Very interesting, but it seems like our whole system here seems to be booted up a bit. Pretty much everything -2-0 is bottom tier. 1 tier seems to be about the same, but from there 2 and up abilties seem to be blown up to be more useful, such as victory star in B tier compared to 2 for you which you consider barely useful.
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Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)
- Thread starter forestflamerunner
- Start date
Move Harvest to A Tier
Move Compound Eyes to A Tier
Move No Guard to A Tier
Move Multitype (Do not Know Typing) to S Tier
Move Multitype (Know Typing) to A Tier
Multitype without knowing typing would be extremely game changing, pretty much destroying the notions of using super effective moves to counter something. You would never really be sure whether to hit that Scizor with Fire Blast, or use Ice Beam on Dragonite, lest they resist it and KO/set up on you. Volcarona and Yanmega without a 4x SR weakness? 50% more damage on any type with STAB?
Multitype without knowing typing may not help all pokemon, but you could say the same for Huge Power and Pure Power. My point is, it changes the mechanics of pokemon itself to an extreme degree, as well as being versatile and predictable.
That being said, I believe that Nintendo only ever intended Multitype to show the opponent your typing, meaning it should probably be in A Rank.
Move Compound Eyes to A Tier
Move No Guard to A Tier
Move Multitype (Do not Know Typing) to S Tier
Move Multitype (Know Typing) to A Tier
Multitype without knowing typing would be extremely game changing, pretty much destroying the notions of using super effective moves to counter something. You would never really be sure whether to hit that Scizor with Fire Blast, or use Ice Beam on Dragonite, lest they resist it and KO/set up on you. Volcarona and Yanmega without a 4x SR weakness? 50% more damage on any type with STAB?
Multitype without knowing typing may not help all pokemon, but you could say the same for Huge Power and Pure Power. My point is, it changes the mechanics of pokemon itself to an extreme degree, as well as being versatile and predictable.
That being said, I believe that Nintendo only ever intended Multitype to show the opponent your typing, meaning it should probably be in A Rank.
QFT however I feel as though we're missing something about Multitype if we cant see the typing. How much would the metagame change if types were varied with multitype? Can you imagine if Dragonite were to change it's typing. We've always known it to be a bulky Dragon but what if it were changed to a Steel/Flying instead? Not only are all of it's weaknesses shot out the freakin window but it's stealth rock weakness is mitigated due to it's primary Steel typing resisting Rock types. And That's just one example. Also what tank wouldn't absolutely love being a steel type. Chansey/Blissey isn't one of them I can assure you. Or Worse, what if that Chansey/Blissey was a Ghost Type? You don't know it's a Ghost Type but it is so you switch in your fighting type Conkeldurr use your Drain Punch... only to not hit em at all.
What would you do in situations like these? (and dont just say payback because your missing the point of my post) When you dont know your opponent's typing just how much would the metagame and indeed the entire game of pokemon change? That's why having a consistent typing is a good thing and why I believe Multitype is broken period. A change in typing for every pokemon isn't something you can just prepare for. It's gonna flip the entire metagame on it's heels.
Wouldn't Dnite only have a singular typing? The one thing I would say is that if the entire metagame did have the ability to change its typing, the Pokemon that would change would be those with singular typing or those with a SR weakeness. Every user of multitype only gets a singular typing, thus the unique resists that are gained through dual types wouldn't exist which is why I think most Pokes wouldn't run it. Heatran is a great example of this, as is Scizor. You're trading dual STAB and unique resists for surprise factor.
Ok Dnite just setup on you with its Steel-typing/Water-Typing, its a good thing it also lost its best STAB. Same with Scizor with a Water-typing or another type that resists fire.
Harvest, No Guard, Compound Eyes, and Multitype(know Typing) will be moved to A tier While Multitype (Do Not know Typing will be moved to S Tier. The Next Phase is C Tier Nomination and Discussion. This phase will last five days. Bold Your Nominations and have fun!
@ Aesoft
Man I wish I knew about that when I started making this thread. would have saved me a few hours of work. On the whole I like it. obviously there are quite a few differences between ours, but that is probably because of how we defined our tiers. Just out of curiosity, what did you actually make the list to do? have you implemented it in Pokemon Showdown or something? I couldn't tell by the contents of the other thread.
Man I wish I knew about that when I started making this thread. would have saved me a few hours of work. On the whole I like it. obviously there are quite a few differences between ours, but that is probably because of how we defined our tiers. Just out of curiosity, what did you actually make the list to do? have you implemented it in Pokemon Showdown or something? I couldn't tell by the contents of the other thread.
It doesn't matter if Multitype makes things that are already good like Scizor, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Yanmega better. S Tier abilities have to make Pokemon that are not viable viable often. Unless you already have the stats and movepool for OU and are only held back by a bad typing, multitype isn't going to do that for you. Huge and Pure Power give anything with more than base 25 Atk the equivalent of more than base 100, Arena Trap and Shadow Tag make people consider running shit like Dugtrio and Gothitelle, Imposter turns anything into the perfect revenge killer regardless of its stats or movepool, Moody broke Bidoof, Magic Mirror and Prankster made Xatu and Sableye viable, Wonder Guard is the only reason Shedinja isn't complete shit and would break almost anything. There's no way I see Multitype having a similar impact.
I look at Multitype without knowing the typing as somewhat akin to Magic Guard and Speed Boost, really good A Tier abilities that might even break certain things that already had the stats and other characteristics to compete in OU to begin with but not abilities that are going to make things that are shit without god tier abilities like Sableye, Dugtrio, and Politoed good.
Firstoff, like PillsburyDoughBoy said, you're not going to get a Steel/Flying Dragonite, you're going to get a Steel Dragonite that is now week to spikes or a Flying Dragonite that is essentially the same but without its 4x ice weakness in exchange for no Dragon STAB. Second, Dragonite, Chansey, and Blissey are already viable in the OU environment, so the fact that Multitype would make them better, while strengthening the case that it belongs in at least A Tier, does nothing for the case that it belongs in S Tier, since S Tier abilities are for ones that will often make stuff that isn't viable viable. Sure, if you're 4x weak to Stealth Rock like Charizard it might help (actually Dragon Zard would probably be really good since it already gets so many Dragon moves and would get Draco Meteor if holding a dragon plate, but I digress) and if you have a really bad typing it might help as well, but lots of things like their typings already and wouldn't want to lost them. Plus, it's worth noting that in order to use Multitype you essentially trade both your ability and item slot for a different typing. Not much is going to appreciate that very much.
I'd also like to point out that according to usage stats, the most common Arceus (the only thing with the ability that actually exists) is the plateless one making up ~40% of all Arceus used, which stands at 25.8%. Other than Arceus-Ghost at 13.4%, no other form cracks 4%. When you think about it, there just aren't going to be very many viable typings for most things, doubly so if they already have good ones or interesting duel typings.
Edit: Looks like I missed the end of the voting period. I disagree on the decision, but the deadline is passed.
Defiant
As I have already said defiant is clearly better than white smoke and clear body, you get a +1 attack boost from switching into intimidate and a +2 attack boost from random stat lowering hax, sure it's not the best ability, buts its a pretty good one.
Rain Dish
Rain dish is simply an amazing ability with rain support, passive 12.5% healing every turn is nothing to scoff at. This ability alone brought Tentacruel, something barely OU last gen, into the top 20. All in all, its just too good of ability to sit in C tier.
Other abilities I wish to discuss (not noming yet):
-Inner Focus: Honestly flinching is pretty rare, the only candidates are waterfall and fake out. It seems right up the ally of rarely useful hax abilities in D tier if you ask me.
-Unburden: I can easily see this ability being very useful on the right pokemon like a sweeper, especially with all the boosting gems this generation. It just seems to have shitty distribution at the moment.
-Infiltrator: A lot of hyper offensive teams would love to have a sweeper that could literally rip straight though screens.
-Normalize: I don't see this being a good ability at all.
-Hustle: This ability has been shown to be pretty amazing on the right pokemon, this ability is part of the reason Durant was banned from RU people.
-Suction Cups: Not being able to be phased at all is a pretty great thing for any baton pass team.
As I have already said defiant is clearly better than white smoke and clear body, you get a +1 attack boost from switching into intimidate and a +2 attack boost from random stat lowering hax, sure it's not the best ability, buts its a pretty good one.
Rain Dish
Rain dish is simply an amazing ability with rain support, passive 12.5% healing every turn is nothing to scoff at. This ability alone brought Tentacruel, something barely OU last gen, into the top 20. All in all, its just too good of ability to sit in C tier.
Other abilities I wish to discuss (not noming yet):
-Inner Focus: Honestly flinching is pretty rare, the only candidates are waterfall and fake out. It seems right up the ally of rarely useful hax abilities in D tier if you ask me.
-Unburden: I can easily see this ability being very useful on the right pokemon like a sweeper, especially with all the boosting gems this generation. It just seems to have shitty distribution at the moment.
-Infiltrator: A lot of hyper offensive teams would love to have a sweeper that could literally rip straight though screens.
-Normalize: I don't see this being a good ability at all.
-Hustle: This ability has been shown to be pretty amazing on the right pokemon, this ability is part of the reason Durant was banned from RU people.
-Suction Cups: Not being able to be phased at all is a pretty great thing for any baton pass team.
Shield Dust should go up - Shield Dust is a great ability. Crunch and friends will never lower your defense, Dark Pulse and Headbutt will never flinch you, random fire, ice, poison, or electric moves will never burn, freeze, poison, or paralyze you, Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Psychic, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast among others will never lower your special defense, Hurricane will never confuse you, Scald and Lava Plume will never hax you, Signal Beam will never confuse you, etc. Any move with an effect that has a percentage chance (even 100%) of happening will never happen.
Let's look at what I think are the most important uses of the ability: Jirachi has no way to hax you. Machamp (DynamicPunch) and Tornadus (Hurricane) can't either. Volcarona won't get any more powerful no matter how many times it Fiery Dances against you and Magnezone won't be able to boost up if you have it and you're a steel (Ferrothorn would love that, perhaps more than iron barbs). Nothing can flinch you with Fake Out, or boost its speed with Flame Charge, and you are completely immune to sets dependent on burns from Lava Plume or Scald. It's a great ability that happens to just be given to things that are really shitty. Look at the onsite description: "This is actually a really good ability, but you cannot expect to see it very much when the 5 Pokemon that have it are Caterpie, Weedle, Venomoth, Wurmple, and Dustox. Venomoth is somewhat usable nowadays but would always much prefer Tinted Lens to Shield Dust. The other 4 are just awful, and this is a shame, because this ability could be really good on the right Pokemon." Something like that sounds perfect for at least B Tier in my book.
Normalize should go down - I don't really think it takes that much discussion to show Normalize is a really shitty ability with little benefit coupled with a lot of drawbacks. Unless you're normal type, none of your moves have STAB, and, even if you are, you have no coverage and absolutely nothing to hit ghosts with. I can think of two uses for it, namely a ghost skill swapping it onto something else and being immune to their moveset or hitting things with status conditions moves they are immune to like Thunder Waving ground types or Sporing Sap Sippers (though poison still wouldn't work I believe). So we have an ability that is largely bad with a few possible uncommon beneficial uses. D Tier at best in my book.
Snow Cloak should be in B - Sand Veil is and they're the exact same ability just for different weathers. The fact hail is less useful/used than sand didn't keep Snow Warning out of S Tier, and it shouldn't keep Snow Cloak out of B.
Things I don't want to nominate yet but think we should consider:
I was also going to nominate Hustle, but if people think a discussion before doing that would be beneficial, I'll hold back on that. Hustle boosts one of your offensive stats with a draw back that, unlike Solar Power (an ability that consensus decided was B Tier) is able to be worked around (see Hone Claws Durant), and with a power boost that, unlike either Solar Power or Guts (an A Tier ability), doesn't require a set condition to activate. Unlike Solar Power, it also isn't a detriment to Special Attackers or Support mons (who take damage in the sun even if they aren't using special attacks with the former), since there is no accuracy drop for special attacks. The accuracy drop is bad enough to keep it out of A, but C tier abilities are supposed to "oftentimes not even [be] game changing." Whether it helps you with it's power boost or haxes you with the accuracy drop, that's never something that's going to describe Hustle.
I'd also want to consider whether we should nominate Klutz to move down to D as well. Like normalize it's a pretty shitty ability with pretty much two niche uses, namely tricking bad items onto things unexpectedly and being essentially immune to bad item trickers (Fling also used to be a niche, but that doesn't work in Gen V). Otherwise, it's just bad. No lefties, no life orb, no choice, no nothing. That's sounding pretty D in my book.
Also, similarly to my Snow Cloak nom, if we're nomming Rain Dish, I think we should consider nomming Ice Body since it does the same thing in hail and allows for some pretty obnoxious sets like Stallrein (and Regice once it's released).
Effect Spore, Poison Point, and Poison Touch probably deserve at least some discussion as well since we have Flame Body and Static up in B already, the first probably more than the latter two, but I can see a case being made for all of them. Cursed Body has a similar effect, so it might merit discussion as well.
Immunity too, since toxic isn't exactly uncommon, and it's the only way for something grounded that isn't steel or poison typed to avoid Toxic Spikes without an A Tier Ability outside of sunlight. The other status immunity abilities I'd consider for consistency's sake, but I feel less strongly about them.
Also, I'm sorry for being nitpicky and this isn't really a big deal but Iron Fist is spelled Iron Fists and for some reason that's been bugging me.
Let's look at what I think are the most important uses of the ability: Jirachi has no way to hax you. Machamp (DynamicPunch) and Tornadus (Hurricane) can't either. Volcarona won't get any more powerful no matter how many times it Fiery Dances against you and Magnezone won't be able to boost up if you have it and you're a steel (Ferrothorn would love that, perhaps more than iron barbs). Nothing can flinch you with Fake Out, or boost its speed with Flame Charge, and you are completely immune to sets dependent on burns from Lava Plume or Scald. It's a great ability that happens to just be given to things that are really shitty. Look at the onsite description: "This is actually a really good ability, but you cannot expect to see it very much when the 5 Pokemon that have it are Caterpie, Weedle, Venomoth, Wurmple, and Dustox. Venomoth is somewhat usable nowadays but would always much prefer Tinted Lens to Shield Dust. The other 4 are just awful, and this is a shame, because this ability could be really good on the right Pokemon." Something like that sounds perfect for at least B Tier in my book.
Normalize should go down - I don't really think it takes that much discussion to show Normalize is a really shitty ability with little benefit coupled with a lot of drawbacks. Unless you're normal type, none of your moves have STAB, and, even if you are, you have no coverage and absolutely nothing to hit ghosts with. I can think of two uses for it, namely a ghost skill swapping it onto something else and being immune to their moveset or hitting things with status conditions moves they are immune to like Thunder Waving ground types or Sporing Sap Sippers (though poison still wouldn't work I believe). So we have an ability that is largely bad with a few possible uncommon beneficial uses. D Tier at best in my book.
Snow Cloak should be in B - Sand Veil is and they're the exact same ability just for different weathers. The fact hail is less useful/used than sand didn't keep Snow Warning out of S Tier, and it shouldn't keep Snow Cloak out of B.
Things I don't want to nominate yet but think we should consider:
I was also going to nominate Hustle, but if people think a discussion before doing that would be beneficial, I'll hold back on that. Hustle boosts one of your offensive stats with a draw back that, unlike Solar Power (an ability that consensus decided was B Tier) is able to be worked around (see Hone Claws Durant), and with a power boost that, unlike either Solar Power or Guts (an A Tier ability), doesn't require a set condition to activate. Unlike Solar Power, it also isn't a detriment to Special Attackers or Support mons (who take damage in the sun even if they aren't using special attacks with the former), since there is no accuracy drop for special attacks. The accuracy drop is bad enough to keep it out of A, but C tier abilities are supposed to "oftentimes not even [be] game changing." Whether it helps you with it's power boost or haxes you with the accuracy drop, that's never something that's going to describe Hustle.
I'd also want to consider whether we should nominate Klutz to move down to D as well. Like normalize it's a pretty shitty ability with pretty much two niche uses, namely tricking bad items onto things unexpectedly and being essentially immune to bad item trickers (Fling also used to be a niche, but that doesn't work in Gen V). Otherwise, it's just bad. No lefties, no life orb, no choice, no nothing. That's sounding pretty D in my book.
Also, similarly to my Snow Cloak nom, if we're nomming Rain Dish, I think we should consider nomming Ice Body since it does the same thing in hail and allows for some pretty obnoxious sets like Stallrein (and Regice once it's released).
Effect Spore, Poison Point, and Poison Touch probably deserve at least some discussion as well since we have Flame Body and Static up in B already, the first probably more than the latter two, but I can see a case being made for all of them. Cursed Body has a similar effect, so it might merit discussion as well.
Immunity too, since toxic isn't exactly uncommon, and it's the only way for something grounded that isn't steel or poison typed to avoid Toxic Spikes without an A Tier Ability outside of sunlight. The other status immunity abilities I'd consider for consistency's sake, but I feel less strongly about them.
Also, I'm sorry for being nitpicky and this isn't really a big deal but Iron Fist is spelled Iron Fists and for some reason that's been bugging me.
Im kinda iffy on sheild dust, but if clear body and white smoke are up there, I see no reason for this not be. I support snow cloak for consistancy sake. I agree normalize is terrible.
Yeah I want some other support before I nom Hustle.
I think Klutz is a solid C tier ability. Tricksters like Rotom-W might appreciate this ability to cripple things with choice items or just bad items, without crippling themselves (of course Rotom would never give up levitate, but you get the point). I think if you had dedicated trick pokemon, they would surely enjoy this ability, we just aren't use to seeing this used because Lopunny is terrible.
Hail is of course an inferior weather condition, but for the sake of consistency, I'll support ice body to if nominated.
I think poison point and poison touch are a bit to bad for B tier, but Ill support Cursed Body and effect spore. I would just like support on this from some other people so it isn't me and Melvni vs. the world.
I think Immunity should stay as is, its about on par with other status blocking abilities here like limber and insomnia. Yes I know about toxic spikes, but they are rather uncommon, and probably not enough to justify a tier difference.
Yeah I want some other support before I nom Hustle.
I think Klutz is a solid C tier ability. Tricksters like Rotom-W might appreciate this ability to cripple things with choice items or just bad items, without crippling themselves (of course Rotom would never give up levitate, but you get the point). I think if you had dedicated trick pokemon, they would surely enjoy this ability, we just aren't use to seeing this used because Lopunny is terrible.
Hail is of course an inferior weather condition, but for the sake of consistency, I'll support ice body to if nominated.
I think poison point and poison touch are a bit to bad for B tier, but Ill support Cursed Body and effect spore. I would just like support on this from some other people so it isn't me and Melvni vs. the world.
I think Immunity should stay as is, its about on par with other status blocking abilities here like limber and insomnia. Yes I know about toxic spikes, but they are rather uncommon, and probably not enough to justify a tier difference.
Here are my nominations, many of which have already been nominated, but I'm giving my rationales:
Normalize to F tier. Seriously, this is one of the most terrible abilities ever. It takes all sorts of viable Pokemon like Dragonite, Volcarona, and Terrakion and makes them all useless. Oooh boy, you can paralyze Ground-types with Thunder Wave now. Who cares? The Delcatty Normalize Thunder Wave set was developed because they had to write SOMETHING in the Delcatty analysis, and that's the only thing anyone could come up with that's remotely unique. I don't think anyone's ever used that set, and if they have, they probably ended up wishing they'd used Delibird instead.
Rain Dish to B-tier; this makes any wall extra good in rain (except ones that function very poorly in rain already). I would include Ice Body as well if Hail were actually generally useful, but the crippling flaws Hail has makes me think that Ice Body belongs in the C tier. Ice Body is a useful ability, no doubt about it, but it limits your selection of teammates so heavily that you either have to build your team around it (by making an all-out Hail team) or it's useless. Rain Dish is better, because Rain teams are much more diverse, and Rain itself is actually common in the metagame. There's a serious distinction between Snow Warning and Ice Body, and that distinction is that Snow Warning gets rid of your opponent's weather.
Shield Dust to B tier. You block Jirachi's Iron Heal flinches, Scald burns, Ice Beam freezes, and all sorts of annoying hax. It's actually a very good ability; any Pokemon appreciates it, but it's not powerful enough for the A tier. Side note: does it actually prevent secondary effects that don't target the Shield Dust Pokemon? (AncientPower, Fiery Dance, etc.) The Smogon description makes it sound like it does, but something about it makes me feel like it wouldn't.
Klutz to D tier. It's usually harmful, and is only useful with Trick/Switcheroo, which honestly isn't that cool of a trick. This might be an F tier ability, but the one trick it has MIGHT be good enough to keep it out of F. MAYBE.
Effect Spore to B tier. It's pretty analogous to Static and Flame Body; it has a 10% chance of being as good as Static, a 10% chance of being MUCH better (sleep), and a 10% chance of being worse. It's less reliable, but I still think it's good enough to make the B tier.
Poison Point and Poison Touch shouldn't change tiers, because normal Poison generally just isn't that good of a status. Most walls LIKE normal Poison, because it protects them from more debilitating Toxic poison (and paralysis; walls hate paralysis less than sweepers, but the 25% FP chance is still a pain). Physical sweepers like normal Poison too, because it protects them from burns and paralysis.
I think Cursed Body is C tier. It's kind of cool, but the fact that the opponent can just switch out keeps it from being B tier. Static and Flame Body are B tier despite their relatively rare activation because paralysis and burn are game-changing statuses. So while they don't activate all that often, when they do, they make a huge difference. This often isn't true of Cursed Body (though I concede that it sometimes is; the one free turn you get from the opposing Choice-locked Pokemon having to switch out can be huge), and it's almost never true of Poison Point or Poison Touch.
Immunity...that's a tough call for me. On the one hand, it is kind of cool. On the other hand, any player who's really worried about Toxic Spikes can just run a grounded Poison type or a spinner, and without two layers, the only thing you're really worried about is the move Toxic and normal Poison from one layer of Toxic Spikes (which, as I've discussed, isn't particularly threatening). That's rare enough that it seems like it's C tier to me. I can see why it MIGHT be considered B tier, though.
Hustle can indeed be game-changing, but too often it will change the game by making one of your crucial moves miss, letting your opponent KO you or set up for the win. The Hone Claws combo only really works on Durant because it's obscenely fast. I want to call this C tier because, without Hone Claws, you're often putting yourself in a very bad spot, and the Hone Claws combo alone doesn't push it up to B tier in my mind. The C tier description doesn't really fit it, but it's basically an A tier effect (free Choice Band) combined with a F tier effect (you lose 20% accuracy).
Normalize to F tier. Seriously, this is one of the most terrible abilities ever. It takes all sorts of viable Pokemon like Dragonite, Volcarona, and Terrakion and makes them all useless. Oooh boy, you can paralyze Ground-types with Thunder Wave now. Who cares? The Delcatty Normalize Thunder Wave set was developed because they had to write SOMETHING in the Delcatty analysis, and that's the only thing anyone could come up with that's remotely unique. I don't think anyone's ever used that set, and if they have, they probably ended up wishing they'd used Delibird instead.
Rain Dish to B-tier; this makes any wall extra good in rain (except ones that function very poorly in rain already). I would include Ice Body as well if Hail were actually generally useful, but the crippling flaws Hail has makes me think that Ice Body belongs in the C tier. Ice Body is a useful ability, no doubt about it, but it limits your selection of teammates so heavily that you either have to build your team around it (by making an all-out Hail team) or it's useless. Rain Dish is better, because Rain teams are much more diverse, and Rain itself is actually common in the metagame. There's a serious distinction between Snow Warning and Ice Body, and that distinction is that Snow Warning gets rid of your opponent's weather.
Shield Dust to B tier. You block Jirachi's Iron Heal flinches, Scald burns, Ice Beam freezes, and all sorts of annoying hax. It's actually a very good ability; any Pokemon appreciates it, but it's not powerful enough for the A tier. Side note: does it actually prevent secondary effects that don't target the Shield Dust Pokemon? (AncientPower, Fiery Dance, etc.) The Smogon description makes it sound like it does, but something about it makes me feel like it wouldn't.
Klutz to D tier. It's usually harmful, and is only useful with Trick/Switcheroo, which honestly isn't that cool of a trick. This might be an F tier ability, but the one trick it has MIGHT be good enough to keep it out of F. MAYBE.
Effect Spore to B tier. It's pretty analogous to Static and Flame Body; it has a 10% chance of being as good as Static, a 10% chance of being MUCH better (sleep), and a 10% chance of being worse. It's less reliable, but I still think it's good enough to make the B tier.
Poison Point and Poison Touch shouldn't change tiers, because normal Poison generally just isn't that good of a status. Most walls LIKE normal Poison, because it protects them from more debilitating Toxic poison (and paralysis; walls hate paralysis less than sweepers, but the 25% FP chance is still a pain). Physical sweepers like normal Poison too, because it protects them from burns and paralysis.
I think Cursed Body is C tier. It's kind of cool, but the fact that the opponent can just switch out keeps it from being B tier. Static and Flame Body are B tier despite their relatively rare activation because paralysis and burn are game-changing statuses. So while they don't activate all that often, when they do, they make a huge difference. This often isn't true of Cursed Body (though I concede that it sometimes is; the one free turn you get from the opposing Choice-locked Pokemon having to switch out can be huge), and it's almost never true of Poison Point or Poison Touch.
Immunity...that's a tough call for me. On the one hand, it is kind of cool. On the other hand, any player who's really worried about Toxic Spikes can just run a grounded Poison type or a spinner, and without two layers, the only thing you're really worried about is the move Toxic and normal Poison from one layer of Toxic Spikes (which, as I've discussed, isn't particularly threatening). That's rare enough that it seems like it's C tier to me. I can see why it MIGHT be considered B tier, though.
Hustle can indeed be game-changing, but too often it will change the game by making one of your crucial moves miss, letting your opponent KO you or set up for the win. The Hone Claws combo only really works on Durant because it's obscenely fast. I want to call this C tier because, without Hone Claws, you're often putting yourself in a very bad spot, and the Hone Claws combo alone doesn't push it up to B tier in my mind. The C tier description doesn't really fit it, but it's basically an A tier effect (free Choice Band) combined with a F tier effect (you lose 20% accuracy).
Agreeing with Shield Dust, Rain Dish, Defiant, Ice Body, Snow Cloak, Normalize, Klutz and Effect Spore.
The reasoning for all these has already been listed, and seriously, Shield dust should be considered for A tier. All I really need to say people is IMMUNITY TO SCALD BURNS AND JIRACHI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd also like to nominate
Rock Head:
Why? Because a lot of physical attackers would absolutely love to be immune to recoil. Hell, it's this ability that gives Aggron its sole niche remember! Staraptor would adore this ability, and a number of other physical attackers would love to be able to use Double-Edge, Flare-Blitz, Wild-Charge and others without drawback. It's not necessarily enough to bring it to A tier, but certainly the extra power and survivability is enough to change games on a fairly frequent basis. It requires a fairly specific movepool and statspread though, which is why it's B-tier.
Also I'm going to go ahead and nominate...
Hustle: The definition of an ability that vastly improves a Pokemon but requires a specific movepool and stat spread to use. You have to be a physical attacker, preferably one with Hone Claws in order to really take advantage of it, but when you do... FREE CHOICE BAND PEOPLE! That's ridiculously impactful, and while having all your moves hit with the accuracy of stone edge sucks, isn't a massive boost in power (that you can boost further with whatever item you chose!) much better?
Also
Suction Cups: Let me spell this out for you: immunity to phazing moves. Need I say more? Almost any boosting Pokemon would absolutely love this ability, not just baton pass teams. Phazing is the main way most people deal with boosting sweepers, so being immune to it is massively valuable.
The reasoning for all these has already been listed, and seriously, Shield dust should be considered for A tier. All I really need to say people is IMMUNITY TO SCALD BURNS AND JIRACHI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd also like to nominate
Rock Head:
Why? Because a lot of physical attackers would absolutely love to be immune to recoil. Hell, it's this ability that gives Aggron its sole niche remember! Staraptor would adore this ability, and a number of other physical attackers would love to be able to use Double-Edge, Flare-Blitz, Wild-Charge and others without drawback. It's not necessarily enough to bring it to A tier, but certainly the extra power and survivability is enough to change games on a fairly frequent basis. It requires a fairly specific movepool and statspread though, which is why it's B-tier.
Also I'm going to go ahead and nominate...
Hustle: The definition of an ability that vastly improves a Pokemon but requires a specific movepool and stat spread to use. You have to be a physical attacker, preferably one with Hone Claws in order to really take advantage of it, but when you do... FREE CHOICE BAND PEOPLE! That's ridiculously impactful, and while having all your moves hit with the accuracy of stone edge sucks, isn't a massive boost in power (that you can boost further with whatever item you chose!) much better?
Also
Suction Cups: Let me spell this out for you: immunity to phazing moves. Need I say more? Almost any boosting Pokemon would absolutely love this ability, not just baton pass teams. Phazing is the main way most people deal with boosting sweepers, so being immune to it is massively valuable.
Yeah after some thought, Im going to go ahead and nominate Inner Focus, for the reason I already listed. Being immune to flinches of all things isn't that amazing. It might look cool because of all the Jirachi flinch spam that happens in OU, but from the larger perspective, its pretty rare and other pokemon would rather have other abilities even in the C and D tier if given the choice.
I think Shield Dust is very good, but not quite A tier, simply because your opponent has to be running something relatively specific for it to be useful in most cases. It's godly against Jirachi/Togekiss, and immunity to Scald burns is very cool for most physical attackers, but if your opponent isn't using Jirachi/Togekiss or Scald, it really only protects against relatively rare hax. It's way better than its original C tier placement gives it credit for, but I think most Pokemon would prefer another A tier ability.
Inner Focus outclasses pretty much the entire D Tier except maybe Early Bird. Immunity to Fake Out, Iron Head, and Air Slash flinches isn't huge, but it's still kinda cool, and it's way better than stuff like Big Pecks. It's not a good C Tier ability, but it's better than B tier, in my mind.
I'll agree with Rock Head for B Tier; it's amazing for anything with Head Smash, and still fairly cool for Flare Blitz users. It's better than Bad Dreams, at least.
I've changed my mind about Hustle, and think it belongs in the B tier. I think it requires Hone Claws for anything to actually want to use it; missing 20% of the time with 100% accuracy moves is truly atrocious. But Hone Claws has pretty wide distribution, and as Durant showed, Hustle can make you a dual threat; you'll either boost up with Hone Claws (which requires one type of switch-in) or you'll slap a Choice Band on for insane power (which requires a different type of switch-in). That's clearly B tier. If Hone Claws were more rare, I'd see it as C tier.
Inner Focus outclasses pretty much the entire D Tier except maybe Early Bird. Immunity to Fake Out, Iron Head, and Air Slash flinches isn't huge, but it's still kinda cool, and it's way better than stuff like Big Pecks. It's not a good C Tier ability, but it's better than B tier, in my mind.
I'll agree with Rock Head for B Tier; it's amazing for anything with Head Smash, and still fairly cool for Flare Blitz users. It's better than Bad Dreams, at least.
I've changed my mind about Hustle, and think it belongs in the B tier. I think it requires Hone Claws for anything to actually want to use it; missing 20% of the time with 100% accuracy moves is truly atrocious. But Hone Claws has pretty wide distribution, and as Durant showed, Hustle can make you a dual threat; you'll either boost up with Hone Claws (which requires one type of switch-in) or you'll slap a Choice Band on for insane power (which requires a different type of switch-in). That's clearly B tier. If Hone Claws were more rare, I'd see it as C tier.
Some people have mistakenly stated that rain dish/ ice body restore 1/8 of users health when in fact it restores 1/16 which is still good but substantially worse. Just something to consider. Also i was wondering if anyone has any opinions on wonder skin. I feel like it could be B tier worthy because reducing WoW, toxic and thunder wave accuracy is pretty sweet
I think they meant that they restore 1/8 of your HP when coupled with leftovers, which is generally the item of choice on Rain Dish or Ice Body sets.
On the one hand, I actually think Wonder Skin is fine in C Tier. C Tier abilities are ones that "have uses, but the effects aren’t gamebreaking and oftentimes not even game changing. These abilities may have some niche uses but there are superior options available." In competitive battling the only common moves Wonder Skin is going to affect are Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Spore, Roar, Whirlwind, Toxic, Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, Thunder Wave, Confuse Ray, and maybe Encore and Yawn, and it's only going to do that half the time anyway. An ability that is only going to do anything half the time against pretty much 13 moves isn't going to be gamebreaking and a lot of the time isn't going to do anything (oftentimes it isn't even game changing).
On the other hand, I can also see the argument the other way. Those are some pretty common moves (assuming it works against all the ones I think it does), so resisting them could be pretty useful. Moreover, while it's possible they succeed, Pokemon with the ability would discourage Pokemon using those moves against them, so it could be almost as good as being immune to them (though not quite). I've seen it described as a lum berry that works half the time combined with a mental herb that works half the time, and I can certainly see the merit behind that.
melvni, the Smogon page for Wonder Skin only describes it as working on status moves; does it actually work on stuff like Taunt and phazing moves? If it did, I think it would definitely be B tier, possibly high B tier; for walls, you block your opponent's ability to Taunt you and prevent you from hitting them with a status move, and for set-up sweepers, you'd prevent them from phazing you for a turn, which can probably result in a KO. But from everything I've heard, it only works on status moves, which would limit it to Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Spore (plus the more rare Sleep Powder, Hypnosis, and Stun Spore, and the almost-never-seen Confuse Ray). If that's true, I'd think it would definitely be C tier; it's cool, but not quite B tier, since one-and-done status moves aren't super common with alternatives like Scald and Toxic Spikes running around. That said, Will-O-Wisp is an awesome and common move, and very few people in their right mind would consider using it on a Pokemon that it only has 37.5% accuracy on, so I could potentially see Wonder Skin as B tier.
I was basing my post off posts in the research thread, one of which described it as essentially a half lum berry combined with a half mental herb. However, I think I was mistaken in thinking mental herb blocked Roar, Whirlwind, and Leech Seed so I'm not sure that it works against those (the first two I'm pretty much positive it doesn't, the last one I'm not entirely sure since that description of the ability might be slightly oversimplified). That being said, it definitely works against Taunt (and things like Encore and Torment I suppose), so that should definitely be considered in out tiering discussion.
Wonder skin makes all non damaging moves half as accurate according to bulbapedia. This seems to imply that moves such as leach seed encore and taunt would all have 50% accuracy, which is quite a bit better than messing up will o wisp or thunderwave once in a while.
I believe I found the relevant post from the reasearch thread on what the ability does. Basically it gives every status move 50% accuracy, then takes into account other accuracy modifiers. With that in mind it not only reduces things like Taunt and Spore to 50% accuracy, but also reduces things like Will-O-Wisp and Sleep Powder to 50% (not 37.5% like we previously thought). Someone should test whether it works on the phazing moves though, since those are kinda different from other moves like that in what they do and I'm not entirely positive whether it would affect them.
Edit: I asked the SQSA thread, apparently it does affect Whirlwind and Roar. So basically at this point it looks like it's essentially half a lum berry and half a mental herb combined with a suction cups that works half the time (except on dragon tail) with a few other things thrown in. That actually sounds pretty good. It's a pity the only things with it either have better abilities (Sigilyph, Venomoth) or are Delcatty (though, on a completely unrelated side note, looking up what has this ability caused me to notice the Japanese names for Normalize and Wonder Skin are Normal Skin and Miracle Skin, which I guess explains why the latter makes sense as Delcatty's dreamworld ability at least).
Now that we have a better understanding of the ability (and I've thought about it a bit more), it's sounding like it's definitely B Tier material, since status type moves aren't exactly uncommon and being able to avoid any of them aimed at you 50% of the time is pretty sweet (especially since it discourages using them against you in the first place unless there's no other option). I'd even say there's an argument that could be made it belongs as high as A potentially, though I'd say it would be low A if it was placed that high. After all, the things with it already either have high A abilities or are absolutely terrible, so there's certainly an argument there.
Abilities that are strictly related to a single pokemon specied such as Multitype and Color Change should not be tiered.
Why not? Except for Zen Mode, they could easily be extended to other Pokémon.