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Rejected Allow DryPass in every tier
- Thread starter SoulWind
- Start date
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I have no issue with this position. I've been saying taking these endlessly variable extra steps to preserve the move is unnecessary in all tiers, and have voted for full BP ban in tiers where I can. So far it's appeared to have been an unpopular choice, as people seem to like the presence of "dry" passing in some of these tiers.
That in itself seems to be a crux, that enough people value "dry" passing enough to implement some of the wackiest tiering decisions we've ever made in mons. I personally don't feel that any tier is made notably better by "dry" passing such that it's worth going through all this rigmarole.
I’ve always supported drypass being freed! It’s a very common move that provides an extra layer to the game and makes some mons more viable
however, I’m surprised by the incredible amount of support it’s received thus far, especially from symmetry enthusiasts and rule sticklers such as ABR and Finch
if we can place this drypass clause that dictates “you cannot pass any positive effects such as stat boosts, sub, etc”, we should be able to ban Moves or Abilities on specific mons that are considered too busted. I’m talking we ban Rage Fist and free Annhilape. We ban Electro Shot and free Archaludon. We ban Blood Moon and free Ursukuna-BM. These signature attacks that are clearly too much for the metagame being banned would free up 3 entirely viable mons, for example. Back when Gambito was considered OP; ban Supreme Overlord.
The idea that newer players would be too confused is a bit silly to me bc they’d just see the ban and be ok “shucks, can’t use that!” and move on. Similarly to how people would see, idk, Hatterene now has access to Baton Pass and they try using Calm Mind and Baton Pass together into realizing it’s not allowed!
My contribution to the post is that our tiering system is very silly and built upon this idea of making things simpler for the casual playerbase, but it’s not like some 14 year old kid who just finished playing SV is gonna “Search for Battle” for 10 minutes straight and continuously receive the “Rage Fist is banned” pop-up without understanding what’s going on. This applies to BP + positive fx as well.
I support DryPass being freed + some other complex bans because it allows for more possibilities in the teambuilder. I also think our strict tiering policies are silly
however, I’m surprised by the incredible amount of support it’s received thus far, especially from symmetry enthusiasts and rule sticklers such as ABR and Finch
if we can place this drypass clause that dictates “you cannot pass any positive effects such as stat boosts, sub, etc”, we should be able to ban Moves or Abilities on specific mons that are considered too busted. I’m talking we ban Rage Fist and free Annhilape. We ban Electro Shot and free Archaludon. We ban Blood Moon and free Ursukuna-BM. These signature attacks that are clearly too much for the metagame being banned would free up 3 entirely viable mons, for example. Back when Gambito was considered OP; ban Supreme Overlord.
The idea that newer players would be too confused is a bit silly to me bc they’d just see the ban and be ok “shucks, can’t use that!” and move on. Similarly to how people would see, idk, Hatterene now has access to Baton Pass and they try using Calm Mind and Baton Pass together into realizing it’s not allowed!
My contribution to the post is that our tiering system is very silly and built upon this idea of making things simpler for the casual playerbase, but it’s not like some 14 year old kid who just finished playing SV is gonna “Search for Battle” for 10 minutes straight and continuously receive the “Rage Fist is banned” pop-up without understanding what’s going on. This applies to BP + positive fx as well.
I support DryPass being freed + some other complex bans because it allows for more possibilities in the teambuilder. I also think our strict tiering policies are silly
I don't think we should force it into them just like that, specially when not all of them use the same restrictions, they are playing quite different games, what works for one may not work for the other, they should have the right to decide what works better on their corresponding formats and the rules we make now don't need to undo past decisions that took hours to make, they took those decisions because they seemed to be what works for their community and that should be respected, they should only be changed if they want to. I think it is fine to let past gen follow the standards of their times.
This is mostly true, but I think signature moves/abilities need to be somewhat unique to actually tier independently of their users, while stuff like Shed Tail, Rage Fist and Last Respect just get out of control when anything with half decent stats gets access to them, Blood Moon is just a less practical Boomburst, and Boomburst isn't breaking anyone, even in the gen where anything can change its typing to get STAB on it.
But that's a different discussion anyway, blank move/abilities bans aren't something new. Baton Pass being restricted to only some kind of sets is a big jump from that, I could get behind the idea of allowing Baton Pass without stats boosts, as is quite self-explanatory, is when trying to add all the other possible Baton Pass uses to the restriction like others suggested that it gets messy, as we now have to keep on mind the legality of multiple moves that have nothing in common like Aqua Ring and Magnet Rise. If we were to go forward with this kind of stuff, it has to be in a way that doesn't come with unexpected side effects nor make you wonder why is one fine and not the other, like seeing Blood Moon in the banlist but not Boomburst.
want to emphasize this as well as to note that for SS specifically (as thats the tier i feel most comfortable discussing/bringing my perspective on), this would enable clef to be able to have a pivoting move without running into teleport-related legality issues. and umbreon gets. slightly less super niche probably. so basically no real difference or reason that we should do this except for consistency/philosophical reasoning
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On a conceptual level sure, but if you're implementing uniform rules against goofy complex bans - particularly modifications to the base game, e.g. Sleep Moves Clause and Freeze Clause, then RB is literally unplayable because of all the terrible coding it has that leads to constant desyncs.
This game at its core is only competitive because we force it to be through banning OHKO moves, evasion strategies, etc. and while I think "restriction" style bans are unnecessary I also recognise I'm approaching that discussion with the luxury of being a modern gens player.
If BP complex bans aren't necessary then the people who actually play those tiers should be trusted to cut them; DPP council replaced their "evasion ability clause(?)" just last year in favour of a simple Snow Cloak ban and I'd hope they'd do the same with the other complex bans / game modifications if they weren't needed. There's no reason for antiquated tiering policy to influence current gen decisions nor should CG policy be forced on oldgens.
As for the current discussion, I'm against any ruling that requires the implementation of a special clause to function. Gamefreak cut Teleport from movepools and we should be accepting that instead of mutilating Baton Pass in an attempt to introduce more pivots into the metagame. We don't need them.
Hi, my thoughts / stance on drypass can basically be summed up by:
- Drypass as a move does not exist from gamefreaks point of view, and while we have defined what it is and allow it in our old gens, it feels odd to me to re-add clauses to our tiers when we've already "solved" the issue by banning baton pass and there hasn't been any issues that have stemmed from that. To me it seems like taking a step back after already taking many steps forward with things like banning sleep moves, and when baton pass hasn't even been touched by a modern generation in many years.
- While yes, generations like BW and DPP have recently gone back and allowed Drypass, these generations had completely different versions of Baton Pass legal when the generations ended, and I think that serves as a fairly big signifier when it comes back to them allowing it to be legal in their generations. While I don't personally see the need for them to have done it, I can understand with old generations why a solution like drypass is preferred, since its already been defined like stated earlier. Another big signifier here is that both BW/DPP did these baton pass overall bans as quickbans prior to big tournaments, with the goal of looking at them again after, which they did.
- The only reasoning that people really have here is that there is no big reason against it, and that we already have the framework for it, so why not allow it? I don't think thats strong enough of a reason to allow a modification / clausing of our current system, and there should be some actual competitive reasoning behind it, or some tiering reason aside from it already existing in other generations.
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