Curious about what we're currently doing about bots? Check out the latest updates from staff in this thread.
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Image credit: MAHOU for the Pokemon TCG - Celestial Storm
ADV SU Discussion Thread
Welcome to ADV Sub-Zero Used (SU), the lowest unofficial tier on Smogon and the tier below ZU. ADV SU has seen early speculation through the SU Discord since 2021, and the internal community interest and history have both grown a lot since then. We've run several Discord tours, we have scheduled roomtours, and there's roles and pings for matchmaking. We hope that this thread can reach even more players interested in lower tiers, as we'll be able to share resources and discuss the tier more effortfully and visibly!
Pokemon tiered as ZU are ones ranked B or above on the most recent ADV ZU viability ranking update. This includes:
Abra, Aipom, Anorith, Ariados, Beedrill, Castform, Corsola, Cubone, Delcatty, Doduo, Dustox, Elekid, Flaaffy, Gloom, Koffing, Lileep, Magnemite, Meditite, Noctowl, Nosepass, Onix, Ponyta, Porygon, Quilava, Seaking, Snorunt, Tropius, Volbeat, Voltorb, Wailmer, Wartortle
In addition to Pokemon tiered as ZU and above, SU has its own banlist that includes the following Pokemon/elements:
Sleep moves (Sleep Powder, Hypnosis, Spore, etc.)
No Pokemon are currently tiered as SUBL
Like ZU, SU has a "Dry-pass" clause, meaning that Pokemon cannot run a moveset with Baton Pass and setup moves or other elements
Thanks to the efforts of Missangelic and the council members, we've finally managed to get a thread. With that in mind, I figured I should celebrate by sharing to everyone some fascinating sets that I've built in recent memory, exploring the purposes of some Pokemon and why I think these sets are underrated.
Weepinbell's strong Attack and Special Attack makes it an effective setup sweeper on offensive teams. Its STAB-boosted Sludge Bomb can be difficult for most Pokemon to handle after a +2 Attack boost. Weepinbell invests 4 EVs in HP and 68 EVs in Special Defense to withstand an Ice Beam from offensive Staryu and Lombre. After consuming a Salac Berry, it can outspeed everything up to a maximum speed of 90. Giga Drain is a useful tool for handling Rock-types such as Nosepass and Onix. Weepinbell is most effective on teams that use paralysis, which can give Weepinbell free opportunities to set up. In conclusion, Weepinbell solidifies as a powerful Salac Berry sweeper capable of exploiting passive attackers and Water-types.
Three Attacks + Protect Nidorino
Nidorino (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Return
- Protect
Although Nidorino finds it difficult to set itself apart from this role given Grimer's superior bulk and access to Explosion, the additional speed Nidorino possesses allows it to outspeed the likes of Lombre and Weepinbell. Hidden Power Ground allows it to eliminate bulky attackers like Aron and Grimer. Protect is beneficial to Nidorino so it can recover HP with Leftovers as well as scout moves from a plethora of Pokemon ranging from Illumise, Spinda, and Staryu. Nidorino is well-suited to offensive teams that demand a solid wallbreaker that can stomach hits and has strong moveset flexibility.
Choice Band Lead Spinda
Spinda @ Choice Band
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 32 HP / 240 Atk / 60 SpD / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Brick Break
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass
Spinda is one of the most diverse Pokemon in ADV SU, with a wide range of sets that make it difficult to answer. By giving Spinda a Choice Band, you can turn it into a powerful wallbreaker with access to pivoting to preserve momentum. Spinda invests 32 EVs in HP and 60 EVs in Special Defense so it can live a Water Spout from Wailmer while it OHKOes it with Return. Brick Break targets Rock- and Steel-types like Aron, Nosepass, and Onix. Shadow Ball is an effective move against the uncommon Shuppet. Baton Pass allows Spinda to pivot out of bad matchups to preserve momentum for the rest of the team. Choice Band Spinda is helpful for applying pressure to slower Pokemon while it can stomach weak attacks. Pokemon like Growlithe and Smoochum love Spinda's pivoting ability, which allows them to switch in safely and penetrate walls.
Despite being a slightly less common Pokemon, Nuzleaf stands out as a Swords Dance attacker thanks to the combination of priority and Explosion. Double-Edge helps Nuzleaf deal massive damage to the opponent at the cost of recoil. Quick Attack allows it to pick off weaker threats and set up sweepers. Hidden Power Ground is a good alternative to Double-Edge which targets Aron and Shuppet. Explosion is a strong wall-breaking tool, allowing Nuzleaf to trade with any Pokemon not named Aron or Shuppet with a +2 Attack boost. Silk Scarf allows Nuzleaf to secure the OHKO on Lombre at +2 with Double-Edge and a favorable roll against Smoochum with Quick Attack. Nuzleaf benefits from Spikes support provided by Snorunt, enabling it to achieve an OHKO against defensive walls like Spinda and Sunflora after one layer of Spikes. Nuzleaf also appreciates paralysis support, giving it more freedom to set up with Swords Dance and initiate its wallbreaking capabilities during the mid-game.
I am glad we have began to make serious progress with this tier after two and a half years of development, and I would love to see other contributing to the tier that was my first home. I thank everyone for reading this post, and hope to see you again soon!
These two have stood out from the crowd in my personal opinion. They are both offensively very potent are versatile with their sets. Spinda has sets such as Choice Band, Bulky Attacker, Baton Pass pivot, and more. This makes it pretty splashable and basically mandatory to get the best use out of Pokemon who struggle to get in such as Delibird, Mankey, and Smoochum.
Illumise is a fast strong special attacker with great utility moves such as Encore, Thunder Wave, Wish, and Baton Pass. Access to reliable recovery also allows it to stay healthy. It's coverage with Thunderbolt and Ice Punch is also basically perfect for the tier and allows it to clean quite well.
Other Notable Pokemon
A glue Pokemon for the tier. I think its the most splashable normal-resist and it's speed outpacing the Fire-types and good offensive typing helps offset its poor offenses, alongside Explosion to trade excellently.
A strong and fast Water-type powerhouse. It's quite frail but its speed and good enough bulk allows it to check Pokemon such as Onix with access to recovery as well.
Another strong and bulky Water-type. It's a trading powerhouse with Self-Destruct plus it's bulk, and very splashable as well.
Pidgeotto feels like the best Choice Banded Pokemon available. Great bulk, and fair defensive typing, and offensively very strong with Quick Attack to stave off Salac Berry Sweepers
Bayleef has the perfect coverage and boosting move to use a Flail set effectively. No Rock-type is able to resist Flail + Hidden Power Grass except Aron, who does not appreciate an Overgrow boosted Hidden Power Grass. It generally doesn't have many issues getting down to low hp with Substitute with decent speed and bulk allowing it survive a lot of Pokemon within the tier and get a Substitute off.
Boasting a decent speed tier of 70, Treecko can be a fine Endeavor lead akin to it's evolution in ADV PU. When it gets low, it also activates Overgrow once again powering up it's Giga Drain. While Giga Drain can carry it outside of Overgrow, you can just Substitute to get your HP back down into Overgrow.
A retro set from the early days of ADV ZU, Beautifly can use Substitute Salac Berry sets here too. It has quite good coverage for tier; and 70 base attack is not too bad to get your sweep off with also a decent enough Speed stat. It's not super amazing but quite fun to use.
Butterfree is pretty cool to use here. It has some pretty nice offensive stats but unfortunately like many special attackers in ADV, no STAB. It still can get by though with Stun Spore being a pretty fun option to use. It's got tough competition in Illumise, but it is stronger, has Psychic so isn't as scared of Pokemon like Grimer, and has a ground immunity at least so that's cool.
This post is a spotlight on one of my favorite Pokemon in ADV SU, Illumise.
||
One of Illumise's most brilliant features is its base 85 Speed stat, as speed tiers are so much lower in SU than any other ADV lower tier that 85 is considered especially fast. Only Luvdisc, Meowth, and Poliwag naturally outspeed Illumise, and of these, only Meowth can OHKO an uninvested Illumise, using Choice Band Double-Edge, which only has a 50% chance. Illumise actually shares its base 85 Speed with Staryu, Taillow, Ledian, and Wingull, but only the first two are especially relevant in ADV SU, and neither of Staryu or Taillow avoid being OHKOed by offensive Illumise's Thunderbolt. Beyond its natural Speed, Illumise has Thunder Wave to seal its domination of speed control in the tier, and the biggest target of this Thunder Wave is often opposing Illumise, which speaks to its hegemony. If you need it against Endure + Salac users, then Illumise can even run Quick Attack, eclipsing most other speed control in ADV SU. Getting the jump on most Pokemon in the tier is a good fundamental trait, and Illumise effectively utilizes it in practice, as most teams require a revenge killer that can make light work of frail, offensive Pokemon like Delibird and Onix. The gulf between 65 and 85 Speed is partly why Electrike struggles while Illumise soars, but Illumise's success comes down to more than just stats.
The second ingredient to Illumise's potency in the tier is its glowing movepool. Thunderbolt and Ice Punch provide perfect neutral coverage against the whole tier, but they have their own synergies with Illumise's two status-inflicting moves, Toxic and Thunder Wave. Thunderbolt nails Staryu, the only viable Natural Cure user in the tier, while Ice Punch can OHKO or 2HKO Onix looking to switch in to absorb Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave is helpful for speed control, especially in mirror matchups, while Toxic puts special walls like Spinda and Clefairy on a timer while they're in. Few Pokemon in the tier can stand up to both of Illumise's attacks and status, especially with most Ground-types being weak to Ice Punch. Add Baton Pass into this mix and Illumise becomes the premier offensive pivot of the tier, not that it needs to run the move, as it has a colorful array of other options between Moonlight, Encore, and Growth.
You might not think it from looking at the red-orange sunset of Illlumise's stats on the Smogdex, but Illumise is bulky by the standards of ADV SU. Compare Illumise to Staryu, which matches Illumise's Speed, access to Thunder Wave and a recovery move, and great special power on its diverse coverage moves: Staryu has 30/55/55 defensive stats, while Illumise has 65/55/75. Illumise's bulk might not be on the level of some defensive Pokemon, such as Sunflora or Dustox, but it's nothing to sneeze at for a fast, specially offensive Pokemon. This above-average bulk, even when uninvested, helps Illumise tank strong neutral attacks, and it shines when running more defensive or utility Illumise sets.
Illumise has some other bright qualities, and although these weren't as defining to its place in ADV SU as its Speed and movepool, I'll still touch on them. The pure Bug typing isn't the flashiest defensively, but it does give Illumise opportunities to switch in on moves like Earthquake, Razor Leaf, Giga Drain, and Focus Punch, and the combination of Encore and Illumise's Speed can even let Illumise force out Pokemon it wouldn't otherwise beat 1v1. Staryu and Taillow do have their own switch-in windows, but they're much smaller than Illumise's due to their frailty opening them up to being punished on a wrong prediction.
While Illumise is nowhere near a traditional Bug-type, it does push a lot of the other Bug-types in ADV SU out of the spotlight. Ledian is pigeonholed to being a fringe support Pokemon with dual screens, limited in comparison to Illumise because of the restriction of Baton Pass to Dry Pass, while Illumise carries Thunder Wave, Wish, Encore, and Moonlight. With sleep-inducing moves banned, Butterfree is forced to differentiate itself from Illumise just with Psychic, Whirlwind, and its typing, but Dustox is far better as a defensive Whirlwind user, Butterfree's typing exacerbates its Rock weakness while adding Electric and Ice weaknesses, and its base 70 Speed only lets it speed tie Onix, failing to outspeed Delibird. Lacking Speed is also one of Beautifly's problems, and Illumise itself has easier setup opportunities than the Substitute + Berry-using butterfly because of its access to Growth and Encore. Intimidate and strong special coverage moves like Hydro Pump differentiate Masquerain from Illumise, but it shares a lot of the same problems I've outlined for Ledian, Butterfree, and Beautifly.
Lead Wailmer Two Batons:
Lead Staryu Spikes:
Lead Staryu Paraspam:
ADV SU is still a newer and speculative tier as PU and ZU continue to develop, but Illumise has managed to make places for itself in both 2023 and 2026 ADV SU. Illumise was one of the original, defining pieces of the old pre-drops metagame, and after several shifts that saw the tier gain and lose both Elekid and Voltorb, Illumise has risen back to the top, becoming the tier's de facto "fast Electric" (RIP Electrike). However, with ADV SU only having made the jump to forum recently (and the small inclusion in ADV OM Bonanza), not many might be enlightened to why Illumise is good. It can be a bit confusing to roll up to a tier full of other daytime BugTV flops like Beautifly, Butterfree, and Ledian, so I'm happy to shine some light on Illumise's place in ADV SU.
Still no ADV ZU VR update? No problem—that just gives me more time to spout some praise for a top Pokemon in another spotlight. This one's on Wailmer!
Don't let its friendly appearance fool you, as Wailmer is a killer whale, one of the strongest wallbreakers and most reliable trading Pokemon in the tier. STAB Hydro Pump and Water Spout off of a great Special Attack combined with Self-Destruct effectively have no hard answer in the tier, and Wailmer's ability to draw in special walls like Dustox and Lombre only to blow holes in them makes it an especially good enabler for late-game cleaners like Illumise, Growlithe, and Smoochum. In fact, Wailmer is so good in this role that it's not uncommon to see it paired up with other Water-types like Staryu and Croconaw that most appreciate it baiting out and breaking their shared checks of defensive Grass-types like Sunflora, Bayleef, and Parasect. Wailmer is so effective at putting on pressure in the early-game and making trades that it slots nicely into the lead metagame of ADV SU. Wailmer has historically been one of the strongest leads in ADV SU when it's been in the tier, and to this day, users like Hachimaki have demonstrated how consistent lead Wailmer can be in the ongoing ADV OM Bonanza.
Lead Wailmer Naval Mine
Petaya Staryu variant:
Salac Croconaw variant:
These two builds are variants of a boom-spam team that opens up the field for a specially offensive Water-type to sweep after Wailmer draws out their checks early on. Illumise, Delibird, and Grimer can all switch into bulky Grass-types for Wailmer. Grimer, Wailmer, and Onix make the trio of boom users on the team, with Onix being a helpful extra backbone against physically offensive Normal- and Poison-types.
Wailmer offers more than just strong Water-type moves and Self-Destruct, however. It can run both Ice Beam and Hidden Power Electric for virtually perfect neutral coverage against the entire tier list, which is a leviathan asset when Water Spout already OHKOes or 2HKOes most Pokemon that don't at least resist Water. Beyond damaging moves, Roar is an option for both bulky and lead sets: the former uses it to phaze setup users like Croconaw and often to rack up Spikes damage, while the latter can use it to play around Endure + Salac Spikes leads, namely Snorunt and Cacnea. Self-Destruct isn't strictly mandatory on Wailmer either; it can effectively run Substitute on its offensive sets to scout switches and uses of Protect. Additionally, Wailmer only requires 12 HP EVs to reach 404 HP, just enough for its Substitute to survive Seismic Toss from Spinda, Clefairy, and Illumise —all Toxic-vulnerable walls that can otherwise give Wailmer a hard time or force it to use Self-Destruct.
Mercury Poisoning
Lead Snorunt variant:
Lead Cyndaquil variant:
These two team variants feature Wailmer in a more defensive role where it acts as a valuable answer to Fire-types like Growlithe and Cyndaquil, which check its Spikes-setting partners, Snorunt and Cacnea. Snorunt is typically best as a lead, while Cacnea excels more at coming in later, so they're paired with effective Fire-types to round out their early-game matchups. Dustox and Wailmer form a very difficult core for any special attackers besides Smoochum and Spoink to break through, while Taillow is there to pick off troublesome sweepers with its excellent speed control. Nosepass acts as the essential Normal-resistant Pokemon of the team, appreciating Wailmer taking over the role of checking Fire-types so that it can invest more heavily into physical bulk.
Is Wailmer your white whale, even though it's blue? Well then welcome aboard to some options for checking it!
/ /
Lead Wailmer can seem indomitable, especially lately, with the scarcity of obvious checks to it in the tier, but there are ways to threaten to KO it outright. A Modest-natured lead Illumise holding Magnet can OHKO an uninvested Wailmer 68.8% of the time with Thunderbolt, although some downsides to dropping Timid means underspeeding Delibird and losing the speed tie with other base 85 Speed Pokemon. Staryu is another option, one that at least resists Wailmer's Water-type moves and Ice Beam as it threatens it back with Thunderbolt, but its frailty leaves it as more of a revenge killer. Choice Band attackers like Delibird, Pidgeotto, and Taillow can all outspeed Wailmer and threaten to OHKO it with Double-Edge, with the latter two becoming much more consistent if lead Wailmer runs a Defense-lowering nature. However, not all Choice Band attackers can punch through: Nidorino fails to OHKO unless Wailmer is running a Defense-lowering nature; Spinda and Farfetch'd (which almost never runs CB anyway) only Speed-tie Wailmer; Meowth requires a sub-optimal Adamant nature alongside Choice Band just for a chance at the OHKO; and even Choice Band Onix has to use Explosion. Although absent for a long time, Electrike could potentially regain viability as a lead that outspeeds and OHKOes Wailmer while preserving your Illumise—just as it did back in 2023. It even gains access to Quick Attack like Illumise to finish off Endure + Salac variants of Wailmer, something that Staryu lacks.
/
Answering Wailmer defensively isn't easy either, as I've discussed that its triple threat of strong STAB moves, broad special coverage, and Self-Destruct makes it a monster to answer. Bulky Grass-types are generally the way to go, with Lombre is serving as the gold standard for answering purely offensive Wailmer sets that don't want to trade immediately, taking neutral damage from both Ice Beam and Hidden Power. Other Grass-types like Sunflora and Bayleef can also take on Wailmer, though frailer ones like Weepinbell and Cacnea often need to play carefully around Ice Beam and Self-Destruct, and Toxic will put all viable Grass-types besides Weepinbelll on a timer. Dustox is the only Pokemon in the tier that doesn't resist Water and still has a good chance (82.4%) to not get 2HKOed by Mystic Water-boosted Water Spout from Modest-natured Wailmer, but if you take into account that most Wailmer won't go this far to empower Water Spout compared to trying to navigate around the crowded base 60 Speed tier, other special walls can work. Specially defensive variants of Illumise and Clefairy aren't 2HKOed by Water Spout after Leftovers recovery, but stay wary that Spikes will change that. If Water Spout has been neutralized and Spikes aren't in the picture, then specially defensive Spinda can also capably check Wailmer, and Protect can make Wailmer think twice about using Self-Destruct too hastily. In fact, a lot of the way you'll see Wailmer checked is by using Protect in its face to deny Self-Destruct.
Although Wailmer and Illumise are alike in being strong in ADV SU in both 2023 and 2026, Wailmer temporarily migrated from SU to ZU before eventually returning home. Now that it's back, it's become a massive beneficiary of changes like the ban on sleep moves alongside both Elekid and Voltorb leaving the tier. As 2026 comes to a close and new tier shifts loom, we will have to see if the tides shift for Wailmer, but its fundamentally strong qualities are sure to make it one of the biggest and best Pokemon in ADV SU when it's present in the tier.
After yelling at my protege enough that he actually updated the ADV ZU VR, we now have some tierlist changes!
Rises
Drops
Moves to ZU: Dustox, Nosepass, Onix, Snorunt, Wailmer Moves to SU: Chinchou, Drowzee, Rhyhorn, Tentacool
This update is a big shakeup for SU, losing us two of our best Normal-resistant Pokemon, a Spikes setter, the tier's sturdiest special wall, and Wailmer. However, several of these drops are certain to change the tier around between Chinchou making Boltbeam coverage no longer perfect and Drowzee being our new bulkiest special sponge, so stay tuned for more developments and updates on ADV SU!
New drops first impressions and an announcement at the end of this post
Chinchou changes the way that Pokemon will have to run coverage in this tier. Specially offensive Illumise will need to start running Giga Drain if it wants to hit Chinchou for super effective damage, while Staryu can't hit Chinchou for anything better than resisted damage with its typical attacks of STAB, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt (the last of which it needs for Tentacool). Staryu is especially hard-pressed to give up its fourth slot of Thunder Wave, Recover, or Rapid Spin just to hit Chinchou. However, now that Dustox is gone, Toxic becomes a much better option for putting Chinchou and special walls like newcomer Drowzee and veterans Spinda and Clefairy on a timer. As for Chinchou itself, I can see it playing a role similar to Staryu as an offensive Water-type with good coverage, one that makes up for its Speed deficit with an amazing ability in Volt Absorb. Don't get too eager to switch into Thunder Wave, as Chinchou will still be paralyzed by it in Generation 3, but having a reliable switch-in to Staryu and new check to specially offensive Croconaw is very welcome. Chinchou won't even have to stomach facing off against Wailmer, both for a spot on teams and trying to switch around Self-Destruct, and it may take over its role as a lead for those reasons.
Somewhat copied from its same sets in ZU and PU, but what else is there for Chinchou? Ice Beam provides coverage against the Grass-types that Chinchou didn't already hit for neutral damage and the odd Bagon and Dratini. Chinchou's last slot should probably go to Toxic, which, as mentioned above, puts the tier's special walls on a timer, something that is especially potent when the selection of clerics is limited to Mareep (which hates Chinchou), Snubbull (slow and specially frail), and Parasect, and all of them lack recovery besides Rest. Thunder Wave is an alternative option that can let Chinchou slow down something like Growth + Giga Drain Illumise and prevent a sweep, but it's probably less useful as a status compared to Toxic. If you want a more immediate hit for the mirror, then I'd recommend Hidden Power Grass, although you'll need to sacrifice Chinchou's utility for this. There might be room for some cuteness with Substitute or Protect here, but Chinchou needing to round out its coverage makes these options probably less than ideal. I've slashed a Timid nature first here because getting the jump on all of Cyndaquil, Growlithe, Nidorino, Spoink, Croconaw, Smoochum, and Farfetch'd seems way more valuable than a bit of extra power
No shade to Clefairy or Spinda, but Drowzee is a real unit of a special wall and Wish user. Viable Dark-types are almost absent from SU with Carvanha and Nuzleaf, and Aron is the sole Steel-type of the tier. While this does force Drowzee to be considerate that Psychic + Toxic isn't exactly perfect coverage, there's not a lot of special attackers that can break through Drowzee outright, especially with the departure of Wailmer. However, I'm sure this tapir is going to be the target of Toxic from plenty of special attackers now that Dustox is gone, making Heal Bell Snubbull a worthy partner for Drowzee that's eager to receive its Wish. Otherwise, status will stick on Drowzee, especially since it lacks the ability to use Rest because of Insomnia. There's a couple of fun options in Drowzee's kit between Thief, Taunt, Counter, and screens, but I'll be sticking to what I think has the most potential.
The new great wall. Drowzee's massive bulk and recovery with Wish will make it an excellent answer to special attackers like Staryu, Sunny Day Sunflora, Cyndaquil, and Illumise. Psychic is probably going to be Drowzee's best attacking move for its synergy with Toxic and decent damage, but such a set is vulnerable to SubCM variants of Spoink and Smoochum. As such, Seismic Toss is an alternative attacking move, and it takes a much bigger chunk out of Aron looking to switch in and pressure Drowzee. If Brick Break somehow caught your eye in Drowzee's moveset, know that it actually deals about the same damage as Seismic Toss to Aron. Thunder Wave seems like a poorer alternative to Toxic for what this set does, as it makes Drowzee especially passive, but it could have some utility on para-spam teams as support for Delibird or Rhyhorn.
SubCM (Drowzee) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Substitute
- Wish
Another set suspiciously similar to the one in ZU. Crazy, right? Well, we can't let Spoink and Smoochum have all the fun with Substitute + Calm Mind, especially since they can be worn down through repeated attacks, while Drowzee has Wish to keep itself nice and healthy against teams lacking strong enough physical attackers to push through it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if this set really has strong legs, as it doesn't have Dustox around to bully, but as long as people don't run a bunch of Toxic-spam, tons of fast physical attackers, or Encore Illumise, it might have a shot. This set might face a catch-22 between wanting to invest Speed EVs to move before Rhyhorn and other slow physical attackers, but lowering Drowzee's bulk will mean its Substitute can be more easily broken by Wish Spinda's Body Slam (and Return will always break it). I've carried over the Lum Berry from Drowzee's sample set so that it can at least shake off status once before it gets set up against faster special attackers that run Toxic.
It looks like the special wall set, but don't sleep on those EVs: this Drowzee is an offensive one. Psychic can 2HKO Curse Grimer and OHKO uninvested Grimer and Nidorino trying to switch in and break the defensive variant of Drowzee. Fire Punch off of an offensively-invested EV spread deals more damage to Smoochum and Aron variants that invest in HP, but Seismic Toss is still a fine option against them that doesn't leave Drowzee as vulnerable to SubCM Spoink. As this set trends more offensive, Thunder Wave might be more viable than Toxic, but putting other specially bulky Pokemon on a timer is probably more valuable. If you can find a way to fit it, Hidden Power Water could be useful to 2HKO Aron.
Rhyhorn's return is welcome at a time where we've lost two of the arguably best Normal-resistant Pokemon of the tier, Onix and Nosepass, and it has far more power than either of them thanks to its beefier Attack stat. Unfortunately, Rhyhorn combines some of their flaws, combining Onix's 4x weaknesses to Water and Grass with Nosepass's bad Speed to render itself vulnerable to Fire-types, and the Ice weakness from its Ground typing means Delibird can OHKO variants that don't invest heavily in special bulk. However, Rhyhorn is still a massive tank, and its ability to actually hit back hard without blowing itself up is very valuable.
Offensive (Rhyhorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Megahorn
- Substitute / Protect
Quakeslide's great coverage means Rhyhorn is going to be hitting almost everything in the tier for at least neutral damage with its STAB moves, and Rhyhorn has Megahorn to nail Grass-types like Bayleef as well as the uncommon Baltoy. Substitute lets Rhyhorn give itself a bit of breathing room after switching in on resisted moves from Choice Band attackers like Taillow and Nidorino, although it's not as necessary in SU because Koffing is not present, so you might get some extra mileage out of Protect for extra Leftovers recovery.
Tank (Rhyhorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 112 HP / 20 Atk / 252 SpD / 124 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Megahorn / Toxic
- Protect
This Rhyhorn spread goes a lot bulkier to avoid certain KO thresholds and hit back hard. Taillow and Pidgeotto won't be 2HKOing this variant of Rhyhorn with their coverage moves, and Rhyhorn has the special bulk to withstand Hidden Power Water/Grass from neutral-natured Pokemon with 70 Special Attack or lower, which includes Spoink and something else that's a spoiler for later in this post! As Rhyhorn has less breathing room to deal with Grass-types switching in without Substitute, Toxic is a valid alternative to Megahorn. On this set, Protect makes more sense than Substitute for farming Leftovers recovery and scouting Choice Band attackers like Spinda for their coverage moves, and it synergizes with Toxic. If you remember this set variant from old ZU, then you might be tempted to put Counter on it, but it has less need for the move with Koffing not in SU.
Last but not least, Tentacool is a cool new addition for its typing, solid Speed, and workable special bulk. Between Tentacool and Chinchou, Fire-types no longer have a Hidden Power type that beats both of the newcomers and existing Water-types, so Tentacool's defensive profile will make it a welcome emergency check to something like Agility + Petaya Growlithe. With Swords Dance and Water / Poison STAB coverage, Tentacool looks like it will be a solid wallbreaker that can put pressure on bulkier Pokemon like Rhyhorn and Lombre, the latter of which can create opportunities for Tentacool to set up.
Swords Dance (Tentacool) @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze / Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sludge Bomb
- Surf / Hidden Power Ground
- Substitute / Hidden Power Ground
Tentacool's great typing works to its favor offensively and defensively for acting as a wallbreaker with Swords Dance. In all likelihood, there's a better EV spread for this out there, but you're free to discover that on your own, as I think running as much Speed as possible to outpace the crowded base 60-65 speed tiers is the best move. Surf is useful for an immediate OHKO against Rhyhorn and doesn't require Tentacool to set up to hit Aron hard, but Hidden Power Ground OHKOes Aron at +2 and is a lot stronger against Ground-weak Poison-types like Nidorino and Grimer even without a boost. Substitute is useful for Tentacool to avoid being paralyzed by Weepinbell or revenge killed, but it might even be replaceable by Hidden Power Ground itself. With maximum HP investment, Tentacool's Substitute could withstand Hidden Power Grass Cyndaquil's attacks, potentially cutting a spot in the lead metagame for it, although Tentacool needs 252 Attack EVs to have a good shot at OHKOing max HP Cacnea. Tentacool's ability choice isn't especially pressing, but Liquid Ooze looks like it will be a bit more useful for switching Tentacool into Leech Seed and Giga Drain from Grass-types it wants to threaten.
With one Spikes setter left in the tier, Cacnea, and the existence of just one uncommon Ghost-type, Shuppet, Tentacool is fairly free to run a Rapid Spin support set to bully it better than Staryu can. Investing fully into Tentacool's special bulk can actually let it act as a reliable answer to Water-type sweepers including Horsea, Lombre, and special Croconaw, and it's still solid against Fire- and Grass-types too. However, this variant of Tentacool is quite passive in a tier that doesn't look like it's going to stop being primarily offensive any time soon. While Tentacool has some off-beat options in its moveset between Mirror Coat, Giga Drain, and Thief, I think the Swords Dance one will be the way to go.
I'll quickly touch on some of the rises from tier shifts in this section:
So we're losing two of our best defensive Rock-types without getting Lileep despite that mon not having been seen in ZU tours for months... which bum organized this VR update again? I wish I could say jokes aside (for my pookie Zpice's sake), but losing one of the best answers to Delibird and Normal- and Poison-types doesn't feel like a laughing matter. At the very least, we have Rhyhorn to somewhat fill the void, but running Rock-types in this tier is now going to come with the pain of all of them having 4x weaknesses.
ZU really had it out for our defensive pieces in this update, and they didn't even account for losing Mightyena yet, yeesh. Dustox leaving the tier is a pretty big hit, as it was one of our most stalwart pieces against special attackers like Staryu and Illumise with a ton of defensive utility between its reliable recovery, great special bulk, immunity to poison, and access to Whirlwind. However, Drowzee is a solid replacement in its role as a special wall, and not having a Fire-weak wall at the forefront of the tier does open up the metagame to go in new directions that I'll be discussing more in-depth later in this post. This is a painful rise, but it might not be that bad in the long-run.
If I had a nickel for every time ZU took a Spikes user from our tier, I'd have two nickels. It's not a lot, but it makes sense that it happened twice considering PU snapped up Pineco (now B+ next to Cacturne and ahead of Roselia in the most recent NU VR) before forcing ZU to resort to Snorunt. This leaves us with just Cacnea as the sole Spikes setter of the tier. Cacnea's not bad by any means (B+ on the VR is underselling it IMO), but Snorunt's departure and another one of our rises are going to change the lead metagame and the ways offensive teams can play. Like Dustox, this change might be for the best, as Spikes would often make threats like Delibird and Taillow a lot tougher to play around.
Speaking of the lead metagame, sure was funny to talk all about how good Wailmer is in that in my post above only for it to rise a few weeks later. Not to be a broken record though, but Wailmer moving up might open up the tier a bit more, as it was such as a strong lead and wallbreaker that it was a bit much to deal with, enough for me to consider going back to Electrike, which might be cooked with Chinchou in the tier now. Dealing with strong Water-type STAB moves and Self-Destruct at the same time was a lot, although I still anticipate that the metagame will stay pretty offensive. Croconaw makes a solid replacement as a bulky Water-type on teams that were using Wailmer defensively, and Drowzee is more than bulky enough to act as a special wall to Fire-types. Speaking of which...
I'd like to cap this post off by announcing that the ADV SU council is opting to unban Magby.
Back in March 2024 (has it really been two and a half years since then ) when ADV SU experienced a huge wave of drops, Magby was in the batch of new additions, and it quickly asserted itself as one of the top offensive pieces of that fresh metagame. At the time, Magby felt overwhelming for its high Speed as a wallbreaker combined with its typing letting it pressure the tier's best special wall, Dustox. However, Dustox is gone now, and the drops of Chinchou and Tentacool have changed what coverage moves Magby wants to run. Needing to both of Thunder Punch for Tentacool and Hidden Power Grass for Chinchou and Rhyhorn means that Magby can't find room for all of Substitute, Cross Chop / Focus Punch, and Toxic. Lastly, Drowzee's recent drop introduced a special wall that is only 4HKOed by Magby's Fire Blast, and it's hard to get more airtight than that in a lower tier. With all this in mind, we are opting to free Magby and observe its place the new state of the tier.
I'm looking forward to having more ADV SU on the forum and in the SU Discord going into the new year, stay tuned for more updates and information as they come.
Despite being in the council, this will, rather surprisingly, be my first ADV SU forum post. I wanted to post my predictions for the new meta before I go and play some games for myself. Keep in mind not to take my opinions seriously. These will surely be outdated within days, but I hope I can explain my thoughts well.
BETTER
Aron, in my opinion, became the weakest of the big three Rocks in ADV SU. Onix outsped and threatened to take it out, while Nosepass, that evil bastard, could trap the poor thing. While extremely good, especially against Dustox, Aron became increasingly hard for me to justify running. Thankfully for Aron, Nosepass and Onix are gone now. Rhyhorn's return will still give it competition, but since Rhyhorn has clear defensive holes that Aron lacks, running Aron will become way more optimal now. I predict that both will be around the same level of viability.
I love Bagon, and I have an inkling that it'll be better. Bagon's biggest weakness is stray Ice coverage from boltbeam users, but Chinchou will be able to absorb those while threatening Thunder Wave on them. This gives Bagon much more flexibility to set up, especially since it'll be so good at punishing Magby. This all applies to Dratini as well.
Cacnea very naturally becomes better since we lost Snorunt. In general, I think Cacnea is underrated since it punishes passive Grasses and Waters extremely hard.
I think with, the exception of one Pokemon, that clerics universally get better now. The best special wall will no longer be immune to Toxic, and that makes Parasect and Snubull far more important.
I have high hopes for Farfetch'd. Now that it doesn't have to dance around three Rocks, its sweeping potential should become quite a bit more consistent.
I think Weepinbell gets ever so slightly better because it can pair its sun hijinks with Magby now.
CANCELS OUT
I think Croconaw will stay about the same. It'll be extremely important for beating Magby, but doesn't love Chinchou being added.
Now that Wailmer doesn't utterly mog it as a lead, Cyndaquil has some potential to return to the spotlight, but Magby makes me skeptical of how much it could really rise.
I think the changes to Delibird are why I think this meta will likely be more offensive. We lost a great defensive counterplay option in Nosepass, but Magby is a great offensive answer to it, which I think will push teams to trying to out-pace it.
Lombre being the only Water that can hurt Chinchou is huge for it, but it's massive Tentacool bait now, more than other Waters.
Walled by Chinchou now. That said, it crushes Magby, which Illumise struggles with.
WORSE
I think Fires get worse, although Growlithe is the only one that actually matters. Now that Magby beats it in terms of coverage and stats, I think it'll be harder to fit Growlithe. Flash Fire is the biggest grace, however, as I think Growlithe could be good at slowing down Magby, depending on the set. I theorize, though, that Magby will use a lot of HP Ground (because of Chinchou and Tentacool), so who knows how good this will be. At least Growlithe can still Agility sweep ig.
This is an edited section since my DPP brain forgot that Clefairy doesn't have cleric moves. I think it's gonna struggle over Drowzee and Snubbull because of this.
Geodude's niche used to be fairly unique, but now Rhyhorn mostly just outclasses it.
To be fair, I only think Illumise gets slightly worse. It's still Illumise. However, it will now need Giga Drain for Chinchou. That's a fairly sizable nerf, even if it's still going to be an insanely good utility machine as always.
imo this is just outclassed by Chinchou now. Even with Heal Bell, I think this will be really hard to run over it.
Included this one more as a meme, but Magby fries it.
I think Slowpoke gets slightly worse with Chinchou, even if Nosepass' absence might it a bit more common of a Delibird answer. I still think it's worse off, though.
Chinchou
Drowzee
Magby
Rhyhorn
Tentacool
Illumise
Staryu
Delibird
Spinda
Croconaw
Sunflora
Aron
Grimer
Growlithe
Lombre
Spoink
Taillow
Weepinbell
Bayleef
Meowth
Nidorino
Smoochum
Cacnea
Cyndaquil
Exeggcute
Farfetch'd
Horsea
Shuppet
Snubbull
Clefairy
Larvitar
Parasect
Pidgeotto
Slowpoke
Bagon
Geodude
Luvdisc
Mankey
Mareep
Masquerain
Numel
Baltoy
Kirlia
Dratini
Kabuto
Machop
Natu
Nuzleaf
Venonat
Beautifly
Butterfree
Carvanha
Ledian
Loudred
Nidorina
Rattata
Zigzagoon
) when ADV SU experienced a huge wave of drops, Magby was in the batch of new additions, and it quickly asserted itself as one of the top offensive pieces of that fresh metagame. At the time, Magby felt overwhelming for its high Speed as a wallbreaker combined with its typing letting it pressure the tier's best special wall, Dustox. However, Dustox is gone now, and the drops of Chinchou and Tentacool have changed what coverage moves Magby wants to run. Needing to both of Thunder Punch for Tentacool and Hidden Power Grass for Chinchou and Rhyhorn means that Magby can't find room for all of Substitute, Cross Chop / Focus Punch, and Toxic. Lastly, Drowzee's recent drop introduced a special wall that is only 4HKOed by Magby's Fire Blast, and it's hard to get more airtight than that in a lower tier. With all this in mind, we are opting to free Magby and observe its place the new state of the tier. 
