Abortion

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Just because cancer came and gave the woman a tumor doesn't mean it's my fault she has a tumor it's the cancer's fault! The woman just has to live with the tumor now why should my tax dollars go to removing it ?_?_? I mean I'm not inflicting anything on the woman right!

SUCK IT UP CANCER PATIENTS
 

Nastyjungle

JACKED and sassy
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
@everyone else: Falling on the good ol', "This is too stupid for me to argue." That's fine.

i will just say that there is a difference between an egg and a chick and it is hard to argue with somebody that doesnt even understand that simple logic


oh and you do inflict penalty on a woman who is raped by denying her an abortion, just the same as you would inflict penalty on a guy who gets stabbed by not letting him get to a hospital
 

Molk

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Im just posting to say that i am extremely Pro-life, Fetus's have a heartbeat at least at a certain point. So you ARE KILLING A LIVING THING, i dont care what your circumstances are. you can have a chance of dying if you have the child, but it was YOUR choice to produce the chance for that to happen, in fact, because of abortion, some groups are dying faster then they are being born. especially in asian countries where there is a 5:1 gender ratio male to female in some cases, this is terrible and could destroy our culture as it is. cause its starting in america/europe too not the gender thing but we are now reproducing slower than we are dying, please stop the abortion.
 

Nastyjungle

JACKED and sassy
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Im just posting to say that i am extremely Pro-life, Fetus's have a heartbeat at least at a certain point. So you ARE KILLING A LIVING THING, i dont care what your circumstances are. I dont care if you will die if you have the child, it was YOUR Choice to produce the chance for that to happen, because of abortion, some groups are dying faster then they are being born. especially in asian countries where there is a 5:1 gender ratio male to female in some cases, this is terrible this could destroy our culture as it is. cause its starting in america/europe too not the gender thing but we are now reproducing slower than we are dying, please stop the abortion.
asian countries kill female babies after they are born not by aborting them jesus christ read a fucking book

7 billion people inhabit this earth and you think more people dying that being born is bad?
 

Molk

Godlike Usmash
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There seems to be a pattern with these people here who are pro life...

So I assume you are vegan kyurem?
lol no im not a vegan,

@nastyjungle yes it is a bad thing, it means certain groups of people could die out,(indians/europeans are in danger) and that was an error on my part, there is selective abortion though. But letting that happen is still a bad thing, think about it gendercide and trafficing are still major issues that are related to abortion and the downing of the female, dont you get it females are needed for us to go on literally, why kill them?
 
Banedon i have a question. Are you capable of rational thought?

I don't mean to be insulting, but the evidence adds up. First you post a thread in which you not only endorse nihilism but also misunderstand it.

Then you say that the killing of a bacteria is the equivalent of killing a human.

You also equated the goal of propogation (very true, btw) with Anthem-style breeding houses in which we impregnate every woman to get more pplz.

But the real kicker was when you equated the abortion of a fetus to voting reqs. I mean, that's just sick. Not only is abortion a moral issue whereas battling skill is a much less subjective one, but it's a drastic oversimplification. When Excadrill got banned, nobody DIED. Aldaron's Proposal had major effects on the meta, yes, but last time I checked the meta in general has no major effects on real life. The fact that you can even see the two on the same level makes me question if you should be institutionalized.

I apologize for the harshness in above post, but I'm this close to going NWO on you.
You're not the first to think so; my way of thinking is rather unique. But I'll say you misunderstand everything I posted.

I didn't say anything about nihilism in the other thread and in fact did not draw any parallels between what I was thinking and nihilism. I'm not even sure what nihilism is. You drew that conclusion, not me.

I didn't say killing bacteria is equivalent to killing humans. They certainly aren't. We kill billions of bacteria everyday and orders of magnitude lower humans. The point I was making is that bacteria are living things too, and that we already kill them, so the idea that we should not kill foetuses because we should not kill at all is wrong. Yes, I recognize that every living being (the macroscopic ones, anyway) must kill in order to survive. That's just how nature works.

I didn't equate propagation of the species with breeding houses. That was reductio ad absurdum.

The point about voting reqs is that they provide a clear, unambiguous line between what is allowed and what isn't. THAT is the quality to look at. You'll remember this point arose because mattj asked where to draw the line between "allowed to abort" and "not allowed to abort". Stating this line as "the moment of birth" or "exactly 150 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes and 0 seconds" both draw this line in an unambiguous manner.

Wikey said:
@Banedon: Did you comprehend anything I posted? Of course I agree with animal cruelty laws even though I value an animal's life less than a person's. And of course I don't think women should be pregnant all the time and/or raped to make this so. We evolved civilisation and culture and laws and such because they propogate our species. I'm not advocating a dystopia because it would be less successful than what we have now because freedom and happiness and all that are important to us.
Well then what is your point? Let's agree we should propagate our species. Then we should not abort any foetuses. If that makes sense, then why should we not have as many children as possible? It's well known that as a woman gets more educated, the less children they are likely to have. Why do we have laws for equal opportunity between the genders then? Why not restrict women from studying, so they have more children and propagate our species? What is your point? If you're saying something that isn't contradictory, I'm not getting it.

Wikey said:
@Everyone: What is this magical thing about coming out of the womb that makes a fetus into a baby?
Nothing. But coming out of the womb is an unambiguously clear line that distinguishes between "allowed to abort" and "not allowed to abort". Any other unambiguously clear line, giving enough time for the woman to realize she is pregnant and then decide she doesn't want a baby, would be just as good.
 
There is literally no difference. Abortion is just a word used to remove the stigma of the word murder.

Just because cancer came and gave the woman a tumor doesn't mean it's my fault she has a tumor it's the cancer's fault! The woman just has to live with the tumor now why should my tax dollars go to removing it ?_?_? I mean I'm not inflicting anything on the woman right!

SUCK IT UP CANCER PATIENTS
I shouldn't dignify this with a response but I explained this already. Everyone is yelling at me for not being able to tell the difference between a fetus and a baby (when there isn't one) and yet you are failing to see the difference between a fetus and cancer.

i will just say that there is a difference between an egg and a chick and it is hard to argue with somebody that doesnt even understand that simple logic


oh and you do inflict penalty on a woman who is raped by denying her an abortion, just the same as you would inflict penalty on a guy who gets stabbed by not letting him get to a hospital
Yes, there is a difference between an unfertilized egg and a chick. Once fertilization takes place a series of events are in place that lead to the creation of a chick though.

You're calling me thick and you can't see the difference between having an abortion because of emotional distress and giving someone treatment for a wound?

@Spork: I am not ignoring you. You just aren't arguing anything other than that my definition of abortion and fetus are wrong. Give me evidence as to how aborting a fetus isn't killing a baby. There is literally no difference.

@Banedon: The point where a woman/man can decide they don't want a baby is BEFORE they have sex. I shouldn't respond to you because you're a troll, but whatever.

@Everyone: Arguing with you idiots is turning me into Deck Knight. I am seriously starting to think that the only reason you are Pro-Choice is because being Pro-Life is for backwards hillbilly Christians.
 
Fetus -> horrible little ball of cells that could ruin your life
Tumor -> horrible little ball of cells that could ruin your life

nah man I'm good
 

Molk

Godlike Usmash
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attention europeans: propagate now you are in danger of going extinct

exactly, europeans, please replace yourselves if you dont want to go extinct, stop with this abortion/murder bullshit, no one needs gendercide either asia.
 
^That doesn't work. A tumour shares the same DNA as the rest of your body while a foetus does not.

I'd like to see what you think about this though Wikey:

Nothing. But coming out of the womb is an unambiguously clear line that distinguishes between "allowed to abort" and "not allowed to abort". Any other unambiguously clear line, giving enough time for the woman to realize she is pregnant and then decide she doesn't want a baby, would be just as good.
 
Long story short the place is extremely messed up, like fifty people are dead because he wasn't around to save his brother's life when he was twelve so his brother died and couldn't stop a runaway train or something. All this other stuff is way worse than when George was born and in the end happy ending he re-wishes he was born and things are normal.
That is very cute, but that is not how the real world works at all.

Every action we make depends on our current knowledge, leading to a chaotic effect that snowballs very rapidly. Had George not existed, there is no evidence his brother would ever have been in a life threatening situation. Without him, he would have been completely different and would have been to different places at different times with different people. Furthermore, small errors accumulating, it's very possible that there would not even have been a runaway train in that situation, but maybe some other runaway train a hundred miles from there.

Furthermore, one of the decisions people base on their knowledge is the decision to have a child or not. If a couple wants one child but the time isn't right, they can either keep them and have some difficulties, or abort, wait a few years, and then have a child in better conditions. In the end, they will have had one child. In your example, it is actually a very real possibility that had George not existed, his parents would have had another child later instead. He would merely be replaced.

Basically, you are oversimplifying a very complex system. You could think of it this way: humans naturally seek to fill voids that they see in their lives and surroundings. When a human is born, they fill some void. But if they are not, the void remains, and so does the incentive to fill it. If you want to have exactly two children and get an abortion, that doesn't mean you will only get one kid after all. You will either get two kids and an abortion, or two kids and no abortion. That might not always be the case, but it is clear that the long term impact of an abortion isn't necessarily less life. It is like a janitor pointing out that if they didn't exist, the building that they clean would be dirty as hell, without realizing that if they didn't exist, well, they would just have hired somebody else.

Your point that we have to decide when a fetus becomes a human is a good one. I believe that the line should be drawn at fertilization. When left to run their natural course sperm will stay sperm, ovum will stay ovum, but a zygote will develop into a baby.
Your argument is poorly thought out. When left to run their natural course sperm will stay sperm, ovum will stay ovum, but a frozen ovum and a frozen sperm under a heating lamp will develop into a baby. Or you could put sperm in a chamber, an ovum in another chamber, both chambers separated by a gate, and connect the gate to a clock. After exactly thirty seconds, the gate is opened and fertilization occurs. When left to run its natural course, without any interference, the system of the two chambers, sperm, ovum and clock will develop into a baby (might need an incubator too). Does that mean it's murder to take out the ovum and smash it under a rock?

I know it sounds like a ridiculous example, but it is not. The "natural course" of the apparatus I just described will produce a baby. It's not because a zygote is interleaved and seems like a single thing that it is a fundamentally different situation. The truth is that whatever potential a fertilized zygote may have, an apparatus that contains sperm, ovum and is programmed to cause fertilization must have the exact same potential. That's why potential is a very poor argument against abortion.

The right way to proceed is as follows: first, you need to determine what it is, exactly, that makes murder unacceptable. Second, you need to determine whether these properties apply to fetuses or not. But for now let's proceed the other way around: what properties does a thirty second old embryo have that are possibly of any value? Sentience? No. Intelligence? No. Human appearance? Certainly not. Do other human beings have an emotional attachment to it? No. Can it do anything for us? Nope. It can become human, but clearly after thirty seconds it's not quite there yet. A thirty second old embryo has very, very little value. So it should be abortable.

Now, after seven or eight months, it's different. The fetus looks like a human. It has some limited sentience. It also took plenty of resources to develop. Surely it is worth something, and we could deem it unabortable.

The line is somewhere between the two. Where? We don't know and we probably can't know either. But what we do know is that it's after thirty seconds and before birth. So what you can do is find the last moment when you are comfortable to assert that the fetus is obviously worthless, and conservatively put the line there. That moment sure as hell isn't conception.

Also stop with the loaded terms. Abortion is not killing a child. Calling a fetus a child completely muddles the core issue, which is to determine when a fetus should be considered human in the first place.
 

Nastyjungle

JACKED and sassy
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Yes, there is a difference between an unfertilized egg and a chick. Once fertilization takes place a series of events are in place that lead to the creation of a chick though.

You're calling me thick and you can't see the difference between having an abortion because of emotional distress and giving someone treatment for a wound?
You seem to not understand the difference between a "series of events leading to something" and the actual "something". A child goes through a series of events to become an adult, but a child is not actually an adult until they are an adult. I don't really know how to put this any simpler. An egg goes through a series of events to become a chick, but it isn't a chick until it becomes a chick. It is hard to explain something that should be very easily grasped logic.

And of course emotional distress and physical distress are different things, but you seem to be thick in the fact that you cannot see their similarities. Emotional stress can be far more damaging that physical and the fact that you are acting like it is nothing at all and that denying people "treatment" for their emotional pain is something that is just fine is, to be honest, highly disturbing.
 
Thank you for the reasonable post, Brain. Let me ask you this: What do we have to lose/gain by considering a thirty second old embryo human?

@Nastyjungle: If treating gunshot wounds required killing a baby you might have an argument. But it does not.
 

Nastyjungle

JACKED and sassy
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
@Nastyjungle: If treating gunshot wounds required killing a baby you might have an argument. But it does not.
Having an abortion does not requite killing a baby either.
I think it is quite obvious to see our point of impasse, yes?
 
@Nastyjungle: If treating gunshot wounds required killing a baby you might have an argument. But it does not.
gah what

please tell me why you do not differentiate between the potential for life and life itself so i can actually try and understand. you drawing the line at fertilisation seems completely arbitrary to me right now since the argument that the potential for life is equally valid as life itself is subject to infinite regression: i.e. a foetus has potential to be a baby, a zygote has potential to be a foetus, an ovum has potential to be a zygote, an ovary has potential to produce an egg, a foetus has potential to grow ovaries. You could draw the line anywhere. You're just biased.
 

Fishy

tits McGee (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)
all i can say at this point is thank god women make the ultimate decision, for their best interest.
 
Yes, I too am glad 13 year olds don't get to decide other people can't have abortions

The tragedy is with the young women who are forced to keep their baby because of familial and religious pressure in their community. Those are the young women we have to fight to protect.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
ATTN WORLD:

Although this thread has gotten better, I would like to remind you to keep discussion focused on WHEN ABORTION OF A FETUS BECOMES EQUIVALENT TO MURDER. If you disagree on any other part of an abortion argument, chances are you should be institutionalized. Sure, there are some strange cases in which there may be another valid point you bring up, but in 95% of times you are going to post something not related to the capitalized, bolded point i brought up above you should do the world a favor and kindly stfu.

SECONDLY: Please please please please please STOP calling people racist/misogynist/something else. I have read this entire discussion and maybe I am more capable of civility and empathy than most people but I have not read ONE THING YET that makes anybody seem misogynist and guess what 99.9% of people AREN'T so if you have to resort to saying that sort of thing on anything other than basically direct statement (e.g. "women who have sex before they're ready for babies are whores and should be punished") then chances are THEY ARE NOT ANYTHING so be quiet oh my god i'm so sick of this shit.

This has been a message to: The world

Brain: I think you're misunderstanding my point. I realize that It's A Wonderful Life is a drastic oversimplification, but the truth is, that's basically how it works. I believe that at least 95% of people contribute positively to society, and I think that the more people in society, the better.
 
ATTN WORLD:

Although this thread has gotten better, I would like to remind you to keep discussion focused on WHEN ABORTION OF A FETUS BECOMES EQUIVALENT TO MURDER. If you disagree on any other part of an abortion argument, chances are you should be institutionalized. Sure, there are some strange cases in which there may be another valid point you bring up, but in 95% of times you are going to post something not related to the capitalized, bolded point i brought up above you should do the world a favor and kindly stfu.

SECONDLY: Please please please please please STOP calling people racist/misogynist/something else. I have read this entire discussion and maybe I am more capable of civility and empathy than most people but I have not read ONE THING YET that makes anybody seem misogynist and guess what 99.9% of people AREN'T so if you have to resort to saying that sort of thing on anything other than basically direct statement (e.g. "women who have sex before they're ready for babies are whores and should be punished") then chances are THEY ARE NOT ANYTHING so be quiet oh my god i'm so sick of this shit.
What the fuck are you? Thread police? You're not the OP you can't dictate discussion to avoid what you don't want to talk about. This thread is for discussion of abortion and our thoughts on it, no where does it specify "talking about when a fetus becomes a life"

If this: "If a woman is raped........I still think it's wrong. Abortion is cheating. Its lazy and selfish. I agree it is not fair to the woman to be forced upon a child, but you have to think. There is life inside of you. Yes, there will be unbearable financial as well as moral problems raising a forced child with no help, but you are denying a life, still. " doesn't seem misogynistic to you then you don't understand what the word means ?_?
 
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