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Tournament ADPL 9 Commencement Thread

As someone who goes undrafted a lot of tours, this is simply the norm for me. I think people just take Smogon in general way too seriously. This is supposed to be a hobby, and you shouldn't harass managers over being undrafted. I saw a lot of discussion about grinding individual tours, and that is a great way to succeed, but you need consistency there. Managers don't want a player who has one good showing in an individual tour, because they want someone who is consistently good at the game. Just continue to improve. As for me, I wasn't going to get drafted since this is an OU-based tour and my results are, to put it bluntly, middling at best, as I am not even good enough for OUFL. GL to everyone who got drafted and have a great tour.
 
yone said:
ADPL in this economy should have a no spl/scl players rule, the custom avatar prize culture made it easier to ruin all the concept of adpl was built on
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Honestly all you have to do is remove the Custom Avatar prize, and you will suddenly see a lot of newer players get a chance to shine as the number of sign ups will significantly decrease.

I think people aren't unhappy about being undrafted necessarily, it's the fact, which I have been trying to emphasise, that it misleads you into thinking its purpose is to promote newer talent/players, which farm leagues and the Discord developmental leagues do way better.

My final comment here would be to propose the following in the future:
  • If we keep 'ADPL', create 'ADFL' where undrafted players (new players who haven't featured in a team tour being the priority) get a chance to shine, and then they have additional results for future tours
  • Limit the number of players a manager can get in each team, and then assign more undrafted players into each pool (which should have a balance of new and more experienced players)
  • Otherwise, consider how the hosts advertise ADPL that it's actually just a regular competitive team tour and newer players are unlikely to get in
We do have Dynasty League coming up (a new tour created with no CA prize), which has similar formats to ADPL, so I would highly recommend new players signing up there - hopefully you get more chance of getting drafted and showcasing your talent!
 
yone said:
ADPL in this economy should have a no spl/scl players rule, the custom avatar prize culture made it easier to ruin all the concept of adpl was built on
Click to expand...
I understand the sentiment, especially regarding on how this tour is advertised. It most likely isn’t on purpose, but due to the competitive nature of this game managers would put themselves at a disadvantage NOT drafting the best possible team with the available pool of players.

However I think it wouldn’t hurt to have some cap on the amount of players of a certain ‘skill-level’. Mixing in SCL/SPL/WCOP-level players with newer and less experienced players can help elevate said players and introduce them to the cutthroat environment of high-level Showdown. Maybe put a cap of like 2-3 players who have experience in SCL/SPL/WCOP.

Also the way it’s advertised should completely get an overhaul:

> Welcome to the 9th edition of ADPL, and the third sponsored by Trainer Academy! Hosted by myself and cala_aa . This is a team tour that will encourage learning a team tour environment through placing undrafted players in a pool that will be automatically distributed among the teams, with one week of guaranteed play time for each player. From prepping, mock games, tiebreaks, last second substitutions, crazy upsets, and heartbreak: no matter the skill level players WILL be able to participate. The teams who will succeed will need to not only succeed in crafting a team of skilled individuals for all listed tiers, but also be able to lift up their less experienced players to unexpected wins. For less experienced players, this is one of if not the best opportunities to get drafted and compete for a custom avatar, as well as experience a higher level of play than they may be used to.
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This is just not true and the description should change.
 
Spoontech said:
I think it wouldn’t hurt to have some cap on the amount of players of a certain ‘skill-level’. Mixing in SCL/SPL/WCOP-level players with newer and less experienced players can help elevate said players and introduce them to the cutthroat environment of high-level Showdown. Maybe put a cap of like 2-3 players who have experience in SCL/SPL/WCOP.
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Definitely yeah, but why I did not say wcup is because in a lot of countries, some ppl are in the lineup to get enough players u know, but completely agree on the rest
 
yone said:
Definitely yeah, but why I did not say wcup is because in a lot of countries, some ppl are in the lineup to get enough players u know, but completely agree on the rest
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Not knowledgable enough about players and WCOP lineups, but I’d assume most mainstage lineups don’t have those fillers surely?

But yeah criteria is something that can be researched for quite some time until the next edition.


Offtopic from this discussion but Memphis being undrafted is hilarious. Hope he will learn from all the experience, might be a tough run for him.
 
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Are we all looking at the same tour? Yea, there are a lotta established players here, but I also see many new names across every team. I don't agree with the sentiment that "people aren't unhappy about being undrafted they just feel misled" because there are a number of people who have explicitly said it's just "the same players as always" which is objectively untrue, signifying they are discontent that they were not the new players here.

I think the issue lies in how people are defining "new" players. Even if you've been drafted for other tours, if you haven't really gotten to sink your teeth into a full season I believe you still qualify as a new player. This tour serves as the jumping off point for players who have given some indication that they have the potential for a real breakout performance. But I think a lotta people see "new" players as players who have barely scratched the surface and have very little results to their name. You still have to be recognizable to managers and present them with a valid reason to draft you. And at the risk of sounding combative, I will be brutally honest and say most people who likely think they did that are mistaken. To whoever wants feedback, whether you already sent me a tryout or not, shoot me a dm and we can have a discussion of what I think managers would like to see out of you and what I think your next steps should be.

I will also mention that we literally had a format discussion thread that got barely any activity. A lot of concerns that were raised here were things we could have addressed before the tour even started, but instead we're left with "we should change this and that" after the fact when we can't do anything about it. Before I was even part of the adpl management team, I voiced many suggestions to hosts, all of which were heard. And in case you missed format discussion, you can still always shoot a host a dm anytime before draft, we literally discuss everything that is brought to us and have not been afraid to make sharp turns when needed.

ADPL is simply not gonna be like what it was when it was a discord tour, I know some people will lament that and I understand why, but everything on this site is constantly evolving. Instead of saying hey let's remove certain players or remove the custom avatar prize to disincentivize good players from signing up, how about we focus on improving results so that you actually present as promising candidates to be drafted? Again, this tour is not about drafting everyone and their mother, it's about drafting people who actually have a future in tours and can benefit from the experience of seasoned players. It is up to you to give a reason why you are the future.
 
ive never lost an gsc ou game @managers (dont ask how many ive played)

wait im a little late shoot

also like the ca culture makes this tour kinda fail at its goal but thats not my place to say much and others have said both sides of the argument much better then i could.
 
I hope you all realize there was a discussion thread where everyone could of given their valuable insights and had it be implemented for this tour instead of crashing out here, by my count there was only waci's post who was a previous undrafted player writing about their experience and pushing for undrafted bo3(which I completely agreed with too), the only other new player was incognition who made a post (which credit where its due at least he tried to make a push for changes he believed in), just 2 messages of support compared to the other messages was probably not enough to continue last year's format, asking for restrictions and other changes after the auction and dogpiling on hosts/tour for something you had multiple weeks for is straight up pathetic.

Now going on to rest of the messages being spammed here on how this tour is advertised and new players not getting a chance is straight up baffling, what do you mean new players aren't getting a chance in this tour LMAO. This tour gets 500+ signups every year, you cannot reasonably expect everyone will get a shot, and saying all official caliber players should not be allowed for this tour making it a farm league straight up defeats the point, you absolutely want official caliber players playing and being on your team, getting their prep support and fighting them in a tour setting giving you a chance to beat them which helps your resume for officials and other tours is about as good as you can ask for, this tour being right after SPL acts as a self limiter on them signing up as a good amount get burnt out and don't sign up, so only a few do which hits the perfect criteria you want, you get a mix of few official caliber players and people who would usually not get picked getting picked because the usual top end didn't sign up, which if you see the auction results was the case and multiple people who fall a tier or more below the officials player got picked.
Farm leagues are barely ever going to help you get into serious tours because all you did was defeat completely new players or players about your skill level which gives you no differentiation at all, managers want to see you beat people who you will probably be fighting in a premiere league which would give them confidence to get you.

There may be a difference in how we define newer players, but this tour fills both types of definition, quoting fragments to me newer players are this,
Fragments said:
I think the issue lies in how people are defining "new" players. Even if you've been drafted for other tours, if you haven't really gotten to sink your teeth into a full season I believe you still qualify as a new player. This tour serves as the jumping off point for players who have given some indication that they have the potential for a real breakout performance.
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Even if your definition for newer players is completely new players, there are 16 slots available right for them which I don't think any other tour is doing, teams are also forced to have them in the starting roster of the week for at minimum 1 game so they get the complete prep and play experience where rest of team helps them because score will depend on them too, along with that even the players drafted in the auction probably as a sub still have to play at minimum 1 game as well so no one is left without getting a tour game.

Custom Avatar is given for the tour so that there is an incentive for people to care and try, hence keeping the tour competitive, you don't want a tour without a prize which will get rid of its competitiveness and make vast majority not care because there is nothing even if you win (specifically for the more experienced people who will get drafted in other tours)

This tour has been going on for 8 years or so at this point and by now there have been 100s of newer players whose first team tour was this and from then went on to do to well in other tours and get drafted in them, so the tour is absolutely succeeding in its goal year on year and saying otherwise is straight up wrong. There was a undrafted bo3 last year for example which was with the goal of giving undrafted players a game every week which mattered for the overall score too making the rest team help them out, it ultimately did not get received well because of the tier picking and other factors, but there was a very good attempt on integrating them even more, and I am sure in the future there may be other trials like this too.

Being salty about not getting picked/snubbed is understandable and its one thing, shitting on the tour and hosts which go above and beyond in everything to make this a positive experience which newer players and people on the cusp get something good out of is completely another.
 
As an undrafted I quite agree that it's ridiculous to complain to managers as to why you were undrafted. If you weren't picked, it simply means you didn't catch their attention, get better and try again next time uh :worrywhirl: (being sad for being undrafted is a thing but harrassing managers for it is an other)
 
As an undrafted, I request a tour ban for the managers of the Sorcerers, the Infernapes and the Troupe.
It's okay not to draft everybody but having 2.500 or 500 credits remaining should be considered a crime against humanity

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React haha if you agree chat
 
Underlying = SPL Player (5 games played this season)
heileone = SPL Player (8 games played this season)
Axzel = SPL Player (9 games played this season)
RealJester = SPL Player (8 games played this season)
fakenagol = SPL Player (6 games played this season)
A Hero's Destiny = Past SPL Player
Django = SPL Player

KeshBa54 = WCOP Player
Ahsan-219 = WCOP Player

TyCarter = Well-known player even to me.

Lacks, White Atoq, Xurkiyee, Nemosse = Players confidently known to me.

Glurakaiser = Player I have seen the name of before, or who I know through external contexts.

WraxiusGaming = Player I am completely unfamiliar with.
Upshot: 41% SPL players, 52% SPL+WCOP players, 88% confidently known tournament faces (to me).

ACR1 = SPL Player (8 games played this season)
ziloXX = SPL Player
Ikaishi = SPL Player (9 games played this season)
Le Don = Past SPL Player
Quarante8 = Past SPL Player

Abele = WCOP Player
haxlolo = WCOP Player

Ann = SCL Player

Brandonlee1, Maris Bonibell = Players confidently known to me.

summer islands, PixelBob, LimonPokefan, Mik3y = Players I have seen the name of before, or who I know through external contexts.

Steez Ibanez, Misterioussaint, FJ2K, VictoriasDelibirds = Players I am completely unfamiliar with.
Upshot: 28% SPL players, 38% SPL+WCOP players, 44% SPL+WCOP+SCL players, 55% confidently known tournament faces (to me).

One Last Kiss = Past SPL Player
oiponabys = Past SPL Player
lighthouses = Past SPL Player
MGdos16 = SPL Player (4 games played this season)
Fdmw = SPL Player
Savouras = Past SPL Player

Fakee = WCOP Player
chansey and lulu = WCOP Player
yone = WCOP Player
Chaos23333 = WCOP Player
Silent Waltz = WCOP Player
Enzobanana = WCOP Player

Kaboom = SCL Player
SupaGmoney = SCL Player

Seanobiwan = Player confidently known to me.

oakdeon, DeezCastforms = Players I have seen the name of before, or who I know through external contexts.
Upshot: 35% SPL players, 71% SPL+WCOP players, 82% SPL+WCOP+SCL players, 88% confidently known tournament faces (to me).

I'm not going to do the rest because it's tedious, but you get the picture. I think the Marshadow Mafia are probably an outlier as a team that has dedicated a fair number of slots to newer players, but I suspect I could be wrong about that. Also, the "confidently known tournament faces (to me)" would also be a large underestimate in some cases as a metric to how known someone actually is, such as for the TSS; oakdeon and DeezCastforms are RBY players who would be known to the RBY community, but not to me. Hence why I am skeptical about the comparatively lower % given to the MM in comparison to other teams, the remaining which likely mirror or are close to the LL and TSS.

Can we dispense with the notion that this tournament has literally anything to do with new players, apart from the 2 undrafteds who will likely play a single game and then be benched for the rest of the tournament? That's not to say that those players who are motivated to help and participate won't have a positive experience in the season, but I'm really wondering how much engagement they're going to get given the competition for whatever their preferred slot is, easily seen from the above.

While the main reason why this tournament gets so many signups is obviously because of the undrafted lottery, I wouldn't discount the branding as having a negligent contribution. We can see in this thread a few players who are annoyed that they weren't drafted, obviously because they expected something called "Academy" to be, I don't know, filled with students and not the Smogon equivalent of PhDs?

I also find the standard advice given to these new players, "Just get good bro! Just get better results bro! Then you'll get noticed bro!" to be misleading. While one's results are (usually) a necessary precondition, they seem to pale in comparison to the results of socializing and networking. It's sad to say, but jestergooning in front of a manager will always have a much larger chance of affecting their draft then going that one extra round in SSNL. As a side note, I've always found that telling a user to just keep their head down and keep grinding seems like a great way to breed resentment when they're mad they didn't get drafted. One reason the user might feel slighted is precisely because they went and they did that, only for someone with less results than they have to get drafted instead. Instead of explaining to them that their results (whatever they might be in context) do not entitle them to be drafted and the importance of networking with the broader community (the probable difference maker), we just give them some inane platitude like the above. I think this just adds unnecessary time to the user's journey to that team tournament experience or CA or whatever their goal is.

What is most ironic is that the best way to improve is community involvement and engagement, but for the "Academy" PL, which one would think would be a great way to both improve and network, it is effectively gatekept by - not having enough community engagement and involvement! Amazing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If we really care about "new players" or whatever, some quality controls could be implemented in future additions. The first iteration of Masters PL did this excellently, where they just barred participation if you had a set number of SPL / WCOP games. You could implement a "graduation" feature, e.g. if a user finished with a score of X-Y (X > Y by some amount Z) while their team made playoffs, they cannot participate in next the ADPL season, or the winning team cannot participate in the next ADPL season, or... etc. Something like this would seemingly go a long way in solving the "it's just the same people getting drafted over and over" complaint from some.

Personally, I wouldn't mind not being able to participate in the tournament if it led to a larger number of different / newer players getting a chance to play in a tight team-tournament environment. If they're not going to get drafted for anything else, I don't really see why we can't just let them have their own fun multi-gen development league of sorts. There's tons of other tournaments during the year anyways with a similar enough tier split.

I don't expect such a move to gain traction, but I wanted to make up for being lazy and not saying anything in the format discussion thread. Overall, I empathize with a lot of the players who are trying to make their big break, some of which who did get drafted in this tournament and who I hope go on to succeed. But that also includes those who didn't get drafted as well, and I hope they are able to find enjoyment in this hobby in the same way most of us do - communally.
 
if you bar entry to certain players you would have to remove the custom avatar as per the smogon rules. not a positive or a negative but by the looks of things the only reason this tournament gets as many signups as it does compared to farmers leagues like oufl is because of that. by the looks of it seem a lot of people just see the custom avatar prize and click in and dont actually care about improving
 
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