Gen 3 ADV UU Viability Rankings

Oglemi

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S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the UU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Top:
  • Hypno
  • Kangaskhan
Mid:
  • Lunatone
Low:
  • Gligar
  • Solrock
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the UU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

Top:
  • Cradily
  • Fearow
  • Grumpig
  • Hitmonlee
  • Misdreavus
  • Nidoking
  • Omastar
  • Scyther
  • Tentacruel
  • Walrein
Mid:
  • Aggron
  • Blastoise
  • Granbull
  • Hitmontop
  • Lanturn
  • Sharpedo
Low:
  • Altaria
  • Camerupt
  • Clefable
  • Electabuzz
  • Electrode
  • Feraligatr
  • Golem
  • Kabutops
  • Manectric
  • Muk
  • Ninetales
  • Pinsir
  • Vileplume
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the UU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

Top:
  • Exploud
  • Golduck
  • Meganium
  • Poliwrath
  • Quagsire
  • Qwilfish
  • Sandslash
  • Shedinja
  • Shiftry
  • Slowking
  • Victreebel
Mid:
  • Banette
  • Mantine
  • Nidoqueen
  • Primeape
  • Raichu
Low:
  • Ampharos
  • Azumarill
  • Glalie
  • Gorebyss
  • Mr. Mime
  • Politoed
  • Rapidash
  • Sableye
  • Xatu

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the UU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in UU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Top:
  • Absol
  • Girafarig
  • Linoone
  • Magmar
  • Persian
  • Sneasel
  • Stantler
Mid:
  • Arbok
  • Cacturne
  • Flareon
  • Mawile
Low:
  • Octillery
  • Raticate
  • Relicanth
  • Roselia
  • Torkoal
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are below average in the UU metagame. These Pokemon often require very significant amounts of support with a relatively low reward compared to higher ranked Pokemon.


Top:

Mid:

Low:


Untested Rank: Reserved for pokemon that might have niches, but havent been sufficiently tested. Post your experiences with them here so we can give them a tier.
and now onto: THE RULES.

~Rules~
~Only nominate viable Pokemon. We are not going to put every legal Pokemon in UU on the list. There is no reason to put stuff that no one will ever use.
~Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
~No flaming
~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL smogon tier lists.
~Only pokemon in UU are up for nomination, pokemon in higher tiers are not allowed to be nominated.
 
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walrein could probably drop to a or a- imo. being a water type thats weak to rock really blows, faces competition with blastoise and tenta, who both have spin and a better typing, totally weak to electrics, and has a bad matchup against a good part of s-a ranks. i mean its still decent because STAB on ice beam lets it get past vileplume and altaria easier, than other waters, and curse sets can be fun but thats kinda :/ imo. walrein is cool forsure but i really dont think its as good as the other waters. so yeah down with walrein

nidoqueen should move down to b/b-. its added bulk doesnt really help it much considering its crummy defensive typing, and what it does check can easily wear it down due to its lack of recovery. nidoqueen has notable drop in power from nidoking, who can break thru the spacerocks a lot easier with megahorn, and has the added bonus of being able to actually outspeed and pop adamant gligar with an ice beam. like yeah the extra bulk of queen is cool and lets it check electrics better but its a shaky one at best, or atleast compared to mons like lanturn. queen is bad lol

huntail is totally trash, totally outclassed by gorebyss and omastar. pls unrank
theres also meganium in both b+ and b
 

cookie

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blastoise's utility (and place above walrein) depends on how stall-oriented the metagame is. High stall = rapid spin is more useful, and blastoise's lack of offense matters less. More offense = who cares about spikes and walrein's second stab makes it much harder to set up on, it makes it harder for non-waters to switch in on it. It also hits a bit harder on the special side overall. Basically they should be on the same ranking
 

Hogg

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I'm at work, so I'll probably give some more detailed thoughts down the road, but for starters...

Feraligatr should move down, IMO. Almost every one of its niches is usually better filled elsewhere (Poliwrath gets more opportunities to pull off SubPunch thanks to Water Absorb and STAB Focus Punch, SD sweeper pretty solidly outclassed by stuff like Druidcruel, etc.). I don't think its usefulness comes anywhere near things that are sharing its rank like Omastar, Lanturn, Hitomntop or Aggron.

Grumpig is solid but I don't think it quite deserves high A ranks. If Hypno and Lunatone didn't exist then sure, it would get a ton of play, but Hypno in particular has better overall bulk and far superior movepool, which means that it's so hard to easily find a slot for the Pig. Bleh, I hate trashing a pokemon's viability solely because another 'mon is more viable, but in this particular tier I think that there is a real opportunity cost to not running Hypno, which is unarguably the overall most useful 'mon in the tier.

Muk absolutely deserves low or even mid-As. It's one of the best leads, it has a phenomenal movepool, above average bulk, a really cool physical STAB in a tier with almost no Steel types, and Explosion off of base 105 attack hurts. In particular its mixed and Curse + Explosion sets are really hard to deal with for most of the tier. While the prevalence of bulky Psychics would seem like it would hinder Muk, none of them bar Solrock want to take an Explosion, and Muk can pretty much always tank a boosted Psychic (Hypno's +1 Psychic only does 54-64%).

Slowking can probably move up to high Bs. He has better bulk and defensive typing than most CM sweepers, and his RestTalk set is a nice switch-in to almost every Lunatone set.

Clefable should move up to low As, in my opinion. It is easily one of the best support 'mons in the tier, and the sheer number of options it has are outstanding. In particular, it beats almost every setup sweeper with Encore or T-Wave and fantastic bulk (to put things into perspective, even with a mixed defensive spread and three layers of Spikes down it can tank Adamant Gligar's +2 EQ and Encore it or OHKO it with Ice Beam). Also, it has significantly higher HP than any other Wishpasser bar Kanga. While its other sets mostly feel a bit gimmicky, Clefable is still one of the most reliable 'mons in the tier and can act as glue for a wide variety of teams.

Sandslash should probably be mid or high Bs. While Gligar outclasses the hell out of it as a sweeper, Rapid Spin is definitely a useful niche. In particular its Swords Dance/EQ/HP Ghost/Rapid Spin set is nice for pulling double duty - it's a spinner that can punch through every spinblocker barring the rare Imprison Misdreavus, while it can also set up on physical threats like Golem or Solrock and sweep. (HP Ghost is a guaranteed OHKO at +2, while Missy's HP Ice is only a 3HKO after Lefties unless Modest).

I have literally never seen a reason to use Hitmonchan in UU and honestly have no idea why it's even ranked. Like seriously, I don't know if I'm just dumb or what, I cannot think of a single reason why I would ever use it over Hitmonlee or Hitmontop or Primeape (the latter of which isn't even ranked). OK I must be blind - I swear I CTRL+F'd for Primeape before writing that. Anyhow, the point still stands, and Hitmonchan is bad.

EDIT: Also I really don't like Raichu being in the same grouping as the other electrics - Surf and Encore are cool moves, but aren't worth the lower Speed tier and Special Attack as compared to Buzz/Manectric. An electric in the tier needs to be able to reliably beat Fearow and Tentacruel, and the fact that Raichu at best Speed ties with them and unlike Ampharos can't tank a hit means it just isn't in the same class as the others. Not sure whether I think Manectric/Buzz/Electrode should move up or Raichu should move down, but I'm more inclined toward the latter.
 
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I'd would like to nominate Haunter to C rank. Haunter, while not a common mon by any stretch of imagination in ADV UU, has a pretty clear target in what it does. Though it competes with Misdreavus for a spin-blocking role, and is less defensively oriented, it offers a better offensive presence and can be used to spread more damage generally. Haunter's higher speed also allows it to attack before being revenged at lower healths.

An interesting set I ran during UUPL (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-51512) was Sub-Salac-Tbolt-Psychic-Dbond. Tbolt and Psychic are aimed at Hitmontop and Blastoise, obviously, able to 2HKO both of the most prominent spinners in the tier (something Misdreavus cannot do without setting up). Salac + Dbond allows Haunter to take out any threats the opposing team have that may be faster, so Electabuzz is the main target there if you get to Salac range, or you can use it against slower mons that may be tough for your team to break otherwise. Additionally, Haunter's sub is not able to be broken by cleric Vileplume, so you'll win 1v1 vs that and likely with a sub intact.

Downsides to Haunter include lack of any real damage on non-SE hits and a major frailty compared to most other ADV UU staples. Still, the ability to sometimes take out an annoying mon as well as spinblock against teams that use very common spinners is pretty great. The downsides often mean a team will be better served with Missy, but overall I think Haunter has a niche in ADV UU.

edit: Also please ignore that I choked and Tbolted with Haunter on Missy in the replay, I should've Dbonded 100% and taken it out right away. Would've saved me an additional headache later.
 

Oglemi

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Something something we don't tier NFEs something something decision back in 2004
 

Hogg

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Haunter and all other nfes apart from scyther are illegal in classic uu play
Its been a very long time, but wasn't Vigoroth allowed in UU? Or am I misremembering? Also odd that Kadabra was specifically made BL if this was the case.

EDIT: To stay on topic, I think that a case could be made for Ninetales and Vileplume moving up, and Shiftry/Exploud moving down. I'll write up more detailed thoughts on the matter when I get home.
 

Merritt

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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nfes-in-uu.43157/

Granted this is in relation to DPP UU, but you can use a lot of the same arguments that were made there for an unbanning of many NFEs. I don't exactly play ADV UU much (read: at all) but is there any reason other than "tradition" to keeping NFEs banned? It's already being slightly broken with Scyther being allowed, the point that it's very different than scizor being talked about by David Stone in that thread.

Sure there's no great impetus to change, but is there a really good reason not to?
 

Oglemi

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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nfes-in-uu.43157/

Granted this is in relation to DPP UU, but you can use a lot of the same arguments that were made there for an unbanning of many NFEs. I don't exactly play ADV UU much (read: at all) but is there any reason other than "tradition" to keeping NFEs banned? It's already being slightly broken with Scyther being allowed, the point that it's very different than scizor being talked about by David Stone in that thread.

Sure there's no great impetus to change, but is there a really good reason not to?
The good reason being ADV UU is pretty (much entirely) dead atm and doing any tiering changes like that when all of the people that play it are used to one ruleset is completely unnecessary. ADV NU was a different case because it wasn't played p. much ever and without a consistent ruleset, ADV UU has had the same ruleset since its inception afaik and was heavily played back in its heyday (with a subcommunity dedicated solely to it in the IRC channel #uusf).
 

CrashinBoomBang

MEIN BIZEPS BRENNT PERMANENT amk
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i know this is dead but Oglemi gave me permission to post like a week ago so #flexmcgee #stuntordie

I think Kangaskhan should move up to the top of the rankings. In the current metagame, at least from what I have experienced, there is almost no reason not to use Kangaskhan, even if I'm probably biased towards it. There's just nothing else in the tier that's as bulky AND fast AND strong as it all at once, and it can honestly fit on every team from offense to bulkier stuff to all-out stall thanks to its multitude of sets. CB, Wish 3 Attacks, Rest, SubPunch, they all have their uses and stuff like SubPunch in particular lets it beat some of its better initial switchins (Cradily), meaning Kanga really has no true counters. CB Kanga by itself means that you won't get far without a solid normal resist just because it hits so damn hard and is faster than every defensive Pokemon and even most offensive ones like Nidoking, Hitmonlee, or Gligar, not to mention that it's bulky enough to basically 1v1 every single Pokemon in the tier. Hypno is a great defensive anchor, without a doubt, not to mention that CM + BP is a huge threat to every team at every time basically, but it doesn't have this "feel" to it that Kangaskhan has to me, where not using it feels like it puts me at an immediate disadvantage, regardless of the set.

If it was up to me I'd probably make Kangaskhan the solitary Top S rank (and move Hypno down to chill with Lunatone), but at the very least I want to see Kangaskhan all the way up there. In too many cases it's just too great at literally everything to not use it.
 

Hogg

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I think Hypno and Kanga should share the top slot, personally. Hypno is just as versatile and threatening, though in different ways, and together they are the most defining 'mons of the tier. So yeah, move Kanga up but don't move Hypno down.

Also Scyther should probably be top As - it is functionally tied as the fastest 'mon in the meta bar Electrode with Swords Dance and STAB bug attacks to break the bulky Psychics that define the tier, and it has a ton of great sets. In particular, I've been having a ton of success lately with offensive SD - SD/AA/HP Ground and either Silver Wind or Baton Pass in the last slot. It is crazy how threatening it is right now (especially with the threat of BP to pass out its boosts).

Finally, I don't know if it's just me, but Blastoise has been really underwhelming lately. It just sits around being fat and getting spinblocked by everything. It's just so hard to justify a team slot when Omastar's typing and bulk gives you a much needed Normal resist while Walrein is a million times less passive. Not sure if it's worth dropping a slot, but it just hasn't been doing it for me.
 

CrashinBoomBang

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I'm fine with keeping Hypno up there for what it's worth, as long as Kangaskhan moves up it's still totally fine.

I tend to agree with the Scyther nom, I've been using it a lot lately just because it naturally fits so well on offensive teams because of not only its speed (faster than Tentacruel is awesome), but also sweeping potential via SD or even just breaking stuff wide open with CB. It also has some other useful stuff on the CB set in particular that's super nice for less bulky teams, with Quick Attack taking care of Endure + Reversal/Flail stuff, +1 Sharpedo, setup sweepers with a silver of health remaining etc, and Pursuit, as stupid as it sounds, taking care of Shedinja (which is absolutely huge for some teams) and stuff like 1 HP Scyther switching out because it can come back in multiple times and just keep destroying with 200 BP Reversal/Swarm boosted HP Bug. Ground Immunity is also a nice immunity to stack up on, and obviously the fact that you hit all the Psychics for STAB + SE is huge. Probably one of the most consistent mons in this tier at the moment, and definitely deserving of a raise.

I love Blastoise to death, but even I have to admit that it's kinda dropping off a bit. I'm not a big fan of Walrein (thats a personal thing though), but Omastar finds itself on a lot of teams because of the normal resist + Spikes so I still don't use Blastoise a lot. I think its main problem is that it only has 4 moveslots with Surf/Spin being basically mandatory, and Rest being almost mandatory imo as well, even on offensive teams, leaving it with only one of Toxic/Ice Beam/whatever else you want to put on (EQ Blastoise surprises the heck out of Tentacruel looking for free setup, and can even check it in a pinch as you live 2 boosted Sludge Bombs and 2hko back, and this is huge considering that Tentacruel seems to be THE mon you don't want to give free setup to atm), and Blastoise really has a hard time performing as well as it used to right now. It's still super solid (Pure Water being the main reason why I prefer it over Walrein and used to prefer it over Omastar, no nasty Rock/Ground weakness), but I think moving it down is probably the right choice right now.

Also, thoughts on Banette moving up a little? Normal immunity is obviously great, and it's really REALLY strong. Like, OHKO Max/Max+ Lunatone, OHKO Standard Hypno and 2HKO Cradily with a boost from CB level strong. Its movepool sucks something fierce, and you're basically forced to run two support moves after SBall/HP Fight because it gets nothing else, and Kanga being immune to Shadow Ball is obviously a huge flaw, but it has the potential to wreck basically everything that's not Granbull in 2 hits which is pretty damn cool. It's quite frail and slow too, but its insane power and with it the potential to switch straight up into Hypno (mostly CM Pass cause Reflect just beats you in the long run) and force it out without there being a Baton Pass is a pretty significant niche. Not like this is a nomination for Banette to move up to A or anything, but I think moving up to at least Raichu level is reasonable for what it does (really hard check to CM Pass Psychics being the main thing here).
 
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Hogg

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Yeah I'd be down with seeing Banette rise. It's movepool is pretty barren but Shadow Ball + HP Fighting is really all you need. I've been running Sub/WoW in my last two slots on a Lefties set, and CB Banette is a monster. Having things immune to sleep is always pretty huge to avoid getting swept by Lunatone (especially CM + HP Dark + Hypnosis Lunatone, which I specifically love to beat the Hypnos that usually try to come in on Hypnosis).
 

Hogg

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I also think that Missy and Hitmonlee can drop out of Top A. Hitmonlee is still pretty cool and seems to fit in well with the A rank stuff, but it's just short of fast enough to really do the work it needs to do - underspeeding Kanga in particular makes it a hard sell. Missy has just been incredibly disappointing lately - its CM set almost never does any work in practice, and while Imprison is cool, I don't think it's anywhere near the level of the rest of A+ (or, frankly, most of Mid-A either).
 

Oglemi

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Ya these rankings here are pretty outdated, I haven't touched UU at a high level in years to do it accurately now either. I think Hogg has an updated version in the UU forum somewhere. Major things to note are that Kang is now clearly the #1 mon with Omastar at #2. Hypno is still really good, but it's definitely not at the peak of the metagame like it used to be. Some major drops include Fearow, Aggron, and Electrode, and Shedinja is nigh-unusable in this tier now considering just how integral Spikes are.
 
For anyone looking for it, here is the thread that includes the updated VR, which is in my opinion fairly accurate : https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-old-gens-hub.3576780/

Since it doesn't seem like there is any discussion about the rankings in the UU Old Gens thread, maybe we could just replace the current VR in this thread by the updated one ? Although I still think that some changes could be done, it's still pretty good as it is.
 
Going by the Viability Rankings Wenderz linked, couldn't Shedinja be a little higher? In my experience, Shedinja Stall is pretty silly but still potent enough for it to rise at least a places or two in the rankings. Then again, Feraligatr and Poliwrath can be hard to argue against, and it is purely a gimmick at best.

I'm also all for switching the Viability Rankings here with the one from the Hub Post. It's a LOT better.
 

Hogg

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Shedinja stall is a lot of fun, but the meta is extremely Spikes-heavy right now, and most teams have ways of pressuring common spinners. It's still doable but it requires a ton of support, which IMO makes it fit in well with the other B- 'mons like Poliwrath and Victreebel.

EDIT: That said, it has been a couple of years since we made those rankings, and I think I would still shift a couple of things there. Aggron probably deserves to drop a bit, with choiced Kanga really falling out of favor and mono-normal Kanga growing less common as well. Lately three attacks Kanga with Rest or Wish has been the wave, which hurts it hard. Meanwhile, I was always a big opponent of Missy, but it has definitely been a lot better as the meta has shifted to favor Spikes BO. It's a much more reliable spinblocker than Shedinja, especially on more offensive teams, and with the revival of PerishTrap Missy and some new interesting sets like CM Rest to screw with stall, it's probably worth a bump into the A- ranks at least. The electrics might deserve a bump to A, Fearow probably should drop to A-, and Scyther makes a pretty good case for S rank alongside Oma/Hypno.
 
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Shedinja stall is a lot of fun, but the meta is extremely Spikes-heavy right now, and most teams have ways of pressuring common spinners. It's still doable but it requires a ton of support, which IMO makes it fit in well with the other B- 'mons like Poliwrath and Victreebel.
Yeah I can see why Shedinja shouldn't rise more than a place or two due to the Spikes problem. I tend to run 2 spinners if I'm using it solely because of how much my teams hate hazards. Sacking Shedinja for Misdreavus would probably loosen the pressure though, I'll try it out. Trap Perish Song, kill, Wishpass, repeat.
 

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