OU ADV OU Bans (ruleset change) discussion

vapicuno · Jan 27, 2025

With regard to https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/changes-to-adv-ou-forum-structure.3758986/

In an effort to prioritize discussion in the main threads about the evolving ADV OU metagame within the current ruleset over discussions on ruleset changes (most commonly bans), this is a thread created to discuss solely the latter. All posts concerning bans should not be written anywhere in the forum except in this thread. Please maintain a respectful tone.

Below is a list of relevant threads outlining the history of baton pass-related suspect tests in ADV. Please skim through them before rehashing old arguments; given the long history of this discussion, there is a good chance that something you are about to mention has been extensively discussed before.

2019

Thread 'ADV OU: Baton Pass Test'

Jul 24, 2019

ADV Baton Pass Test

It's time to test Baton Pass in ADV. Voting requirements can be obtained via tournament experience or ladder rankings. Tournament experience will resemble requirements from other recent tests by the Old Gen Council. In addition, we will offer a laddering opportunity because ADV has a very active and competitive ladder.

For this Baton Pass test, the ADV council has identified two separate issues. On one hand, there is full baton pass, which generally consists of five setup Pokemon and one end game receiver. On the other, there is Drum Pass, which features Smeargle...

Gen 3 Thread 'Discussion Thread: ADV Baton Pass Vote'

Jul 24, 2019

Let's use this thread to discuss the upcoming ADV Baton pass vote.
PR Thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-baton-pass-test.3652847/

Where does each one of you stand on the matter?

2021

Thread 'ADV Baton Pass (again)'

Nov 28, 2021

We will be testing Baton Pass (again) in ADV OU. This post will provide context on why, explain the voting structure and outline the qualifications to vote. This thread can also be used to discuss the suspect and advocate for whatever outcomes. Those unable to post in this thread can use the ROA companion thread.

Why test Baton Pass?
Despite limiting Baton Pass to 3 users and banning Mr. Mime in previous tests, Baton Pass has proven it's still an issue in ADV. It has been used successfully in several major tours (ADV Cup, Classic Playoffs, Callous Invitational) over the past...

Gen 3 Thread 'ADV Baton Pass Suspect (again)'

Nov 28, 2021

This is the companion thread to the ADV Baton Pass suspect test in Policy Review. You can use this thread for discussion if you don't have PR access. Identification for ladder qualifiers can also be posted here.

2023

Rejected Thread 'ADV Baton Pass v184'

Dec 12, 2023

As the title indicates, we've had this topic come up and various decisions made a truly ludicrous amount of times. The most recent BP related shenanigans have mainly involved Ninjask passing Speed Boosts, paired with techs like Swagger, Sand Attack, or Toxic to circumvent the usual counterplay.

McMeghan said:
The ADV council has decided to ban Soundproof from ADV OU. Our most recent tiering actions regarding Baton Pass freed the previously banned Mr.Mime, and its return made StatPassing chains viable and problematic...

Gen 3 Thread 'ADV Baton Pass v184'

Dec 12, 2023

This is just a companion thread to https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-baton-pass-v184.3732533/

Please post in the linked thread if you have Policy Review access, but if you don’t you could either follow the steps in that forum to request access to post, or just post here.

H!kari · Jan 29, 2025

I would like to pre-empt the discussion of a Ninjask ban that will inevitably fill this thread by discussing an aspect of it that if it were to be banned would have a non-existent impact on the metagame at large while eliminating Ninjask's ability to abuse rng to create free turns. That being sand attack, which I believe has been the major contributing factor to the growing perception that Ninjask is "unfair" or banworthy in a way that fellow speedpass user Zapdos isn't.

Ninjask abuses sand attack in a similar manner to how other mons have abused swagger in the past. That is to force the opposing player into an uncomfortable choice between switching and giving the sand attack user a free turn to set up or staying in and rolling the dice on potentially giving it a free turn. While sand attack only comes with a 25% chance for the opposing pokemon to miss its attack, unlike swagger's 50% it hits itself in confusion; it does not give the opposing pokemon +2 attack and lasts indefinitely meaning that it cannot backfire on the user and will inevitably force the target to switch as the accuracy drops stack. Given the fact that Ninjask does not need to use a move to boost its speed, the free turn/s that sand attack can create through a miss or the threat of a miss is often all Ninjask needs to set up a substitute and subsequently safely baton pass to a sweeper that can run away with the game.

I don't think that it is a stretch to say that the randomness that sand attack introduces lowers the impact of skill on the outcome of a game to a degree that it is uncompetitive. I will gladly stand to be corrected if someone can provide an argument for why sand attack is any different from swagger or why keeping it around makes the metagame more competitive. But as it stands I believe that banning it would make a Ninjask ban unnecessary and eliminate an option that only serves to allow players to abuse rng.