Shadow tag is horribly broken, a defensive core of chansey/jirachi/togekiss can eliminate each others threats with the opponent being powerless to stop them unless the mon has a move which can switch it out or if the mon is a ghost type.
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Ability Shift
- Thread starter Halliday
- Start date
So I learned that Serene Grace Turns into Shadow Tag. FUNBLISS TIME!!
FUNBLISS (Blissey) (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Recycle
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Pulse
Also Snorlax is totally not OP with 160 HP
LOLNOTOP (Snorlax) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
Also No one found Own Tempo Slowking useful?
ZE KING (Slowking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Trick
Lol Dusclops is bulky
Much Fur (Dusclops) @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp
FUNBLISS (Blissey) (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Recycle
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Pulse
Also Snorlax is totally not OP with 160 HP
LOLNOTOP (Snorlax) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
Also No one found Own Tempo Slowking useful?
ZE KING (Slowking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Trick
Lol Dusclops is bulky
Much Fur (Dusclops) @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp
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may i just say that chansey needs a ban like now bc its super duper borked
You're Welcome
recycle leppa is bannedSo I learned that Serene Grace Turns into Shadow Tag. FUNBLISS TIME!!
FUNBLISS (Blissey) (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Recycle
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Pulse
Why has nobody discovered the wrath of Nasty Plot Parental Broken Slowking? Possibly with Trick Room? (OTR Slowking sounds awesome now)
are useless abilities like zen mode/forecast ignored
Already noticed and taken care of. He had mispelled it, lol
I have played some games in the ladder and I can conclude:
-Imposter Snorlax is everywhere
-Slowbro is the main Parental bond user
-Deoxys-S and Entei are the main Proteaners
-You NEED to bring a counter for Greninja, Dusclops or Gourgueist work
-Defensive Yveltal is better than offensive, maybe bulky offensive works too
-Torkoal is usefull
-Starmie counters Hp grass -less Torkoal
-Exploud as a hard time between Surf for Torkoal, Focus blast for steels/rocks, protect/sub for gaining speed and Shadow ball for ghost
-Venomoth may need to carry a psychic move for incoming Muks or Dragalges
-Imposter Snorlax is everywhere
-Slowbro is the main Parental bond user
-Deoxys-S and Entei are the main Proteaners
-You NEED to bring a counter for Greninja, Dusclops or Gourgueist work
-Defensive Yveltal is better than offensive, maybe bulky offensive works too
-Torkoal is usefull
-Starmie counters Hp grass -less Torkoal
-Exploud as a hard time between Surf for Torkoal, Focus blast for steels/rocks, protect/sub for gaining speed and Shadow ball for ghost
-Venomoth may need to carry a psychic move for incoming Muks or Dragalges
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OM of the month!!!
Imposter Snorlax is everywhere! Will it be suspected? This is what happens when an imposter snorlax copies a dusclops... (I changed dusclops' HP to 160 cuz snorlax)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Dusclops: 175-208 (33.3 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Imposter Snorlax is everywhere! Will it be suspected? This is what happens when an imposter snorlax copies a dusclops... (I changed dusclops' HP to 160 cuz snorlax)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Dusclops: 175-208 (33.3 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Exploud gets scrappy so using shadow ball is completely inferior to scrappy burst
Scrappy becomes Serene Grace, but Exploud uses Speed Boost, which soundproof shifts to.
Oh whoops, I completely forgot, sorry!
I've been laddering some with skymin, and I can't say for the other shadow taggers, but it surprisingly doesn't seem very OP. It doesn't learn any decent set up moves to abuse on things that can't touch it, and while it's powerful and fast, it's very frail and extremely prone to being revenge killed.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 780-920 (228.7 - 269.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this can be played around with substitute mindgames, but...):
252+ Atk Pure Power Kecleon Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 95-112 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (...this makes those mindgames difficult)
252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 218-257 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not much prior damage is needed to make sure skymin is toast, and even with LO earth power it has a small chance to fail to OHKO entei after one round of LO)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 344-407 (100.8 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (assuming 4 spd EVs, with def EVs):
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-S: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sr + LO recoil gives you bisharp a high chance to KO without the download boost)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-S: 406-484 (119 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Just a few examples of how Skymin usually fares after killing something.
In addition, three of the things Skymin really wants to trap are gourgeist, dusclops, and chansey. All of which can switch out because of either ghost type or mutual shadow tag.
While this may sound like echoing the mega gengar suspect test where people said it was prone to being revenge killed, mega gengar had destiny bond and perishtrap, and more speed. Skymin is forced to just attack, and will usually take at least one hit before bringing something down, making the aforementioned revenge kills even easier. It also has a very difficult time switching in, being one or two hit KO'd by most offensive mons, a great deal of which carry priority. It's even 2HKO'd by waterfall + water shuriken from LO greninja after sr, assuming only 3 hits. With 4 hits, it will always KO after sr or two rounds of LO recoil, and with 5 hits it KOs if shaymin is so much as scratched beforehand. Even with 2 hits, it's KO'd by sr and one round of LO recoil.
I do, however, think Jirachi might be a different story with better bulk and trickscarf calm mind. I'll ladder with it later and see. I'm convinced that banning shadow tag as a whole is not the solution, and I hope this post convinces some people crying for quickban to look closer before making hasty conclusions.
tl;dr skymin isn't broken because it can't switch in, is almost always forced out after killing something, and can't trap some of the biggest problems for offense.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 780-920 (228.7 - 269.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this can be played around with substitute mindgames, but...):
252+ Atk Pure Power Kecleon Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 95-112 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (...this makes those mindgames difficult)
252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 218-257 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not much prior damage is needed to make sure skymin is toast, and even with LO earth power it has a small chance to fail to OHKO entei after one round of LO)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 344-407 (100.8 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (assuming 4 spd EVs, with def EVs):
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-S: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sr + LO recoil gives you bisharp a high chance to KO without the download boost)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-S: 406-484 (119 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Just a few examples of how Skymin usually fares after killing something.
In addition, three of the things Skymin really wants to trap are gourgeist, dusclops, and chansey. All of which can switch out because of either ghost type or mutual shadow tag.
While this may sound like echoing the mega gengar suspect test where people said it was prone to being revenge killed, mega gengar had destiny bond and perishtrap, and more speed. Skymin is forced to just attack, and will usually take at least one hit before bringing something down, making the aforementioned revenge kills even easier. It also has a very difficult time switching in, being one or two hit KO'd by most offensive mons, a great deal of which carry priority. It's even 2HKO'd by waterfall + water shuriken from LO greninja after sr, assuming only 3 hits. With 4 hits, it will always KO after sr or two rounds of LO recoil, and with 5 hits it KOs if shaymin is so much as scratched beforehand. Even with 2 hits, it's KO'd by sr and one round of LO recoil.
I do, however, think Jirachi might be a different story with better bulk and trickscarf calm mind. I'll ladder with it later and see. I'm convinced that banning shadow tag as a whole is not the solution, and I hope this post convinces some people crying for quickban to look closer before making hasty conclusions.
tl;dr skymin isn't broken because it can't switch in, is almost always forced out after killing something, and can't trap some of the biggest problems for offense.
Starmie gets both Illusion AND No Guard (Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, etc.).
Anything with Serene Grace (Chansey/Blissey, Jirachi, Togekiss, etc.) gets Shadow Tag.
Anything with Anticipation (Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, etc.) gets Arena Trap.
Anything with Pressure (Zapdos, Deoxys, and a bunch more) gets Protean.
Greninja gets Pure Power.
Snorlax gets Imposter AND Tinted Lens. Speaking of Tinted Lens, Mamoswine gets it (100% perfect coverage besides Shedinja).
Venomoth gets Simple for Quiver Dance. Ouch.
Regigigas gets Sniper and Slaking gets Turboblaze. Also, Archeops gets Defiant.
Exploud, Abomasnow, and Bouffalant (and Electrode lol) get Speed Boost.
And just for lulz, Trace users get Truant, Politoed gets Drought, Ninetales and Charizard-Y get Dry Skin, Cloyster and Cincinno get Slow Start, Excadrill and Haxorus get Moody, Breloom gets Fairy Aura, and Darmanitan gets a slightly stronger (240 compared to 234) Flare Blitz.
Anything with Serene Grace (Chansey/Blissey, Jirachi, Togekiss, etc.) gets Shadow Tag.
Anything with Anticipation (Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, etc.) gets Arena Trap.
Anything with Pressure (Zapdos, Deoxys, and a bunch more) gets Protean.
Greninja gets Pure Power.
Snorlax gets Imposter AND Tinted Lens. Speaking of Tinted Lens, Mamoswine gets it (100% perfect coverage besides Shedinja).
Venomoth gets Simple for Quiver Dance. Ouch.
Regigigas gets Sniper and Slaking gets Turboblaze. Also, Archeops gets Defiant.
Exploud, Abomasnow, and Bouffalant (and Electrode lol) get Speed Boost.
And just for lulz, Trace users get Truant, Politoed gets Drought, Ninetales and Charizard-Y get Dry Skin, Cloyster and Cincinno get Slow Start, Excadrill and Haxorus get Moody, Breloom gets Fairy Aura, and Darmanitan gets a slightly stronger (240 compared to 234) Flare Blitz.
Has any one else seen that mega aalakazam has truant and can skill swap
Adaptability Crawdaunt is better since the only coverage move it ever uses (Superpower) doesn't even get boosted by Sheer Force.
tl;dr - Sheer Force is a downgrade
I'm pretty sure that is still outclassed by Greninja as a dark-type and Harvester of souls Conkeldurr as a fighting-type, is main STAB isn't even boosted, only coverage moves and Crunch
Except no Quiver Dance, mixed attacking potential, or any level of bulk. I've been using Starmie a bit and it's kind of disappointing even with all the Torkoals running around. It can't do shit to Dusclops and is easily revenged by Greninja so it kinda sucks. Illusion is kinda fun but not really that good tbh.
Remember there is moody clause so you cant use moody, and gyradosite and ampharosite are banned, so Moody is dead.
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+2 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 156-185 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
still decent. and starmie can kill greninja if it has +2 speed
252+ Atk Pure Power Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 178-210 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
band though...
252+ Atk Choice Band Pure Power Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 266-314 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO