-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Almost Any Ability XY (Suspect Over: Weavile banned, Keldeo Stays)
- Thread starter Monte Cristo
- Start date
- Status
Refrigerate isn't even weaviles best set. Technician has a stronger move, better coverage, stab priority, and a way to murder things like keldeo and can do reasonable damage to suicune if it runs thunderpunch.
that said weavile is best used against full stall and gets more or less destroyed by multiple common HO mons.
Keldeo limits teambuilding. thats literally the only argument you can have against it. I think you should have suspects on more defensive abilities before suspecting keldeo.
that said weavile is best used against full stall and gets more or less destroyed by multiple common HO mons.
Keldeo limits teambuilding. thats literally the only argument you can have against it. I think you should have suspects on more defensive abilities before suspecting keldeo.
You do know what your saying makes you seem like you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about in regards to the metagame at hand and you actually don't have any idea what the fuck you're talking about?
more posts like these and less posts like the posts before my "essay" on weavile and I'll close up this and limit all discussion to the council
also weavile doesn't learn thunderpunch, further proving your ignorance
tecnician beat up has quite a bit more power than refrigerate return when using leadvile.
Thunderpunch is an easy mistake to make considering a lot of pokemon that have one punch have all three. this also only adds to reasons weavile shouldnt be banned.
I actually have used both technician and refrigerate weavile on aaa teams and can say that refrigerates main reason for being viable was dragonite. dnite was greatly nerfed by the aerilate ban thereby nerfing refrigerate weavile. technician weaviles main pitfall was not being able to take out dnite who once again was greatly nerfed. I personally have never used keldeo so I might not be the most reliable source on him but I have faced him multiple times and can say that he has quite a few HO counters. since I've never used him I cant report as well on how he does against stall but I'm sure he does very well. ofc I do know he doesnt do very well against gale skarm.
Let's see:
I'll agree that Beat Up is stronger depending on your team, but it does shit once you've lost a few pokes.
I don't see how it has better coverage. They have the same movepools no matter what ability, and you don't really have to run priority anyway.
Of course it has STAB priority. So does Refrigerate. And it's stronger.
And then following what Monte said, Weavile doesn't even get Thunderpunch.
Imo Keldeo deserves a ban because I'm pretty sure the only things that can handle it are Cress and Venusaur. Weavile might be ban worthy, but I'm personally leaning towards a Refrigerate ban.
But what do I know
leadvile. AKA first poke in. therefore beat up always hits 6 times. you could argue things could force you out/use fazing then kill another poke. first option would probably end up with your pokemon winning against theirs. second the pokemon gets a lot of damage done to it and likely gets destroyed by the pokemon you switched to. now 5 hits is barely weaker than refrigerate return so you can still hit pretty hard in case a pokemon faints or is statused. 40*1.3*1.5>40*1.5*1.5 therefore technician has stronger priority. It has better coverage because refrigerate sets look like this
Fake Out
Quick Attack/Feint
Return/Feint/Quick Attack
Knock Off
The thing about TechniVile is that there's no reason to use it. Knock Off, while weaker, provides an infinite amount more utility and long term use. Beat Up isn't exactly a reliable option, since to get Weavile in safely something usually has to die since it has piss poor bulk, making the power weaker.
I never said you had to agree with me. My arguments are based off my experiences so all(other than the bloop about thunderpunch) I said about weavile is true. I do believe it isn't broken in any way shape or form and shouldn't be banned.
Keldeo while few(if any) things can switch into it it has Gale wings skarmory as a check defensively and most pokemon with SE coverage pretty much OHKO it. I say it is broken but shouldn't be banned unless something broken from stall gets banned.
I have to say as an offense player, this isn't even close to true.
I've been running a lot of weather offense lately (mainly Sand), and I've had little to no issue with stall, without Keldeo. With very little set up (which is very easy against stall as free turns occur much more frequently) common stall cores crumble.
People really oversell stall in this metagame imo. Any competent player can break down walls such as Suicune, without major team adaptation. If you can't beat stall, either A. You're Awful or B. Your team is horridly flawed
HO is the least viable playstyle atm. this does not imply it is horribly useless.
If HO is the least viable playstyle atm, why are the two existing suspects both HO mons?
I have an idea. Serene grace choice band entei. Burns everything. actually everything. unless you have a flash fire user, entei will burn every pokemon you try to use against it. Thoughts? I'm trying it and it works pretty well.
Also a look at this:
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 409-484 (101.2 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
O____O That is power. too bad you basically just die to recoil. Max speed adamant does outspeed min speed suicune though.
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 536-632 (120.7 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I mean....I just have no words.
Sure its suicidal, but it definitely beats suicune and cresselia.
I am going to make some weather teams...lets see how this goes.
EDIT: Next time it's a warning.
Also a look at this:
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 409-484 (101.2 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
O____O That is power. too bad you basically just die to recoil. Max speed adamant does outspeed min speed suicune though.
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 536-632 (120.7 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I mean....I just have no words.
Sure its suicidal, but it definitely beats suicune and cresselia.
I am going to make some weather teams...lets see how this goes.
EDIT: Next time it's a warning.
Last edited by a moderator:
Grace entei looks intriguing on paper, could help stall teams avoid getting 6-0ed. I'm go scarf myself, so you can revenge burn stuff at +2
Also calm the fuck down m8. No pointless flaming please.
Last edited by a moderator:
Fire types and pokemon with water veil cant be burned
When's the last time you've seen Water Veil though?
It might not be common but it's true. Also a water veil dark type might be cool since it can take out cress
Edit: Flash fire is better in almost every instance tho (other than scald)
I don't
Don't bring up irrelevant/outclassed abilities then. It makes for useless discussion.
Because Monte Cristo can't beat them? Stall is obviously the thing that needs abilities banned, as there is no hyper offense at the top of the ladder. Poison Heal gives everything ridiculous recovery, Unaware stall mons stop setup from beating them, Sand Stream gives a lot of rock types good special defense etc.
Don't start pointless arguments/attack people ffs.
Anyways, two things:
First off, Pheal has been confirmed for Suspecting directly after Weavile/Keldeo. Unaware can be player around with relative ease (even as far as moldy sweepers, which should really be more common tbh, might talk about this more later), and Sand Stream, while good for rock types, can hinder other members of stall teams with residual damage.
Secondly, it's been said time and time again that a skilled player with a good HO/balance team can easily break common stall cores. I'm gonna try to find some replays of my Sand HO team tearing apart stall with relative ease, but I really don't know what I have saved so bear with me.
A really gimmicky yet fun set I've been playing around with:
Hydreigon @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
Move 1: Focus Energy
Move 2: Draco Meteor
Move 3: Fire Blast
Move 4: Flash Cannon
Nature: Modest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Obviously the premise of this set is to set up a focus energy then spam everything with guaranteed 2.25x critical hit Draco Meteors, falling back on coverage only when needed. To give you an idea of it's power:
252+ SpA Sniper Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 298-352 (42.3 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sniper Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune on a critical hit: 414-487 (102.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If it's doing that much to suicune and chansey you can imagine that everything else is blown away by a neutral Draco Meteor or super effective coverage move. Obviously there are a lot of drawbacks to this set though, you're weak to both -ate ability moves, anything faster will be doing big chunks and against offensive teams it's extremely difficult to get the boost and actually do anything. Against stall though, this is a godsend as even unaware users are smashed hard by critical hits, meaning this is very difficult to cope with.
Sorry about the long post, lost track as I was writing
Hydreigon @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
Move 1: Focus Energy
Move 2: Draco Meteor
Move 3: Fire Blast
Move 4: Flash Cannon
Nature: Modest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Obviously the premise of this set is to set up a focus energy then spam everything with guaranteed 2.25x critical hit Draco Meteors, falling back on coverage only when needed. To give you an idea of it's power:
252+ SpA Sniper Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 298-352 (42.3 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sniper Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune on a critical hit: 414-487 (102.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If it's doing that much to suicune and chansey you can imagine that everything else is blown away by a neutral Draco Meteor or super effective coverage move. Obviously there are a lot of drawbacks to this set though, you're weak to both -ate ability moves, anything faster will be doing big chunks and against offensive teams it's extremely difficult to get the boost and actually do anything. Against stall though, this is a godsend as even unaware users are smashed hard by critical hits, meaning this is very difficult to cope with.
Sorry about the long post, lost track as I was writing
read the post above you -.-
i really cant think of great moldy sweepers since you cant change megas abilities. there arent any crazy sweepers in this meta so i really dont know. Multiscale gyara? mega evo and get moldy?
Yo nice assumptions, by the way here's what I think about the skill level on the ladder compared to OMPL:
.....
I'm not saying everybody on the ladder is bad but most of the overly competetive and good players migrated to OMPL in order to really test their skills, so the ladder is really an inaccurate assumption of the current metagame.
Also, where did you get the assumption I can't beat them, would like to face me or get one of your ladder friends you praise so highly to battle? Because otherwise that is quite the unsupported and foolish hypothesis. I clearly explained my thoughts on Weavile and Keldeo is already well regarded as broken among top AAA players, I simply cleared up the misconceptions in that post so people know why Weavile is such a threat (if they didn't already)
Just because you can't build any good hyper offense or you don't see any doesn't mean its impossible, there have been examples of good offensive wallbreakers posted all over this thread.
Sorry I acted a bit out of line, but I wasn't talking about how stupid a person was (i.e. flaming) I was talking about their ACTING ignorant in a specific field and thus should probably get information, I used terrible wording by my intent was not a personal attack, it was a "pls get better before you post in a suspect convo" I assure you I won't post like that again.
at this point I would like you to lock the thread. forever. and maybe we can talk about a new one
- Status