Gen 3 ADV Ubers mini-analyses thread

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ADV UBERS MINI ANALYSES


Hi everyone, as you all know, the ADV Ubers analyses on the main site are incredibly out-of-date, but on the other hand, revamping the lot of them will take a lot of work and it's unlikely that such a project would garner enough support. As a compromise, I've decided to start this thread so we can have up-to-date "analyses" for the ADV Ubers metagame that has enough information for people to start playing with.

Here's how it goes. I'll order the Pokemon and sets out of viability. For each set, you will write what the set is, a few brief notes on what the set does and how to check/counter it. If you wish to add additional information, you may so, but make it succinct. A big complaint about stuff like BW or DPP analyses are that they are way too fluffy. All we need here are dot points to get immediately to the point.

The viability rankings can be seen here

Format will be:

Set name
Pokemon @ Item
Ability: Ability
EVs: HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe (in that order)
Nature: Nature
- move 1
- move 2
- move 3
- move 4

Notes:
- Insert text here

Checks/counters:
- Insert text here


Additional sets will just be rinse and repeat. At the end of every Pokemon, you may add additional information like "Other concepts to look into" or whatever else you feel important to include.

As for what gets included, it will be an informal discussion in terms of ADV Ubers players and a consensus be reached. I'll be the one editing the OP so I'll also have a say in stuff, obviously! Seeing as the metagame does change from time to time, we can edit these sets at will, and we won't have the kind of bureaucracy of the whole QC/GP/SCMS stuff that we need for the main site here.

I've written up the S rank Pokemon already, so if you're still confused on the format, just follow what I've done. If you disagree with anything, discuss it in a civil manner.

S:
Latios:

Roles:
- Attacker/Sweeper (more offensive inclined)
- Checks Kyogre, Groudon and most special attackers
Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam / Dragon Claw
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Recover / Refresh / Hidden Power Fire

Notes:
- Standard set with best overall versatility
- Achieves excellent coverage with BoltBeam or Dragon Claw + Thunder(bolt), good longevity with Recover and can sweep with Calm Mind
- Refresh can be used to fuck over T-wavers
- Can be used as a generic lead

Checks and counters:
- Blissey
- Snorlax
- Regice
- Shedinja
- Lanturn
- Steels (watch for HP Fire in sun)
- Ho-oh in sun
- Lugia in sun
- Umbreon
- Soft checks: CB Deo-A, Mewtwo, Steelix, CB Kabu, CB Qwilfish

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid
- Dragon Claw
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Fire
- Solarbeam

Notes:
- Maximum coverage while losing CM and Recover
- Best used as a lead and mid-game attacker - Solarbeam is Latios's attack vs Groudon
- Solarbeam does fail to OHKO most properly EVed lead Groudons - is there any point to this set then?

Checks and counters: Same as CM + 3

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
- Dragon Dance
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Fighting / Earthquake
- Thunder / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam

Notes:
- Physical Latios has a whole different list of counters, defeats Blissey/Snorlax and friends
- HP Fighting vs EQ is the choice between killing Blissey/Snorlax vs killing stuff like Jirachi
- Special move in last slot lets you either kill Skarmory or deal more damage to Groudon.
- Spe EVs outspeed +ve 90s

Checks/counters:
- Steels (Metagross, Jirachi, Registeel, Forretress, Skarmory) - the first 3 need to watch out for EQ, Skarmory needs to watch out for Tbolt
- Groudon - needs to watch out for Ice Beam
- Ho-oh
- Lugia
- Salamence - needs to watch out for Ice Beam
- Physically defensive Kyogre with Thunder Wave

- Refresh + 3 attacks lead
- CB + Trick
- Thunder Wave
- Memento
- Safeguard

- Mono-attacker - Just use Latias

Latias:

Roles:
- Attacker/Sweeper (slower and more bulky style)
- Checks Kyogre and Groudon and most special attackers
Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Nature: Bold
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Claw
- Refresh / Substitute
- Recover

Notes:
- Refresh defeats Seismic Toss + Toxic Blissey, while Substitute has a very good chance of defeating Calm Mind Blissey (or you can throw 20 SpD EVs and a Calm nature to totally defeat CM Blissey so that its Ice Beam never break your Subs) - Spread would be 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SpD Calm
- Max HP / max Def+ would give you an emergency check vs SubSalac Donner, since you can live a +2 HP Ghost at full and finish off the Donner, which is also important, so pick your set and EV spread wisely
- Note about SubCM - while odds are on Latias' side vs CM Blissey, there can very well be a chance that you don't crit any of your Dragon Claws so you'd be forced to PP stall Blissey to beat (obviously you won't be able to do anything else after)

Checks/counters:
- Steels (Metagross, Jirachi with Shadow Ball, Forretress, Steelix)
- Snorlax
- Blissey (CM vs Seismic Toss/Toxic depending on the set)
- Ho-oh
- Shedinja
- Deo-A for a revenge kill if no Sub up

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam / Dragon Claw
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Recover

Notes:
- Pretty much same as CM + Recover Latios, but a bit better for switching into Kyogre since Ice Beam doesn't do as much

Checks/Counters:
- See Latios set

- SpD

Kyogre:
Roles:
- Tanky attacker
- Rain provider
- T-Wave bot
- Sweeper (SubSalac)
- Checks: Good blanket check to pretty much everything not named Lati@s or Electric attackers
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Nature: Modest
- Thunder Wave
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind / Thunder

Notes:
- Cripples most of its switch-ins with Thunder Wave, especially Lati@s, allowing to defeat them long-term
- If using CM: Generally T-Wave the Lati@s switch-in, switch out, come back later on a safe switch, CM up and win (you 2HKO Latios regardless, while Latias MAY be able to keep up in a CM war for while until it gets full paralysed)
- If using Thunder: you still have a good chance of 2HKOing Latios on the switch or with a full para without hitting it on the switch-in, but Latias is a bit harder to take down
- 2 ways to EV - fully defensive so Kyogre is a decent check pretty much anything outside of Lati@s or Magneton/Raikou/Zapdos, while max SpA lets you muscle past Blissey that don't invest in max SpD after a boost (and kill more things)

Checks/counters:
- Blissey
- SpD Latias
- Kyogre with Thunder
- Ludicolo
- Shedinja
- Quagsire
- Lanturn

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Notes:
- Aims to defeat Blissey by using 101 HP Subs
- Otherwise functions like a regular Kyogre

Checks/counters:
- Same as T-wave + CM, but replace Blissey with Lati@s

Kyogre @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Notes:
- Best coverage + CM
- Loses to all the standard Kyogre checks/counters apart from Kyogre itself but damn that coverage is good (also does a lot more to stuff like Ludicolo)
- Lum Berry lets you blast through Blissey

Checks/counters:
- Blissey (if no Lum)
- Lati@s
- Ludicolo
- Shedinja
- Quagsire
- Lanturn

Kyogre @ Salac Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 152 SpA / 104 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam

Notes:
- Same moveset as SubCM, but serves a different purpose
- 252 HP lets you may 101 HP Subs, which lets you set up more CMs to muscle past Blissey - you 2HKO with Hydro Pump at +2/+2 or with Surf at +3/+3/+1.
- More of a late game cleaner - can Sub up, CM as Lati@s breaks Sub, Ice Beam as they Thunder and fail to kill and let you activate Salac, and then kill the Lati@s, then go on to sweep with +1/+1/+1 Kyogre.
- EVs let you activate Salac at 25%, as well as outspeeding neutral base 130s and Raikou at +1.

Checks/counters:
- Basically the same as T-wave/CM

Groudon:
Roles:
- Physical tank
- SD Sweeper
- Sun
- Checks: Steels not named Skarmory, physical attackers in general, Electric mons
Groudon @ Salac Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 156 HP / 248 Atk / 104 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Ghost / Rock Slide

Notes:
- Probably one of the more dangerous sweepers
- Either Sub down to 25% then SD as they break your last Sub or SD up and Sub down on slower mons
- 104 Spe lets you outspeed neutral base 130s (96 does it too, but you need HP divisible by 4, so you may as well leave the rest in Spe) as well as Raikou at +1
- HP Ghost is best in general since Latis are more important threats, but Rock Slide is better coverage in general while hitting Ho-oh/Ray
- Need to be more careful switching this into things since it hasn't got as much bulk invested.

Checks/counters:
- Skarmory
- Rayquaza
- Ho-oh (HP Ghost)
- Lugia
- Lati@s (Rock Slide)
- Flygon
- Physically defensive Kyogre
- Groudon
- Salamence
- Exeggutor, Jumpluff
- Heracross
- Deo-A

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
NAture: Adamant
- Thunder Wave
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

Notes:
- More reliable as an SD than SubSalac, allowing to play both support and attacker
- Strong physical tank that does well spreading paralysis
- Rock Slide is best all-round coverage, HP Ghost gets Latis and Double Edge hits everything, including Flygon!
- Fire Blast can hit Skarm if you're into that

Checks/counters:
- Skarmory (if lacking Fire Blast)
- Lugia (with Reflect)
- Lati@s (don't switch into T-wave or HP Ghost)
- Flygon (if lacking Double Edge)
- Physically defensive Kyogre
- Rayquaza

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Toxic
- Roar / Flamethrower

Notes:
- Good to lead with so you can get sun up, and T-Wave any Lati@s leads that you see (you can survive anything they use)
- Can use as a physically defensive Pokemon if you so desire but then don't lead with it
- Toxic is good with Flamethrower because nothing that is immune to Toxic like EQ and Flamethrower

Checks/counters:
- Lugia (avoid Toxic)
- Skarmory (if no Flamethrower)
- Lati@s (you'll get T-Waved though)
- Kyogre
- Groudon
- Flygon

Groudon @ Choice Band
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power Bug
- Double Edge / Fire Blast / Toxic

Notes:
- Strong attacker, but needs good prediction
- HP Bug is best since you can hit everything you need with HP Ghost with Rock Slide already, apart from Lati@s, which you still hit with HP Bug. HP Bug then gets Grass-types, which is good
- Double Edge is best last move since it hits most things really hard, and apart from Skarm, nothing that can switch into Double Edge can take EQ.
- Overheat wrecks Skarm
- Toxic lures in shit like Lugia and laughs at it

Checks/counters:
- Skarmory (if no Overheat)
- Flygon (if no Double Edge)
- Lugia
- Lati@s
- Salamence
- Ray

- Body Slam


A+:
Snorlax:
Roles:
- Special tank
- Curse
- Checks: Special attackers not named Kyogre
Snorlax @ Choice Band / Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 SpD
Nature: Adamant
- Body Slam / Return
- Selfdestruct
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball / Fire Blast

Notes:
- Best offensive special tank in the metagame
- Body Slam is preferred because of awesome paralysis chance, and ADV games are long enough that it's probably going to count
- Return is perfectly fine if you want to hit hard too
- Boom kills almost everything except like Skarm and Gengar and Steelix
- Choice Band vs Leftovers depending on your team - if your team is a bit slower, pick Leftovers for the longevity, if you're more offensively based or have a decent secondary Lati check, use CB

Checks/counters:
- Steels (watch out for EQ or Fire Blast in sun)
- Regirock
- Groudon
- Bulky Salamence
- Dusclops

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Body Slam

Notes:
- Pretty self-explanatory, just make you don't forget about the gen 3 sleep mechanics
- Good for slower teams that need a sturdy Lati@s check but also need a win condition

Checks/counters:
- Steels
- Groudon
- Kyogre (3HKOs with Surf)
- Fighters

Snorlax @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 SpD
Nature: Adamant
- Body Slam
- Selfdestruct
- Earthquake / Fire Blast
- Rest

Notes:
- Kind of like the first set, but gives Snorlax some more longevity
- Again, for slower teams that need a more sturdy Lati@s check

Checks counters:
- Same as others

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 SpD
Nature: Adamant
- Curse
- Protect
- Body Slam
- Shadow Ball

Notes:
- Kind of compresses the mono-Attacking Curselax with standard tank set
- Protect lets you get Leftovers recovery and scouts shit like CB Metagross (and protect yourself from exploding mons)
- Immunity is used to prevent Toxic from wearing you down
- Shadow Ball lets you hit Gengar so you're not totally walled

Checks/counters:
- Same as others

Deoxys-A:
Roles:
- Strong and fast af
- Best cleaner ever
- Checks: Lati@s (revenge kill with CB), otherwise not very much at all
Deoxys-Attack @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Ball
- Superpower
- Double-Edge

Notes:
- Spread is self-explanatory
- Extreme Speed is for Rayquaza, opposing Deo-A, weather sweepers, and the odd +1 setup Pokemon
- Shadow Ball is for maximum damage against Lati and Mewtwo, and hits Shedinja
- Superpower is to blow through Snorlax, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Regice, Rock-types, and Steel-types
- Double-Edge has maximum damage output against mostly everything else

Checks and Counters:
- Pursuit
- Defensive Kyogre
- Bulky Groudon
- Jirachi
- Salamence
- Skarmory
- Extreme Speed
- Ghost + Normal-type squads

Deoxys-Attack @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Mild
IVs: 30 HP
- Substitute
- Superpower
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Notes:
- Spread is self-explanatory, except 30 HP IVs are used so that Petaya activates on the 3rd Substitute
- The Spread also wants a SpA+ Nature because it gives the best chance at OHKOing Lati at +1
- Substitute is used to ease prediction when forcing a switch, and is used to activate Petaya
- Superpower breaks several Pokemon that would otherwise wall this set such as Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Umbreon, and Regice
- Boltbeam is superior coverage, Thunder is used of Thunderbolt as you miss critical damage outputs on Ho-Oh, Kyogre, and some other Pokemon without it

Checks and Counters:
- Shedinja
- Bulky Latias
- Jirachi
- Swampert
- Extreme Speed
- Anything with 399 Speed or higher

Deoxys-Attack @ Spell Tag
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Lonely / Hasty
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Ball
- Superpower
- Double-Edge / Fire Punch

Notes:
- Spread is basically the same as CB, but Spell Tag is used to potentially bluff being locked into a move
- Extreme Speed is for Rayquaza, opposing Deo-A, weather sweepers, and the odd +1 setup Pokemon
- Shadow Ball is for maximum damage against Lati and Mewtwo, and hits Shedinja
- Superpower hits Snorlax, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Regice, Rock-types, and Steel-types
- Double-Edge has maximum damage output against mostly everything else
- Fire Punch can be used to destroy Forretress and hit Skarmory hard

Checks and Counters:
- Defensive Kyogre
- Bulky Groudon
- Jirachi
- Salamence
- Most other Pokemon with solid physical bulk
- Extreme Speed

Mewtwo:
Roles:
- Attacker/cleaner
- Basically Deo-A with slightly less power (and doesn't usually go physical) but isn't anywhere near as easily killed
- Checks: Not much specifically, but you can always have a fast boom on problematic things
Mewtwo @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Mild / Hasty
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Taunt / Fire Blast
- Selfdestruct

Notes:
- Very good lead that pressures pretty much everything
- Defeats Lati@s and Groudon with Ice Beam - you survive everything Lati@s throws at you while you waste Thunder Wave Groudon via Lum Berry
- You lose to Hydro Pump Kyogre leads, as well as the less common CB Ho-oh, Snorlax and Slaking leads. In these circumstances you can switch to your counter or blow up on them.
- You can always bring this Mewtwo back in mid-game to try and blow up on something or even clean late-game, so keep that in mind before blowing up turn 1.

Checks/Counters:
- Kyogre
- Ho-oh
- Snorlax
- Metagross (if no Fire Blast)
- Shedinja (if no Fire Blast)
- CB Deo-A

Mewtwo @ Lum Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Mild / Modest
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Selfdestruct / Fire Blast

Notes:
- High Speed + high SpA + good bulk makes Mewtwo a very good Calm Mind user
- Very hard to wall and needs good pivoting to checks

Checks/Counters:
- Ho-oh in sun (Fire Blast variants)
- Shedinja (Boom variants)
- Blissey (Fire Blast variants)
- Snorlax (Fire Blast variants)
- Regice in rain (Fire Blast variants)
- CB Deo-A

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Ice Beam
- Thunder / Thunderbolt

Notes:
- Lets you avoid status and destroy Blissey
- Boltbeam rounds out coverage
- Can also lead with this - can Sub on T-waves which could be fun. Can also stall out Hydro Pump Kyogres.

Checks/Counters:
- Same as 4 attacks variant

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Bulk Up
- Shadow Ball
- Brick Break
- Selfdestruct / Recover

Notes:
- Changes things up
- Sort of weak, although seeing as how a lot of Ubers are Psychics, +1 Shadow Ball smacks them pretty hard
- +1 Boom is always fun

Checks/Counters:
- Groudon
- Kyogre
- Ho-oh
- Steels

Other concepts to look into:
- Choice Band
- SubCM
- Psych Up

Blissey:
Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
- Softboiled
- Aromatherapy
- Seismic Toss / Icy Wind
- Toxic

Notes:
- Standard special wall - beats most special attackers in the tier
- Lets you act as a cleric but loses ability to pass Wish
- DOES lose to things like Refresh Lati@s, Rest CM Kyogre and 101 HP SubCM users, so make sure you are aware of those limitations
- Toxic is your main way of damage, and Seismic Toss can be used to break Subs

Checks/counters:
- Steels
- Groudon
- Choice Banders
- Deo-A

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
- Wish
- Protect
- Seismic Toss / Icy Wind
- Toxic

Notes:
- Wish Passer, but loses ability to use Aromatherapy (Wish and Aroma are illegal together in ADV Ubers IIRC)
- Otherwise functions just like standard wall

Checks/counters:
- Same as standard wall

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure / Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Nature: Modest
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Softboiled

Notes:
- Attacking Blissey does well enough as it allows you to CM alongside special attackers that might have a way to sidestep Seismic Toss + Toxic (eg SubCM Kyogre, Refresh CM Lati@s)
- Loses to SubCM Lati@s though! Keep that in mind
- BoltBeam is strong coverage

Checks/counters:
- Snorlax
- Opposing Blissey
- SubCM Lati@s
- Groudon
- Shedinja
- Metagross, Steelix
- Choice Banders


A:
Forretress:
Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful / Sassy
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Hidden Power Ghost / Hidden Power Bug / Hidden Power Fire

Notes:
- Best spinner in gen 3
- Probably best Spiker too
- HP Ghost hits Gengar pretty hard and kills Shedinja, but HP Fire lets you beat other Forrys

Checks/counters:
- Magneton
- Ho-oh
- Gengar
- Kyogre
- Other Ghosts (Dusclops/Banette)
- Most things don't mind taking its attacks, but does not stop it Spiking or Spinning

- Earthquake

Lugia:
Lugia @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
- Aeroblast
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam / Whirlwind

Notes:
- Strong bird
- Aeroblast is a nice strong spammable STAB
- Can lead with this thing since you don't really lose to any of the leads - you'll get T-waved by Groudon, but you'd have done quite a bit of damage already
- Last slot is filler - Ice Beam lets you kill Ray, while if you don't need to check such a shit Pokemon that is Rayquaza. Whirlwind lets you clutch phaze things.

Checks/counters:
- Skarmory
- Other Steels, but need to watch out for EQ
- Regirock
- Zapdos
- Aerodactyl
- Raikou, but need to watch out for EQ
- Defensive Kyogre

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Nature: Bold
- Reflect / Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Whirlwind
- Recover

Notes:
- Standard defensive Lugia similar to later gens
- Reflect and Whirlwind stop most physical attackers, while Ice Beam deals damage to most of them (Groudon, shitmon Ray, etc)
- Toxic can go over Reflect if you so desires

Checks/counters:
- TOXIC
- Steels
- Magneton / Raikou / Zapdos
- Kyogre

- Calm Mind

Ho-oh:
Ho-oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Double Edge / Hidden Power Flying
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Sacred Fire

Notes:
- Strong Pokemon
- Double Edge does a lot of damage to common Ho-oh switch-ins (eg Kyogre), HP Flying lets you not kill yourself too quickly
- Shadow Ball specifically for Lati@s and Lugia
- Sacred Fire and EQ discourage Steels from switching in
- Feel free to run more Speed to creep.

Checks/counters:
- Defensive Kyogre
- Regirock
- Lugia
- Groudon

Ho-oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Mild
- Calm Mind
- Sacred Fire
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Recover / Shadow Ball

Notes:
- Since Sacred Fire is special in gen 3, you can use a CM set with it
- Boosts your SpD while burning shit, which is nice
- Thunder is specifically for Kyogre
- Shadow Ball is so you're not walled to hell and back by Lati@s

Checks/counters:
- Lati@s (if lacking Shadow Ball)
- Regirock
- Kyogre
- Defensive Ho-oh
- Rayquaza
- Kabutops/Omastar in rain
- Aerodactyl

Ho-oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 SpD
Nature: Careful
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Fire
- Recover
- Toxic / Whirlwind

Notes:
- See WreckDra's post

Checks/counters:
- See WreckDra's post

Ho-oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe OR 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Nature: Timid / Calm
- Substitute
- Recover
- Flamethrower
- Toxic

Notes:
- Fun set if you have Spikes up - Toxic everything and just Sub stall them out
- Fire move discourages Steel types from taking Toxic
- Flamethrower is used over Sacred Fire because 1) it messes with Toxic and 2) it has more PP, which you need if you want to stall with Pressure

Checks/counters:
- Rest Kyogre
- Refresh Lati@s
- Blissey
- Kabutops/Omastar in rain

Jirachi:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Careful
- Wish
- Protect
- Body Slam / Thunder Wave
- Shadow Ball

Notes:
- Lati@s check
- Body Slam lets you paralyse shit, especially Groudon, but Thunder Wave may be more reliable
- Wish passing is always good
- Shadow Ball damages Lati@s

Checks/counters:
- Magneton
- Groudon
- Blissey
- Kyogre
- Ho-oh
- Other Steels, especially Spikers
- Tyranitar

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Calm
- Calm Mind
- Ice Punch
- Thunder
- Wish

Notes:
- Calm Mind user that beats Blissey (non-CM) and can sort of beat Lati@s but not really
- Wish for longevity
- Should use in rain so you can get freezes on Lati@s, otherwise in sun you're doing seriously jack shit vs them if you're both at +6 and you'll just get stalled out

Checks/counters:
- Snorlax
- SubCM Lati@s
- Metagross
- Ho-oh
- Shedinja
- Magneton with Metal Sound


A-:
Rayquaza:
Rayquaza @ Choice Band
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Double Edge
- Earthquake
- Extremespeed
- Rock Slide / Overheat

Notes:
- Probably the best set
- CB Double Edges are quite strong, while ES picks off a lot of weakened things
- Rock Slide hits Ho-oh and Lugia harder, but Overheat can catch out Skarm

Checks/counters:
- Regirock
- Skarmory (watch out for Overheat)
- Groudon
- Lugia
- Steels (watch out for EQ and Overheat)
- Gengar can switch into 3/4 moves so it's not a bad switch-in.

Rayquaza @ Lum Berry / Nevermeltice
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Nature: Mild
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Extremespeed
- Brick Break / Fire Blast / Rock Slide

Notes:
- Beats Groudon if they're not at +2 already and have Rock Slide - Ice Beam can 2HKO and Thunder Wave is neutered by Lum Berry.
- BoltBeam is good coverage but quite weak, especially when Thunderbolt is only doing like 35% to max HP Kyogres, and Lati@s can set up on your puny Ice Beams unless you get lucky and freeze them
- ES can pick off Deo-A's and that's about it - you only do like 15% to SubSalac Donners so have fun with that
- Basically, the main niche is anti-Groudon, anti-Swift Swimmer/Chlorophyll and anti-Deo-A. If that's what you need, then use this. Good for rain based teams that need a glue check for those three things.

Checks/counters:
- You'd be hard pressed to 2HKO any of the following:
- Lati@s
- Kyogre
- Regirock
- Regice
- Mewtwo
- Lugia
- Steels (if not running Fire Blast)
- Tyranitar (if not running Brick Break)

Rayquaza @ Sharp Beak / Silk Scarf
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power Flying / Double Edge
- Earthquake
- Extremespeed

Notes:
- This can't actually kill much unless they're weakened first, so you should pretty much only use this late game when shit has been weakened first, or to revenge shit like Deo-A
- Double Edge is stronger which is what Ray needs, but you're totally walled by Gengar, so HP Flying is probably still better as your main STAB
- Why the fuck does this not have SD

Checks/counters:
- Lugia
- Regirock
- Defensive Kyogre
- Aerodactyl
- Zapdos (loses to Double Edge)


Magneton:
Magneton @ Magnet / Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
- Toxic / Thunder Wave
- Metal Sound

Notes:
- Standard Magneton that traps most of your Steels
- Only problems might be Metagross or Steelix since you need it weakened first (or you trap a CB variant) - or you can just Thunder/HP Fire it for a shit ton of damage so your Lati@s can clean it later
- Thunder/HP Ice is better for rain teams and in general, but if your team is more Groudon based, use T-bolt and HP Fire.
- Metal Sound lets you take on CM Jirachi - don't be surprised if the piece of shit misses though!

Checks/counters:
- Groudon
- Blissey
- Snorlax
- Refresh Lati@s

Regice:
Regice @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 132 SpA
Nature: Sassy
- Ice Beam
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Psych Up
- Explosion / Rest / Toxic

Notes:
- Basically like a special Snorlax, which automatically makes it less effective since you rely on other methods to kill your main things you want to counter - namely Lati@s
- That said, this is a pretty damn good Lati@s check - between Psych Up, Ice Beam and Toxic, most Lati@s cannot beat you without a crit (probably the only one would be like DD Latios)
- Explosion if you want to blow a 60% hole in Blissey for something to take out
- BoltBeam coverage is good

Checks/counters:
- Snorlax
- Blissey (watch out for boom)
- Opposing Regice
- Ho-oh
- Jirachi
- Tyranitar

Skarmory:
Roles:
- Physical wall
- Spiker
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Bold
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Spikes
- Taunt / Protect

Notes:
- Physical wall, not much to say
- Sets up Spikes and Toxics annoying physical attackers like Groudon
- Taunt is preferred in last slot to stop stuff like Forretress setting up Spikes on you, but Protect is also cool to get more Leftovers recovery

Checks/counters:
- Magneton
- Anything with Thunder(bolt)
- Ho-oh
- Kyogre
- CM Jirachi


B+:
Gengar:
Roles:
- Spinblocker
- Fast attacker
- Status platform
- Checks: Spin, things that use Normal/Ground coverage, Groudon to an extent
Standard:
Gengar @ Magnet / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive
- Thunder / Fire Punch
- Shadow Ball / Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Explosion

Notes:
- Standard Gengar spinblocker
- Thunder or Fire Punch threatens Forretress (depending on the weather you're more likely to be using)
- WoW and Boom to cripple shit
- Use with hazards, obviously

Checks:
- All need to watch out for Boom
- Ho-oh
- Kyogre
- Faster mons like Mewtwo

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 32 Def / 100 SpA / 140 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hypnosis
- Explosion
- Ice Punch
- Will-O-Wisp / Thunder

Notes:
- Gengar is one of few viable Ghost-types to use in Ubers.
- Immunity to Spikes, large movepool including status+boom, and the fact that it's not straight up neutered by passive damage helps set it apart from Shedinja
- Speed investment hits neutral-natured base 110s and by extension, Jolly Rayquaza.
- Bulk investment ensures Gengar lives a HP Ghost from 252+ Groudon and can put it to Sleep/Burn it/pick it off with Ice Punch or Boom.
- Remaining EVs put into SpA.
- Leftovers also provides passive recovery and is the only good item on Gengar anyway.
- Hypnosis puts stuff to sleep but is let down by bad accuracy
- Explosion lets Gengar hit special walls like Blissey and Snorlax while putting a decent dent into anything that isn't a Steel- or Ghost-type
- Ice Punch hits Dragons as well as dealing decent damage to Groudon
- Will-O-Wisp can be used as a safer crippling tool, also stopping things like Groudon.
- Thunder offers strong coverage with Ice Punch.

Checks and Counters:
- Faster Pokemon such as Deoxys-A, Mewtwo, Aerodactyl, +Speed Base 110s, weather sweepers.
- Bulky Steel-types such as Registeel, Steelix, Jirachi and Metagross.
- Tyranitar
- General bulky stuff running around like Kyogre, Ho-Oh, and Lugia can stomach hits fairly well but fear Explosion or Hypnosis.
- Special walls such as Snorlax, Umbreon, Blissey, Latias, and Regice. All fear Explosion and Hypnosis though. Umbreon, Blissey, and Snorlax can mindgame past Explosion with Protect though.

Metagross:
Roles:
- Tank
- Pursuit
- Agility
- Checks: Lati@s (soft check), Double Edge Choice Banders, Snorlax, Mewtwo
Metagross @ Choice Band / Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Meteor Mash
- Earthqauke
- Explosion
- Pursuit / Hidden Power Fire

Notes:
- Strong attacker, hard to switch into
- Snorlax, Mewtwo and soft Lati@s check
- Don't forget Pursuit is special in gen 3 - Pursuiting Lati@s normally doesn't get you very far
- CB is preferred but if you want some longevity you can run Leftovers
- 252 HP / 124 Atk / 132 SpD can be used for Leftovers if you want more bulk
- 72 Spe lets you outspeed Jolly Shedinja and Pursuit it before it BPs away

Checks/Counters (all need to watch out for Boom):
- Skarmory (HP Fire in sun is like only thing really)
- Kyogre
- Groudon
- Steelix (watch out for EQ)
- Magneton if it switches into MM

Metagross @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Agility
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Notes:
- Can potentially sweep late game when things Groudon and Kyogre have been weakened
- EVs outspeed neutral Deo-A at +2
- If you can't sweep you can always just go back to what Metagross usually - MM things and exploding on things

Checks/counters (all need to watch out for boom):
- Skarmory
- Kyogre
- Ho-oh
- Groudon
- Steelix

- SubLiechi
- Rock Slide
- Icy Wind/Ice Punch

Steelix:
Roles:
- Physical tank
- Checks: Lati@s (soft check), Rayquaza, Lugia, Snorlax, Metagross, Tyranitar
Steelix @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Double Edge
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Hidden Power Ghost
- Toxic / Explosion

Notes:
- Great physical tank
- Can soft-check Lati@s
- Is a little bit on the weak side as 85 Atk is just on the low end of things, but CB makes it acceptable
- Double Edge is the main move to spam since Flying/Levitate mons are quite common in Ubers

Checks/counters (most need to watch out for Boom):
- Skarmory
- Groudon
- Kyogre
- Ho-oh
- HP Fire Magneton (in the sun, if you don't switch into EQ)
- Steels if you don't switch into EQ
- Gengar - like most mons that run Normal/Ground coverage, Gengar can switch into 3/4 out of Steelix's moves with no problems whatsoever and potentially even into Rock Slide

- RestTalk wall
- Curse

Shedinja:

Roles:
- Wonder Guard for funsies
- Niche check for a lot of things
- Can spinblock
- Checks: Lati@s (non-DD or HP Fire), Kyogre, Mewtwo (without Fire moves), Swift Swimmers (not named Kabutops)
Shedninja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Will-O-Wisp / Protect
- Baton Pass / Protect / Swords Dance

Notes:
- Be very careful when using this for stray super effective hits that will kill you instantly
- If played well you can wall entire teams with this + a couple of support mons, played poorly and it will be absolutely terrible
- Shadow Ball is quite strong, and HP Fighting gives you good coverage
- WoW is for crippling bulkier mons, but Protect is definitely sought after in that 3rd slot to scout your opponent's responses to this
- BP is preferred in last slot simply because it lets you escape Pursuit and potentially Sand Stream
- Make sure to use this with Groudon/Kyogre so you aren't totally wrecked by Tyranitar. Same principle applies for Rapid Spin
- Adamant nature is preferred, but Jolly lets you escape Pursuit from Metagross that don't speed creep

Checks/counters:
- Spikes
- Tyranitar
- Toxic/WoW/Leech Seed
- Shadow Ball/HP Ghost is common enough to kill Shedinja with
- Ho-oh
- Pursuit

Omastar:

Roles:
- Swift Swim sweeper
- Spiker
- Checks: Ho-oh, Lugia, physical Rayquazas, Mewtwo (revenge kill), Snorlax
Omastar @ Leftovers / Mystic Water
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Blizzard / Surf
- Spikes / Toxic

Notes:
- Water/Ice coverage are unfortunately the best Omastar is going to get (HP Grass/Electric is weak af anyway you may as well stick to Hydro Pump)
- If you can weaken Kyogre, this thing can really go to town
- Otherwise, you can use this thing to threaten things out and set up Spikes, or use it to check things like Ho-oh (non-Thunder/CM) and CB Lugia
- Blizzard is preferred over Surf because it lets you 2HKO Latios and frailer Latias, but if you want a more reliable STAB move, Surf is perfectly fine
- Toxic lets you cripple Kyogre switch-ins

Checks/counters:
- Kyogre
- Blissey
- Latias (bulkier variants)
- Rayquaza (mixed)
- Groudon (don't switch in directly unless it's into Spikes)

Kabutops:
Roles:
- Swift Swim sweeper
- Rapid Spin
- Checks: Lugia, Ho-oh, Mewtwo/Deo-A (revenge), Snorlax
Kabutops @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Rock Slide
- Double Edge
- Hidden Power Ground
- Rapid Spin

Notes:
- Double Edge can 3HKO Groudon and is your main spamming move
- Can use to revenge things
- Rapid Spin is quite a rarity in ADV, so it's something to take advantage of.

Checks/counters:
- Groudon
- Steel types (eg Steelix, Metagross)
- Defensive Kyogre
- Rayquaza (mixed)
- Rock types (Tyranitar, Regirock)

- SD Endure/Flail

Registeel:
Roles:
- Curse + Boombot to lure in and take out opposing weather sweepers
- Checks: Lati@s, Lugia, Rayquaza, Double Edge spamming mons
Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 80 Def / 64 SpD
Nature: Impish
- Curse
- Explosion
- Hidden Power Ghost
- Earthquake

Notes:
- Two uses - checking Lati@s (isn't THAT good of a check tbh) and Curse and Exploding on Groudon/Kyogre (whichever one you feel like depending on your team)
- Make sure you don't be too predictable with this - people expect Registeels to try and blow up on their Groudon/Kyogre, so make sure you don't blow up on a Gengar or something like that (or if they have Sub)
- EVs guarantee allow Registeel to Curse at +1 vs 252 Atk Groudon, live another EQ - either they keep staying and you blow up on them, or they switch out and you have a +2/+2 Registeel to deal with
- Cool thing about Registeel is that it doesn't two shits about Magneton, making it quite a cool Steel

Checks/counters (all apart from the Steels risk boom):
- Steelix/Skarmory
- Groudon
- Kyogre
- Ho-oh

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
- Amnesia
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
- Rest

Notes:
- Passive special wall
- Amnesia + Toxic lets you take down pretty much all Lati@s sets apart from Refresh variants
- Use with cleric if possible

Checks/counters:
- Steelix
- Groudon
- Forretress/Skarmory
- Gengar
- CM Jirachi
- Refresh Lati@s


B:
Exeggutor:
Exeggutor @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 120 Atk / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Rash Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- Solar Beam
- Explosion / Hidden Power Fire

Notes:
-136 speed hits 360 which outspeeds max speed base 130s
-Rash to boost spatk power but to also not take away from explosions power
-Rest of evs poured into atk to boost boom
-Sleep powder and stun spore are fairly obvious in what they do, helps cripple the opposing team
-Needs sun support
-HP Fire for Steels - make sure you add 4 Spe because of HP Fire's mandatory 30 Spe IVs

Checks and Counters:
-Kyogre getting rid of sun
-TTar getting rid of sun
-Rayquaza
-Lugia
-Shedinja
-Umbreon
-Deoxys-A
-Bulky Steels


B-:


C:


D:


Unranked:
[/hide]
 
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Minority

Numquam Vincar
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Moderator
Just a review of the S mons for now:


CM + Recover: I'd do a nature slashing of Modest / Timid. Timid ties opposing Lati and Gengar, and outspeeds standard CB Lugia, but that's about it. The extra power of Modest helps a lot for clearing chipped defensive Don / Ogre that want to t wave you and wearing down steels / lax / other special sponges not named Blissey.

CM + 3 Attacks: Using a final slot of Refresh instead of HP Fire is much better and I don't know why only a couple people have caught on to this. Being able to status sponge for offensive squads and avoid the death sentence of a Don / Ogre T Wave is so much more useful than being able to hit Shedinja and certain Steel-types under sun. There is also the issue that HP Fire clashes on rain teams yet remains unslashed and that the non-perfect Speed IV sucks. If you use HP Fire on Latios you use an EV spread of 96 HP / 252 SpA / 160 Spe, so the final slot becomes either Refresh unslashed or Refresh / HP Fire and you have to add this EV spread after main.

4 Attacks: Runs HP Fire unslashed so it has to use 96 HP / 252 SpA / 160 Spe as the EV spread. First move is Dragon Claw unslashed; you don't need Ice Beam because Solarbeam hits Groudon, and HP Fire hits Steelix and Grasses.

Dragon Dance: Best EV Spread is 252 Atk / 100 SpA / 156 Spe / Lonely. 252 Atk / 156 SpA / 100 Spe / Lonely can also work if you need Thunder to have more juice. I elaborated on these spreads previously. Slashing for last move could be Thunder / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam. Thunderbolt is sorta questionable though because I feel like you're rarely using this set on something outside of rain.


CM + Refresh: Moved to first set and renamed to Mono CM because Refresh can be slashed with Roar. The primary EV spread for this is max HP / max Def, although the fast EV spread can be used with Refresh on less defensively oriented teams.

Sub CM: Moved to second set.

Calm Mind + Recover: The reason I moved this down is because it's usually outclassed by Latios in this role so you don't see this set as much. For the same reasons as Latios I'd slash Modest / Timid, although if you're using this you may have Latios in a role where it isn't max, in which case having a max Latias is appealing and Timid works.

Specially Defensive: Mostly taken right from the old analysis, but this is a set that you pretty much never see. I've done some experimenting with SpD Lati sets and can see the appeal, but this might belong in like an "other concepts" tab until it gets developed a bit more.


T Wave + CM: The defensive EV spread also wants Modest as the damage output against Lati, Snorlax, Groudon, and Steels is too low without it. Bold also doesn't allow Ogre's Defense stat reach any critical benchmark.

T Wave + 3 Attacks: Defensive spread should also be the primary EV spread for this set with the offensive one afterwards. Surf becomes first slash over Hydro because of this.

Sub Salac: New set that could be slashed within Sub CM. EV spread is the essentially the same as the bulkier Salac Don set (156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe / Modest). While you do worse against Toxic Toss Blissey by comparison, you can clean Lati switch-ins due to Salac and then have a scary +1 / +1 / +1 Ogre afterwards. Slashing this with the Sub CM set isn't too difficult since the only main changes are a different EV spread and a different item.

Calm Mind + 3 Attacks: Lum Berry should be slashed after Leftovers since it can allow you to blast through non-CM Blissey.

Defensive Toxic / Rest: There should be a Kyogre set here that has a defensive EV spread with a moveset of like Toxic + Protect or some variation of another defensive set that fits CM + Rest for stall breaking purposes. My thoughts on this are likely a bit different than other players like Fireburn, mm2, etc. so this is something that will need to be hammered out in future discussion.


Sub Salac: The 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe / Adamant can be added as a bulkier and more powerful EV spread.

ParaDancer: Looks great outside of the last move slashing. The quad slash is a little ugly, and I really feel that HP Ghost, Double-Edge, and Fire Blast are all niche coverage options that you're going to run only for specialized squads.

Support: Toxic is also a great status choice for support Don because EQ + Fire coverage destroys anything that is immune to it. Slashing it after Thunder Wave works fine.

Choice Band: Has Leftovers listed as the item. I think the last slash should be DE / Overheat / Toxic. While DE doesn't really hit anything specific other than rare Flygon, its a very spamable and effective move from CB Groudon because Steel- and Rock-types don't want to switch in. Overheat is only for Skarm.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Just a review of the S mons for now:Defensive Toxic / Rest: There should be a Kyogre set here that has a defensive EV spread with a moveset of like Toxic + Protect or some variation of another defensive set that fits CM + Rest for stall breaking purposes. My thoughts on this are likely a bit different than other players like Fireburn, mm2, etc. so this is something that will need to be hammered out in future discussion.
CM/Surf/Toxic/Rest is good. Calm Mind lets you take advantage of Toxic as a tool to wear down Latis and force out CM Blissey. Toxic also lets Kyogre beat Shedinja which it wouldn't be able to do normally. I don't think Protect is worth it.

Also get rid of CB Kyogre, it blows.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
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I'll get to the changes a bit later, but just wondering - what does 100 Spe on SubSalac Groudon do? You're looking at 241 Spe, taking you up to 361 Spe at +1, which... ties with Starmie? I guess 360 Spe (96 EVs and +1) outspeed Modest Mewtwo, and all 100 does it speed creep those running 96. Should I just leave it at 96, or drop it down even lower? I'm still going to enforce the speed creep rule in here because the reasons still apply, we're just going to continue creeping until we get to max and lose all meaning of running bulk.
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
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The 100 is 96 Spe but you have 4 EVs left that you can't put in HP (berry) and can't put in Atk (already max). As you said it outspeeds just past Modest Mewtwo and Aero.
 
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shrang

General Kenobi
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So what's the consensus on Defensive Toxic?

EDIT:
Also, I've made most of the changes suggested by MS and Fireburn, although I did deviate slightly (eg Refresh Latios in 2 attacks instead CM + 3). SubSalac Kyogre is in its own set now instead of slashed onto SubCM because they actually play quite differently, while CB has been removed. I'll wait until what the consensus on the Defensive set is for Kyogre.
 
Last edited:

WreckDra

crackling abuser
is a Contributor Alumnus
The 100 is 96 Spe but you have 4 EVs left that you can't put in HP (berry) and can't put in Atk (already max). As you said it outspeeds just past Modest Mewtwo and Aero.
The problem is certain people who run C&C (and the dex by extension) will have a cow if they see extra EVs put in Speed, even if it isn't intentional creep. For C&C purposes, it's probably better for for it to be put in SpD or something even though I personally agree with it being put in Speed. Maybe we can ask them to bend the rules a bit? Maybe?

Anyways here is a Bird:

Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 SpD
Nature: Careful
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Fire
- Recover
- Toxic / Whirlwind

Notes:
This set is a very good secondary eon twin check so long as its team does not give a Latios with Calm Mind and Thunder any set up opportunities without being paralyzed and damaged in the process. What this Ho-Oh does do very well is check anywhere from no bulk to max HP Latias very reliably. Max defense Latias is easier dealt with by other team members due to it sacrificing its great Speed in order to improve its mediocre Defense and HP which are still pretty mediocre with full investment. With this Ho-Oh's Attack investment, Shadow Ball will have a 15/16s chance of dealing 50% or more damage to max HP Latias. The HP and Special Defense investment allow you to avoid any Latias 2HKOes, except Thunder, after Leftovers recovery and allows Ho-Oh to sponge Latios hits a bit more forgivingly. That said, if Latias is carrying Thunder, then you can paralyze it freely with another team member and proceed to deal with the crippled Latias as your team allows. Ho-Oh can even Recover stall a paralyzed Latias with Thunder if that is what it comes down to. Remember that this Ho-Oh's main function is to deal with those pesky Speed invested Calm Mind Refresh-carrying Latias and Latios, everything else is dealt with easier by your team (or that is the way it should be, at least).

Now, what should this Ho-Oh be paired with in order to make it work? The first thing it needs is Thunder Wave on Groudon and to make sure Groudon carries a move like Hidden Power Ghost or Double-Edge in order to hit the Latios hard before it is KOed. Rock Slide is generally not strong enough unless it flinches and you are banking on Latios not carrying Recover if you do this. Groudon is an almost mandatory partner for Ho-Oh just due to its Thunder immunity and sunlight reducing Thunder's accuracy, but Groudon having Thunder Wave and Hidden Power Ghost / Double-Edge make it a much better partner for this Ho-Oh in particular and a few other Ho-Oh sets as well. Given the eon twin centric metagame, a strong attacker that can revenge kill Latias and Latios after damage is advised in case Ho-Oh can only get one Shadow Ball off before being KOed. Rayquaza's ExtremeSpeed, physically biased Deoxys-A, Mewtwo's Self Destruct or Shadow Ball, and Choice Banded Lugia are all good examples of ways to revenge kill eon twins after they take a Shadow Ball from Ho-Oh. Also remember that between Ho-Oh and its mandatory Groudon partner, you have every Steel-type in the game checked and punished which makes revenge killers mentioned before have a stronger place on Ho-Oh's team. A Spikes and Knock Off-carrying Deoxys-D seems odd but it actually works very well if Ho-Oh is running Whirlwind. Knocking off Latios's Soul Dew means Ho-Oh lives a +2 Thunder and can Shadow Ball it in range of the team's revenge killer / cleaner. Spikes make Whirlwind a threat to Kyogre, Groudon, and Forretress who should never be able to Rapid Spin against Ho-Oh if Ho-Oh is used correctly. Forretress can also be used for Spikes but teams that want a Forretress generally prefer having a Choice Banded Ho-Oh just to make sure Kyogre is punished harder. Speaking of which, never forget your Kyogre check when using this Ho-Oh as it can't hit Kyogre nearly as hard as the Choice Band Ho-Oh set. Make sure to have at least one eon twin on your team for this purpose no matter what.

The only moves that are team dependent are Toxic and Whirlwind. Use Toxic if your team does not carry Spikes to punish Kyogre among other Pokemon that switch into Ho-Oh. If you have Spikes on the team, Whirlwind does this more effectively as most Ho-Oh switch-ins are affected by Spikes.

Checks/counters:
Anytime a Kyogre is on the field, Ho-Oh doesn't want to be facing it. This set in particular cannot touch Rest Kyogre and doesn't fair much better against the other sets as they all threaten Ho-Oh with STAB Water-type attacks in the rain.

Rock Slide on faster physical attackers with always be a threat to this Ho-Oh even if the attacker is burned. Most strong physical attackers can pick off a weakened Specially defensive Ho-Oh with strong STAB moves, Double-Edge, or ExtremeSpeed anyways.
___________________


I kinda wrote a novel here, but I believe most of it is fairly important choosing what teams want Ho-Oh, and what teams want Choice Banded Ho-Oh over this thing. I may move this to C&C later even if I don't get a request to do so. The forum is kinda dead at the moment but appears have the occasional visitor. I'l leave it here for now.
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
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The problem is certain people who run C&C (and the dex by extension) will have a cow if they see extra EVs put in Speed, even if it isn't intentional creep. For C&C purposes, it's probably better for for it to be put in SpD or something even though I personally agree with it being put in Speed. Maybe we can ask them to bend the rules a bit? Maybe?
No need. The out is that 100 at +1 ties max Raikou.

Here are some Deoxys-A sets:

Deoxys-A:
Deoxys-Attack @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Ball
- Superpower
- Double-Edge

Notes:
- Spread is self-explanatory
- Extreme Speed is for Rayquaza, opposing Deo-A, weather sweepers, and the odd +1 setup Pokemon
- Shadow Ball is for maximum damage against Lati and Mewtwo, and hits Shedinja
- Superpower is to blow through Snorlax, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Regice, Rock-types, and Steel-types
- Double-Edge has maximum damage output against mostly everything else

Checks and Counters:
- Pursuit
- Defensive Kyogre
- Bulky Groudon
- Jirachi
- Salamence
- Skarmory
- Extreme Speed
- Ghost + Normal-type squads

Deoxys-Attack @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Mild
IVs: 30 HP
- Substitute
- Superpower
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Notes:
- Spread is self-explanatory, except 30 HP IVs are used so that Petaya activates on the 3rd Substitute
- The Spread also wants a SpA+ Nature because it gives the best chance at OHKOing Lati at +1
- Substitute is used to ease prediction when forcing a switch, and is used to activate Petaya
- Superpower breaks several Pokemon that would otherwise wall this set such as Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Umbreon, and Regice
- Boltbeam is superior coverage, Thunder is used of Thunderbolt as you miss critical damage outputs on Ho-Oh, Kyogre, and some other Pokemon without it

Checks and Counters:
- Shedinja
- Bulky Latias
- Jirachi
- Swampert
- Extreme Speed
- Anything with 399 Speed or higher

Deoxys-Attack @ Spell Tag
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Lonely / Hasty
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Ball
- Superpower
- Double-Edge / Fire Punch

Notes:
- Spread is basically the same as CB, but Spell Tag is used to potentially bluff being locked into a move
- Extreme Speed is for Rayquaza, opposing Deo-A, weather sweepers, and the odd +1 setup Pokemon
- Shadow Ball is for maximum damage against Lati and Mewtwo, and hits Shedinja
- Superpower hits Snorlax, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Regice, Rock-types, and Steel-types
- Double-Edge has maximum damage output against mostly everything else
- Fire Punch can be used to destroy Forretress and hit Skarmory hard

Checks and Counters:
- Defensive Kyogre
- Bulky Groudon
- Jirachi
- Salamence
- Most other Pokemon with solid physical bulk
- Extreme Speed
 

shrang

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Okay, I've uploaded MS's Deo-A entries.

WreckDra, can you make that Ho-oh entry a bit briefer please? Dot points would be fine.

Also, I'm thinking about adding 4 more EVs onto the SubSalac 90s - why tie with Raikou when you can outspeed it for 1 more point?
 

shrang

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Okay with help from Minority Suspect, we've finished the A+ mini-analyses! Snorlax, Deo-A, Mewtwo and Blissey now have entries.

Also I'm moving into the A ranking Pokemon and moving slowly down. If I take Rayquaza I'm going to trash the shit out of its fucking face so if you want to stop me doing that you'd better take it before I get there :P
 
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Minority

Numquam Vincar
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The CM Blissey spread should be 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / Calm. Without any SpD investment CM Kyogre blows past you so easily; all it does is setup when you switch in and then you're eating up to 75% from the first pump and then a minimum of 43% from the second pump. You still fare well against Latios so long as Spikes and other residual aren't a long-term factor, but a huge reason of why you run CM Blissey is to be an iron-clad Kyogre counter. The Defense investment can be helpful in certain situations (especially late game, you have some CMs under you, and someone sent in a Groudon or CB user to revenge), but the reality is that in normal play you aren't going to be letting Blissey take a physical attack ever and the utility of being solid against pretty much any viable Kyogre variant is insane.

Also the other Blissey sets shouldn't be running Bold because it's an incredibly inefficient use of EVs and doesn't really meet any important benchmarks (again you shouldn't be keeping this in against physical attacks anyways). You could also make another efficiency argument when it comes to running HP instead of SpD and make the spreads 252 Def / 252 SpD, which is what Blissey has been running in Ubers for the last ten years or so.

Other stuff is good though, thank you for maintaing this project.
 

shrang

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Alright, I've changed Blissey's EVs.

I've also written the A rank mons. I understand some people will not like what I wrote for Rayquaza, but I did give you all the chance to write it before I did. If you want me to change it, give me what needs to be changed specifically and I'll do it accordingly.
 
I mean shouldn't these be a little bit serious... What's the point of being throwing in subjective opinions in analyses that are supposed to be better than the on-site ones? If I wanted people to play the metagame I'd stop and think for a bit, it's such a shame that the quality is fluctuating like this considering what MS contributed with
 
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Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
Nomination for C Rank. If it is a lead it can Pass on to a defensive sweeper like Metagross.

Ninja'd
Ninjask @ Leftovers / Liechi Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / 216 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Silver Wind / HP Bug

Notes:
- The HP stat of 273 is hit with these EVs, allowing 5 uses of Substitute with Leftovers, or 4 uses of Substitute with Liechi Berry, rather than the standard 4 with Leftovers, or 3 without Leftovers. This HP number that lower your HP to 1, after the above Substitute uses and thus gives you another turn.

-Self explanatory: Swords Dance if it is safe, otherwise Substitute until you have a free turn and then either Swords Dance if your Substitute is still intact or Baton Pass.

-Hidden Power/Silver Wind is available in the event of a Taunt, and to finish off foes, since Ninjask likely out speeds them.

Checks/counters:
- Skarmary with Whirlwind is your biggest counter as it resists all of your Stab attacks and can basically neuter your stat boosts by forcing you to switch. The trick is to Baton Pass whatever you have as Skarmary switches in.

- Basically Whirlwind, Trick (Choice Band), Taunt and Roar counter everything except Ninjask can do. If you happen to have a Soundproof Pokemon, Roar is prevented, but that is not likely.

- Anything with Perish Song counters Baton Pass as you pass down on the countdown. Also, strong priority moves can hit Ninjask before using Substitute or before the Baton Pass.

- Having teammates that KO Skarmary such as Magneton can prove invaluable.

- Multi-hit attacks can break the Substitute and hit Ninjask/the recipient afterwards.
 
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p2

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for deo-a, it's definitely worth mentioning rock slide for ho-oh on spell tag sets because double edge can't ohko ho-oh, and if you're using double-edge deo is impaling itself v ho-oh and on you're also not so heavily reliant on prediction. it also does a lot more to salamence compared to sball.

also feel that forretress should have hp bug mentioned somewhere as it's a more consistent offensive move dealing a bunch to latis, though it's pretty situational as it can struggle v bulky latias etc.

also should mention that magneton struggles to trap registeel as it mentions the only problems are steelix/gross.

i might contribute a little more here once uml winds down but those are just some things i noticed.
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
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First time looking at the A rank mons so I have some feedback.

I agree with p2 that Forry should have HP Bug mentioned, but honestly the slashing should probably be HP Bug / HP Ghost / HP Fire. Triple slash is somewhat ugly but acceptable here. The reason HP Bug should be first is because it essentially hits all the common targets of HP Ghost but much harder, where HP Ghost has the benefit of hitting Ghosts for this cost. If you have a Pursuit user then HP Bug becomes really appealing. I also think the nature slashing should be Impish / Careful, reason having to do with efficiency and the high SpD not even meeting the +1 Latios Thunder benchmark (it is in your favor though).

On CB Lugia I've thought that Double-Edge is really a poor move choice because it hits absolutely nothing that Aeroblast doesn't, causes recoil, and is potentially a much worse move to be locked into. However, the last slot on CB Lugia is pretty much useless anyways so I guess it's okay. I do want to point out however that teams that properly support CB Lugia don't need to worry much about Aeroblast PP running out. Other last move techs that are worth using are Whirlwind. For checks and counters I'd add anything that runs Protect because it stalls Lugia's limited PP and makes playing around it much easier since virtually every team has built in Flying-type resists.

Defensive Kyogre is number one CB Ho-Oh check, Regirock hates burns way too much, same with Lugia and Groudon. There are other Rock-types and nichemons that I would consider Ho-Oh checks that aren't listed. HP Flying should be on the set somewhere because it lets you spread damage against a variety of targets without having to incur recoil, CB Ho-Oh gets worn down very quickly when it clicks Double-Edge. Set should probably be like Sacred Fire / Shadow Ball / Earthquake slashed with Double Edge / HP Flying slashed with Double Edge. HP Rock is a mention. CB Ho-Oh can also run a much faster EV spread, like 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe / Adamant which greatly helps against Kyogre and Groudon because they often run creep or Speed for Salac, but don't commonly go 252.

There is a specially defensive Ho-Oh that run Toxic / Sub / Roost. The EV spread is different from the spread WreckDra provided because it doesn't run physical attacks, but its also much more heavily SpD invested than the sub roost set provided. The thing is, the only Lati set that this Ho-Oh doesn't beat is mono Latias, which should usually be running max Def, meaning random Shadow Ball doesn't consistently beat it because you're forced to get lucky with a timely crit. Teams that utilize such a Ho-Oh usually just check mono Lati with another Pokemon anyways. I'd just have two EV spreads for the sub roost set, the SpD spread and the faster spread. I'd also move the CM Ho-Oh set to second position.

There are some alternate EV spreads you can use for CM Rachi but it looks good otherwise. Rayquaza also looks good except Mixed is better than DD, you also have some other item choices for the mixed set like random type power boosting items or Leftovers.
 
Personally, I would add a link to the ADV viability rankings somewhere in the OP for this thread so that users can see all the mons ranked where they are and why. Especially since all the mons here aren't written up yet. Also I wrote up a set for Exeggutor. Hopefully it meets the standards.

Exeggutor:
Exeggutor @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 120 Atk / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Rash Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- Solar Beam
- Explosion

Notes:
-136 speed hits 360 which outspeeds max speed base 130s
-Rash to boost spatk power but to also not take away from explosions power
-Rest of evs poured into atk to boost boom
-Sleep powder and stun spore are fairly obvious in what they do, helps cripple the opposing team
-Needs sun support

Checks and Counters:
-Kyogre getting rid of sun
-TTar getting rid of sun
-Rayquaza
-Lugia
-Shedinja
-Umbreon
-Deoxys-A
-Bulky Steels
 

shrang

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Couple of things before I implement changes:

HP Bug Forry - I'm okay with slashing HP Bug, but I find that it's not very useful in general, so I don't agree it deserves to be slashed first. You deal 0 to the most popular spinblocker with it, which is a huge let down. I guess you do a lot more to Latis, but Forretress is not an ideal counter for Lati@s anyhow. If you really need to clutch check Lati@s with Forretress, you can always explode. It is nicer to have when you have Pursuit support, but you have to consider that this is only a better option when you introduce that support, which means it has a higher opportunity cost automatically.
HP Rock Ho-oh - I never really found the appeal to this tbh. Your only target is opposing Ho-oh, which you're 2HKOing with Double Edge/HP Flying anyway most of the time. Even if Ho-oh is something you have to hit, you can always use Ancientpower, which would end up freeing HP Flying at the very least.
 
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p2

BORN 2 SHIT
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Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 32 Def / 96 SpA / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hypnosis
- Explosion
- Ice Punch
- Will-O-Wisp / Thunderbolt

Notes:
- Gengar is one of 2 viable Ghost-types to use in Ubers, with Shedinja being the other. (idt Dusclops is that relevant but I've seen some of MM2's posts on it). So it's 1 of 2 viable spinblockers.
- Immunity to Spikes, large movepool including status+boom, and the fact that it's not straight up neutered by passive damage helps set it apart from Shedinja
- Speed investment hits neutral-natured base 100s and by extension, Jolly Rayquaza.
- Bulk investment ensures Gengar lives a HP Ghost from 252+ Groudon and can put it to Sleep/Burn it/pick it off with Ice Punch or Boom.
- Remaining EVs put into SpA.
- Leftovers also provides passive recovery and is the only good item on Gengar anyway.
- Hypnosis puts stuff to sleep but is let down by bad accuracy
- Explosion lets Gengar hit special walls like Blissey and Snorlax while putting a decent dent into anything that isn't a Steel- or Ghost-type
- Ice Punch hits Dragons as well as dealing decent damage to Groudon
- Will-O-Wisp can be used as a safer crippling tool, also stopping things like Groudon.
- Thunderbolt isn't that strong but usually deals up to 40% to 252 HP Ogre, while also hitting Ho-Oh harder too.

Checks and Counters:
- Faster Pokemon such as Deoxys-A, Mewtwo, Aerodactyl, +Speed Base 110s can all pick off Gengar. Weather sweepers such as Omastar and Kabutops can also outspeed and deal with Gengar easily.
- Bulky Steel-types such as Registeel, Steelix, Jirachi and Metagross.
- General bulky stuff running around like Kyogre, Ho-Oh, and Lugia can stomach hits fairly well but fear Explosion or Hypnosis.
- Special walls such as Snorlax, Umbreon, Blissey, Latias, and Regice. All fear Explosion and Hypnosis though. Umbreon, Blissey, and Snorlax can mindgame past Explosion with Protect though.


Of course my EV spread might not be optimal, but I find it's quite similar to ADV OU, where it's spread can be tailored to live / creep a load of stuff quite easily.
 

shrang

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Sorry for not updating this, I've been very busy IRL. I should be able to add some more entries in next break (about 4 weeks from now).

p2, I've editted your Gengar set a little bit, but I've added it. If anyone wants to reject/improve it, please say so.
 

shrang

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Alright I've written up everything up to B+ mons apart from Umbreon, which I haven't really used much of. I sort of know what Umbreon is supposed to do, but if someone who knows the mon better than me can write it, that would be awesome.

I also have no idea how you're supposed to use Tyranitar in this metagame, so if someone can write that would be great too.

Otherwise, enjoy the new mini-analyses for the B+ Pokemon - if you have improvements for any of them make sure to speak up.
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
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Hi, I'm here to post some more thoughts on our current listing.

Latios:

I realize that initially we kept the first two sets separate, but I think they should just be merged. There isn't really any difference in them other than running HP Fire, so the final slash can just become Recover / Refresh / HP Fire. Their checks list and notes largely overlap as well so merging them makes sense. 4 Attacks is different enough to keep separate imo.

Latias:

Like Latios the first 2 sets should be merged. They share most of the same checks list and have the same spreads, just make a slashing where there's Refresh / Substitue. Also, CM Sub does not let you beat CM Blissey since when boosting alongside its Ice Beam break the subs. I haven't done the actually probability calculation, but I'd expect that CM Blissey has the advantage due to freeze rate, Lefties, and higher SpD.

Kyogre:
Again I think the first two sets can be merged. They both have the option of going offensive or defensive EV spread and largerly share the same list of checks and notes, just now CM and Thunder are slashed. I guess the set can just be called "Thunder Wave". Update the Salac Berry Kyogre set to 252 HP / 152 SpA / 104 Spe / Modest. The drop in SpA is usually worth being able to create 101 HP Subs because breaking Toxic Toss Blissey with this set is huge.

Blissey:
As previously mentioned the CM set doesn't really lose to Sub CM Lati.

Rayquaza:
For the mixed set Nevermeltice is probably the best item to use because clutch Ice Beam damage. Magnet is also sorta usable. Mixed set is something that you can tailor to a build anyways.

Magneton:
Standard should have Toxic slashed with T Wave: Toxic / T Wave. Metal Sound is required so that you can properly trap and eliminate defensive steels and so you can stallbreak passive stuff that thinks its going to stay in and chip at you. I'd do a slashing of Leftovers / Magnet for the standard set. As for the EV spread I tend to like a bulkier Mag and run creep, but I guess 252 Speed is okay. I don't get the point of the second set and I think Sub is kinda lame on Mag in general. You don't want to be cutting away at your HP with a mon that is slow and has no method of recovery. While Mag can be a scary special attacker, I think Sub Salac is the wrong way to go about it (when you can trap things or break them down with Toxic immune and Metal Sound).

Regice:
Psych Up is mandatory so you don't get overwhelmed by CM mons. Last slot can be Explosion / Rest / status. If you use Explosion you should be running some Atk, like around 120 with a Sassy nature. Even without boom you can go SpD+ with like Calm.

Gengar:
On the standard I'd say slash Shadow Ball before Taunt, since even uninvested you smack Latios pretty hard. Like Mix Rayquaza and Tyranitar, I feel Gengar has a lot of room for customization so writing up something here is hard.

Steelix:
Toxic is a perfectly valid move choice for the least useful slot since it really messes up most Groudon and Kyogre sets, two of your most common switch-ins (also nice because you force away the Toxic immune mons: Steel-types). Worth first slash imo.

Shedinja:

Missing 4 EVs. I'd say Adamant is the preferred nature, not sure why you're going max with a mon that has base 40 Speed. Guess you're trying to creep Pursuit Metagross so you can BP away, but that can still beat you with a small amount of investment. I guess just mention to people that Jolly is for using with BP and why.

Omastar:

Again I'd say random Toxic after Blizzard / Surf is perfectly acceptable. I'd slash Mystic Water before Nevermeltice because it gets good KOs against Mewtwo and Lugia. Probably some others too but that's all I remember atm.

Registeel:
Right now I think the best Curse Registeel EV spread is 252 HP / 112 Atk / 80 Def / 64 SpD / Impish. This isn't what Fireburn had on his Registeel RMT, but this meets important benchmarks against Groudon (how you trade vs. it) and Lati. Another usable set is Amnesia + Toxic + S Toss. It's very passive, but it gives you something more secure against certain CM users and still has the hallmarks of a defensive Steel.
 

shrang

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Okay I implemented most of those changes. I'll add Amnesia Registeel a bit later.

A few things I disagree about:

SubCM Latias vs CM Blissey:
- With 252 HP / 0 SpD, Latias has ~50/50 chance of having its Sub broken by Ice Beam (23.63% - 28.02%) with broken Sub being slightly more likely (mean is 25.27%), assuming both Pokemon are boosted by the same amount. This is assuming Modest Blissey. For every Recover, Latias can approximately make 1 free Sub before it has to Recover again. From 100%, Latias can make 4 Subs. Assuming Blissey has 16/16 Ice Beams, both are at 100%, and Blissey breaks every Sub Latias makes in one hit, she will have to either get a freeze/crit with 6 available Ice Beams (4 free Subs from 100% Latias, 6/12 are hitting Subs after Latias Recovers) before she gets PP stalled out of Ice Beams. I guess you can try and score Thunder para as Latias Recovers, but IMO the odds are still against you.
- This is assuming we are using 252/0, I just worked out you can actually make it so that Latias' Sub always lives an Ice Beam from max SpA Modest Blissey by just using 20 SpD EVs and a Calm nature. This DOES let you get OHKOed by +2 SubSalac Donner's HP Ghost (I think), but it will guarantee that Latias will always beat CM Blisseyunless you fail to crit ANY of your Dragon Claws :'(

Nevermeltice Rayquaza: The only thing I can see Nevermeltice getting is a 99% chance to 2HKO 252/252+ Groudon after Leftovers as opposed to 40% (which from my experience the Groudons that you need to check most are more of the max HP/close to min SpD variety, which Nevermeltice doesn't help OHKO). I'd personally rather be able to Ice Beam Groudon for free when they try to Thunder Wave me rather than doing about 7% extra damage. Do you have any other significant KOs that Nevermeltice gets? I'll still slash it in, but I definitely prefer Lum Berry.

Suggested Registeel EV spread: What are the benchmarks that it hits? Tbh I haven't really looked that hard into Registeel spreads, but the one I came up with was the minimum requirement to OHKO 252/0 Groudon with +1 Explosion, so I'm assuming any less attack would fail to do so.
 
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Minority

Numquam Vincar
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If Sub CM Latias has a turn lead on CM Blissey ya, it'll be especially difficult for Blissey to win, but Latias doesn't clearly win either has to resort to PP stalling. Lati has the advantage because of Claw crits, but the situation could end with a 0 PP Ice Beam Blissey and a 0 PP Dragon Claw Latias if it just doesn't get a crit. You're right, CM Blissey doesn't really beat Sub CM Latias. Not sure if I'm confident enough to say that Sub CM Latias beats CM Blissey though. I guess if your best shot at winning is by forcing a CM war with Sub Lati against a CM Blissey, go for it.

The Registeel EV spread is so that you tank a 252+ Atk Groudon Earthquake when it switches into Curse followed by another Earthquake when at +2. If Groudon decides to stay in after the first EQ you can boom and OHKO it. If it switches you're at +2 / +2 and about 60% HP.
 

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