be stuff like a functional Metagame Discussion main thread, which would be where suspects are run; a full VR thread for each metagame, and then community threads that run across multiple metagames, such as Good Cores and a Teambuilding Workshop. I think having this kind of environment would really benefit the community in general. The room would have more worthwhile things to discuss with active threads and metagames. The metas themselves would appreciate more voices of reason, especially those of skilled players, which would allow us to balance metagames faster and do important things (such as banning Kyurem-B) as well as increase ladder activity. Tours would receive more activity if they were easily visible and looked interesting and in well-established metas. Also C&C would get more writers which is really cool
edit: apparently AG deserves a ladder too
It would generally be really nice if a random user clicked on Other Metagames out of curiosity and found a really clean subforum with ten or so high-activity metagames. I guess these metas would be something like the obvious BH / 1v1 / STABmons / AAA / TS / Inverse, then some fun stuff like Inheritance and MnM, and Mono, which could fit in once all the other metagames have similar amounts of forum activity to what it has now. That would be stuff like a functional Metagame Discussion main thread, which would be where suspects are run; a full VR thread for each metagame, and then community threads that run across multiple metagames, such as Good Cores and a Teambuilding Workshop. I think having this kind of environment would really benefit the community in general. The room would have more worthwhile things to discuss with active threads and metagames. The metas themselves would appreciate more voices of reason, especially those of skilled players, which would allow us to balance metagames faster and do important things (such as banning Kyurem-B) as well as increase ladder activity. Tours would receive more activity if they were easily visible and looked interesting and in well-established metas. Also C&C would get more writers which is really cool
edit: apparently AG deserves a ladder too
Can we not call it that. That literally means "Other Other Metagames."
On a more serious note, I agree with you to an extent (that permanent ladder threads should be more visible and not lost in the clutter), but I disagree with selecting certain already-popular metas to bring to "the real forum" while the rest have to rot in a subforum. It makes sense for ladders, but why give preferential treatment to stuff like Mix and Mega? I have nothing against Mix and Mega, but why would that be in the same forum if you can't even play it on the main Showdown server most months of the year? And what criteria does a "new metagame" (or "other other metagame") have to pass before it comes to the main forum?
IMO we should just have a "Permaladders" subforum where everything that has a ladder or challenge format on the main server is separated off from unofficial metas. I'd rather not see unofficial metas dip into a subforum because I fear they'd end up like the Pet Mods subforum and we'd never get "the next Inheritance" because new metas won't see as much attention. Then again, the Monotype subforum does well for itself so who knows. In any case, if we divide it up, do it by ladder status (including OMotM) and nothing else.
MAMP
MAMP!
I feel like having the main OMs be the ones in the main forum is preferable; the point of making a change like this is to put more focus on those main metas and help cultivate and grow them. Shunting them into a side forum would have the exact opposite effect.
This quote gives me a nice segue into another, completely seperate point: Why is Mix and Mega not a challengable format on the main server? I'm pretty sure the point of having challenge-only formats on the main server is to provide people with an avenue to continue to play popular former OMOTMs that can't be played through custom game, a description that Mix and Mega fits to a T. Mix and Mega is literally the most popular OMOTM ever, it absolutely deserves a spot amongst the challengeable (how do u spell this word :1) formats. I'm told the reason that we can't have more challenge-only formats on PS is because of technical limitations or something, and if that is preventing Mix and Mega from being on the server then I feel it's absolutely justified for it to take the place of one of the current challenge-only formats, it completely eclipses all of them in popularity.
While having the "main" OMs stay in the main forum would make sense, I also think that carrying the less known and newer metagames in another subforum will get the effect of making them "disappear" and not gain enough attention and activity.
I think that placing the permaladders and battle format/popular metagames in a subforum would hurt them less than doing the same with the other lesser known and less active metagames.
To me it can go either way, to be frank, but I think that the Permaladders idea is a bit better.
Another thing that I believe should be considered is "stickying" the OMotM and LCotM. Having to search for the title "OMotM" among the clutter is quite inefficient and has the risk of making the chosen metagames not get enough activity and visibility. Having them on the top and replacing them at the end of the month with the newer choices should help those metagames gain more viewers and potentially help them develop a bit more, as well as some more popularity.
Mix and Mega is one of those formats that utilize more server resources. To respond to your question MAMP, quite frankly I didn't have the heart to remove any of the existing formats. Honestly, I was very close to replacing Averagemons with it after its OMotM ended.
If we were to separate formats, then I would definitely prefer main formats in the main forum and other stuff in a subforum. I would not consider the other way because the main formats should be the focus and should be easily accessible. I believe being in the main forum fits that.
Also, I agree that the permanent formats should be a focus and that we need to do something about the vast number of other/new OMs. However, only to an extent. We shouldn't be killing off other/new OMs and completely focusing on main ones. The idea is to increase resources for the permanent formats. Yes, we need to cut down on other OMs, but limiting it is not the answer. If we limited it, we might not have found Mix and Mega, or Inheritance, or any of the other successful OMs this generation has brought. We don't know what will be a success until we give it a try. MAMP we're pretty strict as it is. A very small percentage of OMs are accepted. It's just that there are tons of submissions so that small percentage results in seven a month, for example. I believe the answer to cutting down other OMs is to move them to the archive if they've failed. We shouldn't prevent new OMs; if the idea is good, then we should give it a chance. However, we shouldn't keep stuff in the main forum anymore if the community shows no interest in it.
If we were to separate formats, then I would definitely prefer main formats in the main forum and other stuff in a subforum. I would not consider the other way because the main formats should be the focus and should be easily accessible. I believe being in the main forum fits that.
Also, I agree that the permanent formats should be a focus and that we need to do something about the vast number of other/new OMs. However, only to an extent. We shouldn't be killing off other/new OMs and completely focusing on main ones. The idea is to increase resources for the permanent formats. Yes, we need to cut down on other OMs, but limiting it is not the answer. If we limited it, we might not have found Mix and Mega, or Inheritance, or any of the other successful OMs this generation has brought. We don't know what will be a success until we give it a try. MAMP we're pretty strict as it is. A very small percentage of OMs are accepted. It's just that there are tons of submissions so that small percentage results in seven a month, for example. I believe the answer to cutting down other OMs is to move them to the archive if they've failed. We shouldn't prevent new OMs; if the idea is good, then we should give it a chance. However, we shouldn't keep stuff in the main forum anymore if the community shows no interest in it.
I was essentially going to post the last part of TI's post in that I believe more inactive oms should just be moved to the archive as they fall out of favour. I also support MnM becoming a challengeable format replacing averagemons.
My initial idea was to possibly replace both ht and averagemons with sketchmons and mnm since they're both getting rotation ladders next gen, but since stabmons is still here and it somewhat clashes with sketchmons plus the fact that unlike the current challengeable omotm formats, it only won once, i think only mnm should get the challenge slot. Also, the reason i think Averagemons should go over hidden type because it has less overall plays in the server, hidden type currently has a daily slot + hidden type tours in the tour room itself is somewhat common.
My initial idea was to possibly replace both ht and averagemons with sketchmons and mnm since they're both getting rotation ladders next gen, but since stabmons is still here and it somewhat clashes with sketchmons plus the fact that unlike the current challengeable omotm formats, it only won once, i think only mnm should get the challenge slot. Also, the reason i think Averagemons should go over hidden type because it has less overall plays in the server, hidden type currently has a daily slot + hidden type tours in the tour room itself is somewhat common.
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Assorted points I'd like to respond to/add:
1) I suppose it doesn't really matter which half of the OM community ends up in the subforum, but if it has to be the non-ladder OMs, I'd like to propose a new system to give much-needed activity to unofficial OM threads without giving them a monthly ladder. Call it something like "(Bi)Weekly/Monthly OM Spotlight" or "Discussion Highlight" or something like that. Each [insert period of time here], the OM leaders or submissions-access-people pick one (or more!) promising unofficial OM thread from the subforum to place in the main forum for [period of time] with a fancy tag in the title. If its playable in some form on another server, then encourage the creator to run a tournament sometime during the [period of time]. It would be ideally be on a different/shorter cooldown the OMotM, and the goal would be to draw discussion to that thread for a brief window so that the meta can develop. This way, threads would have to avoid the fate of a) being in a subforum and b) having to compete with a boatload of random new OMs.
2) I fully agree with Darklatias92 that the OMotM threads should be stickied. I think this is less of an issue if the main forum is just ladder stuff and the threads get moved there each month, but right now the threads will dip to the bottom of page 1 quite frequently.
3) TBH I'm not sure how much removing inactive metas will help -- most of them are in far-back pages that people never visit anyway. Plus there have been a few high-profile cases of long-dead metas randomly getting support and winning OMotM (see: Ability Unity and 350 Cup). Perhaps you should archive the threads, but still let them be eligible for OMotM nomination. In addition, institute a new system where users can use their once-monthly OM submission power to un-archive a thread if they provide a good enough reason and write up a well-written, informational post to bump the thread and spark some discussion. You can approve or deny based on their own reasoning and the meta itself (for instance if it was approved under laxer requirements and no longer would be approved in the present, keep it archived).
4) This probably won't dissuade you, but just keep in mind you'll be splitting the community by doing this. There are people like me that only want to discuss new and interesting stuff and never touch the ladders. Then there are people that never post in unofficial OM threads but are top of the Anything Goes ladder. If you create the divide, expect to see a lot less of the former group interacting with the latter: similar to how most of the Monotype subforum and to a degree even the Pet Mods suboforum is composed of people I almost never see on this main forum. If that's the direction you want to go, that's fine, jut acknowledge the consequences it'll have.
1) I suppose it doesn't really matter which half of the OM community ends up in the subforum, but if it has to be the non-ladder OMs, I'd like to propose a new system to give much-needed activity to unofficial OM threads without giving them a monthly ladder. Call it something like "(Bi)Weekly/Monthly OM Spotlight" or "Discussion Highlight" or something like that. Each [insert period of time here], the OM leaders or submissions-access-people pick one (or more!) promising unofficial OM thread from the subforum to place in the main forum for [period of time] with a fancy tag in the title. If its playable in some form on another server, then encourage the creator to run a tournament sometime during the [period of time]. It would be ideally be on a different/shorter cooldown the OMotM, and the goal would be to draw discussion to that thread for a brief window so that the meta can develop. This way, threads would have to avoid the fate of a) being in a subforum and b) having to compete with a boatload of random new OMs.
2) I fully agree with Darklatias92 that the OMotM threads should be stickied. I think this is less of an issue if the main forum is just ladder stuff and the threads get moved there each month, but right now the threads will dip to the bottom of page 1 quite frequently.
3) TBH I'm not sure how much removing inactive metas will help -- most of them are in far-back pages that people never visit anyway. Plus there have been a few high-profile cases of long-dead metas randomly getting support and winning OMotM (see: Ability Unity and 350 Cup). Perhaps you should archive the threads, but still let them be eligible for OMotM nomination. In addition, institute a new system where users can use their once-monthly OM submission power to un-archive a thread if they provide a good enough reason and write up a well-written, informational post to bump the thread and spark some discussion. You can approve or deny based on their own reasoning and the meta itself (for instance if it was approved under laxer requirements and no longer would be approved in the present, keep it archived).
4) This probably won't dissuade you, but just keep in mind you'll be splitting the community by doing this. There are people like me that only want to discuss new and interesting stuff and never touch the ladders. Then there are people that never post in unofficial OM threads but are top of the Anything Goes ladder. If you create the divide, expect to see a lot less of the former group interacting with the latter: similar to how most of the Monotype subforum and to a degree even the Pet Mods suboforum is composed of people I almost never see on this main forum. If that's the direction you want to go, that's fine, jut acknowledge the consequences it'll have.
For the record, I don't support a separate subforum. Eevee brought it up in the past and my response is that we have tags such as "Ladder", "Metagame", "Projects" and "Resources" that you can click on and it will only show you those threads. I was just stating that if I were forced to do it then I would want the main OMs in the main forum.
Wait wait, you can search the forum with those tags?
... can that information be put somewhere really highly visible, because I've been here well over a year and had no idea. I'd just thought those tags were to make them a little more visible when manually looking through the thread list.
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I'm personally not a fan of splitting the forums because, yeah, it splits the community, and I don't think it would help people new to OMs find the things they care about. Might even make it harder, if they somehow find the "regular" OMs sub-forum when trying to find the thread for whatever has won OMotM, or something like that. It'd be nice to have ladder threads more readily findable or something, but I'm not sure there's that much payoff to splitting into ladder/non-ladder or whatever.