Allowing NFEs in UU

[Misty]

I really want to open up this topic to discussion, I feel it is an important discussion that warrants some thought.

The way I see it, there are currently about 250 or so unevolved Pokemon. With special exceptions (Porygon2, Scyther, Pikachu), none of them are even usable at the OU level. At the UU level, however, the way is opened up for quite a few unevolved Pokemon to be usable and even potent. At the NU level this may even get out of hand, but we'll only concern ourselves with UU at the moment.

Consider for a moment the sizable number of Pokemon that evolved in DP - Magmar, Electabuzz, Yanma, Tangela, Roselia, Gligar, ... these weren't just UU, we're talking about some ADV UU staples (especially Gligar). As far as these Pokemon go, they're still (mostly) the same thing - they just happen to have better evolutions. Is that any reason whatsoever to exclude them from an arena in which they are obviously playable? Does that make sense?

And then there's the argument about UU being "OU-lite". WTF does that even mean? Do you expect any competent person to use Pupitar? And even if they did, do you expect it to be anywhere near as dominant as its evolved form, with a reasonable assessment of its stats?

In fact, at the risk of belaboring the point, I'll list all of the major unevolved forums of OU's top contenders.

Pupitar - First off, Pupitar doesn't even have Sandstream. Its attack stat has a 50BP drop - meaning it goes from a 403 max to a 293 max. Even at the UU level, there's scarier than that. Dragon Dance makes it potent, but 2 4x weaknesses will keep it from being dominant, especially when Meganium shows up.

Shelgon - First, Shelgon's special attack base is 60, so don't expect Draco Meteor rape here. 50 base speed prevents it from being a potent Dragon Dancer (it's slower than Pupitar!). Given Altaria's availability, I can't think of a single good reason to use Shelgon.

Metang - 75 base attack yea!!!!!!

Gabite - Despite probably being the most fearsome of the 600 group's pre-evos, Gabite doesn't even get Swords Dance. In fact, all things considered, Gabite is a bad Gligar.

Chansey - Banned. Yep, we can still ban these things to BL.

Rhydon - Banned. Rhyhorn isn't even worth mentioning with Golem around.

Haunter - As far as I can grasp, Haunter is probably the best potential option for any sort of "OU lite" argument... assuming Haunter isn't banned to BL, of course.

Kadabra - Banned, most likely.

Hippopotas - Mentioned mostly for Sandstream, because Hippopotas' stats are ass. I could see this being used for Sandstorm strategies, but consider for a moment that your opponent is essentially down 6-5 from the start, unlike in OU where the Sandstreamers are very potent.


Every other NFE Pokemon is a joke or was acceptable in a previous gen (like Electabuzz and Gligar), which tells me that it is kind of dumb to ban them. A good number of major OU Pokemon are legendaries or other single-stage Pokemon.


So, I hope you guys see my point - that there is no valid reason to ban the majority of NFEs from UU (barring Chansey, Rhydon, Haunter, and Kadabra, who are simply overpowered of their own accord). On the other hand, allowing NFEs encourages people to use far more Pokemon than otherwise possible, and IMO that is always a good thing.

 

[poke-chan]

I always really liked the idea of using NFEs in UU. Like the threads that have been popping up lately (the Remoraid one is brought to mind), some NFEs that seem like they might be unusable- or simply Pokes that no one would think of- are clearly available for use in UU.

I support this, personally. It makes so many more Pokes available for use.


Also, I think it's good that some sort of official word is coming on it. :U Thanks, Misty.

 

[Chaos Pudding]

I'm confused. If they weren't allowed in UU, then where exactly were they allowed? Basically I'm saying that I don't get why they were banned in the first place, mostly because of the reasons you posted. If they weren't banned, then what is the point of discussion? To propose ways to use them effectively?

 

[Misty]

There are users who are major proponents of the "no NFEs in UU" argument, which has been the standard policy in all generations; I want to use this topic to debate that NFEs (except for special exceptions) SHOULD be allowed in UU.

 

[Chaos Pudding]

Oh, I see. Well, I see most, but I don't see the reason for arguing against NFE in UU. I mean, "OU-Lite"? That is bull. There has to be a more compelling reasoning for banning NFE in UU.

 

[Kumar]

I don't like NFEs just because we traditionally play with only fully evolved pokemon (except in some circumstances where the unevolved poke is different from its evolved form) and we should stick to that so that everything gets a chance :S

 

[squirtleboy12]

yeah i think they should because if theres evolve forms who are so ou but their pre-evolve forms have better stats then for example beutifly...this pokemon actually deserve a chance

some pokemon :

haunter:has great special attackand good speed..has 3 immunitys just like his big brother gengar and has a large movepool
gligar:has good enough speed for uu and has good defense and learns swords dance for a potential sweep

so yes i think they should be allowed

 

[Boa1891]

I don't see why NFEs shouldn't be used. It's stupid to limit an already severely restrained UU environment. I mean, I'd love to be able to use cute little Cranidos to go wolloping through UU. (unless it would end up banned from UU, which would make a fan of cute powerhouses very sad.)
That said, I think that unless it really is too strong for UU, it should be allowed there. I mean, why not?

 

[Lou Cypher]

Some of them should just be gone. The ones I mostly think that SHOULDN'T be in UU (and aren't radically different like Porygon2 but are more "light" versions) are:
- Rhydon
- Chansey
- Kadabra
- Haunter
- Dusclops
- Gligar

Hear me out on Gligar. In ADV, Gligar was already a pest which every team had to prepare for. Now that it got Roost, I think it might be even TOO powerful for UU. Note how many time its named as a counter at a LOT of UU pokes in the Analysis section.

 

[squirtleboy12]

I don't see why NFEs shouldn't be used. It's stupid to limit an already severely restrained UU environment. I mean, I'd love to be able to use cute little Cranidos to go wolloping through UU. (unless it would end up banned from UU, which would make a fan of cute powerhouses very sad.)
That said, I think that unless it really is too strong for UU, it should be allowed there. I mean, why not?

about cranidos i dont see it that much because it has crappier defenses and hp then cranidos and easelys die to anything...then agin in a trick rooom team this would rock specially with choice band but meganium.blastoise will be easy counters...and one more thing if the metagame dosnt allowed enevolved pokemon then i shouldnt allowed pokemon like ditto and delcatty..i mean even my squirtle could beat a ditto..

 

[Bologo]

If they're allowed in, doesn't that mean that Munchlax can be a good substitute to Hypno as a special wall with 135 base HP and 85 special defense?

Also, there are some fully evolved pokemon like Luvdisc that have lower stats than some DOUBLY unevolved pokemon. Don't let suckers like that thing hold you back from putting NFEs in.

They honestly should be allowed in though. People like to try out new strategies with NFEs, which is especially easier with the new Focus Sash that was implimented this generation.

I'd say, they should be just like accuracy lowering moves are. Allowed, but use at your own risk.

 

[OldSchoolNub]

As long as they don't screw up the metagame(which Chansey, Kadabra, etc, would), I see no reason at all why they shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Gmax]

I agree with Lou Cypher on Gligar. It was bad enough back in Advance when it couldn't heal itself and could come in on CB Kanga EQ/CB Fearow HP Ground, SD the switch and start sweeping.

Now that it can Roost, we can't just whittle its HP away with walls, we have to be able to OHKO it. Honestly, I don't think anything short of CB Giga Attack could OHKO it from the physical side. And once your special sweeper is down, its an invite for him to sweep.

With the BL metagame in for a huge surge of Pokemon, it could carve a niche for itself there.

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

I used Duskull in ADV UU, and got a lot of bitching about it.

I tell you what, though, it actually worked pretty well. (Night Shade/Will-o-Wisp/Pain Split/Confuse Ray) As long as the overpowering ones are eliminated, why not?

 

[Familiar Trainer]

I used Duskull in ADV UU, and got a lot of bitching about it.

I tell you what, though, it actually worked pretty well. (Night Shade/Will-o-Wisp/Pain Split/Confuse Ray) As long as the overpowering ones are eliminated, why not?

Duskull gets Levitate though, which sets it apart from it's evolutions.

I'm all in favor of allowing things like Phione and Vigoroth, but every NFE is really pushing it. What's the point if you have to ban a good 1/4th or so of them anyway?

 

[Odinwolf]

I think that the biggest obstacle would be properly sorting all the NFEs into their correct tiers so that the metagame was still fair and balanced. The tier list could include EVERY pokemon, evolved or not, but that will take a lot of extra work on the part of the people who officially assemble it. I think NFEs should be allowed in as long as the community is willing to do the work to sort them all properly and keep things fair.

 

[Misty]

1/4th? I doubt the NFEs we'll have to ban is more than 10 (I can only think of 5 atm - I forgot Dusclops before). Of course, if we're talking about percentages of NFEs actually used in UU... but really, I think it's worth it.


I admit that this makes NU a little difficult to legislate, because there may be a good portion of NFEs that simply dominate the NU environment even if they aren't really used in UU. Banning NFEs from NU while allowing them in UU seems a bit arbitrary, even if it might be effective. I'm up for opinions on this.

 

[Murkrow]

I'm all in favor of allowing things like Phione and Vigoroth, but every NFE is really pushing it. What's the point if you have to ban a good 1/4th or so of them anyway?

1/4? Misty suggested banning ~4-5 Pokemon, certainly less than 10. Of all the NFEs e.g. Bulbasaur, Ivysaur, Charmander, Charmeleon, Squirtle, Wartortle... I don't think 4-5 Pokemon constitute 1/4.

edit - beaten by Misty himself

We'd be saying "you can use all NFEs in UU except [a list of] Chansey, Kadabra, Haunter, etc. which make it to BL"

As opposed to

"You can't use any NFE's except [a list of] Vigoroth, Clamperl, Pikachu, Scyther, etc."

I think the former makes much more sense. Most of these Pokemon are hardly viable, so why ban them? Plus if you banned them from UU I imagine you'd ban them from NU, meaning you can't use NFEs anywhere outside of Little Cup. And while in practice it doesn't matter that I'm banned from using Bulbasaur on my team, I think in principle it does.

 

[Deck Knight]

Possibly Viable NFE's:

Kadabra: With no elemental punches and things like choice scarf to stop it, it isn't nearly as dominating a force.
Haunter: See Kadabra.
Tangela: I don't see what makes it any less useful than it was last time.
Electabuzz: The loss of Ice punch really hurt it.
Magmar: recieved several improvements.
Lickitung: Zero reason to ban this one too. It can't even go boom.
Chansey: Banned.
Sneasel: Now that it has physical STAB it could very well be formidable. It doesn't get Night Slash though, which really hurts it.
Misdreavus: Still awesome.
Murkrow: I fail to see how it's less lame than last time.
Aipom: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Yanma: A bad Yanmega at best. 75 Base SA is LOL.
Piloswine: 100 Base Attack is still good, and there's no reason to ban it.
Vigoroth: Still kinda lame, its like a bad Primeape.
Nosepass: LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Dusclops: It would add a decent wall and it isn't horribly overpowered.
Cranidos: It has the same base speed as Rampardos, and 125 Base Attack is still above many other pokemon. The crap defenses only mean you'll see an onslaught of Rock Polish + Focus Sash variants.

About the only NFE's that qualify as OU lite are Kababra, Haunter, Piloswine, Sneasel, and Cranidos. Everything else is either too slow or requires such a different use from its evolution that the two are completely different.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

Kadabra: With no elemental punches and things like choice scarf to stop it, it isn't nearly as dominating a force.
Haunter: See Kadabra.
Tangela: I don't see what makes it any less useful than it was last time.
Electabuzz: The loss of Ice punch really hurt it.
Magmar: recieved several improvements.
Lickitung: Zero reason to ban this one too. It can't even go boom.
Chansey: Banned.
Sneasel: Now that it has physical STAB it could very well be formidable. It doesn't get Night Slash though, which really hurts it.
Misdreavus: Still awesome.
Murkrow: I fail to see how it's less lame than last time.
Aipom: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Yanma: A bad Yanmega at best. 75 Base SA is LOL.
Piloswine: 100 Base Attack is still good, and there's no reason to ban it.
Vigoroth: Still kinda lame, its like a bad Primeape.
Nosepass: LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Dusclops: It would add a decent wall and it isn't horribly overpowered.
Cranidos: It has the same base speed as Rampardos, and 125 Base Attack is still above many other pokemon. The crap defenses only mean you'll see an onslaught of Rock Polish + Focus Sash variants.

I highlighted all the Pokemon that imo are "OU-lite". Note that if allowed these Pokemon would be the only NFE ones used. Not things like Ivysaur and Pupitar. 10/17 from just that list, and at least 5 of them I can see being banned. A little more then 1/4th of usable things, really.

I'm going to stop though before I sound like I support blanket bans. In all honesty though, it seems to me "you can't use any NFE's except..." is the way it's going to turn out, for the simple lack of knowing where to draw the line.

 

[Misty]

Dusclops definitely doesn't belong in UU, it was OU/BL in ADV.

 

[Bologo]

What becomes of Magneton? I know it was OU in ADV, but that was only really because of Skarmory. Magnezone does that in OU now, so does Magneton get shoved into BL limbo?

Also, I saw Yanma on Deck Knight's list, but in some cases it isn't just a bad Yanmega, it does have Compoundeyes which gives it a 91% accurate Hypnosis which can be really useful, and unlike Butterfree, it can actually hurt things a lot better.

 

[Rezileen]

Hmm, what about Magneton? It was OU in Advance so is it too powerful for UU? It's basically Magnezone with more speed and less in everything else. TBolt from base 120 atk can hurt most UU pokemon and it has HP Ice/Grass for grounds. It can also Explode in Munchlax's face.

Dang Bologo, beaten. I need to learn to type faster.

 

[Firestorm]

How would Dragonair do. 70 base speed, 84 base attack, Shed Skin ability, DD + Outrage, pure dragon typing.

 

[obi]

To me, the entire purpose of UU is to have a metagame different from OU. Allowing NFEs of OUs in UU defeats that purpose. Almost every NFE is played exactly like its fully evolved counterpart, except there are usually even less viable strategies with them (Shelgon can't really run a devastating special set, for instance, but Salamence can). This is what is meant by "OU-lite". Saying "they won't be used" is not a valid argument. If they aren't used, it doesn't matter if they are banned from OU, so there's really no point in creating opposition to it by introducing this change. If they are used, they need to be taken into account.

Pokemon should be played, in the "major" tiers (so not stuff like Little Cup I guess), with "distinct" Pokemon. What this means is that it is either fully evolved, or has something unique to set it apart from its fully evolved counterpart.

Pikachu has Light Ball to make its offensive stats much higher than Raichu's.

Trapinch has Arena Trap to give it a purpose over Flygon.

Vigoroth lacks Truant, meaning it doesn't have to be a hit-and-run Pokemon, but can actually set up, or just hit stuff on consecutive turns.

Clamperl can use DeapSeaTooth and DeapSeaScale (although the Defensive boost is overshadowed by the pathetic HP, the increase to Special Attack makes it a potential offensive powerhouse).

Scyther has signficantly more Speed and a separate typing from Scizor, granting it immunity to Ground, 4x resist to Fighting, and STAB Flying.

Pupitar's Earthquake is actually more powerful than Tyranitar's, and Sand Stream can be a double-edged sword. Duskull gets Levitate over Dusknoir and Dusclops. Onix has signficantly more Speed than Steelix, trades a few weaknesses / resistances, and has STAB Rock.

I cannot think of any Pokemon that aren't watered-down versions of their fully evolved counterparts, and I see no reason for the others to be allowed in UU.

I am of the opinion that, except for the preceding list, all NFEs should be in the same tier as their fully evolved counterpart.