This is extremely minor but I think the second set should be All-Out Attacker or something, as wallbreaker is pretty vauge as-is and the first set kinda breaks walls, too. Not as well, but I think you get my point?
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Aegislash
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
A random sample Pain Split set (gained access to it from Pokebank via Misdreavus).. I imagine Doublade can probably pull it off better, but..:
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 SDef / 4 Def / 252 HP
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Shadow Sneak / Reflect / Substitute
- Pain Split
- Toxic / Iron Defense / Reflect
- King's Shield / Protect
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 SDef / 4 Def / 252 HP
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Shadow Sneak / Reflect / Substitute
- Pain Split
- Toxic / Iron Defense / Reflect
- King's Shield / Protect
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Have you actually confirmed this yourself, or are you just suspecting that it might get it from Misdreavous?
He can't even breed with Missy, so obviously his set is speculation.
It can breed with Yamask, but Pain Split is a Gen 5 Tutor move for Yamask IIRC and no one has yet confirmed Pain Split.
Can we be sure to call the wallbreaker set "the crumbler"?
Uh.. for that very first set, why are you running 12 Speed EVs with the Quiet nature (negative Speed)? Someone suggested 12 Speed EVs with an Adamant (neutral Speed) to outrun neutral 0 Speed Tyranitar.. but for a Quiet nature, you're not outspeeding your intended target, so it's a bit of a waste, should probably stick that 12 Speed EVs into Sp.Def or Att xd
The 12 Spe EVs are for Sassy Tyranitar. The only reason you run Quiet on Aegislash is because there's no other stat you would rather lower besides Speed. However, outspeeding Tyranitar is still important in order to KO with Sacred Sword before it can Crunch.
I made a point and asked a question earlier, but got no response. I am not QC, granted, but it still felt strange. Anyway...
1. Relaxed Mega Aggron can out-slow Aegislash, and then hit it with Earthquake in its blade form. This is especially dangerous for Aegislash sets that only have physical attacks. In fact, any Poké that can survive an attack of Aegis while out-slowing it could be a threat.
2. If Aegislash doesn't run King's Shield, is a Choice Band/Specs set viable? Or does it already have enough power to succeed with just a LO boost?
1. Relaxed Mega Aggron can out-slow Aegislash, and then hit it with Earthquake in its blade form. This is especially dangerous for Aegislash sets that only have physical attacks. In fact, any Poké that can survive an attack of Aegis while out-slowing it could be a threat.
2. If Aegislash doesn't run King's Shield, is a Choice Band/Specs set viable? Or does it already have enough power to succeed with just a LO boost?
The problem with a Choice item is that it automatically forces Aegislash out. The Choice Band set can be decent, especially with Head Smash, but:
This explains it perfectly, especially:alexwolf said:
OK. I understand the thing about Choice items.
Here is a list of some significant Pokémon that can out-slow Aegis:
Mega Aggron
Snorlax
Conkeldurr
Hippowdon
Mega Mawile
Mega Ampharos (Regular Ampharos can out-slow Aegis... if it has a negative speed nature or decreased speed IVs)
So which from those list can reliably threaten Aegislash?
Here is a list of some significant Pokémon that can out-slow Aegis:
Mega Aggron
Snorlax
Conkeldurr
Hippowdon
Mega Mawile
Mega Ampharos (Regular Ampharos can out-slow Aegis... if it has a negative speed nature or decreased speed IVs)
So which from those list can reliably threaten Aegislash?
They can all threaten it, except Ampharos, which isn't running a -Speed nature or low Speed IVs if it's sane. Conkeldurr beats it with Knock Off, Snorlax with Fire Punch, and Hippowdon with Earthquake. However, Snorlax takes quite a bit from Sacred Sword, and Hippowdon takes quite a bit from Shadow Ball. Mega Aggron takes a lot from Shadow Ball. Mega Mawile also takes a lot from Shadow Ball, and can't really threaten it tbh...
Psyco Josho
Psyco Josho
As a small note: 252 HP / 252 SpD Relaxed (standard) Mega Aggron is only taking 34.8 - 41.2% from 252 SpA Aegislash w/Leftovers. Aegislash needs to be running a Life Orb and have Stealth Rock up on the Aggron players side to have a 90.6% chance at 2HKO'ing Mega Aggron. Mega Aggron beats Aegislash one-on-one without significant prior damage.
Hmm.. I know I personally run a Relaxed Tyranitar with an Assault Vest (Relaxed, 248 HP, 164 Def, 96 Sp.Def EVs => 303 HP, 326 Def, 260 Sp.Def, which is a little bit better than Sassy, 248 HP, 252 Def, 8 Sp.Def => 303 HP, 319 Def, 260 Sp.Def):
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Tyranitar: 268-316 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar: 272-324 (67.4 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fails to OHKO.. I'd rather go for the safe route rather than taking a risk with the Speed.. As for using Tyranitar, I'd probably rather go for a Fire Blast/Earthquake to prevent the King's Shield trigger.
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 320-378 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 106-126 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 6.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
um why are the first two sets so similar. I understand that they play differently, but with lefties on the second set its nearly identical, the only real difference is slightly more power on your secondary moves, but thats not enough to justify playing completely differently. Its like presenting scarfmence and giving it two sets because youre saying it can play as a revenger and as a sweeper. Not just that, but a lot of the comments on the second set are also just assuming lo, so perhaps lefties should be removed, and then spooky plate slashed as second option?
The first set can actually take hits, and is meant to do so. The second is meant to switch in, smack something hard, and get out immediately.
Also...I have no idea what Leftovers are doing on Wallbreaker either. It's not meant to stay in for long periods of time, and IMO it needs the power of Life Orb.
Its true that the two first sets look really similar. This happened because originally, only the first set had King's Shield, while the second was 4 attacks, and Lefties wasn't slashed on the second set. Atm, i am thinking about merging the two sets, as their only difference is 252 HP EVs, and they don't play very differently, but i dislike Aegislash not having two sets about its two best roles: tank and wallbreaker. Yeah, max Atk + max SpA + King's Shield + Lefties is nice to become a mix of a tank and a wallbreaker, but from my playtesting experience, Life Orb was really needed in order for Aegislash to be a REAL wallbreaker, that would make the opponent anxious every time it came in. And with Life Orb and no HP investment, after killing something in 1-2 hits (two hits most of the time, it's very rare to OHKO a check, even with prediction), you are usually too weak to take a hit from the Pokemon that would come to force you out even in Shield forme; for example, SR Lando-T, one of Aegislash's checks, does 80% minimum against 4 HP Aegislash-Shield, a sure OHKO after two LO recoils, or a big chance to OHKO after SR + 1 LO recoil. Another good check to Aegislash, Heatran, often carries WoW if its SpD, or always OHKOes after SR or 1 LO recoil with offensive sets (without any boosting item or nature). Same goes for Garchomp, Excadrill, and most offensive checks to Aegislash, aka the Pokemon you need King's Shield for.
Same goes for the tank set, 252 HP were essential to allow Aegislash to switch in frequently while also checking major threats (such as +2 Mega Lucario, which you can't check without max HP).
For this reason i don't really like King's Shield + Lefties on the wallbreaking set, and i think that having two sets, one with max HP, Lefties, and King's Shield, and the other a dedicated wallbreaking set with LO +4 attacks is the way to go. If someone finds the Steel move on the last slot a bit unnecessary on the wallbreaking set, Hidden Power Ice is always an option to OHKO major checks such as Landorus-T and Garchomp on the switch.
All this of course, with the assumption that the wallbreaking set and the tank set as i presented them have enough merit to get their own sets. If the consensus is that the mix of the tank and the wallbreaker set is its best set, and that it outclasses the dedicated tank and wallbreaker sets, then those two sets can just get a mention in the set comments. But i really don't think that this is the case, as i showed above, where King's Shield doesn't really help a lot Aegislash with its offensive checks, with LO as the primary item, which i think you need in order to be a good wallbreaker
Same goes for the tank set, 252 HP were essential to allow Aegislash to switch in frequently while also checking major threats (such as +2 Mega Lucario, which you can't check without max HP).
For this reason i don't really like King's Shield + Lefties on the wallbreaking set, and i think that having two sets, one with max HP, Lefties, and King's Shield, and the other a dedicated wallbreaking set with LO +4 attacks is the way to go. If someone finds the Steel move on the last slot a bit unnecessary on the wallbreaking set, Hidden Power Ice is always an option to OHKO major checks such as Landorus-T and Garchomp on the switch.
All this of course, with the assumption that the wallbreaking set and the tank set as i presented them have enough merit to get their own sets. If the consensus is that the mix of the tank and the wallbreaker set is its best set, and that it outclasses the dedicated tank and wallbreaker sets, then those two sets can just get a mention in the set comments. But i really don't think that this is the case, as i showed above, where King's Shield doesn't really help a lot Aegislash with its offensive checks, with LO as the primary item, which i think you need in order to be a good wallbreaker
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I heavily agree with alexwolf on keeping the sets separate. The wallbreaker set can't take hits nearly as well as the max HP tank set, whereas the tank set doesn't hit nearly as hard with its physical attacks.
I'd like to suggest Shadow Sneak getting its own slot and Sacred Sword / Iron Head being slashed into one slot. I would never run non-Autotomize Aegislash without priority. It just loves the ability to pick opponents off. Priority is an invaluable asset in this metagame, and Aegislash bringing it to the table is something that isn't worth passing up, at least IMO. The coverage is usually gonna be Sacred Sword, but you can use Iron Head if Fairies are a particular issue. Considering Shadow Ball / Shadow Sneak / Sacred Sword / King's Shield is widely considered to be the best set, too, I have a feeling I'm not the only one who wouldn't forgo the priority.
I'd like to suggest Shadow Sneak getting its own slot and Sacred Sword / Iron Head being slashed into one slot. I would never run non-Autotomize Aegislash without priority. It just loves the ability to pick opponents off. Priority is an invaluable asset in this metagame, and Aegislash bringing it to the table is something that isn't worth passing up, at least IMO. The coverage is usually gonna be Sacred Sword, but you can use Iron Head if Fairies are a particular issue. Considering Shadow Ball / Shadow Sneak / Sacred Sword / King's Shield is widely considered to be the best set, too, I have a feeling I'm not the only one who wouldn't forgo the priority.
then maybe the sets should be changed so that the wallbreaker set is actually a wallbreaker not just a tank with a bit less power. removing lefties is the big thing here, probably using lo/spooky plate as item options instead...
I know, this is what we are supposed to discuss. Is it better to have two sets (a tank and a wallbreaker) or a mix of those two?
They're basically the same thing... They use mixed sets to tear stuff apart. One just sacrifices bulk for more power throughout its moveset. They essentially accomplish the same thing in the grand scheme of things. Can't you just merge them together and put in the set details that you can run a more reckless Aegislash set with max Attack and Life Orb?