Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)

[Princess Bubblegum]

Oh I was just pointing something out about burn vs poison, I understand that voting is over. :)

Ok I see where your coming from with stall, overall it negatively effects to many pokemon. However if stall is bad on a pokemon... you just don't use that ability, similar to how Hustle would bad on something like Blissey or Tentacruel. I would like to retierate my view that D tier is "a ability that's better than nothing" which it is on some pokemon. Clearly though our views on the separation between of D and F tier differ greatly though, and I am not sure now much discussion we are going to get outside of saying "I disagree with you."

I would like to note though if stall isn't brought up, that probably means normalize needs to be brought down later to as its even more situational than stall.

 

[NoUserName]

I think Zen Mode should only be tiered thinking on Darmanitan. I don't think that Zen Mode is going to work in another mon, in other words, does nothing in another mon.
I don't think Nintendo will give Zen Mode to another mon and it is going to transform into Darmanitan-Z

Since we are talking about only single battles, Minus and Plus do nothing, it's like playing with "No Ability", worse than Keen Eye(Keen Eye can work in a blue moon still) So, F Tier(if F Tier got splitted, in the tier above, below things like Truant)

 

[forestflamerunner]

I have half a mind to put Zen Mode in a "Z- Tier" for the lolz and because it is almost impossible to know how the damn thing would work on anything but Darmanitan. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this idea?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Yeah Z-tier or limbo, either is fine with me.

Huh I thought Plus and Minus activated if your opponent also has minus or plus, apparently this is not true...

Good thing I didn't nominate them ;).

 

[Marzbar]

Speed Boost and Magic Guard could be considered Tier S. The Pokemon that have them are only really usable because of those abilities. Sharpedo, Clefable, Yanmega etc.

 

[G-Von]

Speed Boost and Magic Guard could be considered Tier S. The Pokemon that have them are only really usable because of those abilities. Sharpedo, Clefable, Yanmega etc.

That isn't necessarily true. Yanmega can run a Choice Specs Tinted Lens set and rip wholes into anything that doesnt quad-resist it. The same exact thing goes for Sigilyph, too.

 

[forestflamerunner]

there was some serious debate on Magic Guard's and Speed Boost's A Tier status on Page 7 of this thread. Both were deemed A Tier because a Pokemon needs to have decent stats all around for this ability to break the pokemon. I've quoted a couple of the arguments to keep the abilities in A Tier for reference

Rediamond, Magic Guard is amazing, and it's one of the best, if not the best, A tier ability. But the description of the S tier says that it often makes unusable Pokemon usable. I don't think Magic Guard does that. You're absolutely right that every Pokemon in the game would appreciate Magic Guard, but after that, the Pokemon still needs to stand on its own merits. It will consistently move most Pokemon up about a tier, and will turn "good Pokemon" into "better Pokemon", but it doesn't give anything the Politoed/Ninetales/Sableye treatment, where it goes from "laughably bad" to "OU worthy". Clefable isn't particularly good even with Magic Guard, because it just had crappy stats. Alakazam is great with Magic Guard, but that's because it's fast and strong without it. Reuniclus is also great with Magic Guard, but it has great bulk and pretty solid power without it. Like I said, it takes pretty good Pokemon and makes them very good. It also takes pretty bad Pokemon and makes them less bad. But it never really "transforms" something from nearly useless to very useful; it just allows most Pokemon to make the best out of what they've already got (in terms of stats/typing/movepool). So in my mind, it's not quite S tier, but it's a cut above most of the other A tier abilities.

Speed Boost

Speed Boost is A tier because it does not make Pokémon in the way that drought and prankster do. A Pokémon needs to already have great attack or special attack to make use of speed boost and the ability often raises the Pokémon a tier in usage, not two or three. Sharpedo already had great attack special attack and speed, but suffered from fraility. If DPP had a RU tier, it would probably see decent usage in that tier, as it does now in UU. If yanmega lost speed boost, it still would be around the same usage thanks to tinted lens, and even if it lost that it wouldn’t drop too much; it has a monster special attack and decent speed. Ninjask is all around shit, so we’ll move on to blaziken. A lot of people say that Blaziken jumped from UU to Uber, which while technically true, misses the fact that blaziken already had OU stats but its niche was already occupied by infernape. With speed boost, it managed to beat out infernape for the spot in OU. The reason Blaziken was sent to Ubers also had a lot to do with its access to baton pass, which in conjunction with speed boost just raped shit. Blaziken was like a perfect storm. Speed boost didn’t break blaziken because the ability itself was broken, it was because blaziken had all the tools to be broken with speed boost, if that makes sense. Speed Boost will make a good Pokémon better. A lot better. But if you slap it on a shitty mon like Linoone, the Pokémon will still be utter shit.

P/S.- Welcome to the discussion

 

[Marzbar]

I do understand those arguments, and mostly agree with them.

I think the same could be said about Prankster though. You do need decent stats and a decent movepool to be able to abuse it. If Sableye had different typing and some actual weaknesses, it would be a lot less usable. Liepard has Prankster and I don't see it running rampart in OU... as sexy as it is though.

 

[Diatom]

Honestly, I can't find anything out of place in the F-tier. Can anyone else find stuff?

 

[Jimera0]

All I think that needs doing is moving Zen Mode to it's own tier (Z-tier because that sounds awesome) since there's really no way to judge how it'd work on other Pokemon, making it kind of unfair to rank it anywhere. Other than that I think it's all good where it is.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I know we aren't in the tier anymore, but since we are talking about the creation of new tiers I think this deserves discussion.

Moody is currently banned guys, it makes sometimes like bidoof a monster that can stall out uber teams for christ's sake. One can say it makes almost every pokemon better, something like huge power can't say. I honestly think that moody should be a tier ahead of everything considering how crazy it is.

The only problem I can for see is naming any tier because S-tier is already the standard "banned" tier in other tier systems and there usually is nothing above it.

 

[XienZo]

I know we aren't in the tier anymore, but since we are talking about the creation of new tiers I think this deserves discussion.

Moody is currently banned guys, it makes sometimes like bidoof a monster that can stall out uber teams for christ's sake. One can say it makes almost every pokemon better, something like huge power can't say. I honestly think that moody should be a tier ahead of everything considering how crazy it is.

The only problem I can for see is naming any tier because S-tier is already the standard "banned" tier in other tier systems and there usually is nothing above it.

Moody's banned because it turns the game into a crapshoot, not because it's particularly that good; it's never used in Hackmons for a reason.

 

[forestflamerunner]

Well, that is the end of the F Tier discussion. The two abilities we will be voting on are Stall and Zen Mode. You may vote Change Tier, Do Not Change Tier, or Abstain. Please put your votes in bold. This voting period will last 2 Days. Have fun.

Stall- Do Not Change Tier
Zen Mode- Change Tier

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Stall- Change Tier
Zen Mode- Change Tier

I presume the propose tier change is to Z tier for zen mode.

 

[Jimera0]

Stall- Do Not Change Tier
Zen Mode- Change Tier

I don't care if stall could be useful on one or two specific sets, it ruins almost EVERY OTHER POKEMON. There's a difference between abilities that are more or less 50/50 like Rivalry and shit like stall that ruins 99% of Pokemon. That 1% isn't enough to bring it out of F-tier.

 

[Twins]

Stall- Do Not Change Tier
Zen Mode- Change Tier
Stall is absolutely horrible, and has no viable use whatsoever.

Zen Mode, on the other hand, should get its own tier, because it's just that awesome.

 

[Diatom]

Stall: Do Not Change Tier
Zen Mode: Change Tier

 

[Poke Trainer]

Simple makes Swoobat into a very potent sweeper if allowed to set up which can exile be remedied behind dual screens. I have had 6-0 sweeps with Swoobat before.

 

[Kiyo]

Stall: Do Not Change Tier
Zen Mode: Change Tier

 

[forestflamerunner]

Hey if there is anyone who wants to move Zen Mode into any tier but Z Tier, let me know. Otherwise, assuming Stall loses, I'm gonna move Zen Mode into Z tier without wasting a day on the retiering vote.

 

[forestflamerunner]

Stall stays where it is and Zen Mode gets its own very special Z Tier!!!. On that note, we are nearing the end of this process. We are now moving onto our very last phase, The Final Check. This is where we through all of the tiers and see if there are any abilities that we need to discuss or nominate for a tier change. You can nominate any ability in any Tier so long as we haven't already voted on that ability. This period will last Fifteen days, so as to give us ample time to discuss all of these abilities and to give newcomers to this thread a healthy opportunity to comment on abilities in the higher tiers. For reference, i have listed all of the abilities we have already voted on below.

ABILITIES YOU MAY NOT NOMINATE

Prankster, Contrary, Sand Force, Mold Breaker, Turboblaze, Teravolt, Moxie, Magnet Pull, Quick Feet, Sturdy, Magic Guard, Speed Boost, Harvest, Compound Eyes, No Guard, Marvel Scale, Multitype, Static, Flame Body, Leaf Guard, Bad Dreams, Shield Dust, Insomnia, Vital Spirit, Rain Dish, Ice Body, Defiant, Effect Spore, Rock Head, Hustle, Snow Cloak, Suction Cups, Unburden, Wonderskin, Anticipation, Overgrow, Gluttony, Overcoat, Stall, and Zen Mode.

Also, there were four abilities that received a tied vote during the voting stages: Toxic Boost, Soundproof, Klutz, and Normalize. These abilities are autonominated and will be voted on at the appropriate time. So yeah, that's that. Have fun!

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Yeah Im not nominating any of these just yet, but I think they should have discussion:

Imposter: I don't think this is that great, infact for some actually good pokemon, its a detriment.
Moody: As I discussed earlier on this very page, moody is banned, it should get its own tier.
Flower Gift: Since we are not including the effect in doubles... this should be F tier.
Analytic: Currently nothing good gets low speed and high special attack with this ability, but if something did, I could easily see how this ability could be put to full use.
Shed Skin: Sure its luck based, but the ability to passively heal from status is pretty great, in some situations its better than natural cure
Infiltrator: Again I could see quite a few offensive pokemon loving this ability to slice through screens.
Inner Focus and Steadfast: Immunity to / speed boost after a flinch ain't that great.
Pressure: I think that this has more use there we are giving it credit for, Kyurem this gen and Zapdos last gen are able to use PP stall sets thanks to this.
Iron Fist: Pokemon with punches love this
Pickpocket: Seems rather situtional or gimicky to be used, a few customized sets do like this, but outside that meh.
Vital Spirit / Insomnia: Immunity to sleep is pretty big
Anger Point: again +6 from a crit is nuts
Own Tempo: Immunity to confusing ain't bad, with hurricane everywhere and Machamp in UU, I could see it's use
Color Change: I think this needs more discussion

 

[Deaga]

Analytic: Currently nothing good gets low speed and high special attack with this ability, but if something did, I could easily see how this ability could be put to full use.

Magnezone. ;) Although it certainly has better things to do (Magnet Pull), it fits the description of the "perfect" Analytic user. I remember one on the ladder OHKOing my full HP Dragonite with Thunder. That thing is nuts.

 

[Jamiroquai]

I completely agree with the points put for Speed Boost. Politoed would see virtually no usage (OU) if it wasn't for Drizzle, as it's a medicore poke, there's plenty others that can do anything it can better. Yet, simply due to Drizzle, it's in the top 10 usage. If the ability only gave +50% to water attacks from Poli, it wouldn't be as awesome.

The difference is, Speed Boost, while granting an amazing +1 speed each turn, doesn't turn Magikarp into an OU monster. Magikarp with drizzle however (a world without Drizz Poli), still has a use. It turns something pointless & terrible into something useful, while it can't actually do anything outside of it's ability, Drizzle alone gives it purpose and, at a sacrifice just for rain, actually turns it into something useful. In comparison, Speed boost won't turn something useless into gold, it needs something to work with. Turning Magikarp into a speeding demon on the sea's no use.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I completely agree with the points put for Speed Boost. Politoed would see virtually no usage (OU) if it wasn't for Drizzle, as it's a medicore poke, there's plenty others that can do anything it can better. Yet, simply due to Drizzle, it's in the top 10 usage. If the ability only gave +50% to water attacks from Poli, it wouldn't be as awesome.

The difference is, Speed Boost, while granting an amazing +1 speed each turn, doesn't turn Magikarp into an OU monster. Magikarp with drizzle however (a world without Drizz Poli), still has a use. It turns something pointless & terrible into something useful, while it can't actually do anything outside of it's ability, Drizzle alone gives it purpose and, at a sacrifice just for rain, actually turns it into something useful. In comparison, Speed boost won't turn something useless into gold, it needs something to work with. Turning Magikarp into a speeding demon on the sea's no use.

Speed boost was already brought down from S tier because its not amazing on everything everything. I don't think its B tier either because on a pokemon that actually is good, its amazing, as seen with Blaziken's banning. Note most of the pokemon with speed boost suck, but on the good pokemon, Sharpedo and Blaziken, it made them even better. Not the best ability, but still a dam good one. Think of this in actually a real world situation, give speed boost to Terrakion or Lucario and now you have a monster, which is what Blaziken was.