AAA Almost Any Ability

i think people are forgetting that tinted lens not only is a detriment to stall, but an even bigger one to balance, which relies on pivoting to walls and well...pivots to be viable, and when a mon like kartana can crush through these mons WITHOUT setup or choice band, you know something is wrong with said mon. not to mention its speed tier is beyond great, allowing it to outpace 108 and below, and on top of that, doesnt have any noteworthy disadvantages of running scarf because its STILL strong enough to obliterate pivots and walls. what makes kartana a problem isn't just raw strength, its raw strength mixed with the fact that it simply doesn't have "Risk reward" scenarios.

for example, running scarf haxorus trades power for the ability to ohko wallbreakers and sweepers in their path, while giving haxorus a slight problem with mons like celesteela, and hippowdon, which would otherwise fall to haxorus' brute power. kartana does not have this. kartana can still mow through bulkier playstyles with a scarf set. and have the speed to dramatically be hard for balance to outpace. meanwhile its SD and banded sets have the speed to keep balance and offense on their toes. kartana poses a huge threat to ALL playstyles with ALL of its sets. which is the issue with it. it doesn't have versatility, or a godlike typing, it has the ability to have NO downsides to what set it decides to run other then being "slightly" weaker to another playstyle. kartana was always like this, and thats why i was constantly screaming for its ban back when i was the leader of aaa. still, understandably, we had bigger issues, so better late then never.
 
My position, as well as the position I believed we tried to implement at the end of Generation 6, is that we will look to ban a few Pokemon rather than an ability, as this meta is centered around abilities. That is why we ban Dragonite and keep Aerilate, and will likely have Kartana banned rather than Tinted Lens. This rule is only broken in the most extreme of cases, such as Fluffy.
 
Laxpras said:
My position, as well as the position I believed we tried to implement at the end of Generation 6, is that we will look to ban a few Pokemon rather than an ability, as this meta is centered around abilities. That is why we ban Dragonite and keep Aerilate, and will likely have Kartana banned rather than Tinted Lens. This rule is only broken in the most extreme of cases, such as Fluffy.
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And hopefully PH...?
 
Racool said:
And hopefully PH...?
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Honestly PH was never the issue for me. While I agree that Snorlax and Suicune are pretty powerful right now and may have broken qualities when equipped with Poison Heal, we should still try to ban the abusers instead of the ability itself. I have yet seen any evidence demonstrating that PH allows all users to be too overbearing compared to other abilities such as Fluffy and Stakeout. Unless I am missing something here, Poison Heal is not broken in of itself, but I agree certain users of it potentially are.

Anyways I feel we have issues to adress right now (mainly Hoopa-U).
 
About Poison Heal, Tpu Fini seems to be more an issue than Snorlax and Suicune due to its access to a taunt that is faster than the majoity of defensive pokemon which shuts down all attempts to phaze her out or to remove the boosts with non-prankster haze.
 
I had problems in the past with PH users, but it was my fault for not preparing for them. I personally don't have real problems with them. Let's see how the meta adapts, before calling out for a suspect.
 
Banded Tinted Lens Victini works quite well against both Fini and Snorlax. Fini, however needs to be weakened before, because it isn't OHKOed by V-Create, but Snorlax is; and Victini outspeeds both of them.
 
There's not really much kind of general preparation you can have for poison heal bar having worry seed on something and just hoping that it matches up correctly against the PH user you're trying to counter. Most of the time you actually need hard answers to the most common PH mons if you don't want to risk losing.

The comment above mine is a good illustration, this man tries to run Victini as a general PH counter, yet Victini not only cannot switch on any of the most common PH sweepers (namely, fini, lax, zyggy and cune), but also loses to all of them after a single boost.

And that's not talking about off meta PH sweepers.
 
motherlove said:
There's not really much kind of general preparation you can have for poison heal bar having worry seed on something and just hoping that it matches up correctly against the PH user you're trying to counter. Most of the time you actually need hard answers to the most common PH mons if you don't want to risk losing.

The comment above mine is a good illustration, this man tries to run Victini as a general PH counter, yet Victini not only cannot switch on any of the most common PH sweepers (namely, fini, lax, zyggy and cune), but also loses to all of them after a single boost.

And that's not talking about off meta PH sweepers.
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imo motherlove, once kart goes ppl will finally realise how annoying PH is. I predict PH diancie will make a comeback, and also PH fini is going to rek soooo many teams. PH in general will become a staple on every team... and the meta will become hell to play, as every single match will be a slog. Then hopefully people will petition for a PH ban, and we wont have to see the likes of PH ever again this gen :)
 
To be honest, I think it's more of an issue because there isn't a single ability clause rather than PH itself being borked. The main thing as someone said already is that it's difficult to counter couple of PH mons(because of different typings and the PH check getting worn out by dealing with one of them) on same team + couple of regen mons for an average team if opponent makes good plays.

But like I don't see how PH would itself be an issue, I mean like yeah it's a super strong ability for balanced builds but you have to prepare to for it like you do with every other strong shit in the meta. If we have a single ability clause, it should be much more manageable even post kartana ban.

Anyways we'll have to see how the meta develops after kart ban since stuff like skarm won't be as necessary as they are right now so that might give teams an option for a additional counter since most PH mons are vulnerable to tinted lens, which imo is a good ability to run anyways. Other than that normalize gengar, opposing PH mons all do well against PH mons in general and obviously there is HO.
 
While looking at PH and the stance on banning certain mons over abilities, I personally have to ask are Suicune and Snorlax broken with any other abilities? They could both run unaware and Snor could run a regenvest set as well but I don't think either of those are broken.

Kart is broken because it can run a variety of abilities and still find massive success, beyond just tinted lens, though that is the biggest one. Galvanize, Steelworker, Adapt all can be incredibly powerful on Kart making it unpredictable.

darksylvion said:
To be honest, I think it's more of an issue because there isn't a single ability clause rather than PH itself being borked. The main thing as someone said already is that it's difficult to counter couple of PH mons(because of different typings and the PH check getting worn out by dealing with one of them) on same team + couple of regen mons for an average team if opponent makes good plays.
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A single ability clause I feel would also help, but Stall, as much as I hate it, would suffer for it a fair bit compared to offense or balance.
 
darksylvion said:
To be honest, I think it's more of an issue because there isn't a single ability clause rather than PH itself being borked. The main thing as someone said already is that it's difficult to counter couple of PH mons(because of different typings and the PH check getting worn out by dealing with one of them) on same team + couple of regen mons for an average team if opponent makes good plays.

But like I don't see how PH would itself be an issue, I mean like yeah it's a super strong ability for balanced builds but you have to prepare to for it like you do with every other strong shit in the meta. If we have a single ability clause, it should be much more manageable even post kartana ban.

Anyways we'll have to see how the meta develops after kart ban since stuff like skarm won't be as necessary as they are right now so that might give teams an option for a additional counter since most PH mons are vulnerable to tinted lens, which imo is a good ability to run anyways. Other than that normalize gengar, opposing PH mons all do well against PH mons in general and obviously there is HO.
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Yeah, I believe I was the one who mentioned the 2-ability clause earlier anyways, so obviously I agree with you. However, while the fact that the 2 ability clause is at the heart of the issue... I simply do not see lax altering that anytime soon. Therefore I am going after the biggest issue (imo) that has resulted from the 2 ability clause, and that is PH. Dual PH + dual regen is absolute filth, and hell to break down, especially with the bans to so many of the viable stallbreakers. The reason why this wasnt an issue a while back was cos of stuff like stakeout, which made it very difficult for stall to ppivot around its ph and regen mons. However, with most of the wallbreakers gone, this issue I feel will start to dominate the meta. Banning PH would go a long way to making the meta more balanced imo, and will also just make the meta more fun to play. As for regen, well i see no need for it to be banned. Its a useful ability, but nowhere near as good as PH, as regen users are always pivots, while PH users can also be setup sweepers. Its just when 2 regen mons are paired with the deadly dual PH combo that things get annoying.

I feel like ive repeated myself a lot, and I dont think there is anything else I can say on the matter that would be valuable to anyone, so im just going to step back now. Hopefully there will be a PH suspect, if not... oh well.
 
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Lol, why can unboosted kartana without a boosting nature 2HKO Physically defensive Skarmory on a non super effective coverage move.

Anyway shoutouts to game freak for introducing the first ever scarf wallbreaker.

That'll be a ban for me.

Kartana, more like Banana amarite?
 
Kinda a quick and choppy post, but obligatory repost of my arguments for a 1 ability clause here and here. Did not really receive a satisfactory response then.
I agree with the sentiments about PH that have been mentioned by motherlove and golisopodman. It may be a less of a problem now because AAA does have the kartanas, the unbounds etc but there's already been a discussion about it resurfacing yet again. I understand that AAA is trying to prioritize Pokemon bans over Ability bans, but how is that threshold defined? How many mons broken with that ability does it take to figure out that the ability is the issue?
 
I mean it's not really logical to attempt to quantify something like that. Like everything else involved in a ban of any sort, there is a subjective component. Let's compare Fluffy and Tough Claws regarding how the affect the majority of Pokemon.

Was Fluffy the problem, or was it specific mons?
Well, really any mediocre mon with recovery became an insane defensive wall with Fluffy, so it was clearly Fluffy. Things like Latias became damn hard to break, while Volcarona became a set up sweeper that you could no longer just take down with a strong physical attack. If you think about it, you can double just about any mon's (that has recovery) defense and it becomes a legitimate wall. Mew, Celebi, Togekiss, Vaporeon, etc etc.
Do /ds bst>500, recovery, def>70, all - you'll see essentially every listed mon becomes a great phys wall. I think it's near indisputable that Fluffy was the problem.

Is Touch Claws the problem, or is it specific users?
Using similar logic, Tough Claws is nowhere near as easy to just spam on any attacker. Even if you limit your choices to things with atk/spa greater than 100, your options are not that numerous. A few mons stick out - Latios, Kart, etc - but this is generally limited to mons that cant break through common types such as steel. Thus, it makes more sense to ban the few mons if any become too broken - which imo Kartana is the only mon broken exclusively from TLens.

So where does Poison Heal fall into this?
So PH is clearly a great ability, but I think you guys are really overselling its offensive potency and underselling its checks. Tapu Fini is walled by literally any Unaware user. It's stall breaker set is only good against stall - and also can be stopped with things like Magic Bounce or phazing. Oh, phazing, right. Did we forget how easy it is to just send PH users out since most of them start pretty weak? imo, PH is much more annoying on the defensive end, it can be hard to break through especially when paired with other walls. The remedy for this has been provided in the forms of Z-Moves. Z-Move attackers can beat most PH users so easily, and even if you don't use that there are so many insane attackers rn like Mamo, Terrak, Xurk, etc. Also, we have great pivots with regenvesters like Magearna that you can easily use to get your wallbreakers in safely. I was in favor of banning Cune/Lax last gen, but right now i really don't see anything being broken with PH, and as such I don't see PH being broken. The only mon I would consider is Zygarde as it has a move that hits everything and can prevent phazing with STAB DTail.

I hate to be that guy that just says "lol be better" but really you all can be more creative or just use the prominent offensive powers in the meta to break PH without too much trouble.
 
To give you all an idea about Fluffy... I once used a Typhlosion with Fluffy when it was available for general use.
It, too, was a serviceable physical wall. Actually, Typhlosion is a decent running off point for why Tinted Lens is okay.

Fluffy makes just about everything have stupid physical defense. Chesnaught? Can now take strikes from Kartana and Pheromosa all day. And that's a tamer example. Something like Suicune or Ferrothorn become nearly impossible to break. It was an easy choice.

Tinted Lens, on the other hand, simply brightens the good points about sweepers. Yes, this was one of the abilities that broke Kartana. It also has Steelworker, Grassy Surge, and Galvanize sets, all of which are completely devastating right out of the gate, and need a dedicated wall in order to stop. And even that was dicey.

And now, to return to that Typhlosion. As you all know, it's a Fire attacker. Launches Fire Blasts and Eruptions. Launching these without many resistances helps greatly with its viability, but does not break it in two. Well then, why would that be? Several reasons, really. For one, there are still general Special walls that can easily tussle with Typhlosion, even without the resistance. Muk and Goodra come to mind here. Secondly, it's still pretty open to a revenge KO. 100 base speed is solid, but most teams have something to outspeed a Typhlosion. Lastly... Typhlosion isn't actually that powerful. It has okay special attack, but that's not enough to bust through some of the more powerful walls around.

And yeah, Storm Drain Fire types kind of stop Tapu Fini dead in its tracks.... in addition to Magic Bounce and Unaware, which are solid choices as always.

As for Poison Heal... the problem for me isn't Suicune or Tapu Fini. Water immunity abilities are very useful against them, and both are not too hard to Roar away, either. The problems to me are Snorlax and (especially) Zygarde. And I think the problem is that this place takes Zygarde to be on par with the rest of the playing field... in short, you're actually dealing with a Uber here. It's telling when even in its 50% form, you have pretty obscene bulk (particularly from the physical side) and not one, but three of the best moves in the game. Those being Thousand Arrows, Thousand Waves, and Core Enforcer. Those last two are underutilized, imo, and Core Enforcer is particularly devastating in AAA. If used on a predicted switch, it can range from bad (goodbye, healing source) to complete disaster (my levitate I was using to dodge waves is gone) Yeah, Tapu Fini is a good answer, but it's really telling that your best answer to a Poison Heal mon.... is another Poison Heal mon. Thousand Waves is a permanent trapping move, which is just an invitation for a setup sweep, if done properly.

As for Snorlax, Facade and its coverage options just hit too hard for how fat it is. You basically need a Steel with reliable recovery to stand a good chance. Or an Unaware Steel... Or ability negation. Or smacking it quickly with a Close Combat, but even one Curse means it survives some pretty hefty ones.

Anyways, in short, we should look at Zygarde, Hoopa-U (it's still a very powerful force that has several options outside Tinted Lens), and perhaps Snorlax.

E: Oops, I forgot about Taunt. Though with Tapu Fini's standard set, using Taunt means it's a complete sitting duck versus Storm Drain/Water Absorb. Even more than it already is.
 
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If Tapu Fini carries Taunt, it can't be phazed (immune to Dragon Tail) and chips unaware walls down with Scald/Moonblast, while they can do nothing, and if they have attacking moves, this damage gets healed instantly by poison heal. That means, you need a faster taunt to stop her and hope that you don't get taunted on the switchin. Too bad that Fini outspeeds most defensive mons unless they have prankster.

This is, why I have much more problems against Tapu Fini than against Snorlax. Snorlax is so slow that it can easily be taunted to prevent curse, and then it can be killed by a strong enough physical attack like Close Combat or banded V-Create.

Tapu Fini on the other site is even unboosted too bulky to get killed by brute force, and the attacker risks scald burns too.
 
Here are a few sets I've been running. They've been working really well. You may have seen me run these on Showdown as UmbrionKnight.

796.png

XURXITREE
Set #1: No Guard Revenge Killer/Lead
Xurkitree @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 4 SpA / 248 SpD
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Zap Cannon
- Dazzling Gleam
- Energy Ball
Set #2: Choice Specs Sturdy Revenge Killer/Lead
Xurkitree @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Signal Beam
596.png

GALVANTULA
Set Up/Support/Lead
Galvantula @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Sticky Web
- Signal Beam
- Light Screen
797.png

CELESTEELA
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Air Slash
- Substitute
- Protect
146.png

MOLTRES
Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Substitute
073.png

TENTACRUEL
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Acid Spray
- Toxic Spikes

Let me know what you think! :)
 
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GangStark said:
Here are a few sets I've been running. They've been working really well. You may have seen me run these on Showdown as UmbrionKnight.

796.png

XURXITREE
Set #1: No Guard Revenge Killer/Lead
Xurkitree @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 4 SpA / 248 SpD
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Zap Cannon
- Dazzling Gleam
- Energy Ball
Set #2: Choice Specs Sturdy Revenge Killer/Lead
Xurkitree @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Signal Beam
596.png

GALVANTULA
Set Up/Support/Lead
Galvantula @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Sticky Web
- Signal Beam
- Light Screen
797.png

CELESTEELA
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Air Slash
- Substitute
- Protect
146.png

MOLTRES
Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Substitute
073.png

TENTACRUEL
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Acid Spray
- Toxic Spikes

Let me know what you think! :)
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Some interesting stuff here. In the future, it's much better if you explain very briefly why a one set is supposed to be better than the most common one, or just why you use it on a specific team. Makes things easier to put in context are sometimes it's not that obvious.

No Guard Xurkitree is pretty darn good, thought I do recommend using Tail Glow, putting a mon to sleep easily gets you a free turn to get a tail glow up. The most common set is psychicium z with hypnosis / tbolt / tail glow and hp ice to get the +1 in speed and sweep after a tail glow, you might want to try it out.

I don't think it's worth sacrificing Galvantula's speed tier for the added bulk, it's a pretty fast web setter which makes him quite reliable/ He also beats some defoggers, especially skarmory, which give him an edge over other webs setters.
In general thought I don't see that set being too good. It loses all offensive presence since you're running no electric stab and you have signal beam instead of bug buzz (fsr), and just seems less reliable of a setter as the standard max speed / special atk mold breaker set. Sticky webs team tend to rely on it quite a fair bit so I'd rather not lose to the first bouncer around. Even for a light screen.

Celesteela seems pretty decent albeit somewhat niche since it has other strong abilities competing for the place like Volt Absorb and Regenerator.

I don't think moltres has a lot to offer over a lot of other special attackers, especially since it's usually forced to run Magic Guard. It feels nice to see a non no guard set but it seems somewhat less consistent and/or reliable then stuff like sheer force + life orb special attackers with more speed like Thundurus, Strong Special attackers like Volcarona or even stuff like aerilate noivern. Moltres does have the benefit of beating Magearna on the switch but that is at the cost of pretty low speed and losing 50% on sr switchin. It probably has uses on specific teams and y'know, maybe it's been working well for you, but in general it's probably outclassed for any specific role it's doing, especially considering Volcarona is one of the best mons in the meta rn.

Care to explain what the EVs do on tentacruel? Other than that, sadly, probably not my go to set for it. Some ground types like Landorus and Zygarde still beat it, and in general I think that specific, physically defensive set is better ran by toxapex due to the recovery and its ability to switch on fighting types better. I usually much rather run either regenerator with clear smog to make it a really reliable check to boosters like manaphy, tapu fini and suicune, as well as spinning more reliably. Or Volt Absorb to block mag volt switches and act as a semi reliable thundurus / xurkitree check.
Again it's something that probably fits on specific teams, it's weird to see without context.
 
I tried for the first time this meta, testing more or less silly stuffs, with rather satisfying results, at least at rather low ladder.

tapukoko.gif

Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Mirror Move
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge

Since I read about z-mirror move mechanics, I wanted to use it. It's a little bit gimmicky, but getting a +2 Atk boost while revenge killing can turn a match. Maybe I should run a - Def / SpDef nature to hit harder when mirror moving a special move.
(I also have trouble knowing when the move 'fails', but... Not a problem when the opponent runs strange sets / you crits http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7almostanyability-562255633 )

I tried with it :
Galvanize light ball Pikachu with fake-out + quick attack.
But Pikachu attracts ground types like a magnet. So I tried Refrigerate, which worked suprisingly well.
Triage life-orb Shiinotic.
I thought priority Strength sapp + Giga drain would be nice. But Strength sapp is rather bad after all. I guess a prankster defensive set would be better.
Grassy surge AV A-Muk.
Levitate is probably better, but grassy terrain gives AV Muk a form of recovery, and the main point was to increase the power of the Shiinotic triage Giga-drain.
 
NestorKennard said:
I tried for the first time this meta, testing more or less silly stuffs, with rather satisfying results, at least at rather low ladder.

tapukoko.gif

Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Mirror Move
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge

Since I read about z-mirror move mechanics, I wanted to use it. It's a little bit gimmicky, but getting a +2 Atk boost while revenge killing can turn a match. Maybe I should run a - Def / SpDef nature to hit harder when mirror moving a special move.
(I also have trouble knowing when the move 'fails', but... Not a problem when the opponent runs strange sets / you crits http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7almostanyability-562255633 )

I tried with it :
Galvanize light ball Pikachu with fake-out + quick attack.
But Pikachu attracts ground types like a magnet. So I tried Refrigerate, which worked suprisingly well.
Triage life-orb Shiinotic.
I thought priority Strength sapp + Giga drain would be nice. But Strength sapp is rather bad after all. I guess a prankster defensive set would be better.
Grassy surge AV A-Muk.
Levitate is probably better, but grassy terrain gives AV Muk a form of recovery, and the main point was to increase the power of the Shiinotic triage Giga-drain.
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Nice set man, imo that set has hyper offense written all over it, have you tried it with webs support?

Tapu koko's naturally high speed means it out-speeds various shit like noivern which is a general issue for webs teams and due to decent coverage not much takes on a +2 koko and obviously scarfers can't revenge anymore. It could just be an excellent cleaner in general.
 
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