ADV Doubles

I don't see a reason to no unban Deoxys-Defense in this tier. Is like a more versatile Registeel with worst defensive typing...and Registeel isn't even ranked. That no means that Registeel is unviable, in fact is pretty decent spaming paralyisis with the broken move called Thunder wave (watch out for lum berries) and has Explosion (but isn't mandatory this move for it). It should be at C rank (specially if people start runing lum berry in most mons) but personally I think B is a fine option. Is a steel type that can survive 2 hydropumps in rain against mons like Kingdra, Ludicolo or even Omastar (if lefties and no mystic water omastar is guaranteed) with a specially defensive set.

Thinking about possible sets for Deoxys-D ...and the best sets maybe are a support set with move like Thunder wave, Recover, Psychic stab or Ice beam + filler move (maybe even spikes, but isn't that good).....and a Calm mind set (ofensive + 3 attacks or more defensive with recover + 2 attacks. The first set has competition with Registeel, Jirachi, Zapdos, Deoxys-Speed or Starmie (all with bulky evs) and the second has competition with Jirachi, Suicune, Deoxys-Speed, Celebi and Raikou.

Just unban Deo-D.

Latios/as and the other Deoxys forms maybe aren't enough broken if unbaned but the metagame is possibly better without this mons, not sure. Unban a Latias seem a decent option to start see things.


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Pretty late to this but the spotlight tour recently ended and I like the tier so here's my personal VR. Hope there's a reason to play it again. Also, even though the ladder is gone for now, the tier is still playable through challenges on Showdown.
(roughly ordered, not confident in every placement)

I consider anything T4 and above to be worth seriously using, with a bit of a consistency drop off once you get to T4 (for the record, Starmie would be T3 and Marowak T4 if they were on this)
T5 mons are still usable but I find most to be too inconsistent personally (as well as a ton of other mons not here, lots of room to experiment in this tier)
??? means I have no clue how good the mon is

Misc. Thoughts:
Electrics are stupid good, anything that actually beats them is valuable as a result
Weather is pretty bad in most matchups, Kingdra is the only sweeper that has its games (bulky Ludicolo is better than offensive)
Metagross is probably overrated but still deserves its own tier (though I'm very close to putting Deo-S in the same tier as it)

The ADV DOU Council cast some votes regarding the current state of the tier, and our opinions on each matter! As a result of these votes:
Deoxys-Speed is now Banned.
Deoxys-Defense is now Unbanned.
Sleep Clause is now Enabled, only one Pokemon can be put to sleep at a time.
Latias is now Unbanned.
Soul Dew is now Banned.
Kris please implement these changes whenever possible, thank you!

:primeape: :primeape: :primeape:
Will sample teams be updated after the changes go through? Deoxys-S is on three of the five samples and the November ladder just started so it'd be nice to have a couple more options for beginners (like me) to play around with while learning the game/format.
Will sample teams be updated after the changes go through? Deoxys-S is on three of the five samples and the November ladder just started so it'd be nice to have a couple more options for beginners (like me) to play around with while learning the game/format.
we're working on these right now, should be up soon :)

also I'll probably make a personal post tomorrow with some teams and ideas separate from an official samples post, and we're trying to get a VR put together as well with a bit more playtesting
ADV Doubles is back! I didn't play much in 2021 but with SEA reaching out to form a council and polish the banlist I've found myself having a lot of fun with the tier again. I'm here to post three teams that I've been fooling around with in the early days of Latias meta, use them as you'd like.

:rs/charizard: :rs/heracross: :rs/gengar: :rs/zapdos: :rs/metagross: :rs/latias:

In ADV OU, Superman refers to a team style that has predominantly Pokemon that are off the ground, with the main benefit being a team that is relatively unaffected by Spikes. I wanted to make a team in doubles with the same concept, which is how this team was born. I like to lead Fire-types because it's the best way to pressure lead Metagross. I picked Charizard over Moltres because of Dragon Claw and Blaze making it a more appealing offensive Pokemon in my eyes. This Heracross set is really threatening, and you can choose to commit to Endure strats by running Reversal, but I like Brick Break being able to immediately punish Tyranitar and Snorlax, crucial for a team loaded with Special Attackers. This is also why Metagross is here, as well as checking Latias, and it gets to enjoy all the great EQ Immune partners. Gengar and Zapdos round out the team's general offenses, with HP Grass Zapdos for some Swampert insurance, while Latias is the team's main fortress against Raikou and Zapdos. No investment Latias EQ is a 3HKO on Raikou, which I felt like was necessary to not get rolled by CM sets.

:rs/alakazam: :rs/tauros: :rs/raikou: :rs/starmie: :rs/gengar: :rs/charizard:

Speedsters is a team built around a single concept - hit hard and hit fast. There's no Trick Room in this metagame, which means fast Pokemon stocks are way up over your traditional Doubles tier. Every Pokemon on this team compliments another in the form of type coverage and the theme is to double down on slots to take easy KOes while your opponent only gets to attack once. If you're picking this team up I think there's room to mess around with the Speed EVs but I like this setup for now. I guess CB Gengar should get a brief explanation, the tl;dr is that there's no super hard Latias answer here, but Gengar can actually pick it up with Shadow Ball after just a little chip. Sludge Bomb is a surprisingly decent neutral option if you can dance aroud Metagross, and CB Boom is the best way to make sure Boom hits hard.

:rs/snorlax: :rs/gengar: :rs/suicune: :rs/marowak: :rs/charizard: :rs/medicham:

I wanted to build CB lax - the tier's loaded with special attackers and its boom is the strongest in the tier. Petaya Gengar is really cool, I don't think you get a ton out of Leftovers on it but you can very well pick up a KO you weren't supposed to with +1 Ice Punch/Tbolt. The idea is that an early game boom creates openings for Suicune to start setting up, and, supported by Marowak and Medicham, can snowball games. Charizard is the blanket Metagross check, this could be Moltres tbh but at this point I was getting quite copypaste happy. Wow Genar and Medicham are great answers for opposing Lax which is the biggest roadblock for Suicune.
Tier 1
:gengar: Gengar
:latias: Latias
:metagross: Metagross

Tier 2
:raikou: Raikou
:snorlax: Snorlax
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:zapdos: Zapdos

Tier 3
:heracross: Heracross
:houndoom: Houndoom
:jirachi: Jirachi
:moltres: Moltres
:starmie: Starmie
:suicune: Suicune
:tauros: Tauros
:vaporeon: Vaporeon

Tier 4
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
:alakazam: Alakazam
:charizard: Charizard
:gyarados: Gyarados
:hariyama: Hariyama
:ludicolo: Ludicolo
:marowak: Marowak
:medicham: Medicham
:regice: Regice
:salamence: Salamence
:swampert: Swampert

Tier 5
:arcanine: Arcanine
:dewgong: Dewgong
:dugtrio: Dugtrio
:kingdra: Kingdra
:politoed: Politoed

The very first OFFICIAL ADV Doubles Overused Viability Rankings has been published! All 5 council members placed each Pokemon into a tier, and the average of those 5 votes is where the Pokemon ended up. If you have any nominations for a placement on the VR, post down below with your reasons why!
Could someone with some ADV doubles knowledge explain why Deo-S was unanimously considered ban worthy? Much of what makes it broken in singles is pretty absent here, as a cleaner it does the job fine enough but in no way seems overbearing, if you want the guaranteed ohko on hp invested ttar, you are investing 180 & a positive nature into attack, which means you are then do pitiful damage neutrally if ur not icebeaming mence of tbolting gyara. That much speed, coverage, and ev optimization is enough to make it a threat no doubt, but ur literally doing 37% max to gengar with boltbeam, or still missing the OHKO 70% of the time with stab psychic at 252+ spa. Seems like a great mon but like unanimously banned?; interesting.


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Could someone with some ADV doubles knowledge explain why Deo-S was unanimously considered ban worthy? Much of what makes it broken in singles is pretty absent here, as a cleaner it does the job fine enough but in no way seems overbearing, if you want the guaranteed ohko on hp invested ttar, you are investing 180 & a positive nature into attack, which means you are then do pitiful damage neutrally if ur not icebeaming mence of tbolting gyara. That much speed, coverage, and ev optimization is enough to make it a threat no doubt, but ur literally doing 37% max to gengar with boltbeam, or still missing the OHKO 70% of the time with stab psychic at 252+ spa. Seems like a great mon but like unanimously banned?; interesting.
I won’t speak for anyone else, but I voted ban for 2 main reasons:

1) Deo warps the lead metagame completely around itself.

I wouldn’t say deoxys was required to be in the lead position, but Deo was always an S+ lead and while no single set beats everything (obviously), you could tailor Deo to beat anything it needed to AND importantly, it was generally not clear what Deo set you were playing against from the jump.

Band Deo was a great lead to beat ttar/houndoom/other deo/moltres among others but a physical set with lum could also threaten these guys while blocking twave. A mixed set could threaten basically everything for at least neutral damage with ice beam for mence, tbolt for starmie/waters, fire punch for metagross, sunny day to boost partner overheat, and more options for a 3rd move. I wouldn’t even say protect is always required on mixed. Cm bolt beam sets up on lots. All of these sets and many variants within them can lead with Metagross, Gengar, a Fire, or an electric partner without giving away the set.

Deo can run both offenses, but it can also afford to run lots of bulk with its titanic speed. Max spatk crunch from Tyranitar for example, will not reliably ohko if I decide my Deo wants to invest bulk to live it. The speed is basically a luxury stat to invest it, needing only 96 EVs (maybe 100 idr) to outspeed modest Omastar in rain. That’s hardly a requirement and many Deo opt for no speed or only a little.

2) Reliable Deoxys checks are hard to come by.

Metagross fears fire punch. Starmie fears shadow ball and is a liability into CM. Zapdos fears Ice Beam and its twave being useless since Deo is probably lum. Lax and Ttar fear Superpower. Moltres fears Tbolt and Hp rock on physical. Your own Deo fears shadow ball. I could go on.

So to wrap it up, I voted ban because Deo has the flexibility to beat anything and (especially from lead, without team preview) it is not possible to reliably figure out what the Deo set is.
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Kyle ninjad me but I didn't spend 5 minutes typing this to hit the delete button.

Deoxys-S, while lacking in the raw power posessed by Metagross or the bulk of something like Snorlax, was still too much for the metagame to handle. Speed Control options are limited in the tier which means Deo-S can invest fully in offenses + bulk, a luxury that few other fast Pokemon posess. It can virtually choose what it wants to lose to, as Attack invested Superpower sets can muscle past Houndoom and Tyranitar, while Charcoal Fire Punch sets can lead with a partner that can pick of Metagross. These sets just scrape the surface of its usefulness - supportive sets featuring moves like Rain Dance, Thunder Wave, Icy Wind and Taunt, practically guaranteed to fire off due to the tier's lack of faster answers and low amount of Fake Out users. Calm Mind sets can also run away with a game as teams typically don't have multiple answers to a BoltBeaming Deo-S. This has entirely skipped over Psycho Boost - a move that hits considerably harder than even Alakazam's Psychic

By the way while I'm here speaking as a council person, the general sentiment among the council after playing with the new Latias meta is that the Latios test won't be happening soon, if at all. Latias is showing its insane versatility and usefulness now after we started out being even skeptical of its high tier viability, and it just doesn't make sense to potentially introduce Latias v 1.1 into the tier right now when we're still at a point of a lot of innovation and meta development.
I wanted to post about a possible Blaziken addition to the VR. Initially you would want to compare to other fire types of Moltres, Charizard, or even Arcanine but none of the mentioned mons can effectively handle the mons blaziken can. With its double stabs it threatens Tyranitar, Metagross, Snorlax and Houndoom, reliably beating all forms of the mons except banded eq lax. While in a vacuum, also 1v1ing defensive gengar, and non psychic rachi.
224+ Atk Blaziken Sky Uppercut vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 523-616 (129.7 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

88 SpA Charcoal Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 367-432 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

224+ Atk Blaziken Sky Uppercut vs. 144 HP / 132 Def Snorlax: 336-396 (67.6 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

96 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Blaziken: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

8 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 116-137 (38.5 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

224+ Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 282-332 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Obviously, quite flawed with middling speed and offensives that dont quite compensate, but has notable advantages over similar mons that warrant at LEAST a spot on the list. Worthy of spot alone for complimentary pairing with broken ass Latias as it eliminates all of the 3 things that threaten it.

I thought this spread was pretty optimized:
Blaziken @ Charcoal
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 224 Atk / 88 SpA / 196 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Protect
- Brick Break/Sky Uppercut
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

Charcoal lets it ohko metagross 100% (85%) of the time while being able to invest more into attack to smack snorlax harder and nab an OHKO on raikou 56% of the time with a single round of sand damage. Sky uppercut can be used but I hate missing.

Also wanted to double this is into a post about Latias. Seems very very strong right now. Defensive, CM, Dclaw, Protect, recover takes so little to win its insane, with any decent support for ttar, metagross, and lax it can pretty much set up on anything else. IMO better than Gengar maybe not as good as Metagross? Only because of how significant nuke explosion can be.

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 240 HP / 172+ Def Latias: 140-165 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

176+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 240 HP / 172+ Def Latias: 146-172 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

96 Atk Snorlax Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 172+ Def Latias: 115-136 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 240 HP / 172+ Def Latias: 153-180 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Will add blaziken replays soon!
I think Aerodactyl should be much higher in the VR. Fast, resists Explosion, speed control with rock tomb, great offense. I'd personally put him somewhere between tier 3 and 4?? What do you all think?


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Hello, bigpostthatnobodyaskedforcole here. Recently, and very briefly, I held the top 3 spots on the ADV DOU ladder. As of posting I only hold the top 2 spots (more on that later) which is still pretty good. I wanted to do a big post before any tournaments because I think it is both cool and nice to share what's been working for me and what has not, and I don't want anyone thinking the peak of my teambuilding ability is my Salac Claydol sample.
Screen Shot 2022-11-12 at 8.38.01 PM.png
Screen Shot 2022-11-12 at 8.38.35 PM.png

2 teams that are good, then 1 team that is OK.

NoLuckNovember ### Lati Lax + Brokens (22-4)

Snorlax + Latias is my current favourite lead because of their combined ability to threaten everything in the tier. Choice Band Snorlax cleanly OHKOs max HP Metagross with Self-Destruct and Latias with Thunder Wave offers great super effective coverage and speed control. I went with pretty standard movesets for Metagross and Starmie, with HP Grass Zapdos because I am of the opinion you need a grass move for Swampert somewhere. The Gengar set is one I haven't seen anyone else using but I'm convinced it will become standard. Sleep is an OHKO, Destiny Bond is another OHKO, Ice Punch and Thunderbolt are great coverage and each have a 10% chance to OHKO. Powerful stuff.
  • Snorlax is just Max Atk, Max Def
  • Latias Survives a Meteor Mash from Choice Band Metagross, OHKOs 252 HP Gengar with Psychic, Outspeeds Jolly Metagross, and the rest is a SpD dump
  • Metagross survives a Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct, Thunderbolt from Modest Zapdos is a guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers, and the remaining 12 EVs are put into Atk
  • Gengar always 2HKOs Non-leftovers 4HP Zapdos with Ice Punch, Max speed, HP dump
  • Starmie is a spread from Orre. I could lie and just change it to the one below, but this is what I peaked with so... Starmie survives a Thunderbolt from Modest Latios, outspeeds max speed base 110s (Gengar, Tauros), and the rest is a SpA dump. Mystic Water increases the range of Metagross you can always 2HKO with Hydro Pump from "its always at least a roll" to "up to 164 HP Metagross is always 2HKOd". Mystic Water also guarantees the OHKO on offensive Moltres and a few other similarly not-really-important-but-good-to-have damage rolls
  • Zapdos outspeeds Jolly Tyranitar in case someone is wild enough to bring that, and is max HP with the rest in SpD. Lots of people use rain and fat SpD zap beats offensive Zaps
Stop the Music ### StarMeta + Brokens (25-3)

Yeah it's the same 6. I wanted to see how viable this was as a team building strategy and it worked out pretty well. Despite a better W/L I think I prefer the first team for ease of play. StarMeta has a lot of switching out or protecting turn 1 compared to the first team, and that probably worked out in my favour where it was harder for my opponents to predict what was coming in without team preview. In the lead position we go with a more offensive Metagross than the first team. I also made a Starmie spread for the correct tier and decided to go with a fatter while still speedy Gengar, and forego offensive investment.
  • Metagross always survives an Earthquake from Adamant Choice Band Metagross/Salamence (worth knowing this is stronger than Jolly CB Dugtrio EQ) and survives 2 Thunderbolts from Modest Zapdos. Rest in Atk
  • Starmie survives -0 Explosion from Gengar (and Timid Thunderbolt by extension), outspeeds 110s and remaining EVs in SpA
  • Same lax
  • Same Latias offense and Phys Def benchmarks, with a bit more speed to get past Modest Kingdra outside of rain and Adamant Heracross
  • Gengar survives a Meteor Mash from Adamant Metagross (non CB) with Max speed
  • Zapdos 2HKOs the bulky 244 HP 72 SpD sample Gengar (HP Grass IVs taken into account), outspeeds Jolly Tyranitar, with Max HP and SpD dump
I Timer Out ### SUNSHINE (27-6)

I deleted my post about Deoxys-Defense being broken because I didn't want to double post, but make no mistake, it is broken. It's obviously not unbeatable, and in fact in a game between this team and the other 2 teams I posted, I would always prefer the first two. DeoD makes the game pokemon solitaire, it simply follows the flowchart plays to the games conclusion. It is surprisingly good at doing this. The real threats to this team are Metagross getting a poorly timed attack boost, the opponent realizing they need to preserve Gengar, and crits. That's pretty much it. Due to the way Struggle works you don’t even always need to win the PP war as long as your opponent isn’t holding Leftovers. This team is just Deoxys and Safeguard slapped on with some good Pokemon. You could run a bulky HP Fire Starmie to threaten Gengar and Metagross. You could run Pursuit to trap Gengar. You could put a lot more effort into supporting Deo. I wanted to find out if Deo is broken and I learned that it is.
The other thing I learned while using this team is how good Tauros is. Bull good.
  • Deoxys outspeeds Adamant Metagross
  • Latias outspeeds base 100s to Safeguard Zapdos Thunder Waves (not that T wave is a big deal, I have swept with a paralyzed Deo), survives CB Metagross Meteor Mash, and SpA
  • We've seen everything else here before, and Tauros is 252/252
So those are the teams! I hope you enjoy them or get some cool ideas

Another Tier list that nobody asked for
Screen Shot 2022-11-12 at 11.14.21 PM.png

I've ordered these within their tiers unless stated otherwise. I would consider B- and above to be "viable" and maybe B+ and above the Pokemon to be "Good". If you're completely new I think B+ would be a good cutoff until you get a feel for the meta.

I don't think there's anything too controversial here. I might be a little higher on Starmie, Deoxys, and Gyarados than most and a little low on Charizard. Probably, most would rate Latias alongside Gengar and Metagross, but I think it is slightly but firmly worse. Certainly the ladder would contend that Clefable is at least B-. I'm pointing these out to give you the benefit of a second opinion without you having to go to the effort of actually going out and finding it. I don't think I'm wrong, at least at the moment, but no one ever does.

If you have any opinions on those ?R guys, or think I'm an idiot for ranking Slaking above Omastar or Marowak above Moltres, please let me know!
I don't really want to type out my explanation for each mon, but only because I feel that would be wasted effort. If you ask for clarification then I won't consider it a wasted effort anymore!

edit: I was wrong about :Steelix: it seems, very cool Pokémon!
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Been having a degree of success with Lanturn as a supporting rain dancer.


Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 224 HP / 156 Def / 128 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Protect
- Rain Dance
- Thunder

EVs are a bit weird, apologies-the result of messing around in the damage calculator largely. Essentially to prevent it from being ohk'd by Metagross' Earthquake, along with a Bold nature.

Thunder can add a solid amount of supporting damage and Thunder Wave allows for all-important speed control.

Alongside Kingdra:


Kingdra @ Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Disable
- Protect can take a chunk out of the enemy team. With Lanturn's support, you can leave them on the back foot even when Kingdra bites the dust. Unsurprisingly the combo is walled by Snorlax (as is Lanturn) so caution is needed.


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DPL Champion
Team dump from ADV money tour, where I got second place.



dj breloominati:


dj breloominati part 2:

I think ADV is fun and pretty competitive, but it would benefit from removing Deoxys-D, which is really hard to check and usually requires a lot of paralysis to go down. I'd also like to thank SuperEpicAmpharos for giving us an incentive to explore the tier and take the tour seriously :)
With CALM nature in Latias you can achieve better evs.

EVs: 228 HP / 224 SpA / 28 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature

312 satk, 333 sdef.
With your evs is :

310 stak, 333 sdef

Good teams, thanks to share¡¡
Hello everyone, with the conclusion of the ADV DOU money tour and the near conclusion of ALTPL, the ADV Council has opted to run a survey on the current state of the tier. The subjects the council chose for voting are: Latias, Explosion (this does include Self-destruct), Deoxys-Defense, and screens. We have also included a question on whether or not the playerbase is interested in testing Latios into the tier.

Anyone is welcome to vote!

Link to survey here
Survey results! Thanks to everyone who participated!


Deoxys-Defense is the biggest problem plaguing the tier as of late, being one of the strongest late game win conditions in any doubles tier. While freeing it was fun for a while, it has clearly grown too problematic. The survey results show 90% approval for action, and after council deliberation, we have decided to BAN Deoxys-Defense from ADV DOU effective immediately. While the call for a suspect was sizeable, council votes were unanimous for a ban, and it is considerably harder to properly suspect a Pokemon in a tier like this. This isn't to say that we are opposed to any suspects, but with the majority still calling for a ban, we felt it the best thing to do.


The most divisive question from the survey - the Explosion 'problem' seems to be a bit overblown, as only 30% of the respondents supported banning/suspecting. It'll be something to always keep an eye on, but for now, Explosion will remain legal in the tier.


Unsurprisingly, Latias is considered by most to be fine in the tier since its unbanning, so it will be left alone.


Screens were brought up by SuperEpicAmpharos in council chat, but as the votes show there really isn't any support to take action on them at this time.


Latios did not receive a majority opinion to be tested/freed, and so for now it will remain banned. Council discussed potentially suspecting it at a later date, but for now we'd like to see how the tier develops post Deoxys-D.

As for the "anything else" question, the response that came up multiple times was Thunder Wave, and while it wasn't too significant, it is something else we'll think about as the tier's development progresses.

tagging Kris DaWoblefet to implement the Deoxys-D ban when possible, thank you!
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We're holding a vote on Latias! You can find out more information in this thread. If you don't have a badge or policy review access, you can also use this thread to voice your thoughts.

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