Approved Adding neutral speed investment to tool tips

Celticpride

Celticpride

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On tooltips, (seen above), would it be possible to add 0 EVs, neutral nature, 31 IVs Speed stat somewhere? It's a much more useful measure to have than 0 EVs, 0 IVs and a negative nature (minimum speed). Alongside 252 EVs, positive nature, 31 IVs (maximum speed), neutral speed is one of the most common speed setups. I have no strong preference as to how this could be integrated, but it would be a very helpful number to have in an at-a-glance situation. Adding the base speed instead (if that looks cleaner) could also work, but would be less directly useful and might have to be added on both sides of tooltips to be effective, ie tell me what the base speed of my mon is too in the battle screen.

Let me know what you think!
 
DrPumpkinz said:
252 neutral nature is also pretty common on wallbreakers, so I think that should also be shown.
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At this point can’t you just use /dt [mon] into /statcalc [stat] in order to avoid cluttering up the ui? I do agree that 0 spe neutral nature should be shown though.
 
Geysers said:
At this point can’t you just use /dt [mon] into /statcalc [stat] in order to avoid cluttering up the ui? I do agree that 0 spe neutral nature should be shown though.
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Not only is it very inconvenient to jump through two commands, most players don't know commands exist, and most of the ones who do only know the basic ones like /dt (this is my first time hearing about /statcalc, for example). Also, 0- is much rarer than 0±, 252±, and 252+, so if there truly is space for only three speed values in the UI, I'd argue 0- is the one that should go.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
Not only is it very inconvenient to jump through two commands, most players don't know commands exist, and most of the ones who do only know the basic ones like /dt (this is my first time hearing about /statcalc, for example). Also, 0- is much rarer than 0±, 252±, and 252+, so if there truly is space for only three speed values in the UI, I'd argue 0- is the one that should go.
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Listing every single jump point for the speed stat on the tooltips would make them unbearable to look at. At that point do the calc yourself or simply check the base speed stats of both mons. any competitive player typically knows which pokemon might run neutral nature 252 Speed EVs, and although 0- Spe is much rarer than 252 neutral, the point of the tooltip is to provide bounds of the stat and not every single relevant thing, especially considering relevance is subjective. If anything, 3 stats is arguably too much, but going min speed-middle speed-max speed is more likely to be approved than speed n-speed n+1-speed n+2-etc

e: I understand that is not what you're arguing, but i am just providing insight to why the bounds are preferred
 
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having notable benchmarks is way too much, but I definitely agree with neutral 0 investment, since most mons dont run -speed ivs or nature
 
So the four most useful values to show are:

A at 0/0-
B at 31/0
C at 31/252
D at 31/252+

The current text is:

Spe: A to D (before items/abilities/modifiers)

If we were to change this, I'd want it to stay as a one-liner. I'd also want it to be true (if we wrote "B to D", that would be a lie).

This is actually really constrained. One option might be:

Spe: B uninvested / D max (before mods)

I might tentatively agree to two lines with the fine print on the second line:

Spe: min- A / default B / max C / max+ D
(before items/abilities/modifiers)

I'd be interested to hear if people had better ideas about layout, though.
 
Speaking of the tooltip, what if we changed

Possible Abilities: Gluttony, Flash Fire, White Smoke

to:

Ability: Gluttony?, Flash Fire?, White Smoke?

or

Ability: ? (Gluttony, Flash Fire, White Smoke)

I think it would make them fit on one line more often, and I also like that it starts with "Ability" instead of "Possible", and "Ability" is the more important word there.
 
Celticpride said:
Zarel I would be in favor of showing A-B-D, its minimum, default and maximum. Its simple, clean and not really subjective. 31/252 neutral really isn't /that/ common either, enough to merit special consideration.
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there are a lot of attacker that run adamant or modest and still want speed evs
 
Celticpride said:
31/252 neutral really isn't /that/ common either, enough to merit special consideration.
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Pretty much any offensive mon that's faster than like.... Snorlax, and slower than ~90 runs that. Even base 45's like Conkeldurr and Marowak run max neutral if they aren't running some specific speed creep number.
 
kakaks said:
there are a lot of attacker that run adamant or modest and still want speed evs
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I don't disagree, the question whether its prevalent enough to merit special consideration. I do not believe that to be the case.

Part of the consideration is keeping the UI less cluttered too.
 
Celticpride said:
I don't disagree, the question whether its prevalent enough to merit special consideration. I do not believe that to be the case.

Part of the consideration is keeping the UI less cluttered too.
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then just removing a would be better. you use 31, 252 and neutral more often than 0, 0 and reducing
 
DrPumpkinz said:
Couldn't the same be said for deducing A from B?
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Subtracting 31 then reducing 10% is an extra step than just removing 10%, esp if you dont know the order to do those things. From my perspective, I use D to tell me a mons speed tier, so i know C too now. Memorizing speed tiers doesnt help with B or A though, so they should be there
 
Boat said:
Subtracting 31 then reducing 10% is an extra step than just removing 10%, esp if you dont know the order to do those things. From my perspective, I use D to tell me a mons speed tier, so i know C too now. Memorizing speed tiers doesnt help with B or A though, so they should be there
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Maybe, but short of Trick Room and Gyro Ball, pretty much nothing runs min speed, and the things that do are usually so slow that you usually don't need to know their exact speed to know if you're faster. It's UI real estate wasted on usually-irrelevant information.
 
I think the best solution if implemented would be:
Speed: Min/Max: (insert 0IV/0EV - nature/ 31IV/252+ EV)
31IV/0EV: (value here) | 31IV/252 EV: (Value here)

So long as you're okay with 2 lines Zarel. (So the top line would be A-D as it is now and 2nd line being C and D.
 
Uninv: B - Max: D (C), with potential for (252:C) instead
i think 0- is easier to derive because it most important when you have 0- (easy comparison using 0). tr is more uncommon (at least i think) and with slow pivots wars, they are limited as well. Both cases you would be running 0- pretty often. Gyro Ball mons ig but you are so slow anyway that gyro does big damage or little damage (and you outspeed). Also, the 10% modifier is also not as big of an impact bc we're working with smaller numbers.
 
From my personal experience as a player, I disagree with displaying B over C and would rather not see it if it ends up cluttering the tooltip. I have often in battle wanted to know C quickly and have never been interested in B, which varies anyway due to speed creep. You can also take a look at the OU speed tiers and observe that 252 and 0 spe Pokemon are for the most part clustered into top and bottom portions, meaning that you be able to use min/max speed for all comparisons except for the very small intersection in the middle. I also think that C would be the easiest additional value to convey elegantly in a tooltip: A - D (C), or A - C (D). As Zarel said, I think A should remain on the tooltip for semantic accuracy, even though it's generally less useful than B.
 
Made a mockup of what listing all four speeds might look like. I also threw in the change to the ability text that Zarel pitched.

edited mouseover.png
 
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