AAA Almost Any Ability

It is a pretty sinister trick against a stall team, though, and doesn't add anything to AAA...
The people that faced this set were incredibly salty about it... Let me ask you something. How many of those Normalize Gengars used Mean Look first?

If you're slower and are not using a move to switch yourself out the turn Gengar traps you, you literally have to faint. We haven't properly defined Normalize Gengar... until now, where it holds the same role as the similar Mega Gengar. Even the existence of this on the opposing team can make your opponent act differently, which can be used and abused. There are certainly ways to deal with it, but the tools that AAA has when compared to something like BH are much more limited to deal with gimmicks such as this. Hence my reaction to this being so severe right off the bat.... I'm certainly open to counterarguments supporting this.
There are two factors that most easily factor in to a quickban:

•Does it eliminate skill and tactics in favor of dumb luck? (especially luck in unbalanced favor to the player)

•Is the ban candidate in question simply too versatile to plan for?

As annoying as normalize skill swapper ghosts are, the list of users are pretty finite, and as was said before, folks have successfully dealt with it in past gen AAA. I know I found poison heal annoying AF, but its safe to assume that if it existed in the past, there's ways around it.

Here's the gen6 AAA OP for some good details: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/almost-any-ability.3528058/

As for counters, I'd not really worry about it unless it became that common in the meta. Just take the hit and keep playing.

Off the top of my head, here's some counters:

•Trick Ring Target
•Dark types (trapping nerf)
•shed skin
•Uturn/volt switch/baton pass
•Red Card/roar/whirlwind
(May I suggest keeping Red Card on a slow pokemon with Stakeout?)
•Status
•outright kill them before they can use Skill Swap (If you're fast, you'll get two licks on 'em)
•Switch out before they use Mean Look

Also, if you have a kinda cheap strategy and don't want people to be salty about it, try just being nice. A friendly comment on their pokemon nicknames or that you like their mono-X team or whatever. And offer counters if they're annoyed.

I'm not accusing you of being nasty, but I know I had to take a step back and not start fussing for a quickban after a bad first encounter with a Poison Heal wall, and the user kept insulting my strats. I was preeeety salty. But I try to keep that part to myself. :x
 
It is a pretty sinister trick against a stall team, though, and doesn't add anything to AAA...
The people that faced this set were incredibly salty about it... Let me ask you something. How many of those Normalize Gengars used Mean Look first?

If you're slower and are not using a move to switch yourself out the turn Gengar traps you, you literally have to faint. We haven't properly defined Normalize Gengar... until now, where it holds the same role as the similar Mega Gengar. Even the existence of this on the opposing team can make your opponent act differently, which can be used and abused. There are certainly ways to deal with it, but the tools that AAA has when compared to something like BH are much more limited to deal with gimmicks such as this. Hence my reaction to this being so severe right off the bat.... I'm certainly open to counterarguments supporting this.
Normalize has always been a thing and rarely (if ever) been good. The fact that ghosts types cant be trapped(and that doublade is good), that magic bounce (you cant mean look a magic bounce user, so if they switch into it theyre always safe, until u skill swap and there they can do whatever) is a thing, that pursuit trapping also is (for example AV regen escavalier on stall) makes the set decent at best against stall, especially compared to things like whirlpool perish song PH azumarill, which is the same in terms of performance vs any other matchup but stall (a.k.a. bad)(it does annoy the shit out of stall tho).

Edit:shed shell skarm is also a thing w/ magnet pull around
 
Foresight also kinda bypass the fact that normalize turn your attacks into Normal type, dunno how much pokemons learn it though to be effective, but that's a way to deal with it.

Of course using Skill Swap is also a way to deal with it.

Edit: Merciless Gengar is amazing
 
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Hey, thanks for the intelligent discussion here on Normalize. There's some good points all around here.
There are two factors that most easily factor in to a quickban:

•Does it eliminate skill and tactics in favor of dumb luck? (especially luck in unbalanced favor to the player)

•Is the ban candidate in question simply too versatile to plan for?

As annoying as normalize skill swapper ghosts are, the list of users are pretty finite, and as was said before, folks have successfully dealt with it in past gen AAA. I know I found poison heal annoying AF, but its safe to assume that if it existed in the past, there's ways around it.

Here's the gen6 AAA OP for some good details: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/almost-any-ability.3528058/

As for counters, I'd not really worry about it unless it became that common in the meta. Just take the hit and keep playing.

Off the top of my head, here's some counters:

•Trick Ring Target
•Dark types (trapping nerf)
•shed skin
•Uturn/volt switch/baton pass
•Red Card/roar/whirlwind
(May I suggest keeping Red Card on a slow pokemon with Stakeout?)
•Status
•outright kill them before they can use Skill Swap (If you're fast, you'll get two licks on 'em)
•Switch out before they use Mean Look

Also, if you have a kinda cheap strategy and don't want people to be salty about it, try just being nice. A friendly comment on their pokemon nicknames or that you like their mono-X team or whatever. And offer counters if they're annoyed.

I'm not accusing you of being nasty, but I know I had to take a step back and not start fussing for a quickban after a bad first encounter with a Poison Heal wall, and the user kept insulting my strats. I was preeeety salty. But I try to keep that part to myself. :x
Hey, you're one of the people that faced that team. Good to see you took it well. Don't worry; me and that other person are on good terms now.

As for that Normalize strategy, it doesn't matter how many users there are; they'll all want a very close variation to that set. I have enough evidence to concede that it probably isn't broken now, and that opening post is likely just a big kneejerk reaction, but there's still not too many answers to it in stall teams...

After a bit of mulling it over, Mismagius is probably the better user of this strategy, trading 5 points of speed for 30 of SpDef, and performing everything that Gengar can, too. Taunt's really there to stop Status and phasing moves like Whirlwind. It's that move that really makes this strategy rough, and I don't think anyone really mentioned Taunt usage in the original discussion. It's not just a filler move; it's vital. Now that I think about it, Rock Polish + Baton Pass is another (rare) answer to the strategy, and Magic Bounce messes it up, too. Also, both Normalize abusers can use Perish Song, which will completely dodge the issue of move immunities and Red Cards....
(As a side note, Foresight is an interesting way to make Normalize usable, if rather gimmicky...)

Enough about strategies that I have abandoned due to fear of making too many enemies. I saw a really good idea in there, and am going to expand on it:

Hydreigon @ Red Card
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon/Fire Blast/Earth Power/Surf
- Roost/Earth Power/Flash Cannon/Superpower

Red Card guarantees the Stakeout activation, as long as you can survive the hit. Dual STABs are for smashing as much as the world as possible, and the third slot is coverage based on what you want to hit. Flash Cannon hits the many Fairies prancing around, Fire Blast hits Magearna, among other Steel types, Earth Power smacks Flash Fire Steels and Heatran, and Surf is just good neutral coverage. Roost is to keep healthy, but can also be replaced with additional coverage, if needed. EVs are done in order to take a hit, and then retaliate with incredible force.
 
I wish people could stop having that "Lol, ur shit, stop talking" attitude when a newer player brings up something. This set has always been a very effective and imo underated lure, because it's one of the harder ones to predict and just kills a mon. But a lot of people who use it low ladder use it badly (not clicking mean look first) which made a lot of better people dismiss it as a shit set.

Sheer force Gengar counters are almost exclusively composed of RegenVest users, and it's usually the thing you go to on any gengar set to scout its set / ability because in theory it doesn't have one move that can OHKO you. Those RegenVest users lose to Normalize Gengar every single time, and so does pretty much every Gengar counter.
So yeah sure you say that in theory Doublade can switch on it and dick around until Gengar Skill swaps before switching out, but you're essentially saying that you should always switch your Doublade against a Gengar here. (I don't even know why escavalier was brought up since it's the exact thing Gengar beats)

The thing is, assuming you have something that can deal with it, Norm Gengar becomes absolute deadweight against Stall once its set is revealed. So as long as you know that Normalize is a possibility, you can scout for it. If you have say a Meloetta as your hard counter to Gengar, but you're also Packing a Skarmory and a Weavile, then instead of going straight into Melo you can go in either Skarm on a predicted Sludge Wave or Weavile on a predicted Shadow Ball depending on what pokemon Gengar is forcing out, and then go into your counter once its set is revealed (for normalize either a Ghost type, a Magic Bounce mon, and some other shit like Skarm). It's also worth considering that if Meloetta was only there to wall gengar on the opposing team then it doesn't really matter if it drops.

Of course if you don't have anything that can deal with PerishTrapping then Gengar will just pick your mons one by one, but that's just lackluster teambuilding.


EDIT: Super secret hidden team dump
 
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I am asking for a modification of sleep clause to ban sleep talk + comatose. While this may not be broken per se (although quite strong), it is highly uncompetitve due to its interaction with shuffling.

sleep talk allows you to call shuffling moves at normal priority, meaning that a mon like aerodactyl or garchomp can suffle you around for 16 turns,which is incredibly deadly if rocks are up. In addition, except magic bounce, any couterplay relies on killing the mon, meaning that it has to switch in or, should i say, eventually be shuffled in. While offensive teams may have high chances to get shuffled into such a counter, more defensive teams struggle to fight back.

Comatose+sleep talk+shuffling is highly impredictable due to shuffling moves being common, meaning that you do not ever know if you can sac your magic bounce user. The fact that this can sometimes create situation where you cannot do anything for 16 turns should be enough, compared to the reason why shadow tag was banned (because it blocked ONE of your possible move, compared to comatose being able to block all of them, and creating at best random(offense), and at worst highly frustrating (stall) situation.

Even magic bounce isnt enough, as dragon tail is also a thing, meaning that magic bounce fairy type are the only true counter. And if they are using something that may threaten your counter, you are not even sure whether you should switchin or not, because comatose is a decent (although sub par) ability per se/people on the ladder can be crazy.
 
I didn't know that was possible tbh, but yeah that's definitely broken, no doubt about it.

Question being what do we ban.
I'd say Comatose + Sleep Talk. Sleep Talk and phazing are too generally useful to ban wholesale just to get rid of one niche strategy. Comatose would be easier to ban without fucking up things for everyone else, but it's a nifty way to avoid status that has benefits over Magic Guard/Magic Bounce/Poison Heal (avoids attack drop from burn and sleep and paralysis; avoids status from attacking moves/Tspikes and ignores Mold Breaker; leaves the item slot open and is available to Poison/Steel-types), and we should at least be sure that it's niche-viable at best before taking it out as collateral damage.

We can always simplify the ban later, if it comes to that. I just feel like this is one of those times where the broken element is specific enough that it doesn't raise the specter of ambiguity that other complex bans raise.
 
I agree with banning Comatose+Sleep Talk, as it acts as kind of a similar way of Prankster+phazing moves (pre gen 6) that was corrected for the same reasons. I think the combo should effectively be banned.

Edit: It's Prankster+Copycat+phazing.
 
I agree with banning Comatose+Sleep Talk, as it acts as kind of a similar way of Prankster+phazing moves (pre gen 6) that was corrected for the same reasons. I think the combo should effectively be banned.
Not exactly because prankster has priority.

Thought still having used it a bit on ladder, I don't think destroying an entire team with whirlwind while the opponent doesn't even get to click a move is in any kind of way "fair".
 
even if you are right, i was talking about the fact that you could just keep phazing the team away while she cannot do anything else back barring a fairy type magic bouncer. It's highly uncompetitive and not fair at all. Even Parental Bond wasnt that broken LOL.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
we aren't complex banning. i don't care if comatose is a okay ability outside of sleeptalk spam, its not a complex ban i'm willing to take. i regret popularizing it on ladder, because now i have to seriously consider banning an ability for one small detail again. but i feel like it was bound to happen anyways. but yeah no complex bans. if i ban this, people will start asking for ate+espeed, pbond+natures madness(which i was okay with but was shot down), and other preposterous ideas. idk.
 
we aren't complex banning. i don't care if comatose is a okay ability outside of sleeptalk spam, its not a complex ban i'm willing to take. i regret popularizing it on ladder, because now i have to seriously consider banning an ability for one small detail again. but i feel like it was bound to happen anyways. but yeah no complex bans. if i ban this, people will start asking for ate+espeed, pbond+natures madness(which i was okay with but was shot down), and other preposterous ideas. idk.
In that case the right thing to do is just ban Comatose. When I first saw the Comatose post, I was slightly feeling what made it broken, and thought it had a handful of checks. After seeing it in action, I realized that this is something that needed to be shut down. Being able to slap a Choice Scarf and outspeed and blow away everything is dumb. I don't know how BH is going to deal with this development, but it's clear we need to something about it here.
 
Question: Do Shadow Shield and Full Metal Body qualify as respectively Multiscale and Clear Body in the Ability Clause, because they act a little differently (aka not being affected by Mold Breaker and it's variants)
 
Question: Do Shadow Shield and Full Metal Body qualify as respectively Multiscale and Clear Body in the Ability Clause, because they act a little differently (aka not being affected by Mold Breaker and it's variants)
Yeah, neither of them are affected by Mold Breaker. They're both pretty solid defensively for that reason, but are commonly eschewed for more potent abilities like Regenerator and immunities.
 
Yeah, neither of them are affected by Mold Breaker. They're both pretty solid defensively for that reason, but are commonly eschewed for more potent abilities like Regenerator and immunities.
Well, I was asking if the Ability Clause in AAA affects them when in conjunction with Clear Body/Multiscale (aka having 2 Multiscale mons and a Shadow Shield mon, is that allowed)
 
Well, I was asking if the Ability Clause in AAA affects them when in conjunction with Clear Body/Multiscale (aka having 2 Multiscale mons and a Shadow Shield mon, is that allowed)
No, if it's not the same ability it's not affected.
Same for queenly and dazzling, you could run 2 queenly and 2 dazzling if you wanted to.
 
shadow shield and full metal body should not be considered as multiscale/clear body variants, are they aren't affected by mold breaker WHICH is enough for making them different from the latter two.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
shadow shield and full metal body should not be considered as multiscale/clear body variants, are they aren't affected by mold breaker WHICH is enough for making them different from the latter two.
While you may be right in that they aren't affected by mold breaker, they technically accomplish the same thing, halving damage and preventing stat drops respectively, just with an added "not affected by this anymore" thrown in. I think putting them as variants is justified for that reason.
 

EV

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While you may be right in that they aren't affected by mold breaker, they technically accomplish the same thing, halving damage and preventing stat drops respectively, just with an added "not affected by this anymore" thrown in. I think putting them as variants is justified for that reason.
No? Ignoring the ability that's supposed to ignore target abilities is a pretty big deal. They're definitely not the same. Likewise, Water Bubble is an upgraded Water Veil + Heatproof but it certainly shouldn't be considered a variant of those two.
 
I'm having some surprisingly consistent success with Dazzling Focus Sash Ninjask.

It takes down Buswole and Pheromosa like nobodies business with STAB Air Cutter and can get a Swords Dance off to either Leech Life its health back up or baton pass it on to a better suited physical partner. (AKA- somepoke whom can better deal with Aerialate Dragonite, though Dazzling Ninjask tends to get away with an extra boost before BPing)

Also, Desolate Land is an excellent choice for any pokemon with Moonlight/Synthesis/Morning Sun- Alolan Exeggutor is a good choice with the Dragon Fire resist, though Necrosma apparently gets access to two solar healing options. (not that I've used it) And I don't think Kartana is the best option for that, either.

I also am liking Aerialate Lucario with the accompanyment of Bullet Punch and fighting STAB. Its a good subject for Ninjask's BP, though I do feel like someone could pull this off better.
 
Me First Protean Pheremosa is interesting. Takes any attack the opponent uses, gains STAB on it with 137 offenses, and hits them with 1.5x the normal power of that move, as if a terrain were up. It has 151 speed so it shou'ld always get to use Me First... Protect/Ice Beam/U-Turn/Me First? U-Turn for momentum, Ice Beam for coverage, Protect to scout. Maybe 128 Attack/128 Special Attack/252+ Speed? I'll make a longer post when I have the time.
 

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