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Abortions

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I agree with subsidizing abortions. Here in the U.S., they're actually pretty expensive, sometimes pushing over $1000. And they should be subsidized because often the public would benefit from avoiding unwanted births. Unwanted children are more likely to commit crime or fall into poverty (heck, the mother might already be in poverty), so subsidizing the abortion would save the public (aka taxpayers) in the long run.

As the joke goes, you can pay $0.50 for a condom, $50 for a morning after pill, $5000 for an abortion, or $50000 for a kid until the age of 10.
This. Except with taxpayers buying the clothes and food stamps.
 
I believe that the intrinsic value of an organism is based on its intelligence and sentience not its genetic code.

Ah ok, so mentally retarded people are worthless. Gotcha.

As for the abortion thing, I'm against it but I do not think it should be illegal. I don't feel I have the right to tell people what they can do with thier lives (when its something controversial like abortion). I honestly believe that the fetus is a human because the fetus already has his/her genetics set, and it will eventually become a living, (hopefully) sentinent human. Of course there are always circumstances in which abortion should be considered, such as rape and all that other stuff.

Before you ask, yes I am Catholic, but I honestly believe I don't let it influence me on my stance of abortion. I approve of gay marriage and don't think that gay people are damned to eternal hellfire, just because a few people have outdated views. Also, I find it stupid that people keep saying things like, "you oppose abortion because you are religious/catholic". I am not a zealot and I do not mindlessly follow what some churches dictate. Maybe that means I'm not a "true" catholic, if so then whatev *shrug*.
 
Also, I find it stupid that people keep saying things like, "you oppose abortion because you are religious/catholic". I am not a zealot and I do not mindlessly follow what some churches dictate. Maybe that means I'm not a "true" catholic, if so then whatev *shrug*.
Heh. Think you have it bad in that regard? I'm a pro-life atheist. Yes, we exist, and you would not believe how many people have the gall to tell me otherwise. Apparently, they know my beliefs better than I do. Yeah, that makes perfect bloody sense.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

But I'm not pro-life in the "we must ban abortions NOW!" sense. I agree with you on most of your points. Even if abortions were to be banned now, let's face it - it'd never work. Women would simply get them illegally. The last time the "moral majority" (and I use both those words with utmost sarcasm and contempt) got their way was Prohibition, and we all know how well that one worked out.

So how do we confront this issue? Eliminate not abortion itself, but the need for it. There are two very simple ways to go about this.

1. Increase sex education. If young people understand the consequences of unprotected sex, there will be far fewer unwanted pregnancies.
2. Fix society so that women are not required to choose whether to have kids or go about their lives. Pregnant women face far more problems than they have to - it's not just the physical part. They should be able to go to school, to keep their jobs, stuff like that, and the barriers to this are just...aaargh.

Well, that's my two cents.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

This was briefly mentioned but it's the best logic for its allowance. It's more or less the only reason I support the practice. I'm morally against abortion but the widespread effects are positive. As far as your paper goes this is great place to start, though it doesn't specifically address everything in your original post.

I don't think it should be subsidized but I'm honestly not sure where that stands regarding Australian law.
 
I believe that the intrinsic value of an organism is based on its intelligence and sentience not its genetic code. If humans ever find alien life or succeed in creating artificial life (robots) that can rival the intelligence of us, they should be extended equal rights. I do not believe that early term abortion is wrong because early term fetuses are not sentient.

Firstly, you're quite silly. To suggest intelligence is a measure of worth than that would directly say that a person more intelligent than you is worth more than you are. Other groups in history have rationalized like this, with unequal rights being granted on arbitrary basis', and it ended up with things like the halocaust being rationalized as "acceptable" or "good". Not saying you're a nazi, just saying there is a parallel in the thought processes and maybe you should take a step back and think about that. It's been demonstrated that many animals possess sentience- would you grant an orangutan more rights than someone with severe brain damage?

Fetuses have the potential to become sentient and inevitably will become sentient if intervening factors (ie a coat hanger) don't become an issue.

Anyways, my final word on this for now:

I do think that certain demographics should be able to apply for abortion assistance at the very least. People who are in dire economic troubles and cannot afford a baby, but ended up with one in the oven anyways, are exactly the kinds of people that should not be having babies and worsening their situation or giving birth to the child and having it raised in dire poverty. These people should be helped- if they want an abortion but cannot afford it and the baby/family/people involved will be worse off, it should be subsidized or even free.

Unless, of course, you prefer poor people having large families and shitting up or expanding that demographic even more against the will of the mothers that do want the abortion.
 
Firstly, you're quite silly. To suggest intelligence is a measure of worth than that would directly say that a person more intelligent than you is worth more than you are. Other groups in history have rationalized like this, with unequal rights being granted on arbitrary basis', and it ended up with things like the halocaust being rationalized as "acceptable" or "good". Not saying you're a nazi, just saying there is a parallel in the thought processes and maybe you should take a step back and think about that. It's been demonstrated that many animals possess sentience- would you grant an orangutan more rights than someone with severe brain damage?

This isn't a problem with his position, it's a problem with the definition of sentience. We're rapidly coming to the understanding that whatever we define as sentience is going to include things we didn't intend it to, or exclude things we don't want to.

Taking the literal definition of sentience comes to exactly your problem; young children can't be called sentient. So the definition has changed numerous times, each time being arbitrarily revised to try and equate it to " living human being". Our current definition, as I recall, is predicated on the ability to recognise other people's minds as distinct from your own. Except experiments have shown some birds can recognise other birds as independent thinkers, and autistic spectrum disorders seem to have the affect of inhibiting the development of this ability. Again, humans we want included are excluded, and animals we want excluded are included.

Ultimately, there is a lot less special about human beings than we would like to believe.

Fetuses have the potential to become sentient and inevitably will become sentient if intervening factors (ie a coat hanger) don't become an issue.

This is a problem for any number of reasons. First of all, it's not inevitable. Miscarriages happen all the time. Many women have miscarriages before they even know they're pregnant.

Secondly, the fetus will not become sentient without the "interference" of the mother's womb. Gestation only occurs because the mother feeds it. If the mother could stop interfering, no fetus would become sentient.

Thirdly, there is no point at which you can say there is no potential for life. The potential argument is inherently arbitrary and it is almost always invoked to support a pre-decided belief of the arguer, and not a principle that guided to the conclusion.



Here's a further firestarter for discussion, though: What about eugenics? If you could perform a test to see whether or not your child will be born with cystic fibrosis or other diseases, especially mental handicaps that will reduce it's quality of life (or give you a significantly more taxing job raising it), should you be allowed to abort on that basis?

What if it was some other kind of genetic deficiency, but one that isn't a major problem to quality of life, like colourblindness?

What if it was by gender?

What if it was some other kind of quality, like blonde and blue-eyed?

Should any of these reasons be unsatisfactory grounds for an abortion, and if so, where should the cutoff be and why?
 
Fetuses have the potential to become sentient and inevitably will become sentient if intervening factors (ie a coat hanger) don't become an issue.

By extension, sperm, eggs, etc. have that same potential if intervening factors (condoms, my right hand) don't become an issue.

Why do the rights of a parasite trump the rights of a human being (in this case, the "host")?
 
"sentience is utterly irrelevant to whether an entity is a living human that has rights that should be respected"

There are a lot of non-sentinent entities that are classed as living humans (babies, the mentally disabled, etc)

While a baby is not a parasite in the strict sense (though in a society without modern technology, a baby would be, as the mother has to breastfeed it or it dies), it extracts resources and gives effort, stress, and the only positives are emotional.

I think you can see where I'm going with this.
 
...Plenty of people want to adopt, so adoption helps keep the potential in there while not significantly harming the biological parents. Why not just put unwanted kids up for adoption?

Sorry, but this is an incredibly naïve point that I feel I have to pull you up on. (For the record, I am very pro-adoption, and, if I wanted children myself, would adopt regardless of my infertility. That is, of course, assuming I was approved after the rigorous process I would have to undergo!) There are many people who want to adopt, yes, but not nearly enough to adopt even half the children who need adopting in the world, especially when you consider the time and expenses of even applying to be an adoptive parent, and laws that prevent same-sex couples from adopting, et cetera. In third world countries this is an obvious problem, but it's also an issue elsewhere. Firstly, I'll reference this publication by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare. The PDF can be read here. I'll reference the more up-to-date one as well.

'04-'05:

The main points of interest in the report are as follows:
• There were 585 adoptions of children in Australia in 2004–05, an increase of 17% from
502 adoptions in 2003–04.
• 74% (434) of the adoptions were intercountry adoptions, 11% (65) were local adoptions
and 15% (86) were ‘known’ child adoptions.
In the period of '07-'08, things actually get worse.

In 2007–08, there were 440 adoptions of children in Australia, a 23% decrease from the previous year, and the lowest number of adoptions recorded since 1969–70 (Figure 3.1; Table A1). Of all adoptions in 2007–08, 61% were intercountry adoptions, 16% were local adoptions and 23% were ‘known’ child adoptions.
In fact, from the same report:

The overall decline in adoptions in the last 25 years can be attributed to the fall in the number of Australian children adopted—a 17-fold decline, from 2,884 to 170 between 1982–83 and 2007–08 (Table A4).
Ouch.

The first thing you might hit upon is 'an increase of 17%'. That sounds giant, right? The adoption totals in '03-'04 were 502 and 585 in '04-'05. 74% of these adoptions were from foreign countries (there's a definition in that report that states intercountry adoptions are adoptions by parents in Australia of children from overseas), and the rest were Australian children. 40% were male, 60% were females. etc. etc. What's my point of mentioning this? I'm bringing up the very obvious point that certain children are more likely to be adopted than others. If your child is Aboriginal, don't expect it to be adopted:

Four Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children were adopted in 2007–08. Only 96 Indigenous children have been adopted over the last 17 years.
And if they are not adopted in the first year of their life, they most likely won't be adopted, at least in Australia:

'04-'05
• 88% of these adoptions were of children aged under 1 year (Table A4.1)
'07-'08
In local and intercountry adoptions, nearly all children were less than 5 years old (99% and 92% respectively); whereas for ‘known’ child adoptions, most children were aged 10 years and over (69%).
(Known adoptions aren't really relevant because the majority of those are from step-parents, which is an entirely different story.)

Pardon the comparison, which I am sure some will find objectionable, but this is rather similar to a pound (in this aspect). When someone goes to adopt a dog, they will generally choose the boisterous, healthy young puppy who will most likely be with them a long time, rather than the old dog who is perfectly fine but is 'getting on'. 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks,' is one thing that may go through their mind. I'm sure you can imagine the other things.

I'm having trouble finding a good statistic for children that were actually placed for adoption each year, which sadly undermines my point, but I guarantee you there are a bunch of them who aren't getting adopted. As my statistics show, tbh, adoption is only a realistic option for certain children. You can't just put a child for adoption that is an Indigenous male in Australia or something and expect him to get adopted. The reality of the matter is that he most likely won't.

Frankly, I'd rather abort than put my child up for an uncertain chance at adoption. I have nothing against those who put their children up for adoption. It's utterly their choice and little of my business. But I personally would find it worrisome, and there are other women who abort because they think it's the kindest option, not because they just don't care and someone else can take the kid. By the way, we all know that sibling groups aren't commonly adopted together, so if you've had twins (rare albeit), that just gets even more difficult.

While I admire those who make the noble decision to foster parent children who are being shunted around, I do not think foster parenting is a good solution, especially considering the child will likely end up moved from foster family to foster family.

akuchi summed up all the other points I was going to put in my post, so I won't bother reiterating them.
 
While a baby is not a parasite in the strict sense (though in a society without modern technology, a baby would be, as the mother has to breastfeed it or it dies), it extracts resources and gives effort, stress, and the only positives are emotional.

Please don't strawman my post to read "babies are parasites after being born and aren't human because they are dumb". I was talking about embryos and fetuses, "potential life" if you prefer the term. They are for all intents and purposes, parasites, for at least several weeks of gestation. They have no means of survival outside of their host, and significant, occasionally fatal, strain is put on the living host's body and mind. I don't see why this person's rights are secondary to something that's not a person yet.

Abortion is a tricky moral issue - if you don't consider the stress and strain it puts on the mother's entire life. It's not like you can just wait 9 months, pass it, and then "oh well that was a fun 9 months i'm going back to being a normal person now without a bulgy chest lolol".
 
Personally, I think that a woman's "choice" comes before the sex, not after. I recognize though that things happen. What if you are raped? drunk? under 18? Below the poverty line? What if you will die if you have a baby? What if the baby has a terrible defect that will make its life miserable? All of these factors deserve consideration, but the thing is that you can't enact laws for allowing abortions if people are drunk, etc. That just opens the floodgates. I am not sure if your paper has more to do with simply philosophy or actually enacting laws, but there are clear challenges in enacting completely fair laws regarding exceptions for abortions while banning abortion entirely. There is also a large probability that an abortion ban would cause more back alley abortions, more orphans, and probably more crime as well.

While I value the life of a fetus, I think that saying that they are protected by the constitution itself is flawed reasoning. Babies certainly don't have the freedom of assembly or the freedom to take up arms, yet the American Constitution supposedly guarantees those too. Why do we extend some rights to the unborn while they clearly cannot have others? That is silly.

All in all, it seems better just to let the mother decide herself because I find abuse of laws to be only slightly more tolerable than people being fucked over by laws.
 
I agree with Anachronism in that the women who choose to have sex should know at the outset that there is some chance that they will be pregnant. If you really can't afford to support a child or just don't want one, then don't have sex, period. The true purpose of sex in the first place is to procreate, so it shouldn't be a surprise that when you have sex, sometimes the woman gets pregnant. So, along these lines I would say that we should focus more on sex education and then if women still get pregnant after knowing the possibilities then it is their own fault and they should have to carry to term.

Of course, my point leaves out cases such as rape, knowing the fetus has defects, etc. In these cases I am personally not sure what to say and I think there is room for debate.
 
Firstly, you're quite silly. To suggest intelligence is a measure of worth than that would directly say that a person more intelligent than you is worth more than you are.
Determination of worth based on intelligence is nothing new. Which would make you feel worse, stepping on a bug or running over a dog?
Other groups in history have rationalized like this, with unequal rights being granted on arbitrary basis', and it ended up with things like the halocaust being rationalized as "acceptable" or "good". Not saying you're a nazi, just saying there is a parallel in the thought processes and maybe you should take a step back and think about that.
Whether something is human or not is far more arbitrary than its intelligence. As for the nazi thing, I believe that any being that approaches normal human intelligence should be given at least as many rights as people have in most developed countries now. I don't advocate taking rights away from people.
It's been demonstrated that many animals possess sentience- would you grant an orangutan more rights than someone with severe brain damage?
If someone is Brain-damaged to the point that they cannot think well they might as well have already died.
Fetuses have the potential to become sentient and inevitably will become sentient if intervening factors (ie a coat hanger) don't become an issue.
So do almost any pair of sperm and egg
 
1. Increase sex education. If young people understand the consequences of unprotected sex, there will be far fewer unwanted pregnancies.

This will definitely help, and I believe sex ed should be taught in more than one grade (One semester for an extremely useful subject is NOT going to cut it)...



Personal anecdote: My life skills class in 7th grade made each person do reports on random STDs. It scared me the shit, but I'm paranoid with protection now.
 
If you really can't afford to support a child or just don't want one, then don't have sex, period. The true purpose of sex in the first place is to procreate, so it shouldn't be a surprise that when you have sex, sometimes the woman gets pregnant. So, along these lines I would say that we should focus more on sex education and then if women still get pregnant after knowing the possibilities then it is their own fault and they should have to carry to term.

It's never the guy's fault, of course. Nope.

I don't think this is going to work as written. Guess what? People know that having sex gets you pregnant! Increasing sex education does nothing to fix that. What it would do is facilitate more use of birth control, which is a good thing, but you're rather naively assuming that if you tell teenagers that they could get pregnant, they'll decide not to have sex. Haha, good one.

Despite that, if you have more non-abstinence oriented sex education, you will likely have less abortions.

Many aborted babies are not the result of purely unprotected sex when the woman had no intention of getting pregnant, and people should stop assuming that.
 
Chris is me, you'd be surprised just how uneducated many youths are about sex: sex education would go a long way to preventing adolescent pregnancies. Tons of people still think that if you pull out you can't impregnate a female (never mind pre-semen).

The only thing that sucks about that is that it takes kids away from gym class which is awesome. Personally, I hated health class; it mad me so angry that we had to do that instead of gym. Im in uni now so it doesn't really matter... but I'm still bitter.
 
So how do we confront this issue? Eliminate not abortion itself, but the need for it. There are two very simple ways to go about this.

1. Increase sex education. If young people understand the consequences of unprotected sex, there will be far fewer unwanted pregnancies.
2. Fix society so that women are not required to choose whether to have kids or go about their lives. Pregnant women face far more problems than they have to - it's not just the physical part. They should be able to go to school, to keep their jobs, stuff like that, and the barriers to this are just...aaargh.

Well, that's my two cents.

I couldn't have said it any better. For starters they need to start teaching actual sex ed instead of this "abstinence only" bullshit. I swear, you would think my science teacher was paid everytime she told us "abstinence only" was the best way to prevent pregnancy. Anyone with half a brain knows that people will always want to have sex.
 
Is "Abstinence Only" widespread in schools in the US? I know for us we started getting talks on condoms in grade 7 or 8. They of course told us the only 100% guarantee is no sex and condoms were more like 99%, but that's true. Condoms aren't a 100% guarantee and people need to be aware of that too.
 
Is "Abstinence Only" widespread in schools in the US? I know for us we started getting talks on condoms in grade 7 or 8. They of course told us the only 100% guarantee is no sex and condoms were more like 99%, but that's true. Condoms aren't a 100% guarantee and people need to be aware of that too.

In many less progressive parts of the country, yes. Some are "abstinence oriented" like my old public high school, where a teacher told me that latex condoms were full of microscopic holes and failed to prevent pregnancy over 50% of the time.
 
Is "Abstinence Only" widespread in schools in the US? I know for us we started getting talks on condoms in grade 7 or 8. They of course told us the only 100% guarantee is no sex and condoms were more like 99%, but that's true. Condoms aren't a 100% guarantee and people need to be aware of that too.

Condoms, when used properly and with spermicide, are actually rated higher than 99%, it's closer to 99.99%. 99% is their conservative estimate.

I don't know how widespread abstinence-only education is, but I'm led to believe it's very common among the Bible Belt. Interestingly, areas with high levels of abstinence-based sex education also have the highest rates of teen pregnancy.

EDIT: Did I imagine this, or didn't the Pope have to make formal retractions about comments he made about condoms causing AIDS or something like that a few years ago?
 
Condoms, when used properly and with spermicide, are actually rated higher than 99%, it's closer to 99.99%. 99% is their conservative estimate.

I don't know how widespread abstinence-only education is, but I'm led to believe it's very common among the Bible Belt. Interestingly, areas with high levels of abstinence-based sex education also have the highest rates of teen pregnancy.

EDIT: Did I imagine this, or didn't the Pope have to make formal retractions about comments he made about condoms causing AIDS or something like that a few years ago?


Unfortunately, condoms are not always used properly! I, despite the reasonable amount of sex I have had, still do not know how to put one on - noone ever taught me! So, I have to rely on the boy to do it, and sometimes they have broken. Once or twice they have broken and the boy, charmingly, has neglected to mention this until afterwards!

Similarly, hormonal contraception is not suitable for all women.
And sometimes, people are silly, and they take risks.

This does not mean a woman deserves to be 'punished' with a baby, for being careless - you are punishing that child just as much as the woman, for it is unwanted, and kids have a tendency to pick up on that sort of thing.

I also do not believe any woman seriously uses abortion as a form of birth control. Abortions are not fun, people! I know of several cases where women have had repeated abortions in the media - these women were being abused by their father.

Something else I am a little curious to; if you really think these women are so careless and stupid as to get pregnant in the first place, and so selfish and heartless to kill an innocent, helpless baby that is still in her uterus just because it suits her - why the fuck would you want that person raising a child?
 
Unfortunately, condoms are not always used properly! I, despite the reasonable amount of sex I have had, still do not know how to put one on - noone ever taught me! So, I have to rely on the boy to do it, and sometimes they have broken. Once or twice they have broken and the boy, charmingly, has neglected to mention this until afterwards!
It's also worth bearing in mind exactly how failure rates for contraceptives are done:

The failure rate normally given of a form of contraception is the chance a couple having sex using the contraception for a year will get pregnant. (Obviously frequency of intercourse should be a factor, so it's for the average). Typically figures are published both for 'ideal use' and for 'real world' use.

So while the typical real-world failure rate of the male condom is "15%", that doesn't mean a 15% chance of pregnancy from one act of intercourse, but a 15% chance of pregnancy over a year.

Of course, the most reliable contraception (excluding abstinence) is to use two (complementary) methods - most commonly the pill and the condom.

(In fact of course while abstinence has zero 'perfect use' failure rate, it has a real world failure rate, since someone who intends to be abstinent may have sex under the influence of drink or drugs, or be a victim of rape.)
 
Chris is me, you'd be surprised just how uneducated many youths are about sex: sex education would go a long way to preventing adolescent pregnancies. Tons of people still think that if you pull out you can't impregnate a female (never mind pre-semen).

Well, yeah, that's why sex ed's important. But if the way you're teaching sex ed is "don't fuck and you won't get pregnant", you're not changing anything.

The only thing that sucks about that is that it takes kids away from gym class which is awesome. Personally, I hated health class; it mad me so angry that we had to do that instead of gym. Im in uni now so it doesn't really matter... but I'm still bitter.

Most schools offer health as a normal class.
 
Please don't strawman my post to read "babies are parasites after being born and aren't human because they are dumb". I was talking about embryos and fetuses, "potential life" if you prefer the term. They are for all intents and purposes, parasites, for at least several weeks of gestation. They have no means of survival outside of their host, and significant, occasionally fatal, strain is put on the living host's body and mind. I don't see why this person's rights are secondary to something that's not a person yet.

good job begging the question, seeing the whole point is whether an embryo or fetus is "potential life" or simply "life", and whether they are "potential persons" or simply "persons".

Of course having babies is a massive burden. but if we're really going to make the choice that "mother's rights > baby's rights" then we basically descend into Orwellian "some are more equal than others" territory (because one of the foundational notions of modern civilization is the fundamental equality of all humans - and if fetuses are humans, then their rights stand equal to those of the mother).

Also, sex education here sucks when it is offered. The kids are too immature and stupid about it anyway for it to have a real effect, the culture forces sexual irresponsibility down our collective throat too much and too loudly for rationality to have an impact, and even people who aren't particularly socially conservative are just uncomfortable with sex in the classroom, especially when it gets beyond "STDs" and goes into "doing contraception right" - most parents are not comfortable with their children being sexually active, and it will not change appreciably anytime soon.
 
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