Ladder Almost Any Ability


Lots of people have raised concerns regarding Suicune and Snorlax and their effect on the metagame. Both are huge threats for similar reasons - Poison Heal, in tandem with their immense bulk and sweeping capabilities make them behemoths that are very difficult to take down after a few boosts. Both are quite potent offensively as well, as Snorlax's Facade takes a solid chunk out of even the sturdiest resists or physical walls, while Suicune's Scald is capable of crippling most of its checks via burn. This means they both require rather specialised counters when team building, and thus it can be argued that they heavily restrict creativity. Because of this, Suicune and Snorlax are now suspect by AAA.

Since these two have been a huge part of AAA since its inception this suspect (and potentially future ones, we'll see) will be decided by a community vote rather than a council one to determine whether Snorlax or Suicune are banworthy - to vote, you will need to achieve a ladder requirement on the AAA ladder during the suspect period, during which time Snorlax and Suicune will be temporarily banned. The details are as follows:

  • The suspect will last from now up until 12 PM EST, 15th of August.
  • The suspect will take place on Pokemon Showdown!'s AAA ladder.
  • To qualify, you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2600, with COIL's B value being 6.
  • The account on which you ladder for the requirement must have the term "SSS" (Suicune Snorlax Suspect) in the username, all three S' being together. Any account without SSS in the name will not be valid to place a vote.
  • After having achieved the requirement, private message me a screenshot containing proof of the ownership of your account and your account's COIL value, in addition to your vote.
  • Your vote will be a Yes, No, or Abstain answer to both "Should Snorlax be banned?" and "Should Suicune be banned?".
  • At the end of the vote, if Snorlax or Suicune obtain at least a 60% pro-ban majority, they will be banned.
The COIL settings are reasonably low compared to most suspects to accommodate the rather inactive ladder. Here is an approximation of how many games you will need to play to qualify, based on your GXE:
Code:
GXE    N
90    13
85    16
80    20
75    30
70    55
It will be very difficult to get the requirements if your GXE is below 70, and near impossible under 68.
To PM me, click on my forum avatar and then select "create a conversation"

That's all guys, feel free to post your thoughts on Suicune and Snorlax in this thread to try and sway other peoples' opinions.

The Immortal
 
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Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
I'll chime in now and edit tomorrow,



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Snorlax and Suicune have both been passive pains when it comes to teambuilding. Both of them are very similar when it comes to a couple of things, first of all they're both insanely bulky. And both of them are bulky on different sides, while Suicune can set up on almost all physical attackers Snorlax has an easy time handling special attackers. What I really hate about these two pokemon is that they only have to out wait their checks, because so few of them directly OHKO them. Suicune will eventually widdle down its checks either because they can't kill it or scald will burn them.

Suicune is very annoying because you're never sure what you want to switch in. Physical attacks absolutely hate scald, fearing the burn they'll easily become setup bait for Suicune. Or Special attackers who will struggle to really dent suicune after a calm mind. And that's the heart of the problem, unless you're running specific checks like Desolate Land Heatran/Victini you're going to have a difficult time killing Suicune. It's so effective at forcing its checks to out-stall it rather than kill it, I really can't think of anything that directly switches into Suicune and then threatens it instantly besides Victini. Even then you're not going to have a hard time scouting and out-stalling Victini's bolt strikes.

After one turn with a little, luck counters become checks... and checks become setup-fodder

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability burned Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 102-120 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 162-191 (40 - 47.2%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+6 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 250-295 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal (Sheer force has an easier time, but it's not like Thundurus like scald)
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 166-198 (41 - 49%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 141-171 (34.9 - 42.3%) -- approx. 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

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Snorlax is different, rather than simply beating it's checks because they fear scald, Snorlax's checks really fucking fear Facade. Snorlax is weak to one thing, and one thing only, and that's fighting types. And... How many fighting types aren't banned that are left to threaten Snorlax? Not a lot. Even as a resisted hits, the few fighting types that resist normal, despise taking it. Lucario and Cobalion are the only two that really resist it, and the former takes 70-80% from uninvested earthquake and the latter isn't doing anything to Snorlax unless it's offensive or Sacred sword (lol). So what are we really left with here? Poor counters which eventually drop regardless or are unable to kill these pokemon because they're both so insanely bulky and powerful with some of the best combinations of moves, stats and typing I've ever seen. The fact that people run Trick Pecha to deal with these pokemon before they're overwhelmed really speak for itself.

Get these things out of here, I'm tired of running Desolate land Heatran/Victini/gourgeist on all my teams.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Now that I have reqs I feel its my duty as AAA Council to offer an opinion:

Suicune and Snorlax are similar on the surface. They are bulky set up mons that abuse poison heal and strong natural bulk to each be one of the best wincons in the meta. However, there are plenty of bulky set up mons that can abuse poison heal, but are nowhere near as good as these two (Cresselia, Diancie, Mew, etc). This brings me to my point: Both Suicune and Snorlax provide distinct advantages that make each of them "Broken" in their own way.

For Suicune, this advantage comes in Scald. Scald, being the most annoying move ever created, can turn what would be checks into fried chicken. It essentially prevents you from switching in any physical attacker, which would be the only way of beating it as it gets more and more Calm Minds up. Also, it allows you to weaken and pretty much outstall defensive checks. I have a couple teams with a damn Unaware Celebi to check Cune and Manaphy, but a smart player can just Scald burn my Celebi, switch out, and play the rest of the match trying to wear it down enough where the Cune will eventually beat it. Scald turns what is honestly a bad play (Scalding an Unaware Celebi, Gyarados etc) into a game-saving play. Having Scald to go along with everything else puts Suicune over the top.

Snorlax is different. Rather than Scald, it gets Facade. This offers a different advantage: it just plows through any checks. Facade doesn't really care about your resists, and its naturally strong enough to plow through many Unaware mons. In addition, Snorlax just possesses the natural bulk to take ridiculous hits. Its bulk is just crazy, if I wasn't lazy I'd go get some frustrating calcs but if you've ever played with/against Snorlax you know exactly what I'm talking about. Snorlax's STAB and poison boosted Facade combined with its ridiculous bulk make it too much for the meta.

Idk if Klang is having us PM him instead of posting here to try to prevent ppl from just voting what other people voted.... but since he didn't outright say anything and I'm just my opinion was just made pretty clear: Ban Snorlax and Suicune for the betterment of the meta. Teambuilding will open up as players will not always have to dedicate a team slot to a hard counter (which is hard to come by) to each of them.
 
I don't have time to gather reqs but I will still post my views as I have been wanting this suspect to happen for a long long time.

Well, I am not going to lie I hate both of them, being forced to run mons which aren't good in most of the matchups like unaware celebi or desolate victini(not that bad, its just that tinted is always much much better) is just bs. Also being forced to straight away switch your checks as soon as they are in the field(especially in case of snorlax) is just a momentum drain and causes a lot of misplays if you are not careful. Most frustrating thing is snorlax is not even that passive before setting up as STAB facade hurts like a lot.

Don't get me wrong by no way both of them are unplayable or something, in fact if your opponent doesn't play well they could be a liability. But still they are so splashable on teams and you generally find 1 in 2 teams pretty easily, personally I feel they are kind of centralising as if don't pack atleast a couple of checks to them you are straight away going to be swept.

Also as a bonus the whole meta will become a lot more offensive.
 
bit late to the party here, just wanna know whether it was considered that ph should be suspected instead
ph itself isn't inherently suspect worthy but it is a pretty dumb ability to play around, and cune and lax aren't the big threats they are and still add health to the meta w/o ph
ik the precedent is towards banning mons instead, just wondering, there has been talk of banning abilities as well (like adapt, i think a few mentioned)
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
bit late to the party here, just wanna know whether it was considered that ph should be suspected instead
ph itself isn't inherently suspect worthy but it is a pretty dumb ability to play around, and cune and lax aren't the big threats they are and still add health to the meta w/o ph
ik the precedent is towards banning mons instead, just wondering, there has been talk of banning abilities as well (like adapt, i think a few mentioned)
yeah, we all weighed our opinions on PH being banned, which was far less divided then i initially thought, but after discussing it with each other for a bit, we kinda decided that we need to have a consensus decision when we come into banning stuff, as otherwise everyone gets confused, and we all end up debating on if its the mon or the ability thats broken, when in reality its just personal bias that such events occur, and causes us to take an extra month to just decide whats the issue. this is still in the process of discussion though, and albeit we have no definitive guideline yet, we are making progress. as of right now we are considering just banning mons rather then abilities, because we feel that abilities need to be in the uncompetative/overpowered line like protean, parental bond, and stuff like arena trap, wonder guard, and shadow tag to be banworthy, because this is a meta centered around abilities mostly. however, such a decision is a very serious one, so we might not go through with it for a while-if at all, especially since we still have some doubts that we have to discuss about (for example, adapt makes a lot of pokemon really good, but does that make it banworthy? or should we just ban every mon it breaks) its a very serious issue to discuss and we don't want to rush into it. just as an update for you guys on whats going down.

so basically, this means that we MIGHT end up banning dragonite+noivern, and unbanning aerialate. however, we need to take this one step at a time.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Screen Shot 2016-08-13 at 08.33.23.png


confirming as sss gos

I'm going to get it out of the way and say that I vote ban on both. But I wanted to talk about it for a little as well.

So my problem was never specifically with Suicune and Snorlax. I think Suicune is rather healthy with its Unaware set being an excellent set up checks, rest talk with scald and roar is pretty great tbh. With the ability to survive for long, long battles and keep set-up at checks - we all know how great unaware Suicune is *cough cough* Inheritance. And Snorlax would probably not even be viable without PH, and that seems like a truth more than anything. If we removed PH then Snorlax would probably drop deeply into the C rank and then be forgotten even though it has... like, zero utility outside of PH.

So... Poison heal... My problem was more with Poison heal, and what happen Poison heal actually does. Now it has obvious cons like you're going to need Toxic orb, which can be knocked off and you're not exactly increasing your fire power. But the pros blow those out of the water. PH gives you constant 12% recovery, completely negating Stealth rock damage really. You gain an immunity to all forms of status, becoming and excellent sponge. You're far bulkier, a pokemon would have to do a minimum of 62% a pokemon with Protect and Poison Heal, you do 50% the first turn the pokemon with Poison heal is really just taking 38% damage after healing 12%. With Protect you end up at 26%. You see where I'm going with this? Good.

In reality when laddering I see a lot of Poison heal, pokemon are simply replacing Suicune and Snorlax, and although they can't do Cune and Lax's job perfectly they have other niches. Zygarde has Dragon tail, Manaphy has Knock off and Tail glow, Blastoise has Rapid spin, Dragonite has Dragon tail, Cresselia has Psyshock and insane bulk and Vaporeon has Wish, Baton pass and Heal bell. Generally the problem I have with PH is how insanely difficult they are to pressure, status doesn't work, hazards rarely work and they're significantly bulkier. So if anything I'd prefer a ban on PH, but the ladder is pretty new right now, so it might stabilize itself.

As a council member (hue) I'll be voting ban on both, but we should look into PH eventually
 
Just a reminder that anyone who's achieved reqs but has yet to cast their vote has roughly 3 hours left to PM me their proof of account ownership, ranking, and vote. Any vote placed after 12 PM EST will be considered invalid. I will tally up the valid votes tomorrow and post the results once I get some free time. If you think you've cast your vote already be sure to check the list below just in case something might have gone wrong on my end or yours.

 
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I somehow still have 1430 in AAA, so I'll pitch in.

Suicune: Okay, I'll be a minority on this, but I don't think Suicune is much of an issue. Yes, its typing is great. Yes, its movepool is abusable. yes, its bulk is silly. However, I still think it's way too passive to be overly-threatening. There is Calm Mind, but you need a HIGH amount of boosts in order to become a potential sweeper. Scald and Poison Heal are incredibly annoying, but banning one Pokemon because of it is absurd.

Also, its bulk is without question great, but is it really too bulky? In a tier where there are definitely still Pokemon with better defensive stats and can use almost any ability imaginable, I think 100/115/115 bulk, while still impressive, isn't impossible to break though. Even with Scald and Calm Mind, a good team can forge several ways to run over Suicune, whether it be Water Absorb + pals, phazing, Heal Bell, outstalling, or boosting yourself up to break the barrier, Suicune still has various possible checks that can remove it from the equation. I'm by no means saying for people to get good and just run x or y, but when something has such a wide and vague amount of checks, you start to question if it really is overpowered or not.

Defensively, I agree it's powerful and I can go with the argument of overcentralization. However, I think it's too weak and passive and perfectly beatable to be considered so horrifying compared to other potential monsters that comes from AAA. Sorry, but No Ban for Suicune.

Snorlax: Now this is overpowered. I ladder with PHLax and know from personal experience that this is a nightmare to face. Not only can it rarely ever be killed at full health by anything unboosted due to its unfair bulk, but unlike Suicune, this thing is an immediate threat to anything because of Facade. Seriously, unless you're a dedicated wall or a Ghost type (which is dealt with by using a coverage move of your choice), it will take out a Pokemon on your team almost for free. Facade is that powerful. However, the final nail in the coffin is Curse. It not only makes Snorlax virtually unkillable, but also boosts the already-crazy power of Facade with no negative repercussions.

Immediate threat, difficult to kill, difficult to wall, provides an easy wincon, splashable, requiring very obscure ways to defeat it, I really can't bring up a decent reason to keep it with all of these trailing behind it. Even though I love Snorlax on my team and would never replace it, I admit it has to go. Rest in peace big guy: Ban Snorlax.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Alright so AAA about to be really different tbh, with those 2 gone, teambuilding will really expand. I imagine the meta becoming actually more offensive as you don't have to worry as much about dedicated checks to those. Alternatively, Snorlax was really annoying to stall, so maybe that will even do better.

As much as I'd like to see discussion about how the meta should and will change, we all know this thread is RIP status, so I'm just going to go ahead and ask for what it seems like everyone wants: Ban No Guard

Everyone that I've discussed this with agrees. No Guard is really obnoxious to play against, and can definitely fall into the uncompetitive category. No Guard Mew spams Paralysis and Confusion with 100bp moves, as well as Hypnosis. Mew is the main abuser, and honestly the only reason people want this ban. Yes other things have Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch, but none of them have the combined bulk, power, speed, and general utility of Mew. Honestly, from what I've seen the opinion on this is so ubiquitous and AAA is getting so inactive that I would just call for a council vote on the matter, rather than another suspect to just get like 10 voters lol.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Alright so AAA about to be really different tbh, with those 2 gone, teambuilding will really expand. I imagine the meta becoming actually more offensive as you don't have to worry as much about dedicated checks to those. Alternatively, Snorlax was really annoying to stall, so maybe that will even do better.

As much as I'd like to see discussion about how the meta should and will change, we all know this thread is RIP status, so I'm just going to go ahead and ask for what it seems like everyone wants: Ban No Guard

Everyone that I've discussed this with agrees. No Guard is really obnoxious to play against, and can definitely fall into the uncompetitive category. No Guard Mew spams Paralysis and Confusion with 100bp moves, as well as Hypnosis. Mew is the main abuser, and honestly the only reason people want this ban. Yes other things have Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch, but none of them have the combined bulk, power, speed, and general utility of Mew. Honestly, from what I've seen the opinion on this is so ubiquitous and AAA is getting so inactive that I would just call for a council vote on the matter, rather than another suspect to just get like 10 voters lol.
i dont know how i feel about this to be honest. on one end you are right, its uncompetative-like chatter. but im going to say no, but actually twist this and ask this: is it noguard thats broken...or is dynamic punch uncompetative. oh god, i can hear the people at my door now "A ATTACK BANWORTHY IN AAA?!?!!? LET ALONE A RANDOM ONE?!!? LMFAO NICE TRY BUDDY" but no, hear me out. look, i get the argument that dynamic punch is restricted to an ability unlike chatter, but chatter is restricted to one mediocre pokemon. lets be serious here. 8 pp is more then enough to get a few free turns to set up. and the worst part about dpunch is you NEVER see it coming. i cant tell you how many people fall for my dnite because they couldnt handle dpunch sub DD dnite expecting it to be espeed.

"but lcass" ihear you guys saying "dynamic punch restricts you to a terrible downgraded ability!" well yeah...and chatter restricts you to a terrible bird pokemon that doesnt have a stat past 95.. while dynamic punch has well over half viable users of dynamic punch.

"but lcass" you say, "dynamic punch has immunities!" yes...and 40 base power more then chatter does. which is a significant boost of power. and fighting type isnt even a bad coverage type...

"But lcass.." you say again "8 pp is easy to stall out by switching" yes...but why do you think switching is a BAD thing in pokemon? because it gives your opponent setup chances to sweep or break through counters if you stay in.

"but lcass...what about zap cannon!" zap cannon isnt nearly as bad as dynamic punch, as paralisis' fail chance is significantly less then dynamic punches...it can be annoying, but without confusion, its just not worth banning."but what about confuse ra-" dont even go there man. you know as well as i do why these moves are banworthy, and its more then just inflicting confusion.

so after hearing my "humorous" (more like dad humor) reasoning, surely i hope people can at least SEE my point of veiw, and the councilmembers actually consider something so preposterous.
 
It got banned from Mix and Mega and from No Guard Galaxy because you can hax past any non-Ghost check with some luck, and Ghosts aren't good enough to wall Dynamic Punch abusers when they include stuff like Conkeldurr with a hideously powerful Knock Off. No Guard isn't broken or uncompetitive, but Dynamic Punch backed by it is.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
Alright so AAA about to be really different tbh, with those 2 gone, teambuilding will really expand. I imagine the meta becoming actually more offensive as you don't have to worry as much about dedicated checks to those. Alternatively, Snorlax was really annoying to stall, so maybe that will even do better.

As much as I'd like to see discussion about how the meta should and will change, we all know this thread is RIP status, so I'm just going to go ahead and ask for what it seems like everyone wants: Ban No Guard

Everyone that I've discussed this with agrees. No Guard is really obnoxious to play against, and can definitely fall into the uncompetitive category. No Guard Mew spams Paralysis and Confusion with 100bp moves, as well as Hypnosis. Mew is the main abuser, and honestly the only reason people want this ban. Yes other things have Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch, but none of them have the combined bulk, power, speed, and general utility of Mew. Honestly, from what I've seen the opinion on this is so ubiquitous and AAA is getting so inactive that I would just call for a council vote on the matter, rather than another suspect to just get like 10 voters lol.
You say ban No Guard and then literally on the next lines you say "Mew is the main abuser, and honestly the only reason people want this ban. Yes other things have Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch, but none of them have the combined bulk, power, speed, and general utility of Mew." I think you meant to say ban Mew. No Guard itself is not uncompetitive at all and I do not agree with it being suspected. However, Mew I can agree with. Not only because of what you said, but because Mew can run several viable sets and the unpredictability adds to the issue.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
You say ban No Guard and then literally on the next lines you say "Mew is the main abuser, and honestly the only reason people want this ban. Yes other things have Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch, but none of them have the combined bulk, power, speed, and general utility of Mew." I think you meant to say ban Mew. No Guard itself is not uncompetitive at all and I do not agree with it being suspected. However, Mew I can agree with. Not only because of what you said, but because Mew can run several viable sets and the unpredictability adds to the issue.
But I think people want it to be banned because it is uncompetitive, not because it is broken, so we lose the least by banning no guard or dynamic punch. banning mew removes a legitimate mon from the metagame (unless you are arguing mew is broken and not uncompetitive)
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
But I think people want it to be banned because it is uncompetitive, not because it is broken, so we lose the least by banning no guard or dynamic punch. banning mew removes a legitimate mon from the metagame (unless you are arguing mew is broken and not uncompetitive)
So you want to remove a legitimate ability? No Guard is quite viable and not uncompetitive or broken on several Pokemon. The issue here is Mew as a whole, it's base stats and move pool combined with No Guard. No Guard should not be banned over Mew if you're arguing that Mew is only major abuser. Feel free to argue that No Guard is uncompetitive on multiple Pokemon if you believe that to be the case.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
You say ban No Guard and then literally on the next lines you say "Mew is the main abuser, and honestly the only reason people want this ban. Yes other things have Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch, but none of them have the combined bulk, power, speed, and general utility of Mew." I think you meant to say ban Mew. No Guard itself is not uncompetitive at all and I do not agree with it being suspected. However, Mew I can agree with. Not only because of what you said, but because Mew can run several viable sets and the unpredictability adds to the issue.
I don't agree. "No Guard isn't uncompetitive at all" just isn't true IMO. You're kind of connecting the recent suspect to this. Rather than banning Poison Heal, we banned Snorlax and Suicune, which I agreed with. This is because Poison Heal was neither broken nor uncompetitive on its face. I guess reading my post, I kind of played right into what you're saying, making it seem like Mew is the problem, rather than No Guard, so I get your point. Allow me to expand to explain why I don't think Mew is a problem, rather No Guard is just simply an uncompetitive ability. Ok so Mew has Zap Cannon Dynamic Punch parafusion, obnoxious stuff. What else has this? Probopass, Nosepass, Ampharos, the Regis, and Deoxys. I'll pass on the Pass's (sorry) but lets look at something as bad as Ampharos. With No Guard and Z Cannon & D Punch Ampharos can turn what would be a check (tbh most mons) into a worthless mon. Switch Meloetta into Ampharos? Now its just paralyzed and confused, and its not doing anything. Send in Chansey, Grass Types, etc. etc, they all just end up dazed and confused. You can't really attack it at this point. And that's Ampharos. Lets move to the Regis: Regirock I'll ignore for obvious reasons. Regice could actually be annoying as hell with No Guard. Spamming Blizzard with a decent SpA and STAB forces an opp to switch into a resist or special wall. What does Regice then do? It just paralyzes and confuses you, now you essentially can't do anything back, and you pretty much are forced to switch into something else, to have the same thing happen. Registeel does not have the decent power Regice has, but it has the bulk and utility similar to Mew. The thing can spam you with paralysis and rocks, while setting up Rocks as well. I'll move to Deo-D and Deo-S. With these two, you're enhancing one part of what Mew does while hurting another. No Guard Deo-D would be the ultimate uncompetitive wall. I'm not really sure how I'd kill it without a Poison Heal user TBH, and even then, confusion is still annoying as hell. It's so bulky, you can't OHKO it. And with parafusion, you can't set up, and you can't hit two moves in a row before it recovers, if you can even move at all. Deo-S on the other hand leaves you extremely vulnerable. Imagine it like hazard lead Deo-S, but instead of getting guaranteed hazards up, it is getting guaranteed status and confusion on likely multiple mons, as well as hazards.

To sum up, really any of these users are uncompetitive with No Guard. They take what would be a check, and just turn it into a sitting duck that pretty much can only hurt itself. Another thing it does is a repeating hell: you pretty much have to switch into something else as you now have a useless mon. Problem is, as you switch out, you're probably just getting the next mon paralyzed... and repeat... and repeat.

This isn't even getting into No Guard Hypnosis and other things, which isn't necessarily uncompetitive, but it sure as hell isn't a fantastic thing for the meta, especially on top of ZapPunch.

Anyway, I don't really see a huge reason for this argument. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe pretty much every AAA player is in agreement that No Guard should just go. (Besides Lcass, honestly I'd be fine with banning the moves too, but there's some weird tradition to uphold with bans and it doesn't seem like that would get through). No Guard isn't really used for anything besides ZapPunch. No Guard Gengar used to be a thing, but I can't remember the last time I've seen it. Do we really want to keep ZapPunch in the meta, and ban Mew, just to save something like No Guard Gengar? I think that's really unnecessary. Then again, I've never been big on following the whole ban standard rules and what not, this seems to just make obvious sense to be best for the meta.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
im sorry, but even WITH no guard, dynamic punch, and hypnosis, and its mixture of viable sets, i dont see mew being in the same limelight as mons like snorlax, suicune, shaymin, and keldeo/terrakion. mew has multiple viable sets...but thats about it. 100 base is a good benchmark, but its nothing to write home about, if anything, pure psychic typing only makes mew want to be bulkier or stronger, considering 100/100/100 is good bulk and all, but repeated super effective attacks, and lack of good resistive stab coverage, really leaves psychic types at a major disadvantage, and really needs them to adapt severely defensively...and this goes offensively too. of course mew is a major threat, but not NEARLY at those levels.

lastly, i want to talk to everyone about chatter+chatot, because i feel like this issue is similar to noguard in what action we should be taking. which would be to ban the "more optimal" method that makes the most sense, and has the least impact. this immidiately throws no guard out of the equation, as ive said, without dynamic punch, the ability is tame. annoying, but tame. this leaves dynamic punch vs mew. and lets be honest, without dynamic punch, mew would be tame also. alongside being a "Average" mon in general even WITH noguard...which leaves us with dynamic punch...which is banning a move, and is frowned upon...

or can we bypass this with a bit of creativity?
yeah...i swear, its almost like im asking to be beaten up by enraged people these past few days, but again please hear me out. okay, so heres how this goes. we have deemed chatter in the past to be banworthy, but changed our minds for simplicity and we are currently talking about how dynamic punch is uncompetative(tell me all you want noguard is the main focus, this conversation wouldnt even exist without dynamic punches influence) what do these have in common...moreso...with a certain clause. swagger. "ugh...lcass is going to be trying to bunch togeather 3 moves in a banlist due to confusion chance" actually...yes...thats exactly what im trying to do. because they have stuff in common. moreso, they have "benefits" to spamming the move blindly, and forcing people to rely on luck to break past. and here comes the crazy part...lets take a look.

okay...so lets think about it. dynamic punch is used via a outside source regardless on if it be a ability or mon(in this case no guard), that utilizes confusion, and rapid succession damage(dynamic punches damage and confusion damage) to slowly force the opponent to either kill themselves, or allow the mon to have turns to set up and sweep you when they originally shouldnt(for example, dd noguard dragonite DD sweeping, or mew sd/np sweeping).

okay...so next up...chatter is used via a outside source regardless on if it be a ability or mon(in this case chatot and gale wings), that utilizes confusion, and rapid succession damage(chatters damage+confusion damage) to slowly force the opponent to either kill themselves, or allow the mon to have turns to set up and sweep you when they originally shouldnt(chatot nasty plots and sweeps).

and heres the kicker...not only is this true for the first two...but i shit you not... low and behold...
SWAGGER is used via a outside source regardless on if it be a ability or mon(in this case prankster), that utilizes confusion, and rapid succession damage(attack raises the damage confusion deals) to slowly force the opponent to either kill themselves, or allow the mon to have turns to set up and sweep you when they originally shouldnt(for example, prankster klefki setting up a sub and twaving you).

the comparasons between these three, and these three alone are INSANE. literally cannot be replicated with any other move. and all three have been discussed to be uncompetative so you get where im going at? im saying we do the insane option of changing swagger clause...to the dynamic chattering swag clause...name still in progress.

now if you dont mind, ill be hiding in my basement waiting for the angry OMers who are coming to attack me.
 
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The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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No Guard isn't really used for anything besides ZapPunch. No Guard Gengar used to be a thing, but I can't remember the last time I've seen it. Do we really want to keep ZapPunch in the meta, and ban Mew, just to save something like No Guard Gengar? I think that's really unnecessary. Then again, I've never been big on following the whole ban standard rules and what not, this seems to just make obvious sense to be best for the meta.
This is incorrect. Here are the usage stats for No Guard, for only the top 20 Pokemon:

Gengar: 11.2%
Victini: 3.7%
Mew: 20%
Zapdos: 16.4%
Dragonite: 6.9%
Raikou: 7.2%
Thundurus: 1.9%

Pretty sure if you add the raw numbers up they would outnumber Mew.

As for the rest of your post, fine, other stuff might be able to run it less effectively than Mew. I still do not agree with banning No Guard. If the problem isn't Mew specifically then DynamicPunch should be banned and not No Guard. Unlike No Guard, DynamicPunch legitimately has no uses outside of creating an uncompetitive meta.
 
This is incorrect. Here are the usage stats for No Guard, for only the top 20 Pokemon:

Gengar: 11.2%
Victini: 3.7%
Mew: 20%
Zapdos: 16.4%
Dragonite: 6.9%
Raikou: 7.2%
Thundurus: 1.9%

Pretty sure if you add the raw numbers up they would outnumber Mew.

As for the rest of your post, fine, other stuff might be able to run it less effectively than Mew. I still do not agree with banning No Guard. If the problem isn't Mew specifically then DynamicPunch should be banned and not No Guard. Unlike No Guard, DynamicPunch legitimately has no uses outside of creating an uncompetitive meta.
That's not entirely fair- dynamic punch is a 100 bp fighting move with no drawbacks, so Pokemon do have reason to run it. Dragonite, for instance, could run it alongside hurricane, or Tyranitar as fighting coverage (pairs well with stone edge), or on Jirachi for fighting type coverage. I mean, it's not going to be exceptional if you aren't using the confusion, but that doesn't mean it's useless.

This being said, however, I think that dynamic punch does deserve a suspect. Mew is only the primary culprit- there are quite a few Pokemon capable of abusing it to reasonable effectiveness and similar uncompetitiveness, like Gengar (mixed, but it already runs no guard and this gets more free turns), Metagross (Who doesn't even always need no guard due to it commonly boosting with hone claws), Blaziken (who can then spam SD)...
 
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Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
This is incorrect. Here are the usage stats for No Guard, for only the top 20 Pokemon:

Gengar: 11.2%
Victini: 3.7%
Mew: 20%
Zapdos: 16.4%
Dragonite: 6.9%
Raikou: 7.2%
Thundurus: 1.9%

Pretty sure if you add the raw numbers up they would outnumber Mew.

As for the rest of your post, fine, other stuff might be able to run it less effectively than Mew. I still do not agree with banning No Guard. If the problem isn't Mew specifically then DynamicPunch should be banned and not No Guard. Unlike No Guard, DynamicPunch legitimately has no uses outside of creating an uncompetitive meta.
Ok so out of the 7 mons you listed, making up 67.3% of No Guard users, 5 have acccess to Zap Cannon or Dynamic Punch. Only Victini (Inferno + Coverage spam) and Thundurus (Thunder spam) do not. Granted, Gengar doesn't really use Dynamic Punch even though it has access, so I'll even give you that benefit of the doubt. That still leaves 4 of the 7 mons being Zap Cannon/Dynamic Punch/Both users, making up 50.5% of the 67.3% you listed. tbh I don't really know the command to see the top 20 users, but just going off of the mons you gave me, that is Zap/Punch being used by about 75% of No Guard instances, that's a lot. Thus, No Guard IS a problem, but like I said, I'm absolutely fine with a Dynamic Punch and/or Zap Cannon ban, as that solves the major issue with No Guard. I just want something done.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
No reason to have Dynamic Punch in any metagame, guaranteed 100% confusion is too much for any metagame. It's been proven before, with Chatter in BH, AAA, Stabmons ect. and Dynamic Punch in a multitude of metagames, like Mix and Mega and now AAA. I see no reason for this to be made a huge thing, No guard makes up such a tiny percentage of the metagame it would hardly be noticed, and don't mistake that for it not being broken. Dynamic Punch is uncompetitive, it should have been banned when Chatter was banned. I say we simply quick-ban it, because its uncompetitive as fuck, and really annoying when you do face it.
 
Ok, since absolutely nothing came of that, let's talk about a recently popularized threat: PH mons that aren't snorlax/suicune

So far the most common ones (new) I'm seeing are Manaphy and Diancie. Both are running setup and both are extremely threatening. Diancie is running calm mind max defense with protect and two attacks and manaphhy has two sets. One manaphy set is the tail glow set which leans more towards the offensive side, running enough speed to outpace Tyranitar, it invests the rest of the EVs in HP and special attack. The other is a mirror of PH Suicune minus roar but with the addition of acid armor/other coverage move of choice.

Since manaphy was recently nommed for S rank. I was wondering what you guys are using to deal with it.

I personally haven't built many teams recently and certainly none taking manaphy into account (as in, packing good checks)

Off the top of my head, the following mons seem like they could check it.


PH virizion could set up alongside it and kill after a SD or one or two calm minds. It also has the added benefit of checking Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Blastoise. It's probably the most reliable counter to it provided it has its orb activated.


Strong electric types like Raikou and Thundurus can kill it once they're in and can probably take one hit on the switchin, making them soft counters/good checks.


The unaware skill swap chansey should be able to deal with this fine, however getting evio knocked off would suck. It's a better counter to the defensive one.


Goodra and Desotran can switch in and phase it out.


PH tail glow mana can run energy ball to beat opposing manaphy and regen can U-turn to bring a glass canon in safely to KO.

So, what PH mons are you guys using now? What are you using to beat manaphy and diancie?
 
Ok, since absolutely nothing came of that, let's talk about a recently popularized threat: PH mons that aren't snorlax/suicune

So far the most common ones (new) I'm seeing are Manaphy and Diancie. Both are running setup and both are extremely threatening. Diancie is running calm mind max defense with protect and two attacks and manaphhy has two sets. One manaphy set is the tail glow set which leans more towards the offensive side, running enough speed to outpace Tyranitar, it invests the rest of the EVs in HP and special attack. The other is a mirror of PH Suicune minus roar but with the addition of acid armor/other coverage move of choice.

Since manaphy was recently nommed for S rank. I was wondering what you guys are using to deal with it.

I personally haven't built many teams recently and certainly none taking manaphy into account (as in, packing good checks)

Off the top of my head, the following mons seem like they could check it.


PH virizion could set up alongside it and kill after a SD or one or two calm minds. It also has the added benefit of checking Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Blastoise. It's probably the most reliable counter to it provided it has its orb activated.


Strong electric types like Raikou and Thundurus can kill it once they're in and can probably take one hit on the switchin, making them soft counters/good checks.


The unaware skill swap chansey should be able to deal with this fine, however getting evio knocked off would suck. It's a better counter to the defensive one.


Goodra and Desotran can switch in and phase it out.


PH tail glow mana can run energy ball to beat opposing manaphy and regen can U-turn to bring a glass canon in safely to KO.

So, what PH mons are you guys using now? What are you using to beat manaphy and diancie?

Blissweep (Blissey) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Calm Mind
- Wish
- Protect

Shoutouts LaxLapras for unintentionally inspiring this set.
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 369-435 (56.5 - 66.6%)
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +1 8 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 246-291 (37.6 - 44.5%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 306-360 (46.8 - 55.1%)

Handling two of the most threatening wallbreakers and setting up on them is a win in my book, especially when you can wishpass and avoid pursuit on top of it.

I also looked for a couple of faster grass types:


Roserade @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes

Tried that out really briefly, haven't had the time to use it too much (mainly because the team I have it in is shit) but it's a decent answer to Manaphy and can sorta handle Thundurus (EVs to outspeed it), but not that well, and doesn't do shit against latios which is why I started looking into other options.


Sceptile @ Life Orb
Ability: Refrigerate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 140 Atk / 152 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Return
- Crunch
- RestSo yeah, looking for grass types with more that 111 speed this is the best option. EVs to OHKO 236 / 88 manaphy on Leaf Storm, rest into Atk to deal with the rest.

152 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 236 HP / 88 SpD Manaphy: 400-476 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
140 Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Sceptile Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 338-400 (113 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
140 Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Sceptile Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 304-359 (101.6 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also after the Lax ban naturally ppl would look for other Facade abusers so a couple of options popped up, Adamant SD Bouffalant is an excellent wallbreaking option but quite lackluster in therms of bulk, I've seen Largato running a SpeDef variant before switchin to Cusre Lickylicky as a direct Lax replacement. And I don't have time so I'll write more later.
 
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Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch are now banned from AAA.

This happened by a unanimous council vote. We opted to ban these two moves rather than the ability No Guard as No Guard has other potential uses, whereas these two moves do not. We used a council vote rather than a suspect mainly because this seemed like a ubiquitous opinion and we felt as though a suspect for these moves would not get many voters, as even a more important suspect like Snorlax and Suicune got very few.

On a side note, I'm posting this rather than Klang because AAA has changed leadership styles. Klang stepped down as the head, so TI appointed the council members as equal co-leaders, so as of now we will be making suspect decisions together.
 

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