Ladder Almost Any Ability

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
I'd say this, with Simple/Contrary/Unaware you're really centralising the metagame around them. Why bother running anything else except those?

It's going to be difficult to explain, but Simple and Contrary really do force you to run unaware. And if we ban those two then offence will be replaced by Aerilate, Protean, Tough claws and Adapt - but atleast none of them force you to run any one abillity.

Why is it called almost any ability when it's basically a trifecta of three abilities?
 
If i'm making a vaguely balanced/offensive team, is there any reason i shouldn't include at least one simple or contrary pokemon? Do i have to run unaware to check these abilities or are there other switch ins i can use? What revenge kill options do i have? I don't play AAA ubers because i'm away so I'm curious what the pro ban and anti ban sides think. I feel like these questions are very important to determining if contrary is banworthy.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Completely agree with Chopin. Yes, contrary/simple can be walled, but its very restricting for team building. To be competitive against quality teams, you have to run unaware.

"Laxpras you can just revenge kill with espeed" To the several people that have told me this on PS, nah. Listen, I have two E-Speeders on my team, and I still couldn't top the ladder until I added an unaware mon on top of those two E-speeders. Let me go through the main abusers and show you why both abilities are bad for the meta, require an unaware user, and are not revenge killed by extreme speed.

Simple Arceus: +4 STAB extreme speed after one move, need I say more? Arceus blows through Giratina after one boost with shadow claw or phantom force:
+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 356-421 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
On top of that, with base 120 speed, and 120/120 bulk, you can't rkill with your own extreme speeder. It outspeeds all other Espeeders barring itself, which it speed ties with. Even if it loses the speed tie, it easily lives the hit, and OHKOs or 2HKOs
+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 411-485 (107.5 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
On the other hand, it cannot get 2HKOd by unboosted Espeed.

Simple Xerneas: Maybe the most threatening of any abuser. After one move, the thing is outspeeding absolutely everything, not caring at all about your scarfs, and is OHKOing everything, not caring at all about your resists.
+4 252+ SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Primal Groudon: 236-278 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It also has the amazing bulk to tank any Espeed, and return with the KO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 164-192 (37.3 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+4 252+ SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 441-519 (115.4 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's really nothing else that needs to be said, look at those calcs. You absolutely need unaware to not auto-lose.

Contrary Ray:
This is on another level. With 150/150 attacking stats and a movepool consisting of STAB Draco Meteor and Dragon Ascent, Ray is the perfect Contrary abuser. Then you throw in V-Create and Extreme Speed, and its game over. After one V-Create Ray is outspeeding the meta and has really solid bulk. With Draco, there is literally nothing that is walling it. The only common fairy is Xerneas, which gets 2HKOd by Dragon ascent. Contrary Ray can easily run Sash and deal with Xern easily, and then appreciate the boosts Xerneas gave it. Actually, you don't even need sash, as Contrary lets you live Moonblast.
252+ SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 230-272 (65.9 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And like Arceus, Rayquaza gets access to its own extreme speed, meaning only Arceus can revenge kill it with extreme speed. This isn't even true if Ray gets a V-Create boost, as it now outspeeds. It won't kill arceus by any means, but damn it will hurt. The point is, Contrary is extremely restricting.

Contrary Dialga:
The most common Contrary user I've come across. With awesome bulk and typing, this thing fires off STAB Draco's like there's no tomorrow. Then, it has no problem tanking pretty much any hit to return KO. It also comes with the beautiful steel typing to resist extreme speed. For a balanced or defensive team, Dialga is your worst nightmare, and you need unaware to stop it. It even laughs at Xerneas, getting neutral damage against Moonblast to KO with flash cannon after just one boost
+2 252+ SpA Dialga Flash Cannon vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 648-764 (147.6 - 174%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Important: These are just what I've had the most experience with. There are still users like Reshiram, with devastating dual STABs that provide boosts, and the Lati twins that can get Simple Calm Mind boosts to become ridiculously bulky and powerful. Another user expanding on them would be beneficial to the conversation I believe. I think the point is pretty clear though, to do well in this current meta you need unaware on your team. So maybe the abilities aren't broken, as they can definitely be walled with unaware. However, this completely unnessaceary restriction on the meta really limits what teams can do, and although I am loving AAA Ubers, it would be even more fun without contrary/simple - Players would now have an additional slot to teambuild with, one that was previously dedicated to Unaware.

Also I'll take this time to shoutout my Unaware Lugia set for walling almost every Contrary/Simple user, except LO Ray and Reshiram ;(

Edit: Fixed calcs, now contrary/simple are even more threatening
 
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LaxLapras It's actually +4 instead of +3, so the calcs look a little different for Ekiller:

+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 356-421 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

For Xern:

+4 252+ SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Primal Groudon: 236-278 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Ekiller:
Takes an Espeed from Arceus with a sizable amount of health left, and:
+4 252+ SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 441-519 (115.4 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

G-Luke

Grookey Gang Rise Up
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As I said, ANY Ubers based metagame where running an Unaware Lugia for OFFENCE is next to compulsory is an indication of extreme set up spam. HO could in theory apply soo much offensive pressure that it prevents Simpletons from setting up, but in practice, its just not that easy. As both Chopin and I clearly stated, the best abusers of Simple are so naturally bulky revengekilling with Espeed is near impossible, Especially since Arceuy has its own super fast Espeed. The best abusers of Contrary can boost its offences AND defences so revengekilling is simply not an option. So yh BAN THE ABILITIES
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
I don't know about you guys, but I don't run a single mon with contrary or simple on my team. I DO run unaware yveltal, which generally doesn't check special contrary abusers / simple because it's physically bulky. I run it because it's a good mon in the metagame, not because it beats unaware/simple when it clearly doesn't. I have used contrary and simple and really don't find them broken, and they're easy to play around in my experience. If you want to ban them, fine, I'm not going to argue, because I don't really care considering I don't use them.
 
After reading over and considering all the posts here, TI and I have decided that Simple will be banned instead of Contrary, as based on what we read Simple is a bigger issue and it's a bigger factor in heavily inciting teams to run Unaware.

We've still got our eyes on Contrary, and if it ends up that after the Simple ban Contrary remains a significant problem we'll take appropriate action against it. We encourage everyone to continue Contrary discussion for post-Simple AAA Ubers.
 
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Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
We really need to look into Deoxys-a, it's protean set is absolutely terrifying to switch into. In Ubers its already A+ rank with its attrocious typing - here it has stab on absolutely everything... And it's bulk really doesn't matter, bar Deoxys-S it has the fastest Extreme Speed in the metagame. How does anything switch into this?

Deoxys-A has coverage moves from every single type with, at minimum, a 75 Base power move... Get this thing out of the tier, right away.
 
We really need to look into Deoxys-a, it's protean set is absolutely terrifying to switch into. In Ubers its already A+ rank with its attrocious typing - here it has stab on absolutely everything... And it's bulk really doesn't matter, bar Deoxys-S it has the fastest Extreme Speed in the metagame. How does anything switch into this?

Deoxys-A has coverage moves from every single type with, at minimum, a 75 Base power move... Get this thing out of the tier, right away.
Kind of agree, that shit is fucking hard to switch into, especially when sashed(i.e. most of the time).
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
I've been using deo-a a lot, and the main thing with it is that despite being very powerful and being able to 2hko the whole tier with the right coverage, if something doesn't get OHKOd it will OHKO Deo-A back. An easy way of dealing with it is send in something bulky (Giratina-O, Yveltal, Dialga, Ho-Oh, etc.) that can tank one hit and attack back (bringing it down to sash) then kill it with a helmet bulky mon (e.g. bulky ygod, support dialga) if you predict espeed, or priority on something like Tina-O or Sucker on anything when you know it won't/can't use ESpeed. If it's LO, it's obviously more powerful, but anything that can tank an ESpeed and KO back with priority kills it easily (e.g. Giratina-O, Yveltal, Rayquaza). It is a very good mon and can regularly get at least one kill per match (more against bad players but those don't really count), but I don't think it's broken right now.
 
I'm honestly puzzled as to why Simple was banned.

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

This is generic, regular Ubers Xerneas (almost always) 2HKOing a Primal Groudon that has substantially invested in Special bulk with a resisted hit. Replacing Fairy Aura with +4 means that you avoid a 4% chance of not getting the 2HKO, whoo? Not even getting into Grass Knot, which is a 2HKO on Primal Groudon at +2 even if it's fully Specially Defensive. (At +4 Grass Knot can never OHKO fully Specially Defensive Primal Groudon, either)

The claim that Simple Xerneas in specific can invest in bulk is bizarre. The generic Ubers Xerneas in the calc has a whole 44 EVs invested in Speed, whoo?

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 230-272 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 344-406 (82.8 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Simple and non-Simple both 2HKO Ho-Oh, both OHKO through Stealth Rock if it's not Magic Guard (Which it usually is in AAA Ubers) when using Thunderbolt.

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Lugia: 115-136 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- 72.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+4 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Lugia: 172-203 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Multiscale Lugia can actually Roost through Simple Xerneas' Thunderbolt, or more likely it tanks one hit and Whirlwinds out Xerneas, removing its boosts and now Simple is useless. Admittedly, this is one case where Simple is actually beneficial, because non-Simple does sufficiently low damage Lugia can potentially do something like drop Toxic and then Roost spam, maybe even switch into Stealth Rock and Roost up, but honestly Magic Bounce Xerneas is way more of a problem for Lugia -and can even pull off getting a second Geomancy up in Lugia's face, directly matching Simple's boosts.

Xerneas with Simple isn't actually that much of an improvement over regular Xerneas, and Protean Xerneas has equal offensive performance anytime it's not turning to Moon Blast -and most switch-in attempts are going to be things that Moon Blast isn't optimal against (eg Ho-oh) so Protean is barely any worse, and even has some situational advantages, such as Thunderbolting Ho-oh giving it resistance to Brave Bird. (Most Ho-oh are Magic Guard, not Gale Wings, so this even matters in actual matches)

Extreme Killer Arceus' biggest reason to run Simple is that it's a straightforward improvement to its basic set with little in the way of disadvantages or situational flaws. It's not broken.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 309-367 (61.4 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 356-421 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tough Claws at +2 and Simple reaching +4 both 2HKO Physically Defensive Giratina.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 456-538 (118.7 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 526-620 (136.9 - 161.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

They both OHKO somewhat bulky Primal Kyogre with Extreme Speed after one boost.

+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 359-422 (78.9 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 309-367 (67.9 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Small advantage to Simple against non-Unaware Yveltal -it will always KO Yveltal switching into Stealth Rock, where Tough Claws has a less than 50% chance of doing so.

+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 169-199 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 144-170 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 61.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 147-173 (35.3 - 41.5%) -- 77.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 125-148 (30 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

They both break Multiscale Lugia by hitting it with Shadow Claw and then finishing with Extreme Speed -and they both are unable to break it if it just spams Roost. Admittedly Tough Claws can't consistently OHKO with Shadow Claw after Stealth Rock? Also, if Lugia is going to sit there and let them boost some more, Tough Claws is better.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 437-515 (95.8 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Tough Claws will usually OHKO Xerneas after one boost, and is obviously better at trying to revenge a Xerneas that's used Geomancy.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 456-538 (110.6 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

OHKOs bulky Rayquaza, no need for Simple.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 456-538 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

OHKOs bulky Ho-oh...

Tough Claws has mostly the same functional performance (bar using Earthquake to defeat Primal Groudon or the like, but almost all the Arceus I've seen have only run Extreme Speed and Ghost coverage) after one boost, performs better before boosting, is so close to Simple after two boosts that damage variance drowns it out

+4 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 625-737 (183.2 - 216.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 641-756 (187.9 - 221.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and is obviously superior with maximum boosting and against Unaware -and unlike Simple, it can't be meaningfully checked by an Ability like Unaware. (There is no "defensive Mold Breaker"-esque Ability that neuters Ability-based damage boosts -Mummy is the closest thing to such functionality)

I'm baffled as to why Simple got banned. I'd totally have understood banning Contrary while I was away if AAA Ubers is against banning Pokemon (I really think Rayquaza should be banned, not Contrary, but I'd understand banning Contrary if a Pokemon-inclusive ban philosophy is the intention, which would be in line with Ubers philosophy in general) but I cannot imagine why anyone would think Simple needs a ban, not on the basis of Xerneas and Arceus. Xerneas is truly and honestly better with other Abilities, and Arceus will simply shift to Tough Claws with barely any impact on its actual performance.

We really need to look into Deoxys-a, it's protean set is absolutely terrifying to switch into. In Ubers its already A+ rank with its attrocious typing - here it has stab on absolutely everything... And it's bulk really doesn't matter, bar Deoxys-S it has the fastest Extreme Speed in the metagame. How does anything switch into this?

Deoxys-A has coverage moves from every single type with, at minimum, a 75 Base power move... Get this thing out of the tier, right away.
Eh. This is AAA Ubers. If it's not AG-tier, my impression is bans are discouraged? Deoxys-Attack also suffers a lot if you don't specifically use it as a lead, which makes it less of an issue that switch-ins to it are hard to find -you just need a good counter-lead to make it a lot less appealing.
 
Since EI already had one, me and some other people try to make a Viability ranking for AAA Ubers after playing it for a while. This includes possible Abilities that are viable.
AAA Ubers Viability Rankings

Descriptions taken from STABmons Viability Rankings thread. Credits to InfernapeTropius11, Nido The King, Funbot28 and aesf .

S rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are unmatched in the AAA Ubers metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame on their own, and often in more than one capacity. With so few if any flaws holding them back they should always be considered over another Pokemon that performs in a similar role. These Pokemon define the metagame.

Xerneas - Protean, Sheer Force, Unaware, Magic Bounce, Fur Coat, Mold Breaker, Pixilate
Rayquaza - Aerilate, Contrary, Gale Wings, Protean
Deoxys-Attack - Protean, Magic Guard, Contrary
Arceus - Tough Claws, Poison Heal, Unaware, Magic Bounce, Fur Coat, Mold Breaker

A rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are extremely potent in the AAA Ubers metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame and have minor flaws that can be mitigated with the right support, if any. They can perform very well in more than one role or just excel in one so well they do it better than almost anything else. These Pokemon influence the metagame.

A+

Lugia - Unaware, Prankster, Magic Bounce
Giratina - Poison Heal, Fur Coat, Prankster, Magic Bounce
Yveltal - Adaptability, Fur Coat, Unaware, Poison Heal, Gale Wings

A

Groudon-Primal - Download, Intimidate ---> Desolate Land
Ho-oh - Magic Guard, Gale Wings
Mewtwo - Protean, Download, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce, No Guard

A-

Chansey - Fur Coat, Unaware, Regenerator, Magic Bounce
Kyurem-W - Contrary, Adaptability, Protean, Sheer Force, Refrigerate
Slaking - Poison Heal, Speed Boost, Tough Claws, Scrappy
Darkrai - Mold Breaker, Prankster, Sheer Force, Compound Eyes
Palkia - Contrary, Adaptability, Primordial Sea

B rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are still very potent in the AAA Ubers metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall some portions of the metagame but might have flaws that require more support. They can perform very well in one role, but may struggle in multiple capacities. They still have more positive traits than negative. These Pokemon are adaptable to the metagame.

B+

Dialga - Adaptability, Contrary, Sheer Force, Regenerator, Magic Bounce, Fur Coat
Diancie - Fur Coat, Regenerator
Latios - Adaptability, Tinted Lens, Contrary
Skarmory - Unaware, Flash Fire, Gale Wings, Fur Coat
Mega Gengar - Illusion ---> Shadow Tag

B

Giratina-O - Fur Coat, Adaptability, Regenerator
Kyurem-B - Refrigerate
Scizor- Magic Bounce, Flash Fire
Ferrothorn - Prankster, Flash Fire, Primordial Sea
Reshiram - Contrary, Adaptability
Latias - Speed Boost, Adaptability, Contrary, Fur Coat
Mega Salamence - Download ---> Aerilate

B-

Kyogre - Download, Primordial Sea, Fur Coat, Regenerator, Poison Heal
Regigigas - Poison Heal, Speed Boost, Protean
Zekrom - Speed Boost, Sheer Force
Groudon - Poison Heal, Regenerator, Fur Coat, Speed Boost
Mega Mawile - Speed boost ---> Huge Power

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have some potency in the AAA Ubers metagame. These Pokemon can threaten or check some portions of the metagame but often have large flaws that require more support. They often can only perform well in one role as multiple roles will expose their many flaws. They may have more negative traits than positive. These Pokemon have a hard time adapting with the metagame.

C+

Cresselia - Fur Coat, Unaware, Regenerator
Deoxys-S - Mold Breaker, Protean
Weavile - Refridgerate, Adaptability
Noivern - Aerilate

C

Shaymin-S - No Guard, Tinted Lens, Adaptability
Smeargle - Prankster
Archeops - Magic Guard, Aerilate
 
The only Fur Coat abuser I've found even slightly threatening is Xerneas. I think I've fought Fur Coat Arceus and Fur Coat Lugia? Not sure, but if so, they were... not terrible, but not that interesting. This is Ubers. Even your physical attackers can usually be mixed fairly easily, and anyway if they're Fur Coat they don't like things like Toxic.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
OK so this might be long bcz I think a few things need to happen to balance the meta.

Xerneas (Ban) - Honestly Xerneas is just insanely powerful. Mold Breaker runs through stall, (invalidating Unaware), Fur Coat demolishes offense, and Protean can rip through balance (2HKOs Lugia for example). It can also run stuff like PH or Unaware and be really annoying. And all of these sets are good against all playstyles (they just specifically target one in particular). To put that in perspective, FC Xerneas (the best set imo) uses CB Rayquaza as set up bait--and it doesn't even have great defense, nor does it resists Ray's attacks. It also has access to CM so it can set up multiple times theoughout the match and put pressure on the opponent. It's ridiculously easy to sweep with and insanely difficult to revenge kill. It's so spammable almost every team carries Xerneas. I'd provide calcs to show how bulky it is but I'm on mobile unfortunately so just imagine your favourite wallbreaker being laughed at and eaten by a fox.

Contrary (Ban) - Now you might say, well IT11, Unaware is everywhere. Well you see, there's this little move called Toxic that you can click, and then those Unaware users magically don't wall you anymore! For example, Dialga can do like 40% to Unaware Lugia with Draco, so with Toxic Lugia can't Roost stall just two turns later. Sure, it possibly Whirlwinded you out but as soon as you come in again (as long as you keep the pressure on their cleric) you can simply sweep. As for Fairies being good walls to Draco spamming Contrary mons, well, Dialga has STAB Flash Cannon (and is one of the best Contra users imo) and others have strong neutral STABs that generally KO Fairies. And every relevant Contra user has Steel coverage. Contrary Rayquaza for example, shits on some of it's reg counters (e.g. FC Yveltal) by dropping a draco, and while Xern may wall it Xern is broken too, it's the main thing keeping it in check which seems unhealthy for the meta imo. Essentially there are easy ways to bypass Unaware, and as most Contrary users have other sets (Aerilate/GW Ray, SF/Adapt Kyu-W, Adapt Dialga, etc.) they can lure in "counters" nab the boost and sweep at the drop of a hat. I'm not sure I've been explaining this very well, but there's a reason Contrary is generally banned when it gains wider distribution.

Ability Clause - Last thing I wanna see added is Ability Clause. The one from regular AAA (2 max of each ability) should do. I'd prefer this over a Fur Coat ban (the main offender) bcz FC on certain mons is not overpowered, and necessary to keep much of the meta in check (contrary to my belief at the beginning of the month), but fighting 6 FC mons that can all set up is ridiculous. Lcass has a meme team of 6 FC users and it's absurdly strong against offense/balance. When you're fighting a bunch of mons you can't revenge kill in the typical ways (spam strong priority) and that have +2 in a stat or three, things are gonna be rough. Stuff with naturally high bulk that can set up like Groudon or Arceus can use this to easily gain boosts and roll over other teams. And if you're gonna say just use a special attacker? CM exists (on stuff like Arceus, Xerneas, and Lugia for example) so if you can't crit it you ain't winning.

Sorry for slightly sarcastic post, I'm a bit tired and surprised this hasn't been addressed yet honestly.

TLDR ban fox ban contra ban ability spam
 

aesf

outskilled
AAA suspect test request


Snorlax @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 108 HP / 168 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Protect
- Facade
- Fire Punch / Earthquake

Want to bring up the possibility of a snorlax suspect first because I beileve this is a very big problem that should at least be tested. As a brief overview, Snorlax is almost always used as a win-condition with curse/facade/protect/coverage with Poison Heal. It doesn't really run any other set, because basically all other sets are inferior to this one. For its purposes, its only real weakness is fighting lack of physical bulk, which is somewhat patched up by curse.

For starters, Snorlax has almost no counters. Against offensive teams, the moment it gets a boost (which is pretty often, given its fantastic bulk), it's able to easily run through entire teams, or at least take out half of it. It has 3 main checks on offense: Doublade, Whirlwind Skarmory, and tough claws banded/life orb fighting types. Regenerator/Flash Fire/Levitate Doublade is the best answer. Fighting types can't actually come in more than once unless you're lucario and find a way not to take life orb recoil. Skarmory is a check at best, taking 40 min from +1 fire punch, and 52 min from +1 earthquake if you want to roost. With whirlwind, you take that 40-50 from fire punch, get whirlwinded out, and hope rng is good. With any other Skarmory (even taunt) you basically lose if they cursed on the switch and aren't too badly hurt. Even then Whirlwind Skarmory still loses in last-mon situations. Heracross can't come in on facade at all, so using it sometimes means you have to sac something just to revenge kill. (LO hera can't revenge lax at +2 but band can with rolls) On stall teams, aside from Doublade, it has a common counter in the form of chesnaught.

tl;dr: tough claws fighting types and whirlwind skarm are alright checks, and doublade and chesnaught are counters. WW Skarm can still lose to last-mon Snorlax.

But what separates Snorlax from other set up sweepers is the ease with which it sets up with its bulk and offensive pressure. If you have one somewhat passive mon like unboosted manaphy (doesn't matter that much if tail glow) or zapdos and your team doesn't have a doublade, you're already weak to snorlax. The moment it gets up a curse, most attacks do little to no damage, and you basically have to pick a sac. There's almost nothing that can be done at that point; attacks like adaptability latios's draco meteor do just 50-60%, damage which is even less impressive when you realize snorlax recovers it off so quickly.

So basically
- Sets up on half the meta
- Only way to be sure Snorlax doesn't win is Doublade or stall with something like chesnaught
- Tough Claws fighting types are shaky checks that have problems coming in, so you either have to sac or switch in directly (risky but ensures they don't get to +2 def)
- Whirlwind Skarmory can still lose in last-mon situations, especially given Snorlax's ability to set up almost whenever it wants.
- "It is not satisfied unless it eats over 880 pounds [...]"- Fire Red yum draco meteor and focus blast
- Has offensive pressure
- Incredibly restrictive of teambuilding
- 50/50s galore (often times the snorlax player only has to win 1 while the opponent has to win many)
- fat af (hence being unhealthy)
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
AAA suspect test request


Snorlax @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 108 HP / 168 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Protect
- Facade
- Fire Punch / Earthquake

Want to bring up the possibility of a snorlax suspect first because I beileve this is a very big problem that should at least be tested. As a brief overview, Snorlax is almost always used as a win-condition with curse/facade/protect/coverage with Poison Heal. It doesn't really run any other set, because basically all other sets are inferior to this one. For its purposes, its only real weakness is fighting lack of physical bulk, which is somewhat patched up by curse.

For starters, Snorlax has almost no counters. Against offensive teams, the moment it gets a boost (which is pretty often, given its fantastic bulk), it's able to easily run through entire teams, or at least take out half of it. It has 3 main checks on offense: Doublade, Whirlwind Skarmory, and tough claws banded/life orb fighting types. Regenerator/Flash Fire/Levitate Doublade is the best answer. Fighting types can't actually come in more than once unless you're lucario and find a way not to take life orb recoil. Skarmory is a check at best, taking 40 min from +1 fire punch, and 52 min from +1 earthquake if you want to roost. With whirlwind, you take that 40-50 from fire punch, get whirlwinded out, and hope rng is good. With any other Skarmory (even taunt) you basically lose if they cursed on the switch and aren't too badly hurt. Even then Whirlwind Skarmory still loses in last-mon situations. Heracross can't come in on facade at all, so using it sometimes means you have to sac something just to revenge kill. (LO hera can't revenge lax at +2 but band can with rolls) On stall teams, aside from Doublade, it has a common counter in the form of chesnaught.

tl;dr: tough claws fighting types and whirlwind skarm are alright checks, and doublade and chesnaught are counters. WW Skarm can still lose to last-mon Snorlax.

But what separates Snorlax from other set up sweepers is the ease with which it sets up with its bulk and offensive pressure. If you have one somewhat passive mon like unboosted manaphy (doesn't matter that much if tail glow) or zapdos and your team doesn't have a doublade, you're already weak to snorlax. The moment it gets up a curse, most attacks do little to no damage, and you basically have to pick a sac. There's almost nothing that can be done at that point; attacks like adaptability latios's draco meteor do just 50-60%, damage which is even less impressive when you realize snorlax recovers it off so quickly.

So basically
- Sets up on half the meta
- Only way to be sure Snorlax doesn't win is Doublade or stall with something like chesnaught
- Tough Claws fighting types are shaky checks that have problems coming in, so you either have to sac or switch in directly (risky but ensures they don't get to +2 def)
- Whirlwind Skarmory can still lose in last-mon situations, especially given Snorlax's ability to set up almost whenever it wants.
- "It is not satisfied unless it eats over 880 pounds [...]"- Fire Red yum draco meteor and focus blast
- Has offensive pressure
- Incredibly restrictive of teambuilding
- 50/50s galore (often times the snorlax player only has to win 1 while the opponent has to win many)
- fat af (hence being unhealthy)
i think this isnt just a problem with snorlax, as its more of a problem of Poison heal as a ability. so many mons spike up in viability JUST because poison heal is just such a good ability. it makes a allready good mon suicune one of the biggest wincons in the meta, it turns a passive mon with weak healing, cresselia into a setup sweeper whos hard to kill and gets good consistant recovery, and it makes snorlax a super powerful wallbreaker AND wall in itself. and it generally gives setup sweepers passive recovery and immunity to status. and it gives stallmons like mandibuzz and chesnaught the additional recovery these mons desperately needed alongside immunity to detremental status. poison heal lets you take on a stallbreaker role...or a wall/tank role. or even BOTH in snorlax/suicunes case. and i feel like IT is the problem, and not just snorlax alone. i feel like looking into PH first is the main procedure to take, then afterwards we need to look at snorlax if its deemed not broken. but thats just my opinion.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Honestly, I'm so god damn tired of every team looking eerily similar in AAA right now. Yes, Poison heal is a part of the problem. But it's not the only problem. Together Adaptability and Poison Heal create a metagame that's dominated by a few particular pokemon.
And I'll just say it now, I'm bad at wording myself so stay with me on this one. Adaptability has shown time and time again to turn pokemon broken. Although Adaptability wasn't the only factor, it is the straw that broke the camels back when it came to Terrakion, Mamoswine and Bisharp. And contributed to the ban of Weavile and Shaymin-sky. Most offensive pokemon use both their stabs, and to them why wouldn't you run Adaptability? It gives you such a free boost that put so many pokemon over the edge.

I think a suspect on Abilities over pokemon, is long over due. Without Adaptability, will Weavile, Mamoswine, Terrakion and Bisharp really be broken? I don't think so... Everything has been said on Poison heal, so I'm just going to go over on Adaptability, but I fully support Lcass4919 on PH. Please suspect both

Honesty, it's going to happen over and over again, pokemon with these abilities are going to go come up.

Tyranitar is honestly the best Stallbreaker in the metagame. And you might say it's because it's a Wallbreaker, but no. It's not that Adaptability Choice banded Tyranitar lacks switch ins, it's that it's incredible hard to switch out on. Well, it's sorta hard to switch into :P But there's still things like fighting types, intimidate Skarmory and hippowdown. The problem is that it applies so much pressure on specially defensive pokemon, because unless they resist Pursuit then they will most likely be unable to do what they're supposed to do. TTar has the bulk. It has the power. And there is no escaping it.

I want to specify why Adaptability is the problem, if you ban Adaptability you remove the 1.33x boost from Stone edge, which is huge. For example making Suicune escape the 2hko after Poison Heal and or Diancie after its Poison Heal.

Here's to show some important calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 276-328 (86.5 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 326-384 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 252-298 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 250-296 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 212-250 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


A lot of these pokemon can't stay in on Tyranitar, nor can they directly hinder it from switching in. So it really puts you in a nasty position. You either stay in risking an even more powerful Stone edge/Crunch or Switch out risking a powerful Pursuit



Aesf told me to word this better, so here goes. It's hard to specifically point out an argument regarding Adaptability that doesn't end up simply being this pokemon "hits super hard". And honestly that might be what this point will be about. The almost free of charge power increase in damage is too much. And by free of charge, I acknowledge Tough claws, Sheer force ect. But Adaptability is the one that's most widely.

But lets address them,

Tough Claws is the most closely compared ability, it's a 1.3x boost to every move that makes contact. And lets establish it right away, the majority of physical moves are contact so very few special attackers can use Tough claws, so we're ruling them out. But that's not all, some of the best physical moves in the game don't make contact.

Attack Order, Barrage, Beat Up, Bone Club, Bone Rush, Bonemerang, Bulldoze, Bullet Seed, Diamond Storm, Earthquake, Egg Bomb, Explosion, Feint, Fissure, Fling, Freeze Shock, Fusion Bolt, Gunk Shot, Hyperspace Fury, Ice Shard, Icicle Crash, Icicle Spear, Land's Wrath, Magnet Bomb, Magnitude, Metal Burst, Natural Gift, Pay Day, Petal Blizzard, Pin Missile, Poison Sting, Precipice Blades, Present, Psycho Cut, Razor Leaf, Rock Blast, Rock Slide, Rock Throw, Rock Tomb, Rock Wrecker, Sacred Fire, Sand Tomb, Secret Power, Seed Bomb, Self-Destruct, Sky Attack, Smack Down, Spike Cannon, Stone Edge, Thousand Arrows, Thousand Waves, Twineedle, Water Shuriken

That's important. Those moves are really important, with Adaptability you can easily go with your own stabs, which you are clicking 95% of the time. Tough Claws limits you.

Sheer force is a different story, now more moves are directly effected by Sheer force however... Do I need to state the obvious? You lose the secondary effects. Scald burns, Special defence drops, defence drops and every other drop and status effect in the book. So between the secondary effects and the fact that not all moves are effected by Sheer force. And to be honest this can seen in the pokemon that really run Sheer force, which is mainly Thundurus and Gengar, and this is because Thundurus lacks a good flying stab and Gengar loves Focus blast like a baby.

The list goes on and on, you chuck adaptability on almost any offensive mon regardless of it being a special or a physically attacker. Regardless if it is
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Adaptability is going to be an almost free power boost and is constantly going to break pokemon.

TL;DR It is the time we look into suspecting abilities over pokemon. Ban Adaptability and Poison heal then suspect Bisharp, Weavile, Mamoswine and Terrakion.
 
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I've said this before, and I'll say it again: one of the more subtle things Adaptability does is compress the Pokemon's movepool.

It's a simple matter of math. If you have a 90 BP STAB move, and a 90 BP non-STAB move, you'll use the STAB move over the non-STAB move thanks to the 50% damage boost... but if the non-STAB move if super effective, you'll use it instead, because 180 is higher than 135.

Adaptability throws that out the window, making coverage only relevant in cases where the non-STAB move is at least 2 tiers of effectiveness ahead of the STAB move, since "STAB neutral" and "off-STAB super effective" are identical. In cases where the STABs lack innate immunities and don't share a resistance, coverage is almost completely irrelevant.

That is: Weavile's Dark/Ice offense, when bolstered by Adaptability, is only going to break out coverage in extremely niche situations -it has to be the case that the target resists Dark and Ice and is weak to one of Weavile's coverage moves for it to be worth doing. In its case, that means a combination of Fighting/Dark/Fairy alongside Water/Ice/Steel/Fire. While most of these combinations exist, getting a wall or indeed a bulky attacker of that type is not so practical -Bisharp is Dark/Steel, and so low in bulk Fighting coverage is completely irrelevant to butchering it. This means Weavile can either skip out on coverage entirely, or if one of these specific combinations is viable and popular (Azumarill?) break out a coverage move that reliably beats that specific combination. (Poison Jab/Thunder Punch for Azumarill, say)

Since Weavile can largely skip out on coverage, this frees it up to fit in other moves. This is a problem that can feed into itself -in Standard, a Weavile that wants STABs+Fake Out+a coverage move doesn't have room for Swords Dance, and so may not be able to break tremendously bulky walls that aren't weak to it, no matter how passive. Adaptability Weavile that drops coverage easily has room for Swords Dance, and suddenly it can just outright break through passive walls that lack Unaware.

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 200-237 (50.8 - 60.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Oh, look at that, Adaptability Life Orb hits hard enough to usually overwhelm the (Classic) Unaware walls anyway.

This is a recurring problem with Adaptability, and it is Adaptability in specific. Tough Claws is actually the better Ability for Pokemon who only want to run contact moves anyway (Pangoro is an example, if I recall correctly), strictly speaking, but Tough Claws doesn't encourage the Pokemon to ignore coverage and swap in utility to break its counters other ways like Adaptability does. The Pokemon that get broken by it are the ones whose STAB typing is complimentary offensively and doesn't have to deal with immunities. In Tyranitar's case, even though Dark and Rock are both resisted by Fighting, Fighting type Pokemon don't actually provide walling options. You have to do stuff like run Poison Heal Throh to have a Fighting type that functions reasonably well as a wall. As such, Tyranitar's lack of coverage for Fighting types isn't even a problem -you'll wear down most Fighting types anyway, over the course of a few switches.
 
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Here's an extract from the council conversation, which showcases my thoughts on adaptability. It's not particularly pretty as it has no sprites or w/e but here:
If the aja post is what brings this discussion. The most problematic thing about adapt, judging from that post is ttar, which as motherlove pointed out is more of a problem with pursuit itself. I was thinking about what i could use in place of scarf Adapttar today and Tough Claws was a direct replacement. The difference in damage output would be minimal for crunch and pursuit, the two main reasons to use it, and Thundurus should still die to rock slide/ice punch. For band, Tough Claws allows it to keep pursuit trapping things and allows for a stronger superpower, as well as strong coverage options in the elemental punches. How much really changes for Ttar?

Latios, as heard from most stall players i've spoken to, has always been somewhat easily managed. It's a major threat in the meta so you should pack counters in your stall teams and packing counters isn't hard. A combination of unaware chansey and regenvest melo pretty much walls all the prominent special threats in the meta. In fact, I would argue about how knock off thundy/manaphy/gengar are more annoying but to stall as both their counters heavily rely on their items. I'm sure you guys won't be calling for a ban on those pokemon because knock off is only useful for those two pokemon; in all other battles, it would prefer dark pulse/other coverage move (or taunt/dbond for gengar) and honestly unaware chansey walls all those mons regardless. If anything, a lot of aja's arguments on lati being broken hinged on how tinted is an option over adapt and can be used to get rid of would be counters like melo and escav/scizor/genesect and I agree. If anything breaks latios, it would be it's access to tinted lens. Tinted lens is an ability you can't see coming and can easily take advantage of to get rid of key members, I'm not a fan of this being allowed. I'm sure even skymin would be somewhat more managable (if not a whole lot more) with tinted banned, although i don't really want it back because fast serene grace air slash is cancerous.

From all the other examples provided, do any of them require counters specifically for it that do not serve any other purpose in stall outside of countering them? I don't have much experience with any of them bar Kyurem, which is hopelessly walled by special walls unless it's specifically running a subpar meme lure set, I assume volc is the same way but it has steam eruption to burn its way to victory, which could warrant looking into it. Aside from that i've been using a bit of Garchomp and because I've only faced motherlove, I kept running into Delta Stream togekiss, which walls it to death + walls luke (you can beat it while using iron tail but it's not a thing yet, so i don't know if pre emptively banning it is the solution). Honchkrow is also walled by a common pokemon i see in fat teams, diancie, however, it can also run coverage to potentially beat it (it learns steel wing lol).

So, what's the point of all this?
tldr; I believe most Adaptability users can just default to Sheer Force / Tough Claws / another existing ability to replace Adaptability and still basically keep doing it's job. I don't think banning adaptability to bring back 2 Pokemon while nerfing all non contact move physical attacker/some special attackers is the way to go.
I personally think the metagame is fine as it is. There's room for running pokemon that you want to run, as aesf proves in almost every team he makes, every possible playstyle is viable and despite 4 extremely centralizing things being in the metagame (Fridgespeed, Gale Wings, Suicune, Snorlax) teams manage to not be identical.

now addressing some things from the posts above that are not addressed in that quote:

Honestly, I'm so god damn tired of every team looking eerily similar in AAA right now. Yes, Poison heal is a part of the problem. But it's not the only problem. Together Adaptability and Poison Heal create a metagame that's dominated by a few particular pokemon.
I don't see how Adaptability or Poison Heal are entities that make teams look similar. Can you possibly provide some examples? From my understanding, offensive teams look similar because they need to not lose to the aforementioned centralizing things (Fridgespeed, Gale Wings, Suicune, Snorlax) and stall teams are supposed to look similar. You only have so many options that can fit on heavy offense and do those things. As for balanced, I don't think I've seen a lot of balanced builds look eerily similar. Just as an example, look at the three teams in my sig (not tell your friends), all 3 are balanced builds and all 3 are ok teams hopefully. They don't look very similar. Aesf mostly builds a lot of balanced teams, most of his teams are nothing like the other. Another example is laxlapras' new rmt which is also balanced and looks nothing like my teams. Stall teams are all supposed to do the same thing, wall the metagame, so they are bound to look the same because there's a handful of mons that can do that. Even then you can take a look at klang's two successful stall teams, both look pretty different. Also compare it to scarf wynaut's stall, they're also not that similar.

e- you can also look at rozes/klang's team dump to see some variety. iirc they don't look that much alike


from tough claws extract said:
That's important. Those moves are really important, with Adaptability you can easily go with your own stabs, which you are clicking 95% of the time. Tough Claws limits you.
Banning Adaptability would somewhat nerf 3 commonly used physical pokemon, limit is a weird term to use here. Tyranitar is nerfed sure, but as explained above can keep doing its job just fine. Krook already runs bulletproof 70% of the time (if not more) and Garchomp which has other viable sets in PH and Magic Bounce. They might be nerfed somewhat by the adapt ban but they aren't affected much.

Sheer force is a different story, now more moves are directly effected by Sheer force however... Do I need to state the obvious? You lose the secondary effects. Scald burns, Special defence drops, defence drops and every other drop and status effect in the book. So between the secondary effects and the fact that not all moves are effected by Sheer force. And to be honest this can seen in the pokemon that really run Sheer force, which is mainly Thundurus and Gengar, and this is because Thundurus lacks a good flying stab and Gengar loves Focus blast like a baby.
You're quite underselling the effect of no LO recoil. It's a godsend and is the thing that gives Thundurus, Genesect, Alakazam and Gengar the amount of endurance (albeit not a while lot) they have. Might even be a tad overselling scald's effectiveness in aaa offensive pokemon (manaphy) whose counters in aaa are generally pokemon that don't mind a burn (Poisoned PH Lax [no one brings it in without the poison having set already but might as well specify], chansey, meloetta).

----------------------------------------

As for ghoul king's example and what I assume is his ban argument. I don't really understand it. What's the point of pointing out that adaptability is making their STAB strong to the point where other coverage isn't necessary? We all know this and the two abilities above do the same thing but are better, as you pointed out, because they also boost coverage moves. Only reason Pokemon are running adapt is because the pokemon have no other choice. They'd prefer to run the other two but don't have the correct STAB for it. I may be missing something here but yeah.

Also, re: tyranitar's fighting type resists not being true counters. Well, if the goal is to counter tyranitar, the fighting types being used to wall it are not worn down. See: PH Chesnaught or as you mentioned, Throh. Intimidate hippo and Skarmory can also switch in and heal up. If you're referring to offensive counters like lucario, well, of course they're worn down, they're not walls.
 
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As for ghoul king's example and what I assume is his ban argument. I don't really understand it. What's the point of pointing out that adaptability is making their STAB strong to the point where other coverage isn't necessary? We all know this and the two abilities above do the same thing but are better, as you pointed out, because they also boost coverage moves.
Er. No. The point isn't that Adaptability makes STABs strong enough to not need other coverage. The point is that Adaptability modifies the relationship of STAB to non-STAB super effective such that coverage doesn't make sense to run except in niche situations.

It's not that Adaptability does things like push a STAB 3HKO into being a 2HKO. It's that Adaptability Mamoswine, Weavile, etc can essentially ignore the question of whether they want to run coverage moves or not, because 99% of the time coverage will be no stronger than just smacking the target with a STAB. This is not true on Tough Claws, which, while it's strictly superior to Adaptability anytime the Pokemon's entire (used) movepool is contact-based, does not alter the value of coverage. (Unless the coverage is non-contact, eg Earthquake)

A twin STABs Adaptability user runs two STABs and then ignores other attacking moves, running utility moves like Taunt, Swords Dance, etc. A Tough Claws user in the same situation will still actually consider off-STAB coverage, which can make certain kinds of choices actually difficult to make -do you want Toxic to break non-Steel Unaware walls? Do you want boosting to break non-Unaware walls/secure a sweep against offensive teams? Taunt to shut down recovery attempts? Tough Claws probably runs three attacks and then one of these effects. Adaptability runs two attacks and then two such moves, widening the pool of things it beats in this way.

Adaptability also applies to any case where a Pokemon's STABs are good/good together, where for instance Tyranitar's Rock STAB is unaffected by Tough Claws, the majority of Special attacks are unaffected, etc.

Incidentally, Adaptability is less susceptible to movepool limitations. Sheer Force and Tough Claws are hampered on the majority of users by the fact that one or more moves they want to run regardless don't actually benefit from the effect. Adaptability is only hampered by the Pokemon either having a non-complimentary baseline typing for offensive purposes (Normal/Flying is too redundant in what gives it problems, for example) or by the Pokemon flat-out lacking a viable STAB for one/both of its types. (eg Landorus-Therian lacking anything better than Fly for Flying STAB) In practice this means Adaptability tends to make already good Pokemon even better, and fail to really help flawed Pokemon.

In any event my feeling is less that Adaptability is broken and more that it's unhealthy.

Also, re: tyranitar's fighting type resists not being true counters. Well, if the goal is to counter tyranitar, the fighting types being used to wall it are not worn down. See: PH Chesnaught or as you mentioned, Throh. Intimidate hippo and Skarmory can also switch in and heal up. If you're referring to offensive counters like lucario, well, of course they're worn down, they're not walls.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 190-224 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 208-246 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippowdon is mostly-reliable, though there's also Defense drops from Crunch to consider, but... Skarmory is a terrible plan for switching into Adaptability Tyranitar. Gale Wings/Prankster Skarmory can Roost up in the face of Stone Edge, but Crunch is still a threat.

I'll admit I underestimated Poison Heal Chesnaught and Poison Heal Throh's ability to shrug off damage. My main point was that Fighting types provide few options for good walls, and that still stands, and it's part of why Adaptability Tyranitar is fairly effective: even though its STABs do share a resist, it's just not as big a deal as it could be.
 
I wasn't planning on addressing Aja's post but since imas did I thought I might as well. It’s not that I don’t agree with his point, just that I don’t agree with his reasoning.
So about that wall of calc.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 276-328 (86.5 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO



252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 326-384 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 252-298 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 250-296 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 212-250 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Snorlax, Suicune and Blastoise are pokemons that will almost always run Poison heal, which always comes with protect, so showing how much pursuit does to them is pretty irrelevant.

Zygarde will not switch out of Ttar, regardless 0 speed Zygarde outspeeds max speed adamant Ttar, not only that but it can either boosts its defence or hit Ttar with a super effective STAB move. Zygarde, from my knowlegde, runs poison heal more often that not on defensive set so pursuiting it is out of the question.

Zapdos outspeeds adamant max speed Ttar with 0 investment and can outspeed jolly with very little, it also learn baton pass which evades pursuit so if people want they can take countermeasures against Ttar.

Skarmory, unless severely weakened, can afford to roost once against Ttar to see what move it's going for. If the Ttar player managed to weaken Skarmory to the point where it can't take a stone edge than it's more of a case of him having played well than Ttar being inherently broken. Skarm also has the option to heavily punish Ttar with counter.

Doublade with minimal defensive investment (which is should run really) always lives a banded crunch at full and OHKOs back with sacred sword, if the Doublade is weakened than it becomes a 50/50. Litteraly a 50/50 which isn't "always in Ttar's favour" as Aja would like to think.

Chansey is by far the weakest to pursuit out of this list, but then again measures can be taken to not autolose everytime like wish / protect instead of wish / softboiled.

Talking about mons weak to pursuit, I don't know why Aja has such a hard on for latios, every regen vest pivot can switch on it and pivot into a trapper, stall and balance usually both have a good answer to it. It doesn’t appreciate Ttar being so good and so common either so you could even argue that it got worse. There’s a reason why it’s not S rank, a simple one at that, because it’s not S rank worthy, and most people I’ve talked to regarding viability rankings agree with that.

Then he makes a short list of things that are good with adapt, of which the closest to being broken is Volcanion who runs tinted lens anyway, all the others are perfectly manageable, which really highlights the fact that what makes Ttar and Latios so good isn’t exclusively adapt, but the combination of great bulk, utility and typing for Ttar and great speed alongside the ability to hit on both defences for latios, so much for "we need to start looking into banning abilities" when the problem is clearly the mon and not the ability itself.

As for “every team looking the same”, I just went and opened the three AAA replay from week one of OMPL only to notice that in all three matchup, both teams had NO pokemon in common. So yeah.

If anything I think it might be time for stall to explore some less-easily pursuit trapped options, for one both the most common av pivot have a way to deal with Ttar, meloetta outspeeds and OHKOs on focus blast while Goodra OHKOs on superpower with minimal investment, and neither of theses move are out of place in their movesets. And the previously mentioned baton pass Zapdos.

Other than that I went through my teambuilder to see if ma couple stall teams get absolutely demolished by Ttar + Latios and, they kinda don't.

Here this (somewhat not so recent) team has an outstanding ONE pokemon that cares about pursuit trapping, but Tar can never switch on this pokemon and if he's in it's a 50/50, the others aren't too affected.
This (more recent) one also has one pokemon that is threatened by pursuit, but on witch Ttar can't really switch. Ttar + Latios isn't an insta win either and I've beaten BandTar teams with both of theses teams in roomtours.
EDIT: Oh hey, I found another one.
This one actually has 0 pokemon that get reliably pursuit trapped by Ttar while also packing two solid counters in PH Chesnaugh and Regen Rhydon.

Other than that Imas pretty much said most of the rest of what I wanted to say.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 190-224 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 208-246 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Worth noticing that imas said intimidate.

Regardless I don't really see how that makes adapt worse than other abilities, TC or sheer force run coverage or support to get past its counters, adapt runs support because it can't run coverage, if anything it's limiting?

It's not like coverage is useless on adapt mons, kyurem runs it, special lucario runs it, Honchkrow runs it even Ttar runs it. Which is not something you could say about tinted lens for instance.

You're quite underselling the effect of no LO recoil. It's a godsend and is the thing that gives Thundurus, Genesect, Alakazam and Gengar the amount of endurance (albeit not a while lot) they have. Might even be a tad overselling scald's effectiveness in aaa offensive pokemon (manaphy) whose counters in aaa are generally pokemon that don't mind a burn (Poisoned PH Lax [no one brings it in without the poison having set already but might as well specify], chansey, meloetta).
The entire reason people run mons that don't care about burns is because scald can burn, so saying "Mana counters don't even care about burns" is kind of a weird argument.
 
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Why is Chatot banned? I thought that the move Chatter was banned.
Minor change to the banlist here, but after some convincing from TI I'm going to Ban Chatot instead of banning Chatter. This simplifies the banlist and sets a better precedent for future bans (That we shouldn't effectively ban half a Pokemon instead of banning it entirely) in both AAA and other OMs that may want to use AAA as a reference for how a banlist should be created.

Feel free to ask me any questions.
 

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