Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
As this ladder is temporary, feel free to jump right in and begin playing. There are several sample teams in the resource list above to help you get started. This thread should be your go-to place for discussion about the tier; feel free to post replays and discuss the metagame in general.
Please note that it appears that NFEs ARE allowed on this ladder; traditionally they are banned in Gen 3 UU, with the exception of Scyther (though they are allowed in Gen 3 NU). However, Kadabra and Chansey are BL. I don't foresee this causing too many problems; UU recently ran a Gen 3 UU tour where these were allowed, and while Trapinch and Haunter had small niches, they didn't make much of a splash.
What are you looking forward to seeing on this ladder? What are your impressions so far? Is Kangaskhan still the best 'mon ever? Share your thoughts here!
the best tier..
basically scyther and kanga r gods and if u don`t use em ur fuckin up(kanga moreso than scyther)
anyway a cool mon to try out is stantler. I put it on a meme team at first but it`s actually not bad at all, has the same atk stat as kanga actually. I tried this thing out because i realized it`s imo a superior set to sing kanga(another thing i tried in uupl, game can be found here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-170289) due to intimidate forcing switches(altho its slower). I generally like it as a lead mon cuz of intimidate+the fact that u can probably kill omastar without hazards on ur field if u get lucky sleep rolls. heres the set-
Stantler @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe(outspeeds fat kanga)
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Hypnosis
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball
since slowbro, unlike in the uu/bl tour, is not allowed in this format, there's this unbelievably sick underrated mon to take its place (not quite but close enough):
no idea what the evs do this team is old but they've been working. trades 1 on 1 at worst with most pokemon in the tier, amazing check to special threats not called vileplume/electrics (think walrein/ninetales/sweeping non bp lunatone/omastar/rain in general which this thing basically completely shuts down. also ok vs tentacruel although mixed with sbomb 2hkos at +2 and u dont ohko back), ridiculously difficult to switch into with spikes up because it just hits so damn hard. altaria can kinda take it on with rest and hypno has a chance to keep up even with spikes down if you're facing wish + protect, but it's extremely shaky especially if u have something to abuse free hypno switches a la sub kanga or cb scyther.
slowking really eats all those standard teams with vileplume or hypno as their general "special attacker insurance" right up with basically just spikes. omastar actually pairs surprisingly well with this thing despite the shared weaknesses just bc physdef oma eats pretty much every non stab + SE physical hit while this guy does the same for special hits. grass/elec weakness overlap is obviously an issue but not too hard to fix with stuff like spdef kanga (which enjoys spikes a lot too and keeps the two healthy, assuming u dont wanna abuse spikes + sub kanga), muk, vileplume/cradily, hypno, and a lot of other stuff really. just be creative i guess. other moves are toxic over twave to fuck with hypno, although twave has been ridic clutch for me catching stuff such as scyther while eating 1 hit with ease to neuter it, and like ice beam > twave if you really want to counter altaria, but protect is incredibly useful and really shouldn't be replaced, tons of free lefties recovery + scouting potential. make something of it, slowking's just pretty damn great all around.
So I figure now is as good a time to bring this up as any, since there's more attention on this tier than usual.
The elephant in the room is that BL is absolutely massive. The somewhat recent UU/BL tour Hogg hosted brought to light some interesting and very balanced additions to the metagame such as Slowbro, Venusaur, and Swellow. I know PP is working on establishing ADV 2U, except that they, naturally, ignored BL entirely, simply banned a handful of mons like Zam, Espeon, and Slaking after a bit of testing and pretty much started from scratch. I'm not suggesting moving forward with such an extreme approach, just presenting one end of the spectrum.
My question, then, is this: do we think that it's worthwhile to test some of these BL mons in UU? If so, how would the suspect process work? Additionally, is it worthwhile to make official and permanent the inclusion of NFEs after this ladder goes down (I personally think disallowing NFEs, especially ONLY in UU while NU gets to use Haunter and Metang, is silly, but maybe that's just me)? I might also very well be the only person who thinks this is worth looking into, and if that's the case, feel free to shoot me down.
I've talked to Hogg/ict about this on Skype a while ago, so I'll pretty much just repeat here what I told them I think.
Basically, I'd love for this to happen in some way! Not just the mons we dropped down (minus Rhydon and, to a lesser degree, Machamp because they're busted), but a wide variety of BL mons. The issues with this are obviously altering a "dead" metagame that people are accustomied to playing this way which, I guess, shouldn't really be an argument, and not really having the playerbase to do this. I'd be totally up to do this with a few people if we got enough people willing to do this and I guess the "go" to alter what is pretty much a dead tier, because I think stuff like Swellow and Slowbro actually massively enriched the metagame. Venusaur is a shakier case because it's actually a pretty decent Pokemon in OU, so dropping it down again despite its official status being BL would kinda just open the door for us to drop everything we want, and I honestly don't think that sets a good precedent.
Either way, NFEs should most definitely be allowed because all of them are pretty bad (Haunter is just so much worse in practice than on paper and it's arguably the most usable NFE), so I'm glad this is implemented at least. We should probably update the VR rankings to reflect this since this is the "official" implementation and people might not even be aware they're allowed...?
But yea if we got some kind of general "go" to modify some old, lower tier and the playerbase to do it I'd definitely be down, but that's a lot of ifs really :(
So I figure now is as good a time to bring this up as any, since there's more attention on this tier than usual.
The elephant in the room is that BL is absolutely massive. The somewhat recent UU/BL tour Hogg hosted brought to light some interesting and very balanced additions to the metagame such as Slowbro, Venusaur, and Swellow. I know PP is working on establishing ADV 2U, except that they, naturally, ignored BL entirely, simply banned a handful of mons like Zam, Espeon, and Slaking after a bit of testing and pretty much started from scratch. I'm not suggesting moving forward with such an extreme approach, just presenting one end of the spectrum.
My question, then, is this: do we think that it's worthwhile to test some of these BL mons in UU? If so, how would the suspect process work? Additionally, is it worthwhile to make official and permanent the inclusion of NFEs after this ladder goes down (I personally think disallowing NFEs, especially ONLY in UU while NU gets to use Haunter and Metang, is silly, but maybe that's just me)? I might also very well be the only person who thinks this is worth looking into, and if that's the case, feel free to shoot me down.
For reference, ADV BL has 49 mons in it. ORAS OU (a generation in which there are roughly twice as many available mons as there are in ADV) has 53 mons, so that's almost a tier-sized banlist. (I didn't count Keldeo/Keldeo-R as two separate things because there's no difference and they're tiered/counted together, so whatever.) That's 13% of all mons available in ADV. (13/386.) If you take out the junk mons from that 386 count (stuff like Caterpie, Weedle, Kakuna, Metapod, etc. that would never deserve to be tiered in any sort of reality), I'm assuming that 13% would actually jump to higher percentage. That's... a sizeable chunk of mons stranded in a place which doesn't feature into any sort of tournament, or, really, have much playability. (Because OU goes into all the classic tournaments and UU at least has this ladder, UUPL, etc.)
Of course, some of those mons (Alakazam, Dragonite) would most likely be too much if you dropped them, but numerous other mons dropping at the same time may (or may not idk) balance each other out?
And the exclusion of NFEs in UU (and not even NU/OU) sounds like a really outdated policy that wouldn't happen today if we were freshly making the tier. Like, I remember seeing something about that once when just digging around on ADV and was like, "O..... kayyy?"
Idk, I'm just a casual player, but I really like ADV, so just throwing my opinion in.
I've been considering revamping adv uu for quite a while but there wasnt enough activity to warrant the change. However with the addition of the rotational tours, we have a big opportunity to finally change this tier for the better. The current tier while decent in its own right, is very outdated and in need of an update. This can be seen from the huge list of bl mons that are stuck there because of the old tiering system we used to use. Many of them are never seen in standard play and it really does a disservice to them. There was a tour called the Advance UnderUsed Revamped which shows how this revamp is a positive change for ADV UU.
As for what pokemon should probably drop from OU/BL to UU are the following:
Arcanine
Armaldo
Articuno
Cloyster
Crobat
Dodrio
Donphan
Dragonite
Dusclops
Entei
Gardevoir
Houndoom
Jumpluff
Jynx
Lanturn
Lapras
Miltank
Moltres
Sceptile
Scizor
Slowbro
Steelix
Swellow
Tauros
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Vaporeon
Venusaur
Weezing
Zangoose
and other NFE's
The following mons could use testing before being allowed in UU:
Blaziken
Breloom
Chansey
Charizard
Exeggutor
Hariyama
Kadabra
Ludicolo
Marowak
Regirock
Registeel
Slaking
And finally the following mons should remain in BL:
Alakazam
Espeon
Kingdra
Machamp
Medicham
Ninjask
Rhydon
Smeargle
Of course, there is room for change from this list through discussion and as an alternative, we could use pokemon perfect's ADV 2U as a template since they did a good amount of the work for us.
Now I know the current adv uu meta has been the way it was for quite a while and some of you enjoyed it just the way it is so I also think that the current tiering should be saved as an alternate uu tier so players can still play it for years to come. So lets make this happen!
ive gotten into this tier a fair bit over the course of 2 days so ill post my thoughts
- sableye is really fucking good on more defensively oriented teams, and i'd argue its better as a spinblocker than missy. knock off + stoss is really fucking threatening when coupled with spikes which you should always have since oma is probably the 3rd best mon in the meta (honestly i think its better than hypno but i havent used it enough to get a good opinion on it). the speed sucks but it's surprisingly bulky, as with max defense you take like 45 max from cb kanga's eq, although the only problem with this is that blastoise becomes really annoying without any spd investment...then again stoise is easy to wear down and sable fucks with the 2 main wishpassers in the tier so there's that. honestly i think virtually any semistall looking for a spinblocker should use sable over missy. hell u could probably use sheddy since apparently thats a threat
- seconding cbb on slowking, although i used a different set in cm dual stab rest. checks a lot of the meta and takes advantage of more passive squads. the psychic typing kinda sucks since it makes you susceptible to a lot of things, but i guess it makes it a better answer to lunatone / solrock
- ampharos, like sable, is a p underrated threat on defensive teams. electric stab is really strong in a meta where waters are everywhere and most teams rely on bulk to deal with elecs since amph is surprisingly strong, and having a heal beller that isnt passive and being able to directly threaten omastar / tenta to an extent makes it worth using over other clerics like altaria granbull and plume kind of
- type spam is something ive been wanting to try out. normal spam with kanga + cb granbull / fearow, electrode + electabuzz (maybe manec over one of the two maybe? iunno i dont see much reason to use it over either aside from crunch i guess but it doesnt even do that much to hypno), rd oma + gorebyss + tenta all seem really good at pressuring usual bulky offensive / balance teams and rain just fucks shit up. gorebyss is probably one of the best lategame cleaners in this meta, and defensive teams have to rely on things like slowking / lanturn or wish stalling with kanga / hypno to outlast rain which is a little unreliable lol
- been wanting to try out sandslash as well, sd eq rock slide counter and base 100 atk seems pretty antimeta
- cm pass (mainly through lunatone) is a really good strat. lunatone / solrock are good sweepers on their own but passing to things like special tenta ninetales electabuzz and shiftry makes it a pretty reliable strat especially considering how the passers have the bulk to bp without too much trouble anyway. i mainly used a team hogg made for this on the ladder and it worked out pretty nicely
- hp grass is a p NeatTech on most things since oma is such a big threat, running hp grass lunatone or on ur own omastar will put you in a rly good spot since most teams rely on oma as their normal check and preventing spikes from going down on ur field gives you so much breathing room
i only made 2 teams of my own although ill prob make some more in the future. this is prob my fav one
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Ability: Early Bird
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Frustration
- Toxic
- Protect
- Wish
Muk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Def / 152 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Ice Punch
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Explosion
Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Rest
Hitmontop @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Toxic
- Brick Break
i had originally built this with the intention of using sub punch kanga but after playing some games i decided to go with wish instead, since it isnt as awkward of a fit and wish is almost mandatory on these kind of teams. nothing too complex about this team, but slowking + kanga + oma is a pretty solid core that is easy to support and takes on most of the meta well. altaria fits nicely with slowking as well since king can rest up, and then alt can come in and heal bell it off fairly easily since it has a stupid amount of bulk. there are times where i wish i had toxic over ice beam but having it is necessary since cb gligar fucks me otherwise, and roar is pretty valuable here even if i have roar on kanga as well. muk is just kind of a blanket check to everything, since its fairly strong and has the bulk to chew a suprising amount of atks. hitmontop is just so i dont get fucked by hazards, although having a second normal switch in is always appreciated.
----------
in regards to ur list Typhlito, as much as i really wanna see a lot of these mons getting usage, i think letting a majority of them drop is a bad idea. having mons like ursaring vaporeon dusclops dnite blaziken zard etc in the tier would just make it unbalanced as fuck. i get that making the tier fresh is a good idea and all and i defo want that, but id rather not have it be out of control
the best way to go regarding drops would probably be the mons that were allowed in the revamped tournament barring rhydon and machamp, as well as kadabra definitely. yama / ludi / regirock could also work maybe but those are a little more iffy, especially regirock imo (it checks a fuck ton of the meta and cb sets have pretty shaky switch-ins, and curse would be probably a staple wincon on stall, but on the other hand waters are everywhere in this meta so idk).
this also isn't taking into account that some of the mons in bl like venu, molt, and lix get a decent amount of usage in tours that might be enough for them to be raised into ou, even if usage stats aren't really a thing in old gens in terms of raises / drops
Typhlito, your list has a good amount of mons that are just absolutely way too wild to allow in UU. I understand there's not really "usage" to tier by, so its a bit subjective when and where we draw the line, but mons like Blaziken and Slaking shouldn't even come close to being tested, while Dragonite, Donphan and Moltres (just to pick a few) would be insane as well.
Like I said, the list can easily be changed. You could make a whole new list if you want. I could have been a bit bold with my listing however you guys never tried the meta with these pokemon in it. No way to really know if it would be unbalanced without tests being done. Also if its being done, no point of only doing it half way and release just a couple pokemon. Would it change the meta drastically? Definitely but its worth it. Also, pp's 2u gives us some good information on how this meta can and should potentially look like. Their data should be utilized since they actually got to test some of these pokemon you are not sure about. I truly think this change will be good for uu since the meta was based off a system that only really made sense in standard play. Too many pokemon recieved the short end of the stick for too long. People are finally getting more access to play this meta through the extra exposure. I just dont see a good reason why this shouldnt be done other than the nostalgia of a meta thats been like this for a very long time.
So like, I know Typhlito's list isn't perfect, but are there any uncontested mons between you guys in charge of the tiering? We're already about a quarter of the way through the month, so if you guys are actually serious about considering drops, wouldn't now be better than springing them at the end of the ladder's life? Like even stuff like Dusclops, Weezing, Armaldo, etc.?
This tier is one of my favorites of all time. I thoroughly enjoy both playing it and casting it on my YT channel. As others have mentioned, Kangaroo might be a little too good, but not to the point where it is oppressive, and it's otherwise a reasonably balanced and diverse tier. It has a few quirks, certainly. For example, with no TTar and therefore no permasand, Endure/Reversal strategies and even weather-based strategies are quite viable here. Quick Attack and Mach Punch are even a thing here specifically to combat Reversal. Some people even use Sharpedo for its trait!
If anyone has a really good game (or multiple) in this tier while this is going on please do upload them to Showdown replays and link me via private message. I'll likely put em on YT. :)
This tier is one of my favorites of all time. I thoroughly enjoy both playing it and casting it on my YT channel. As others have mentioned, Kangaroo might be a little too good, but not to the point where it is oppressive, and it's otherwise a reasonably balanced and diverse tier. It has a few quirks, certainly. For example, with no TTar and therefore no permasand, Endure/Reversal strategies and even weather-based strategies are quite viable here. Quick Attack and Mach Punch are even a thing here specifically to combat Reversal. Some people even use Sharpedo for its trait!
If anyone has a really good game (or multiple) in this tier while this is going on please do upload them to Showdown replays and link me via private message. I'll likely put em on YT. :)
so reading over this, seems like I may be beating a dead horse, however I must ask.
Why is BL so large? Less interested in why we're keeping it that way than how it got that way in the first place. Was stuff just chosen to be there? Usage stats started being used in gen IV if i remember correctly so i'd be interested to learn the history
so reading over this, seems like I may be beating a dead horse, however I must ask.
Why is BL so large? Less interested in why we're keeping it that way than how it got that way in the first place. Was stuff just chosen to be there? Usage stats started being used in gen IV if i remember correctly so i'd be interested to learn the history
Before usage stats, the tiers were determined by a "best guess" method. Things that were not quite good enough to be considered OU, but were guestimated to be too strong for UU were put in BL, they were "borderline OU". There was also some stuff about BL dropdown tourneys and stuff where you could use 1 or 2 BLs on a UU team. I don't know that that had an influence on the pokemon that were chosen to be put in BL in the first place but ya. The creation of a large BL also happened in DP before Doug and xact made usage stats a thing.
Why it's so large is hard to say, but I would say many, if not all, of the pokemon in ADV's BL, most are somewhat OU viable, which I think had something to do with it.
