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Almost Any Ability ORAS

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asterat said:
Sorry guys, I haven't been posting here much. Going forward I'm going to do my best to maintain biweekly posts to help lead/instigate discussion. Remember that if you make a lot of good posts here, you could earn a spot on the council!

xJownage
Your argument isn't completely ridiculous, and I apologize for just dropping the bomb on all of you. The council has been frustrated by how protean has roadblocked metagame diversity for some time, and we knew something had to be done. The AAA ladder has been infested with teams that spam protean, usually coupled with a (Mold Breaker) Deoxys-S lead and maybe a Sheer Force Gengar to block opposing ExtremeSpeed spam. Offensive teams with more varied abilities have a difficult time keeping up with all of the ExtremeSpeed spam, and the ridiculous power behind other moves taking out slower, bulkier pokemon. Stall teams don't have problems with ExtremeSpeed, but pokemon could easily bypass supposed counters with the appropriate powered up moves- for example, Arcanine could wreck face with Wild Charge against water types and wreck steels with Close Combat. Initially we were going to go for an ability clause, but this was more completely addressing the issue (2 proteans for adaptability spam isn't much better.) and also is a less complex ban, being concrete in nature instead of choosing an arbitrary line that was too much for one team.

In order to not drop a bomb on you guys again we are next looking to solve the issue of Keldeo's extreme power. Especially when backed by Bisharp's pursuit support, it's really hard to beat Keldeo without resorting to a water absorb fighting resist. Stuff like Latios and Celebi that should check Keldeo can't take Bisharp's extreme power, especially when both of the pair are backed by Adaptability. Most regular players probably know exactly what I'm talking about. If you go the viability ranks, Keldeo is high S and Bisharp is mid (low?) S. They're the only S rank pokemon besides Deoxys-S, and they pose a more direct threat. Personally I would like to ban Adaptability- it's a bit like Protean in nature, and a ban really only hurts a few mons who I personally find to be overpowered right now. Bisharp will still have tough claws which is ALMOST as good as Adaptability, and Mamoswine can switch to Refrigerate. Keldeo has a lot of other solid options to use. Terrakion will probably see a drop in viability, but it's not as good as the others with the reintroduction of Deoxys formes and Aegislash anyways. I think an Adaptability ban will fix the current issue with Keldeo, and it will further diversify the legitimate choices for an offensive ability in AAA. This is what I really want to see as a tier leader, great diversity that isn't hampered by anything being way better than everything else. I think a ban is warranted here because Adaptability Keldeo is really difficult to handle when supported correctly. The other option is to ban Keldeo outright, but I feel it's other sets deserve a chance and the other Adaptability users are a bit unhealthy as well.
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I say that Keldeo gets banned.

Okay, so Adaptability users really aren't the problem right now. It's Keldeo. Why? The problem with Keldeo is that it can literally do almost anything. Sure, the obvious adaptability Hydro Pump/Secret Sword nuke set is obvious, but let's be honest now, 2/3s of the Keldeos in the tier are Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, Tinted Lens, Lightning Rod, llusion, Mold Breaker, etc. Even without adaptability, it still hits ridiculously hard with base 129 Specs STAB boosted hydro pumps and secret swords. One of the main selling points in Keldeo is that it can singlehandedly take down stall cores of Chansey, Skarmory, Goodra, and Regirock, and Keldeo still accomplishes much of the same thing without adaptability. In fact, I'll address its other possible abilities:

Magic Bounce: Second most popular set in August (12% on usage stats iirc) and pretty much manhandles stall. You can't toxic, t-wave it, whirlwind it, will-o-wisp it, encore it, or even defog away the screens that it's sometimes hiding behind. Not to mention its base 108 speed still allows it to keep destroying offense.

Poison Heal: Extremely good set that hard counters Tough Claws Bisharp (lol @ those who run psycho cut). Sets up calm minds all over both stall and offense alike, and provided there are no dedicated counters (e.g. water absorb ghosts/fairies), this thing pretty much rolls through teams. Outspeeds the common base 100 uninvested speed tier, and has a great typing to abuse calm mind (gale wings are a problem).

Tinted Lens: Basically a giant middle finger to those people who use celebis, venusaurs, amoongusses, or water absorb fairies. Just as powerful, almost impossible to wall.

Lightning Rod and Illusion: For trolls (or really good bluffers) only.

Mold Breaker: With the rise of Water Absorb pokemon, you can simply dispatch them by breaking mold. Also useful on calm mind sets for dealing with unaware suicune.

Drizzle: Great Rain setter, Hydro pumps are extremely powerful, and unlike other rain abusers, can deal with blobs.

Swift Swim: Similar vein to Drizzle, except arguably even scarier with the additional speed and equivalent power.

Magnet pull: Best magnet puller in the tier, pretty much. And unlike some others, it can kill almost all steel types as well as having use outside of trapping.
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What I'm trying to get across, is that we KNOW keldeo is broken. It's just that banning adaptability won't actually accomplish that much, since it has so many other things it can run, almost just as effectively (or perhaps even better).
And then what about adaptability on other pokemon? Let's look at some of the most common adaptability pokemon in the tier:
Bisharp: Tough Claws achieves the exact same thing
Heracross: Tough Claws is even better on this thing
Terrakion: Adaptability boosts stone edge, but Tough Claws boosts Iron Head and Poison Jab
Latios: The one that is hurt by adaptability ban the most. Doesn't have much else to run.

Adaptability just isn't the problem. If you're going to ban that, Tough Claws might end up going as well, but really, that would take it a bit far. Not only would it discourage newcomers from playing the metagame due to the omnipresence of stall in a fun-sounding metagame, but the balance that this tier has achieved would be disturbed.

I support a Keldeo Ban, because Keldeo in the tier pretty much requires running either a gale wings pokemon or a dedicated counter, or you're pretty much screwed in this tier. It's gotten to the point where keldeo actually has a slot on every single competitive team, and a check/counter on every single competitive team. And even then, a lot of games often come down to a keldeo speed tie. If you ask me, that's the definition of broken.
(sorry if the argument was poor, im kinda tired today so...)
 
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Honchkrow is one of the best gale wing user imo, 2 priorities, knock off to annoy walls and it's not blocked by doublade
other than that, I'm not really sure jolteon is the best trapper. Mew for example can taunt to prevent whirlwind and proceed to place rocks and then kill it, or even set up some np. thunderus can also taunt and set up with np.
And wouldn't silk scarf be better on ambipom ? idk, the recoil doesn't seem worth the extra damage

Are there any usage stats for AAA ?

Also, i don't remember the last team i had without a water absorb/storm drain pokemon. Aside from when i was running jellicent.
And since i started using keldeo (mostly defensively) I haven't seen a pokemon so good in the meta, it's an easy stapple on every team and will always do some work. And as I said in an earlyer post, a lot of different keldeos are rising to the point where it has become unpredictable. It has about 4 viable moves, yet it still manages to be unpredictable.
Other thing i noticed is that keldeo counters don't really do much in general aside countering keldeo. Yet people still usualy have one.

As much as I enjoy using keldeo, I think he pretty much defines broken and centralising in this meta. So I am for a keldeo ban.
 
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motherlove said:
Are there any usage stats for AAA ?

Also, i don't remember the last team i had without a water absorb/storm drain pokemon. Aside from when i was running jellicent.
And since i started using keldeo (mostly defensively) I haven't seen a pokemon so good in the meta, it's an easy stapple on every team and will always do some work. And as I said in an earlyer post, a lot of different keldeos are rising to the point where it has become unpredictable. It has about 4 viable moves, yet it still manages to be unpredictable.
Other thing i noticed is that keldeo counters don't really do much in general aside countering keldeo. Yet people still usualy have one.

As much as I enjoy using keldeo, I think he pretty much defines broken and centralising in this meta. So I am for a keldeo ban.
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http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-08/ <--Near the top of here. You can also check moveset data if you scroll down.
 
If only Keldeo didn't have a special move that hit on physical defense, it would not be a such a huge threat. You basically have to run extremely specialized sets to counter an adaptability Keldeo and then you run into a tinted lens Keldeo and it wrecks your specifically designed adaptability counter. The bulk Keldeo has to work with is not the best but with investment it can be impossible to take out bar Gale wings. Even without speed/special attack investment Keldeo shines. If anyone can make a sweep with an adaptability Delphox since it can also hit physical defense with a special move, then I will vote to ban adaptability. Water/fighting provides incredible coverage. Victini, for example, is almost never used with only stabs...most Tini sets have coverage Bolt Strike because Fire/Psychic doesn't provide the incredible coverage that Water/Fighting does. Bisharp is a popular adaptability abuser but is easily neutered by a fast will-o-wisp or a bad type match up. Keldeo LOLs at bad type match ups... I like Keldeo but it needs to go in my opinion.
 
motherlove said:
Honchkrow is one of the best gale wing user imo, 2 priorities, knock off to annoy walls and it's not blocked by doublade
other than that, I'm not really sure jolteon is the best trapper. Mew for example can taunt to prevent whirlwind and proceed to place rocks and then kill it, or even set up some np. thunderus can also taunt and set up with np.
And wouldn't silk scarf be better on ambipom ? idk, the recoil doesn't seem worth the extra damage
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Honch doesn't get Knock Off.
 
only mandi gets knock off not honch plus even though staraptor has less attack he can still do some major damage

and also i kind of agree on keldeo ban so far the only thing that stops him is water absorb doublade but it's gimmicky and also ban suicune too with either unaware or poison heal it's impossible to kill him before he burns you with scald
 
Yeah banning adapt doesnt adress the issue. Keld just needs to go (idk why it didnt get banned and weavile did before)
 
Yet they felt no hesitation in banning weavile? I understand it was hard on offense but the reasoning we got featured "it has few viable counters" and etc.
 
simsims2800 said:
why ya gotta be so r00d (to the old council)
don't you know they're human t00
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imma marry them anyways

also yes, Adaptability isn't the problem to why Keldeo is so good, and this is apparent by Keldeo's ability to run other abilities very well (at least imo - I haven't kept up with AAA in a while)
 
can I suggest another solution: the problem isnt really protean, its the spamming of powerful moves that always go first. gale wings is honestly the same, ive been using a birdspam team and gone something like 20-2 with it (havent been counting exactly but ive only lost 2 with that team) i propose we ban extreme speed instead, along with gale wings, as both give access to extremely powerful priority moves, as that is what is broken, not protean itself.
 
Pagoose said:
can I suggest another solution: the problem isnt really protean, its the spamming of powerful moves that always go first. gale wings is honestly the same, ive been using a birdspam team and gone something like 20-2 with it (havent been counting exactly but ive only lost 2 with that team) i propose we ban extreme speed instead, along with gale wings, as both give access to extremely powerful priority moves, as that is what is broken, not protean itself.
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I agree with everything except for an Espeed ban. Without STAB Espeed is not as dangerous, and should not be banned. A Protean ban would be better than an Espeed ban.

Gale Wings is definitely one of the best abilities, and I would agree with a ban. Birdspam teams are very dangerous, as many 'counters' can't hold back more than one Gale Wings user, and others can be trapped by Magnet Pull users, most notably Keldeo (ban).
 
GrimoireGod said:
I agree with everything except for an Espeed ban. Without STAB Espeed is not as dangerous, and should not be banned. A Protean ban would be better than an Espeed ban.

Gale Wings is definitely one of the best abilities, and I would agree with a ban. Birdspam teams are very dangerous, as many 'counters' can't hold back more than one Gale Wings user, and others can be trapped by Magnet Pull users, most notably Keldeo (ban).
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On the issue of the protean ban, perhaps a complex of extreme speed+protean should be created? As you have pointed out, extreme speed isn't really broken without the stab, but I do not believe protean is broken. Idk though, maybe banning Protean is the simplest way to go. However, I do feel very strongly that we should have a ban on gale wings. The sheer power of priority brave bird coming from choice band base 125~ attacks is really broken. Steel types can be trapped by keldeo, leaving regirock, and other rock types too I guess, to be the sole "counter" to birdspam, and even it can be 2hkod by superpower/close combat from the big three of birdspam. The only other way to check it is espeed spam lol. So yeah, gale wings ban plz.
 
Tbh I think gale wings is just part of the meta, its a really good thing with a ton of power that just needs to be dealt with. For a long time, all the smart players have been able to get around flying spam even without using regirock or a bulky steel (dont tell me magnet pull is THAT common, and in that case it would be magnet pull breaking birdspam), and I dont see why we cant now.

Btw refrig entei is just amazing with all the switches sacred fire forces. Also, adamant refrig banded espeed still hits very hard. It tends to lure out all kinds of burn absorbers, suprisingly few fire types (stone edge fear or something), and a lot of things refrig espeed puts a big dent in.
 
xJownage said:
Tbh I think gale wings is just part of the meta, its a really good thing with a ton of power that just needs to be dealt with. For a long time, all the smart players have been able to get around flying spam even without using regirock or a bulky steel (dont tell me magnet pull is THAT common, and in that case it would be magnet pull breaking birdspam), and I dont see why we cant now.

Btw refrig entei is just amazing with all the switches sacred fire forces. Also, adamant refrig banded espeed still hits very hard. It tends to lure out all kinds of burn absorbers, suprisingly few fire types (stone edge fear or something), and a lot of things refrig espeed puts a big dent in.
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Yeah my only response to this yet was defensive ph keldeo lol. But sacred fire is definatly one of the best moves in the game because nobody wants to switch on that.

And I kinda agree that as powerfull as gale wing is, I always found a way to deal with it. If you really fear being trapped, just run regen doublade. Among the things i used to deal with gale wing there's intimidate hippo, zapdos (no intimidate required) doublade, Mmanectric (not too sure about this one) but every faster electric type makes a decent check like thundy. Also refrigirate Espeed. Take SR and recoil into account, and you can deal with gale wing, it's good but just a part of the meta. And it's predictable too.
 
Ok so it turns out the council is pretty for a Keldeo ban- w0rd , Kl4ng , and Adrian Marin all are pretty supportive. I also am pretty pro ban. However, I don't want to drop a bomb on you guys again, so I'm opening a unique prospect here. The idea is this: you have 24 hours to propose counter solutions to a Keldeo ban or justify why the ban should not occur. If you do not reply in this window, your posts later on complaining about the council's actions will be completely ignored and possibly subject for infractions or post deletion. Speak now or don't, but complaining about the council being ban happy later will not be ok. If good posts are made, the decision will be reevaluated. Depending on how this goes and what the resulting metagame is, we may or may not suspect something else (most likely bisharp) but note this is far away if it even exists.
 
Like i said earlier Keldeo's only counter is water absorb doublade/aegi but that's gimmicky if it opts to go for tinted lens the lati@s celebi and jellicent dies to even a resisted move and Keldeo can go to many rules like a toxic staller a magic bouncer the aformentioned tinted lens or even lightningrod or the famous adaptability so that's why i agree on the ban
 
Keldeo is constantly causing teams to use somewhat obscure counters with somewhat obscure abilities. Water Absorb ghosts or physical fighting resists are suddenly being slapped on teams for the sole purpose of checking this one extraordinarily broken wallbreaker. These mons really don't serve any other purpose than beating keldeo. I have seen stuff like water absorb zapdos and celebi, and all kinds of ghosts with water absorb as well. Many of these mons would be a lot better in a different role, but it seems that they are forced to be running these sets because they are the best mons to counter keldeo. Stuff like intimidate zapdos should be great, but it isint because it is almost always needed to check keld. Its unhealthy and kind of ridiculous.

I remember when the AAA thread was littered with people naming off obscure counters for keldeo, and I still have yet to find a true counter that is actually useful for much of anything other than keldeo, who imo is the only relevant offensive water in the tier. Nothing can even get near its power, and the ability it has to just obliterate things is outrageous. To have a wallbreaker that can sweep offensive teams lacking a gale wings is absolute nonsense and this thing should seriously just get out of the tier. This is leaving out something though.

The above literally only refers to the Adaptability set...and thats it. What it doesn't even mention is that all of its counters are obliterated by another set, and it was listed a few posts above the sheer number of sets this thing can run. From tinted lens to fuck venusaur, or mold breaker to beat all the water absorb spam, or even poison heal calm mind, this thing can obliterate almost all of its usual counters by just running a different ability.

Long story short, this thing causes teams to almost always run an obscure water absorb mon that has almost no use outside of countering it, and 80% of the time those counters are useless because of the sheer number of sets it can run and the ability for those sets to completely run over the said counters.

BANNNNNNN
 
While I don't deny that Keldeo is extremely powerful, it's not true that you *must* use Water Absorb/Storm Drain mons that have no other niche other than countering Keldeo, since Drought exists. Something like Drought Celebi or Venusaur can be used to counter Keldeo while supporting the rest of the team.
 
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