-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
A View of Sandslash: Is it a superior choice to Donphan?
- Thread starter Yagami Light
- Start date
I'd say Donphan is about the closest thing you're going to get to a comparison to Sandslash. They're much closer than TTar and Chomp are, I'd say.
Oh yea, but what i'm saying is that you can't compare Chomp and T-Tar. Tar gets STAB Crunch off a higher Base attack, and pursuit, AND Stab SE to hit all those motherfuckers that resist EQ for at least Neutral between them, but chomp gets the Haxveil Yache Sub/Sd/Filler/Filler Set.
What i'm trying to say is Both are good, Both work, but it's situational.
What i'm trying to say is Both are good, Both work, but it's situational.
I think rapid spinning will be situational in general till something with some bulkier stats than starmie, no weakness to SR and an instant recovery move come along. With all the ghosts out their it almost needs a pursuiter to be able to clear the field. A solid wish passer like jirachi allows SR weak pokemon to come in without fear of getting clipped for 25%, making rapid spin useless.
Personally I'd be inclined to try Sandslash, mainly because I see Donphan as a big turd, who sacrfices a ton of hitting power just to achieve some semblance of a physical wall. Ice Shard from Donphan does such negligible damage, 25% maybe to Gengar, that it really can't be considered a huge advantage. If Sandslash is able to hit something hard after a SD more power to it! I still feel like it might end up being set up bait like Donphan is.
Btw I'm not inclined to doubt you Light, I am a huge fan of CrushKing, I just finished breeding one!
Personally I'd be inclined to try Sandslash, mainly because I see Donphan as a big turd, who sacrfices a ton of hitting power just to achieve some semblance of a physical wall. Ice Shard from Donphan does such negligible damage, 25% maybe to Gengar, that it really can't be considered a huge advantage. If Sandslash is able to hit something hard after a SD more power to it! I still feel like it might end up being set up bait like Donphan is.
Btw I'm not inclined to doubt you Light, I am a huge fan of CrushKing, I just finished breeding one!
Here's how I see it though-- comparing Sandslash to Donphan really puts it in context. I mean who would have taken this quite as seriously if he just wrote, "Swords Dance Sandslash!" as the header? I think comparing Sandslash to a pokemon who is used (not overly used, but used) puts Sandslash in context when you can demonstrate that their performance in battle is comparable.
And that's not saying which is a a better spinner/utility specifically, but who performs better in battle which is a bit more general.
I think their comparable enough that the comparison helped me understand where you were trying to go with this, and I can see now that Sandslash is at least a semi-viable option.
And that's not saying which is a a better spinner/utility specifically, but who performs better in battle which is a bit more general.
I think their comparable enough that the comparison helped me understand where you were trying to go with this, and I can see now that Sandslash is at least a semi-viable option.
Lets make a 600 bst ground/dark fairy with Spin and STAB Pursuit, backed up with 100 base attack, and we can also chuck recover on there! how fun! [/sarcasm] Point being, this isn't an ideal world, it's not going to happen. Best spinner ATM without a doubt is Fortress.
With regards to your earlier statement about Being inclined to try Sandslash, you stop comparing them the moment you give them either SD or Ice shard. Just thought i'd give you a heads up on that one ;)
My point exactly. HOWEVER, you stop comparing them again when you put a unique move on either set. In general, Donphan does Donphan stuff much better, but Slash can do Half of donphan's stuff without sacrificing Sandslash stuff, but still letting it do Sandslash stuff.
If only there was a "Already tried Sandslash" option...
I don't see how we can agree much when my whole post was basically refuting yours. ?.?
Your logic is just not sound here. If two pokemon are fighting for a spot on a team because there's some overlap between them . . . uh, you are going to compare them.
You're logic is like saying "You can't compare Dragonite and Salamence if you're going to give Dragonite Outrage(/focus punch/thunderbolt/etc.)." which is absurd. Of course I'm going to compare dragonite to salamence when picking one for my team. Are there differences between them? Uh, yeah-- or else I wouldn't be considering between them (it wouldn't matter either way if they were the same). On the same token though, are there lots of similarities? Uh yeah, or else I wouldn't even be thinking between them to fullfil 1 spot on the team. Their niches are "different," but overlap to the point where you got to compare them.
Otherwise you'd get a whole spew of rationals like:
"You can't compare Alakazam and Azelf if you're going to give Alakazam Switcheroo."
"You can't compare between Golem and Rhyperior if you're going to give Golem Explosion."
"You can't compare Sub-seed Shaymin to Sub-seed Celebi if you're going to give Shaymin Seed Flare."
"You can't compare Flygon to Garchomp if you're going to give Flygon U-Turn."
and on and on and on. You get the point. If there is overlap between two pokes such that they're fighting for the same spot on the team, you got to compare them, and in doing so consider the pluses and cons, including access to moves. :/
There are a whole lot more Salamences being used than Dragonites because of the differences of their stats, and you better believe that Dragonite useage would be a lot higher if Salamence (and Garchomp) weren't around. On the same token though, you can bet that the folks who do run Dragonite don't run Salamence at the same time, and that they pick Dragonite for things like Outrage/Focus Punch/Thunderbolt, Dragonite's exlusive moves.
On a last note:
"You can't compare Magikarp to Kabutops if you're going to give Magikarp Splash!"
If you are comparing Salamence and Dragonite for a certain team role, you cannot compare them if you give Draggy Focus punch because that immediatly differentiates the role. Salamence does better at what Mence does, but Dragonite does better at what Dragonite does. If there is an overlap of roles, it's obviously given to the one with higher Base Stats. For example, where do you draw the line between "Utility" and "SD/XScis/Spin/EQ"? I'm too lazy to clarify now, though i might later.
The point is that Focus Punch or not, base stat differences or not, there's too much they have in common.
Fact is that Salamence is bumping down Dragonite useage because he has better stats.
Fact is that Dragonite isn't completely off the map because he has focus punch (and outrage, and thunderbolt, and a whole bunch of other shit).
End of the day, whether Dragonite is running Focus Punch or not, he is competing with Salamence for a spot on the team no matter what he does.
[/rant-derail]
If that doesn't say it, I give up. The point here is that if people take Light seriously (as they should) Donphan use is going to drop, and Sandslash use will rise. Hmmm, I wonder why?
Just slowly working my way through the thread and addressing a few points.
Fine, but let's compare that same Stone Edge on Sandslash after it's got a Swords Dance under its belt. Sure, Donphan can Stone Edge on the switch and then survive a hit to achieve the same result. However, Sandslash boosts its Attack to KO Gengar and pose a threat to other Pokemon too.
While Donphan lays down Stealth Rock, Sandslash uses Swords Dance, boosting all of its attacks as it now has 474 Attack to work with. I'd prefer to be powering up three moves over one, wouldn't you?
Donphan can better Sandslash's stats in every way (marginally) if you give it the right spread. You're absolutely right. However, Sandslash can be much more of a threat in return with Swords Dance. Whereas Donphan, from experience, seems to just slowly die off without Rest, Sandslash has the opportunity to makes its time count by boosting up. In a few situations so far I've found myself with Sandslash up against a foe's final Pokemon that would normally wall Donphan. Just a little while ago, I found myself with Sandslash and a sleeping Pokemon against the opponent's Bronzong. Whereas Donphan would slowly be worn down, hitting for minimal damage, Sandslash was able to Swords Dance up, 3HKOing the opponent's Bronzong and winning me the match. A little situational, maybe, but Sandslash should definitely not be snubbed, as in many last Pokemon situations, it will pull through where Donphan will definitely not.
Except it doesn't have a 4x weakness to Ice moves. On the special side, that doesn't make a difference, but taking Ice Punches when you need to is definitely something that sets Sandslash apart here. It can take physical hits better than your standard Garchomp too, unless you've specifically EV'd your Garchomp to outdo Sandslash, in which case it's losing out on raw attacking power. Garchomp plays a completely different role here. Neither can use Rapid Spin and Swords Dance, Sandslash can. That's the whole point.
Hm, the choice is between supporting the team or attempting a half-assed "sweep" off of very low speed, average attack, and nothing to differentiate yourself from standard sweepers. If I lay down Stealth Rocks, I could actually sweep with my Scizor for the 2HKO on Gyara/OHKO on Infernape/etc., and just generally weaken their team in general, which to me is the preferable option to Swords Dancing on a Pokemon that gets walled by Gliscor/Skarmory either way. "Well other Pokemon can lay out Stealth Rocks"... well other Pokemon can Swords Dance, and more effectively too.
Where is the I already use Sandslash option in the poll hahaha. Your not alone you know.
And does the fact that this thing rocks Swords Dance make it that much better than Donphan? Donphan will always take hits better, and after an SD you know Duskinor or another Ghost with some Ice type move will be coming in to stop a Rapid Spin/sweep.
And does the fact that this thing rocks Swords Dance make it that much better than Donphan? Donphan will always take hits better, and after an SD you know Duskinor or another Ghost with some Ice type move will be coming in to stop a Rapid Spin/sweep.
I'm a big fan of overlooked pokemon serving a purpose on competitive teams, and I have enjoyed a lot of previous threads Light has started on various pokemon. Unfortunately, unless I'm using Donphan, this thread fails to explain to me why I should use Sandslash over the countless other pokemon that could fit in that spot on my team. Even if I am using Donphan, no one has been very persuasive in proving Sandslash is more effective in any way.
This set seems completely situational, honestly. If I need a spinner/ physical sweeper on my team that features 3+ paralysis moves, I might consider Sandslash. Might. But only because I like him.
The only reason Donphan sees such high usage is because in addition to it's spinning duties, it can relatively safely switch into Garchomp and threaten it with a priority Ice move (or Roar out SD chomp). To reverse this, what can Sandslash counter that Donphan cannot? It's really not a high concern for me that Sandslash can beat a few pokemon if it ever came down to 1v1 that Donphan loses to. If your defensive tank that lacks a recovery move is in a last pokemon situation, it generally wasn't helping your team out very much in the first place anyhow.
This set seems completely situational, honestly. If I need a spinner/ physical sweeper on my team that features 3+ paralysis moves, I might consider Sandslash. Might. But only because I like him.
The only reason Donphan sees such high usage is because in addition to it's spinning duties, it can relatively safely switch into Garchomp and threaten it with a priority Ice move (or Roar out SD chomp). To reverse this, what can Sandslash counter that Donphan cannot? It's really not a high concern for me that Sandslash can beat a few pokemon if it ever came down to 1v1 that Donphan loses to. If your defensive tank that lacks a recovery move is in a last pokemon situation, it generally wasn't helping your team out very much in the first place anyhow.
Actually I have a completely different idea in mind with Sandslash.
Let me preface by saying Armadillos are one of my favorite animals.
Anyway...
Safeguard. He learns it, Donphan doesn't. My main beef with Donphan is everytime I put him on a team he comes out to deal with their SR guy, he Rapid Spins, then he can't do much. No one in their right mind will switch a dragon in on him so the whole "well he has Ice Shard so there" thing isn't valid. Usually they then bring in their spinner and Donphan and it stare at each other while being pointless.
Sandslash could Rapid Spin, then instead of Stealth Rocking, Safeguard on his way out after they switch to something that can take him out. Then pull him out and not only have removed the rocks/spikes/etc, but made sure they won't paralyze your sweeper you send into counter their spinner.
Currently the team I'm working on uses both a status eater and a spinner, maybe I'll combine the two and let Slash eat a poison to set up Safeguard.
Let me preface by saying Armadillos are one of my favorite animals.
Anyway...
Safeguard. He learns it, Donphan doesn't. My main beef with Donphan is everytime I put him on a team he comes out to deal with their SR guy, he Rapid Spins, then he can't do much. No one in their right mind will switch a dragon in on him so the whole "well he has Ice Shard so there" thing isn't valid. Usually they then bring in their spinner and Donphan and it stare at each other while being pointless.
Sandslash could Rapid Spin, then instead of Stealth Rocking, Safeguard on his way out after they switch to something that can take him out. Then pull him out and not only have removed the rocks/spikes/etc, but made sure they won't paralyze your sweeper you send into counter their spinner.
Currently the team I'm working on uses both a status eater and a spinner, maybe I'll combine the two and let Slash eat a poison to set up Safeguard.
True, but in that case you could bust out Counter and hit Chomp back.
There's always physical hidden power too: Natural Gift + Ganlon (kind of silly, but you could do something with the defense up) for 80 BP Ice or Yache (take out one of his weaknesses) for 60 BP. Without EVs in the calculation it's a 2HKO on Chomp and could be a 2HKO on Salamence, with Attack EVs or nature I'm sure it would be higher.
That and you wouldn't send in Sandslash as a Chomp counter, he clearly isn't Donphan. I think a better title for this thread would be Sandslash in OU!?
Absolutely. I'd much prefer to have Sandslash as my last Pokemon than Donphan. Once it's walled, that's it. What's the point in taking hits better if you can't actually do anything back? If something like Dusknoir comes in, their best bet is to Will-O-Wisp rather than do hardly any damage while eating a boosted Earthquake.
Eh I personally think both suck, but I will admit this seems like a better alternative to Donphan. I'm not a fan of spinners without recovery, therefore I feel if a spinner lacks recovery it must have a saving grace which I don't feel Donphan has. The ability to catch your opponent off guard by Swords Dancing is pretty neat and is definitely better than anything Donphan can do.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/natural_gift
The power and type are determined by the berry held. The user's berry is used up when it uses Natural Gift.
That makes it a tad harder to 2HKO the various dragons. EQ might finish off Chomp, but won't work on Mence, Dragonite, and Flygon. Stone Edge might finish off Mence and Dragonite, but not Chomp or Flygon. Also I'd assume Mence would be a 3HKO after an intimidate. Being forced to pack a specific item, Natural Gift, EQ, and SE just to take on the dragons is a little much and unrealistic.
Not that I dont think Slash is useful, he just doesn't work nearly as well against the dragons as Donphan does.
Damn, I didn't realize it used up the berry, never used it in game and it didn't have it on Shoddy. What a friggin useless move. Now I'm dissapointed.
I'll try out Slash because I think he has potential, and he's an armadillo, but overall you may be right about Donphan being more use for his niche roles.
Ah, thanks BK for answering all of those issues. Saved me quite some time.
Argh, I tried him last night on a regular team and he really didn't work out, it may have just been a bad fit but it seemed like his speed still wasn't enough to keep him in long, on the bright side he did occasionally take out one poke. It seemed too much like he had serious issues with mixed sweepers and any time I used Swords Dance he would often get 2HKO'd.
He may have a more niche role on Sandstorm teams where his hax can really shine, but it almost seemed like he encouraged most people to bring out their stat-up sweeper.
He may have a more niche role on Sandstorm teams where his hax can really shine, but it almost seemed like he encouraged most people to bring out their stat-up sweeper.