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Corviknight is a really great physical check and roll compressor in AAA, and is first in usage for a reason. However, despite all its strengths, there are a few different ways to beat it consistently. I will highlight a few of them real quick.
Something a bit more specific than what UT already mentioned. Given that corv tends to not run regen, and instead usually runs intimidate, it means that its pretty solid at answering mons that fall just short of 2hkoing like CB terrak or dont pack enough of a punch to punish it for eating a hit and uturning out. Mons it tends to struggle with however, are those physical attackers that its supposed to check, but it cant hit supereffectively and cant easily eat boosted hits from. A good example is LO SD Adapt Terrakion.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 354-419 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 189-223 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
An intimidated terrakion still has a chance to ohko corviknight after an SD with CC. And corv doesnt even ohko back either. So you either sac your corv to chip the terrak or try to pivot out while taking massive chip on your general physical answer. Fire coverage chomp can do similarly well vs it, altho it doesnt hit as hard and needs more than one instance of this scenario to meaningfully wear it down.
Thought I'd share my views on who the Blacephalon ban benefits and hampers based on my experience and what I've seen. Anyone can feel free to disagree!
Who Gets Better
Sub-107 mons Blace outran and threatened a KO against unless they ran Choice Scarf.
I specifically mean DesoTran in this. Blace was not only capable of outrunning all of these if they didn't opt for a Scarf, but it also threatened a KO. Shadow Ball OHKO'd Lele, Dhelm if it could come in once the terrain expired or was overwritten, and had a favourable chance to OHKO Phys Def Mew (guaranteed if SFLO or Adapt). It OHKO'd DesoTran, Gapdos, Rona, Gene, and non-AV Rachi with Mind Blown.
Flash Fire/Primordial Sea Dark- and Steel-types
FF/PrimSea Dark-types were only used specifically to counter Blace and had no other use outside of that; gaining an extra immunity can always be helpful, but in my opinion, mons generally want immunities to something they're weak rather than neutral against. Moreover, other Fire-types such as Tran, Canion, Ace, Tflame, Tres, etc. had alternate ways to beat them or do lots of damage via their coverage/secondary STABs. Also, Dark-types running PrimSea could get their weather overwritten and thus forced out if a DesoLand Fire-type switched in. As for the FF Steel-types, they will continue to see usage perhaps to patch specific team weaknesses and since there are other very good Fire-types, but Blace's ban allows Ferro to get away with running other abilities such as Regen, Bulletproof, DS or Corve DS, Intim, etc. more often. These Dark-types get better because they get to use abilities that patch a larger amount of individual/team weaknesses or magnify their breaking capabilities. For example, Mandi can run an ability such as Unaware + Foul Play to cover physical setup sweepers or Magic Bounce to keep hazards off the field; Zarude can continue running GS, TC, Adapt, or, on bulkier variants, something like MB and Adapt or Tech on Bish.
Triage
I believe Triage users, specifically Lele, Hat, Kommo, and Bulu, will very slightly improve. Blace took 0 from Kommo's DP, and if it didn't run something like EQ (not sure how common it was on it), then it could threaten a 2HKO against it. Shadow Ball always OHKO'd Lele and Hat at +0 and OHKO'd at +1 SpA/SpD if running Adapt Specs or SFLO while Modest LO Dkiss from both (usually in Hat's case) 3HKO'd Blace since it could take special hits surprisingly well. Unless Bulu could get up an SD, it folded to Fire STAB while only 2HKOing with LO Horn Leech from full.
Trick Room
Blace threatened all of the Trick Room setters--especially SubMind Blace variants. It threatened a KO against Hat, Bro, and Mew if they didn't run an item such as Sash or Kasib Berry, overwhelmed Cress and KO'd if Adapt Specs, threatened a KO against Stak with Mind Blown, and could Taunt, hide behind a Sub, or remove P2's Eviolite with either Knock or Trick which forced P2 to run Foul Play/Shadow Ball to not get invalidated by it. There's a lack of speedy Ghost-types in this format now, and rightfully so, that can run Sub which TR setters generally hate, so this gives the setters an easier time.
Who Gets Worse
Sp. Def Regen/RegenVesters--specifically ones that resisted its powerful Fire STABs
Even though they all hated getting their item Knocked, whether it be Blace's teammate(s) or by Blace itself, Specially defensive Regen mons, particularly RevenVesters, that resisted moves such as Mind Blown were somewhat commonly used to deal with Blace. They could sponge a Mind Blown/Blast or Shadow Ball, usually threaten a KO in return, and gain most of whatever damage Blace did to it back via Regen if their item was still intact. RegenVesters such as Chomp and Pert will certainly still see usage, but I see Blace's ban causing them to fall a bit out of favour for PDef Regen Pert or more offensive Regen Chomp variants. I definitely see Vally-D, Drag, and RegenVest Water-types significantly decreasing in usage.
Mons that resisted both of Blace's STABs
I believe these mons were by far the best and only consistent answers to Blace for the sole reason they resisted both STABs--especially if they ran RegenVest themselves. Even if they had their Vest removed, they could sponge Blace's STABs very comfortably from every Blace variant (whether it be the popular MGLO or lesser used variants such as SFLO, Adapt, DesoLand) and threaten a KO in return. However, similar to many of the RegenVesters above, I see them significantly falling out of favour since IMO that was their biggest feat. Though I could eventually see more offensive Hyd and Ttar variants popping up here and there.
Mons that outran and threatened a KO against Blace
Was hesitant to even make this sub-category let alone put it in the "worse" category since I believe most if not all of these will remain relatively unchanged in overall viability after Blace's ban. I didn't consider these reliable or consistent answers to it per-se, but they did appreciate coming in and having the capability to force the opponent to choose between switching it out or dying. All mons listed are base-110 Spe or higher that had moves which threatened to OHKO Blace.
Even though I was on the fence in regards to Blace's ban, I feel somewhat optimistic about the direction of the meta although I do currently believe theres just one or two more mons that deserve examination. But that view may change with time. Again, feel free to disagree or add on if you feel I missed anyone or would like to expand on my ideas!
Bulky offensive team built around mixed Kommo-o who destroys fat teams and can still reliably set rocks against balanced and offense: it lures in Corviknight and Tapu Fini, the two main defoggers in the tier, and swiftly eliminates them with Boomburst; it also forces out common Bouncers like opposing Kommo-o and Blissey. Lando-T and Mew serve as a special and physical sponge respectively, being able to soft check almost everything in the tier, and can safely bring in the breakers. Lando forces out a bunch of threats like Koko and Tran; Mew provides amazing utility in speed control, Trick, slow pivoting, Wisp. Ace is secondary speed control and checks opposing Gene. Guts Gene is an amazing cleaner and its typing brings some nice utility like checking Grassy Surge and Fairies in a pinch. Chomp is a secondary physical tank and secondary cleaner, checking the likes of opposing Ace, Talonflame, Terrak, Zarude and more, while Chomp can set up Scale Shots and SDs freely.
threatlist:
If you let No Guard set up a Shift Gear and Ace isn't above 80 you lose.
If you let drum up you lose. 2HKOes the entire team; for you have to either Volt with Mew twice or keep Ace healthy (Weather Ball in Sun still 2HKOes); and is slow so you can rk more easily.
Generally you can exert enough offensive pressure to prevent these threats from 6-0ing.
I did not intend to make this team alike to Atha's offense, tho I do credit the chomp set to them. Speaking of which I suggest their team to be considered for sample as well. Thanks for reading and have a nice day
This is a pretty generic balance around SFLO lele and barres. Barres was added as it can lure in stuff like pex and kommo which lele can take advantage of to nuke stuff. Kommo bliss corv is the defensive core handles most of the meta, with corv being FF for stuff like talon and deso venu. Moldy tran was added as a solid check to leech life gene, and is a another good progress maker and an emergency check to mg demon mew. Team is overall really solid and can outplay out of most bad MUs(tho terrak and particularly SD terrak are very annoying MUs)
Resubmitting a changed version of the FF ID Ferrothorn team that was unfairly removed from the other samples
The gameplan is the same as the other team: remove opposing Fighting-types and other Ferro stops, find an opening, and win. However, the team itself has made 3 important changes in order to stack up properly against the meta. The first change is changing the ability of Ferrothorn from Flash Fire to Primordial Sea, as this allows it to set up on Mold Breaker Heatran while still dealing with against a majority of Fire-types. The second change was to change Swampert to itemless to ensure it cannot be broken down by Knock Off users by Bisharp. The third and final change was replacing Azelf with Tapu Lele. With Kommo-Broken on the rise, Tapu Lele ensures there will always be offensive counterplay to Kommo-Broken and other Fighting-types that outspeed the broken Terrakion. It is Pixie Plate to bluff other sets like SFLO or Specs while boosting the most spammable move in Draining Kiss.
And time is up! Here is the new slate of sample teams that we feel are a good representation of the post-Blacephalon meta; feel free to take inspiration from them, or just steal them outright:
Work Up Pixilate Tapu Koko + Bulk Up Zarude Balance by The Number Man
Calm Mind Magic Bounce Tapu Koko + Curse Pixilate Entei Balance by The Number Man
Triage Tapu Bulu + Download Terrakion Bulky Offense by UT
Guts Genesect + Skill Link Garchomp Screens by ItsChew.
Facade Pixilate Koko + Facade Guts Mew Hyper Offense by Atha
Primordial Sea Zapdos + Aerilate Lando-T Bulky Offense by Osake
Sub Prankster Corviknight + Sub Iron Defense Kommo-o Balance by Think
Thank you to everyone who submitted teams! Also another shameless plug to fill out the AAA tiering survey if you haven't yet!
Just a quickly reminder that the AAA tiering survey is closing on Monday, so feel free to fill it if you haven't yet !
And if you have already submitted your thoughts but they have changed ? No worries ! You can still change your answers and re-fill the survey to be the most accurate possible with your current thoughts !
Thank you to all those who have already responded to the survey, and I wish you a good day!
may as well just put this in since i've lost the aaa open. good luck to everyone still in, and i may as well post my team now - electric raccoons :]
in this tourney i realized just how insane electric terrain teams could be. with the amount of koko and zapdos roaming the meta, along with being hardcountered by av lando, you'd think these teams would have a problem. while you're correct about av lando being essentially an auto loss, koko and zapdos are actually great targets for this style. xurkitree's modest magnet boosted rising voltage can OHKO koko in electric terrain while outspeeding it thanks to surge surfer, and dracozolt's strong mixed combination of draco meteor and bolt beak make zapdos a breeze. there's also unburden lele(ty chew) that can function even outside electric terrain thanks to just being a great pokemon, and also being a good abuser of it thanks to unburden. i chose blissey and corviknight for the setters specifically for what they do against the meta; blissey acts as a solid answer to zapdos, special genesect, azelf, and chandelure, while corviknight can counter lando and zarude while also being solid for kommo-o. i picked specially defensive on corv so i could be more reliable against azelf. pert is just great to have, a good glue for the team and can help the pixikoko, terrakion, and kommo-o mu. used this against stitchuu, duckerydoodle, and fardin, though it only works against stitchuu. i've had a lot of success with this team on ladder, however, as mu based teams tend to fair much better there.
is this team a good, reliable team style? well its good, but not reliable. is it a ton of fun to use? yes, i would highly recommend it. i've been trying versions where i use bro over corv or bliss, and zappy over zolt. there are quite a few variations you can use for this team, and i just love it. once again, good luck to everyone still in the open!
Thanks to everyone that voted in the January survey, our very first tiering survey! We were able to gather over 60 responses :]
This one was open for an extremely long time of 1 month due to the timing with the Blacephalon ban, but future surveys will be active for 2 weeks to keep up with metagame changes. We'll also try to keep the surveys to happening once every 3 months unless massive meta changes/shifts happen.
I'll be sharing the results followed by how the council will act (or not act) on them moving forward.
On a scale of 1-10, how much do you enjoy the current metagame? (How much do you enjoy playing it?)
On a scale of 1-10, how good do you find the current metagame? (Do you find it competitive?)
On average, the metagame is rated 7.52/10 on being enjoyable and 7.39 on competitiveness. For the most part, people find the metagame both enjoyable and competitive, and it's worth noting that 96.72% of respondents find the metagame at least moderately (5 or higher) competitive regardless of how much they enjoy playing it.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Genesect in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 50.8% of respondents do not believe action should be taken on Genesect. Comparatively, 32.8% of respondents support action being taken on Genesect.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Kommo-o in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 55.8% of respondents do not believe action should be taken on Kommo-o. Comparatively, 34.4% support action being taken on Kommo-o.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Tapu Lele in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 45.9% of respondents do not believe action should be taken on Tapu Lele. Comparatively, 36.1% support action being taken on Tapu Lele.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Terrakion in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 54.1% of respondents do not believe action should be taken on Terrakion. Comparatively, 32.8% support action being taken on Terrakion.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Triage in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 41% of respondents believe action should be taken on Triage. Comparatively, 39.4% do not believe action should be taken on Triage.
What's most notable about these results is the fact that in every case, there isn't a super majority of people voting for or against action and further that there is a trend towards either being against tiering action on these elements or not feeling strongly enough to vote either way. This leads the council to believe that the metagame is in a fairly stable state, and while there are notable threats there are enough good arguments both for and against banning certain things that a voting slate on whether to hold a suspect test is warranted (posted at the end of this).
(Optional) Is there anything (Pokemon, Ability, Move, etc.) that you would like to see unbanned or suspect tested back INTO the tier?
Some of the [actually serious] responses to this question:
- Zeraora received repeated mentions for an unban, but considering the lack of solutions to its Tough Claws and Magic Guard sets in the past as well as its absolutely dominant base speed, it's not very likely that Zeraora would be a net positive element if re-introduced to the metagame
- Noivern also received repeated mentions, but the sheer breaking power of Aerilate Boomburst combined with its incredibly demanding teambuilder requirement (pretty much everything that isn't blissey/chansey or a regenvest resist gets OHKOed or 2HKOed for free, and it uses switcheroo/Toxic on everyone else anyway) makes that also a hard no
- Poison Heal is deemed effectively uncompetitive due to the nature of protect scouting and the way it makes choiced breakers extremely difficult to pilot, but also generally creates odds that are typically unfavorable for the non-pheal protect user regardless of what they click|
- Buzzwole: Tinted Lens, Triage, Tough Claws, even Magic Bounce...way too terrifying to even consider freeing in the meta's current state
- Gengar is a recurring topic of interest for people and as such the council decided to include it in the big voting slate just to reach a conclusion on whether to unban it or keep it banned
- Someone actually presented the topic of Power Construct, which is particularly interesting since its main user in Zygarde-Base is banned, meaning the only user left is Zygarde-10%. Considering that Zygarde-10% is significantly less bulky than its base form, the council discussed + tested the idea and then voted on whether it should be unbanned to keep consistent with the concept of "almost any ability".
- Tinted Lens ban: This has gotten discussion a lot already, but banning an ability that isn't individually broken enough to be a significant problem just to unban some Pokemon that might be balanced with it gone (Buzzwole, Keldeo are prime examples) is not a tiering approach that we are willing to take, esp. in a meta where the primary focus is preserving as many abilities as possible.
Key:
DNB = Do Not Ban
DNS = Do Not Suspect
Genesect
Kommo-o
Terrakion
Tapu Lele
Triage
Gengar (to suspect back in)
Power Construct
Isaiah
DNS
DNS
DNS
DNS
DNS
DNS
UNBAN
UT
DNS
DNS
ABSTAIN
DNS
DNS
DNS
UNBAN
Osake
DNS
DNS
SUSPECT
ABSTAIN
DNS
DNS
UNBAN
The Number Man
ABSTAIN
SUSPECT
SUSPECT
DNS
DNS
DNS
BAN
3-1 DNS
3-1 DNS
2-1-1 SUSPECT
3-1 DNS
4-0 DNS
4-0 DNS
3-1 UNBAN
Again, the reason that these are all suspect test votes is that there wasn't enough supporting argumentation or evidence to warrant an outright quickban of any of the things listed.
Based on this voting:
Genesect, Kommo-o, Tapu Lele, and Triage will remain unaffected.
Gengar will remain BANNED.
Power construct is now UNBANNED.
Terrakion WILL be getting a suspect test. Stay tuned for that thread in the near future ;)
Once again, thank you to everyone who participated! If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to myself or a council member through Discord. See you around :]
Thanks to everyone that voted in the January survey, our very first tiering survey! We were able to gather over 60 responses :]
This one was open for an extremely long time of 1 month due to the timing with the Blacephalon ban, but future surveys will be active for 2 weeks to keep up with metagame changes. We'll also try to keep the surveys to happening once every 3 months unless massive meta changes/shifts happen.
I'll be sharing the results followed by how the council will act (or not act) on them moving forward.
On a scale of 1-10, how much do you enjoy the current metagame? (How much do you enjoy playing it?)
On average, the metagame is rated 7.52/10 on being enjoyable and 7.39 on competitiveness. For the most part, people find the metagame both enjoyable and competitive, and it's worth noting that 96.72% of respondents find the metagame at least moderately (5 or higher) competitive regardless of how much they enjoy playing it.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Genesect in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 50.8% of respondents do not believe action should be taken on Genesect. Comparatively, 32.8% of respondents support action being taken on Genesect.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Kommo-o in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 55.8% of respondents do not believe action should be taken on Kommo-o. Comparatively, 34.4% support action being taken on Kommo-o.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Tapu Lele in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 45.9% of respondents do not believe action should be taken on Tapu Lele. Comparatively, 36.1% support action being taken on Tapu Lele.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Terrakion in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 54.1% of respondents do not believe action should be taken on Terrakion. Comparatively, 32.8% support action being taken on Terrakion.
Which statement most accurately describes how you feel about Triage in AAA?
Out of the 61 responses, 41% of respondents believe action should be taken on Triage. Comparatively, 39.4% do not believe action should be taken on Triage.
What's most notable about these results is the fact that in every case, there isn't a super majority of people voting for or against action and further that there is a trend towards either being against tiering action on these elements or not feeling strongly enough to vote either way. This leads the council to believe that the metagame is in a fairly stable state, and while there are notable threats there are enough good arguments both for and against banning certain things that a voting slate on whether to hold a suspect test is warranted (posted at the end of this).
(Optional) Is there anything (Pokemon, Ability, Move, etc.) that you would like to see unbanned or suspect tested back INTO the tier?
Some of the [actually serious] responses to this question:
- Zeraora received repeated mentions for an unban, but considering the lack of solutions to its Tough Claws and Magic Guard sets in the past as well as its absolutely dominant base speed, it's not very likely that Zeraora would be a net positive element if re-introduced to the metagame
- Noivern also received repeated mentions, but the sheer breaking power of Aerilate Boomburst combined with its incredibly demanding teambuilder requirement (pretty much everything that isn't blissey/chansey or a regenvest resist gets OHKOed or 2HKOed for free, and it uses switcheroo/Toxic on everyone else anyway) makes that also a hard no
- Poison Heal is deemed effectively uncompetitive due to the nature of protect scouting and the way it makes choiced breakers extremely difficult to pilot, but also generally creates odds that are typically unfavorable for the non-pheal protect user regardless of what they click|
- Buzzwole: Tinted Lens, Triage, Tough Claws, even Magic Bounce...way too terrifying to even consider freeing in the meta's current state
- Gengar is a recurring topic of interest for people and as such the council decided to include it in the big voting slate just to reach a conclusion on whether to unban it or keep it banned
- Someone actually presented the topic of Power Construct, which is particularly interesting since its main user in Zygarde-Base is banned, meaning the only user left is Zygarde-10%. Considering that Zygarde-10% is significantly less bulky than its base form, the council discussed + tested the idea and then voted on whether it should be unbanned to keep consistent with the concept of "almost any ability".
- Tinted Lens ban: This has gotten discussion a lot already, but banning an ability that isn't individually broken enough to be a significant problem just to unban some Pokemon that might be balanced with it gone (Buzzwole, Keldeo are prime examples) is not a tiering approach that we are willing to take, esp. in a meta where the primary focus is preserving as many abilities as possible.
Key:
DNB = Do Not Ban
DNS = Do Not Suspect
Genesect
Kommo-o
Terrakion
Tapu Lele
Triage
Gengar (to suspect back in)
Power Construct
Isaiah
DNS
DNS
DNS
DNS
DNS
DNS
UNBAN
UT
DNS
DNS
ABSTAIN
DNS
DNS
DNS
UNBAN
Osake
DNS
DNS
SUSPECT
ABSTAIN
DNS
DNS
UNBAN
The Number Man
ABSTAIN
SUSPECT
SUSPECT
DNS
DNS
DNS
BAN
3-1 DNS
3-1 DNS
2-1-1 SUSPECT
3-1 DNS
4-0 DNS
4-0 DNS
3-1 UNBAN
Again, the reason that these are all suspect test votes is that there wasn't enough supporting argumentation or evidence to warrant an outright quickban of any of the things listed.
Based on this voting:
Genesect, Kommo-o, Tapu Lele, and Triage will remain unaffected.
Gengar will remain BANNED.
Power construct is now UNBANNED.
Terrakion WILL be getting a suspect test. Stay tuned for that thread in the near future ;)
Once again, thank you to everyone who participated! If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to myself or a council member through Discord. See you around :]
i would like to say that, in advance, i am probably against a terrakion suspect. of course, terrakion is getting suspected no matter what i say, but i dont think it will end up being a broken menace in the meta
in favor of the terrak ban
if you're in favor of a terrakion ban, you can say that it has insane offensive pressure and may outright win against most teams without a faster threat. additionally, it has two very dangerous sets of choice band adaptability and laser focus sniper, with completely different counterplay for each set. it also has great speed, bulk that may allow it to take one big neutral hit in a pinch, and a rocks resist, giving it extra longevity in the face of defensively focused teams
in favor of no terrak ban
while these all are true, i think there are quite a few qualities which hold back terrakion from being a suspect worthy threat. for one, defensively oriented teams can handle terrak well with the combination of fini and a bulky physdef ground, mainly swampert or zyg-c. actually, allowing zyg-c would make terrak far easier to handle for defensive teams, as it can simply rest off all the damage it takes from eating a cb stone edge. the laser focus sets can still be handled well by the combination of these two, and balance/bulky offense teams wont have much trouble handling terrakion. it may get a kill, but its easy to revenge with faster offensive threats or priority such as grassy glide zarude, triage tapu lele/bulu, azelf, and most variants of tapu koko. there's also the option of protect on a lot of pokemon, making it easy to scout the intentions of the cb set, although this does make you worse against laser focus.
in short, while terrak is an excellent pokemon that i would consider very good at the moment, its not unbeatable. answers to it exist for all teams in the current meta, and they're common answers that are some of the best pokemon in the meta. of course, the suspect is still going whether or not i make this post, but i feel like talking about how its balanced. imo, terrakion is not broken and should not be banned. i may change my mind on this later, but i wont just yet on an unrelated note, zyg-c seems really fun to mess around with, cant wait to build with it
i would like to say that, in advance, i am probably against a terrakion suspect. of course, terrakion is getting suspected no matter what i say, but i dont think it will end up being a broken menace in the meta
in favor of the terrak ban
if you're in favor of a terrakion ban, you can say that it has insane offensive pressure and may outright win against most teams without a faster threat. additionally, it has two very dangerous sets of choice band adaptability and laser focus sniper, with completely different counterplay for each set. it also has great speed, bulk that may allow it to take one big neutral hit in a pinch, and a rocks resist, giving it extra longevity in the face of defensively focused teams
in favor of no terrak ban
while these all are true, i think there are quite a few qualities which hold back terrakion from being a suspect worthy threat. for one, defensively oriented teams can handle terrak well with the combination of fini and a bulky physdef ground, mainly swampert or zyg-c. actually, allowing zyg-c would make terrak far easier to handle for defensive teams, as it can simply rest off all the damage it takes from eating a cb stone edge. the laser focus sets can still be handled well by the combination of these two, and balance/bulky offense teams wont have much trouble handling terrakion. it may get a kill, but its easy to revenge with faster offensive threats or priority such as grassy glide zarude, triage tapu lele/bulu, azelf, and most variants of tapu koko. there's also the option of protect on a lot of pokemon, making it easy to scout the intentions of the cb set, although this does make you worse against laser focus.
in short, while terrak is an excellent pokemon that i would consider very good at the moment, its not unbeatable. answers to it exist for all teams in the current meta, and they're common answers that are some of the best pokemon in the meta. of course, the suspect is still going whether or not i make this post, but i feel like talking about how its balanced. imo, terrakion is not broken and should not be banned. i may change my mind on this later, but i wont just yet on an unrelated note, zyg-c seems really fun to mess around with, cant wait to build with it
I'm posting to echo this - Out of everything brought up in the survey, Terrakion is probably the least suspect worthy thing I find. It's an incredibly good breaker, but the metagame at the moment isn't incredibly kind to it. While Laser Focus sets are capable of breaking through Dauntless Shield Mew, getting a Laser Focus up in theory is a lot easier than in practice. Terrakion doesn't exactly have a wealth of opportunities to set up safely. It's true that it forces out a lot, but once your opponent has figured out your set, it's a lot less good since the main thing Terrakion relies on with Sniper Focus is surprise.
The other thing is that Terrakion largely relies on hitting Megahorn for this set in particular and Stone Edge across all of its sets. Typically, I don't enjoy entertaining hax as a reason to keep something unbanned, but this isn't Archeops where Head Smash was just so insanely strong and it had what it needed to threaten a lot of other Head Smash checks + U-Turn. Terrakion has a lot of risk for what I feel is a lot less reward. I don't really think it's an incredibly safe Pokemon, and when it does hit, it doesn't really feel like it's all that broken.
It's not the fastest thing, although it does have a nice speed tier, but losing to Scarfers, Koko Azelf Barra etc, and Triage being as good as it is atm, along with a plethora of Dauntless Shield users existing, I REALLY don't support a Terrakion suspect before everything else and I certainly won't be voting to ban it (or at all teehee)
I support no tiering action on Genesect, don't unban Gengar oh my god LOL, don't suspect Zeraora back in, Power Construct could be cool.
I'm undecided on if Lele should be suspected or not myself, but I think it sits in an incredible spot in the meta. I think I'd probably lean suspect? But ultimately it's just a really really good mon, I think the problem is with Triage if nothing else.
I think Kommo-O is probably far more suspect worthy than Terrakion. Unlike Terrakion, Kommo-O has a lot of versatility (regen ds galv unburden) and all of these sets play very differently. I think that as a result, this thing runs away with a lot more games than it should. I also think that it's not exactly broken in any of its sets alone, but playing against it isn't a very competitive experience until it clicks a move (or switches in, in dshield's case).
I think my tldr is that I definitely won't be voting ban on Terrakion and don't think it should be suspected. Meta is in a pretty good spot right now, I honestly wouldn't mess with it.
"Council member" TNM has come out of hiding in order to offer some perspective on the way he voted. This was inspired by a conversation with Siamato.
I'll cover the easy ones first. Gengar is likely self explanatory, we just banned blace and gengar has a very similar effect on the meta as his Fire type cousin. Would make no sense to free it. Triage is a powerful ability, but serves as a balancing force in the current meta. Additionally it's been really long since i've seen a triage sweep.
Lele was a bit harder, but with blace gone av rachi is finally viable and shuts it down completely. Scarfed steel types do decently well against it too. The sflo set is checked by Blissey and mons like glowking, volc, nihilego. Counterplay is scarce, but exists and unlike most banned mons, Lele has no way of punishing actual counterplay.
Genesect I abstained on because I keep flip-flopping on it. In hindsight, I wish I had voted to suspect it. It's a strong balancing force with its scarf set, but the sheer set diversity of its offensive sets makes playing around it difficult at times. If you aren't running heatran, there is probably a genesect set that will catch you off guard. Speaking of guard, fuck No Guard Genesect. When your check is an offensive Fire type, NG has a 25% to just win on the spot via full para.
I voted to sus (amogus) kommo because it shares the trait of massive set diversity with genesect. What distinguishes them however (in my view), is that the strongest wincon set that Kommo can run (Unburden) warps building to a greater extent than Genesect's wincon sets do - which are generally checked by Heatran or [offensive fire type] + steel bird. I don't think I would have voted ban on this guy if it came to a quickban vote, my intetion was to let the playerbase decide.
Unlike kommo, this guy does one thing, but it does it ridiculously well. There's different sets yes, but they all click buttons and make walls drop. What pushed me to votesus on this guy is the fact that I've been observing the meta move away from Dauntless/Intimidate users (let's face it - the only terrak checks are DS mew, DS hippo, Nidoqueen. Skarm/Corv dont count cause they take over half from maxroll cc, doublade doesn't cause nobody uses it). In the place of DS/Intim ive been seeing players run pdef scarf regen sets (Mew, Lando, Gapdos) and wandering spirit. WS doesn't even count as a Terrak check unless you're hippo, whereas scarf regen works in the short term, but gets worn down very quickly if it comes in on stone edge. Assuming the meta stays like this, I could see Terrak being too strong. But like with Kommo, I wouldnt have votebanned if it were a quickban vote.
Nobody listens to me smh. It's my opinion that Zygod is 100% too strong for aaa, and i expect to be vindicated once we figure out how to proc construct reliably. Setup chomp can be a pain to deal with for some teams - now imagine dealing with a chomp that is twice as bulky and doesnt struggle with damaging steel birds at all. The question then becomes how easy is it to reliably proc construct in every game - that will determine whether construct Zydog is never seen, is just an occasional MU fish or becomes a metagame staple. I think procing construct should be relatively simple with subspam and strategically eating a weak attack or two. This is why I voted to keep it banned.
best-council-member-after-the-3-others Osake is here to share his wonderful thoughs on the metagame ! This was inspired by a non-conversation with Siamato because he takes 1 day to answer to any of my message so we can't discuss, blame this short little small dude !!
I personally enjoy a lot the metagame and I think it's probably the best one I've ever played. I feel free in my builds, even if I haven't build a lot past weeks, and I can try new ideas without feeling too restricted by proeminent threats. I also find it very competitive, and I don't think anything is too broken as proved by the survey since nothing has been quickbanned.
What I'm gonna say now only reflects what I think, and obviously not the thoughts of the whole council. This is just to explain the way I voted, and my thoughts on the meta rn.
beginning with the first of the survey, I know that some people believe it's the most broken thing in AAA due to its versatility. I was one year ago really in favor of Genesect's ban, but as we say, only fools don't change their minds. Genesect is definitely annoying, but I think it's the less restricting of the 4. People will argue that it's why it's broken, you can't counter it with only one Pokemon, and in a way yes but on the other hand you are kinda free to chose your counterplay to Genesect, and you have a lot of freedom to do that. Genesect will always suffer of the 4MSS, and you have a lot of different ways to deal with it. The most annoying set is probably No Guard as it can pass through some of its counterplay thanks to yellow magic, but all the times I've seen a NG Genesect it hasn't perform really better than another Pokemon or another set would have truly done and, at the end of the day, I think every Genesect set ended to underperform what it's supposed to do in a game, letting it repose in the surprise effect of the set.
Out of the 4, Kommo-o is definitely the one I find the less annoying. Defensive Kommo-o is amazing and not having it would probably lead to Barraskewda and Zarude being extremely strong, Boomburst lure is a) predictable (not all the time but you can feel it) b) dies too fast for a rock setter c) works once so I don't think it's a problem at all, and BellyBurden feels like a burden (wink wink) for your team until you set it up, and then you still lose to a lot of things, you are very reliant on your coverage, and well you need to setup too. Not to mention Kiss and Lele being pretty strong, Unaware being good again, etc, BellyBurden Kommo-o is indeed strong but I don't find it broken at any point, soz
well I chosed to abstain on this one because I never had problems with Tapu Lele, but I think it comes more from my playstyle and the fact that I use a lot AV Jirachi, so Lele can legit does nothing. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of games, as a spectator or a Lele player, where Lele just clicks buttons and destroy the defensive core of the opponent, or cleans it. SF Lele is horrible to switch-in (Blissey is a shaky SI and if you're not Regen you'll just lose anyway) but is slow, whereas Triage has a harder time to kill the first thing but if you can setup a CM orthe opposite team is weakened well you can just win, as well as being amazing to RK things such as the aformentionned Kommo-o. Maybe I should have vote to Suspect it, because it's really really strong, and maybe a bit restraining. My opinion isn't fixed yet ; but people should consider running Psyshic on SFLO, it ruins a lot of the counterplay you can find.
In the same way I'm maybe biased with Tapu Lele because my teams aren't weak to it, I may be biaised about Terrakion as my teams are often weak to it. I tried to forgot how I played, and a discussion I had with Siamato this morning when he finally decided to answer led me to think that Terrakion is still suspect worthy, although maybe not ban worthy - anyway, this is not between my hands now. I explained a bit in my suspect post, but the fact that CB Adapt/Download can 2HKO's almost every thing, that you can also run Laser Focus to abuse of that, Toxic supposely hard counters in Mew and Hippo (Hippo sucks otherwise, and Mew can be wear down to the range of +2 Megahorn easily), and SD sets to abuse of switching counterplays, means that your gameplan against it is switch switch switch, pray to not get a crit or get the right predictions, and not let Terrakion in often. To my eyes, this is not really a viable gameplan, esp when you can be owned by SD. I also think that people haven't explore Terrakion builds a lot - only putting a fat CB to wallbreak - when different builds based on it, with either pivots or Wish support can really make it dangerous, and prove that it's above the line of brokeness. That's why I voted to suspect Terrak. I'm not sure if it'll be ban worthy - the community rn looks to tend to a no-ban whereas I'm probably pro-ban bc this mon is dumb. We all have two weeks to think about it, let's use it properly !
About Triage, I feel like it's a balanced Ability rn, thath helps to deal with strong breakers (Terrakion or Kommo-o for example) and I don't think it's broken - a beginner might be surprised by a Triage sweeper, but idt it can really surprise you after if your team is well built. I'm usually weak to Triage as I rely on one or two mons to counter it, but I still feel like it's a me-problem and even with that, I don't find Triage broken if I play well.
Gengar is Tapu Lele and Blacephalon in better, it makes no sens to have it in the tier again imo esp when it's already hard enough to deal with all the threats.
I think people are over estimating Power Construct effect. Everyone is playing it rn, because it's new, and people probably don't know already how to deal with it because it's a weird Ability (like, we had nothing like that in the tier before), but I think once the "wow it's new" effect will be over, people will stop playing it much and be aware that it exists. It'll still have uses, but it'll not be broken I think, because you need to make a lot of sacrifices to actually play it. (play Coil + Sub if you are using it btw only viable set)
That was my thought about the survey. I'm not a fan of doing "metagame thoughts" in general because it's something that is very subjective and way more general that an opinion on a few mons.
I'll do it quickly : Primal Weather is very good, especially on relatively fast breakers such as Cinderace or Inteleon ; Triage users are raising up - esp everything not called Lele. Togekiss and Tapu Bulu in particular are very threatening rn. ; Unaware is definitively a viable pick even outside of stall, it fixes a lot of weaknesses in only one mon. Lastly, I think Choice users are very good, because it is often the limit between a 2HKO and a 3HKO, which is huge in a meta where you often switch to your Regen walls.
I'll end that thoughts dump with a team. I've build it like two weeks ago and I honestly love it, it's one of my best teams since a while. I used it for the suspect and to ladder, feel free to steal it or improve it ! I'll make it step by step to explain how I built it.
So my first idea was : I want to build on Inteleon. Why ? Because I think Weather Ball breakers are amazing because they pass through other Weather controls, and Inteleon needs a few chip to actually 2HKO Blissey, and unlike Primarina or Volcanion, it's fast so you don't need a lot of Speed control with Inteleon.
Then, the first thing that came to my mind is : what annoys Inteleon ? Tapu Fini, Blissey, Regenvest, were my answers, as there is not viable Water Absorb users rn and Desolate Land users are cooked by Weather Ball. Moreover, I needed some speed control, to outspeed Azelf, Tapu Koko, etc. So my idea was to run a special Scarf with Trick that can threaten fast threats, and Trick potential switch-ins. So I went with a Scarf Latios, which is imo an underestimated breaker. People expects it to be Specs or Soul Dew or Life Orb, so it can surprise ; it forces Blissey and Jirachi in so you can Trick them, and you can weaken Fini with a strong Pychic-Stab. Latios is kinda weak without boost, so I thought Adaptability will be the best Ability. UT asked me why I did not put Tinted Lens, and even if it's still a viable option, I've played enough games to feel that Adapt-boost is often required to KO things. It also boosts Psyshock on Blissey and RegenVest, which is always useful.
I gotta stay high (Latios) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire
Trick/DM/Shock are here for obvious reasons. I wasn't sure about the last slot, but I think Mystical Fire is the best move to threaten Ferrothorn and Genesect - Surprising Scarf Genesect with MFire is very pleasant (unless they are Scarf Flash Fire haha it made me cry). Now that I have this strong duo of special threats that can deal with almost any answers, I needed backup. There was a Pokemon I wanted to test for a while because Atha told me it was good, and its SD Spdef Regen Garchomp. Usually with Rocks in last, but I planned to put them on something else so I went with Substitute.
All the time (Garchomp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 152 SpD / 104 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
The spread was made to outspeed Modest Lele, but then I realised I could just put enough to outspeed Xurkitree as well. The rest is in bulk to Sub easily and take hits from various threats, mainly Volcarona. And this set is honestly insanely good. It can struggle to break Corviknight, but you can sub on U-Turn and annoy them. It also lives Flip Turn from Swampert, etc, and you can beat a ridiculous amount of things with that. And, with all that offensive power, it is also so good defensively : it's the Volcarona check, it soft checks so many things, it lives Liquidation from Barraskewda, etc, this thing has SO much bulk it's insane, I love it.
When I was there, I realised with my huge brain that I was kinda weak to Fairies. Yeah, I know, I'm smart. In general, SpDef Garchomp could act as a soft check for special threats, but I could not use it as a reliable switch in to Zapdos, Tapu Lele, Latios, Primarina, etc. As a Jirachi lover, I added a Jirachi. Simply.
To keep you (Jirachi) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Energy Ball
- Fire Punch
Energy Ball is probably droppable, I use it to threaten Swampert but I don't click it often. Thanks UT for Iron Head, otherwise you don't hit Lele which is kinda sad. Fire Punch is for Genesect, it's needed. You can run Future Sight or Thunder over Energy Ball if needed.
I don't have much to say on this. It's a Jirachi. It does what Jirachi does. and pivot out to regain health. Easy.
Now I realised two things : a) how do I deal with Kommo-o if it comes on Jirachi b) where is my Ground resist c) how do I deal with setup sweepers in general (Chomp mainly, but even Unburden stuff or w/e) d) I need Rocks and Defog e) Zarude ???
The answer is...
yes yes it's a Drampa look closer
Off my mind (Mandibuzz) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Foul Play
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog
I don't remember if 30 Speed outspeeds something significant to not just run 0 Speed. But it allows you to slow turn on non-0 Speed Drampa Mandibuzz. Well, as Jirachi, it does what Mandibuzz does. Foul Play to prevent SD sweepers to sweep (Garchomp, Kommo-o), Defog because I needed it. Toxic is an option over U-Turn to deal with things like Togekiss better but I like to pivot a lot to bring Inteleon as much as I can.
I struggled a bit to find my last teammate. I think my first attempt was Water Absorb Landorus - because Barraskewda kinda destroys me but then I played against a bad player (called UT) and he brought Terrakion and I was like. yes. fun game. So I tried to find something to deal with Barraskewda, Terrakion, and maybe that can setup rocks.
Ooh-ooh ooh-ooh (Palossand) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Scorching Sands
- Shadow Ball
The Goat. It is also very annoying for Corviknight as they can't Roost or pivot freely on it. Completely walls Terrakion and Barraskewda, setup Rocks, and can burn Bouncers. Nah, it's a good Pokemon.
Thanks to read all of this ! From the games I've played I've found too weaknesses to this team : the first one is Tapu Fini, it's always a bit annoying to switch on it as it can cripple you with Knock / Toxic / Scald, but depending of the match up you can use one of your Pokemon as an absorber (usually Jirachi or Palossand). The other one is more annoying, it's Togekiss, because even if Jirachi totally counters Tapu Lele, it's more annoying against Togekiss' Fire Blast. You can play around with Iron Head + LO Recoil + Stealth Rock but boots variants and well played Togekiss are really annoying. You can run Toxic on Mandibuzz to kinda fix that, but it's not ideal.
Here is the whole team if you want it : https://pokepast.es/82e7d31420b22d7f and you'll notice that I didn't rick roll anyone during this post, you should be prouf of me.
Last thing, listen to this song :
Have a good day everyone ! Do not hesitate to make the suspect, and I wish you all the best for your day and your life !
Okay since every other council person has posted about the vote, I guess I should too.
First off, I am actually very happy with the state of the metagame right now, which is why my vote slate was largely to maintain the status quo. I don't feel anything is broken, I think there a wide variety of viable mons/strategies/playstyles (Stall is still kinda bad, but not as dire as before), and I think the meta is in a very good place right now.
I am mostly going to echo Osake on Genesect. While it is a very good an at times annoyingly unpredictable mon, I do not think that makes it broken. All of the sets have reasonable checks and counters, and for the most part they can be fairly safely scouted by mid-grounds until you've figured out what you're dealing with. Its best set right now is definitely the No Guard Shift Gear set, which can be frustrating if you get unlucky, but I do not find it consistently haxxy enough to justify any claims of broken. I find Genesect to be a healthy, diverse inclusion to the metagame. Unpredictability is a part of mons, especially AAA thanks to hidden abilities, but I do not find Genesect to be broken.
Also echoing Osake here. DrumBurden is an amazing win con, but it has hard counterplay (Unaware, Triage, Wandering Spirit) that it cannot meaningfully bypass, and soft counterplay (threatening with status and denying set up) that I think keeps it balanced. DrumBurden also has the disadvantage of playing 5-6 until its counters are removed, which I do think is substantial. Galvanize I find to be relatively predictable, which makes playing around it easier, and the defensive sets are very good and splashable, but I do not think anyone would consider them to be broken. This was a fairly easy "no suspect" vote for me.
Lele is easily the mon my opinion shifted on the most during the survey period. Right at the end of the Blacephalon meta, I did think it was borderline broken, or at least suspectable. However, the metagame has adapted to it (healthily, imo) now that Blace isn't warping team building. Sheer Force Life Orb, while revolutionary when it was first developed, struggles like all our breakers with being slow, having no defensive utility, and being prediction reliant. Triage Lele is maybe my favorite win condition currently, but still struggles with having enough power against bulkier teams. Great mon, fantastic win condition, but the power level is still in line with the rest of the tier.
This was the one I struggled with voting on the most, and flip flopped how I wanted to vote several times before choosing to abstain. I do believe it is not broken; it's a great breaker that has no defensive utility and is prediction reliant. It does have hard counters, and significantly more soft checks, to the point I think you can build a wide range of defensive cores that handle it well. I also chose to abstain because I recognize I may be biased here; I am more closely associated with Terrakion than Talonflame at this point (including championing that Download set, I swear it works), and with Terrakion being a topic of tiering action for a long time, and a split council, agree with the decision to suspect it (although I will be voting no ban).
Triage This was the easiest vote on the slate for me. I have a very high bar for suspecting/banning abilities, and need to see a pretty substantial list of mons that are broken with it before considering taking action. Lele is the only mon that is even remotely close, and none of our current banned mons I think would be freed with it banned. No action on Triage.
I used to be in the re-suspect Gengar camp right after we adopted Sleep Moves Clause, since No Guard Hypnosis was such a big part of why it was banned. I no longer believe it is worth suspecting. Its Sheer Force and Adaptability sets, in addition to still running a credible No Guard set, would be far too much for this metagame. Blissey doesn't even beat it thanks to Sub. I pretty firmly believe that Gengar would not be a healthy element to the metagame and see no point in suspecting it.
While Zygarde-Complete is a stat monster, and has a lot of flexibility in movepool due to really only need Thousand Arrows offensively, I am optimistic that it can be a healthy addition to the metagame. Getting Zydog safely to under 50% can be challenging, and once it has evolved you're still relying on a mon that is chipped, has no meaningful recovery, and effectively no ability. I think the power level of AAA can handle that; if anything is going to make me regret this vote though, it will be Glare + Substitute generating too many free turns and being too consistent.
Those are my vote reasonings, hope they were clear enough and make sense. Looking forward to seeing y'all on the ladder for the suspect test, and hope you're enjoying the meta as much as I am!
From what I’ve seen, Zygod is actually much harder than that to get up. First off, Barraskewda exists, so, uh, 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10% in Heavy Rain: 399-469 (127.8 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO, plus Zarude plus anything faster really
Second, if you get it to 100%, what are you gonna do with it? It doesn’t really get recovery outside of Rest, and it still struggles a bit with power, as most of its new BST goes into its HP, only having 100 base Attack.
If anyone has anything to add, go ahead, but I still think CB Adapt Zydog is better lol.
From what I’ve seen, Zygod is actually much harder than that to get up. First off, Barraskewda exists, so, uh, 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10% in Heavy Rain: 399-469 (127.8 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO, plus Zarude plus anything faster really
Second, if you get it to 100%, what are you gonna do with it? It doesn’t really get recovery outside of Rest, and it still struggles a bit with power, as most of its new BST goes into its HP, only having 100 base Attack.
If anyone has anything to add, go ahead, but I still think CB Adapt Zydog is better lol.
no one runs skewda after weavile blaceph ban. trust me its broken. its stats are too strong in combination with bulk up + lefties, and thousand arrows isnt balanced in any game mode lol
no one runs skewda after weavile blaceph ban. trust me its broken. its stats are too strong in combination with bulk up + lefties, and thousand arrows isnt balanced in any game mode lol
I don’t really want to elaborate any further, but I think that the council is right on this one. Zygod is very strong in theory, but Ice moves are it’s worst enemy as well, and as I stated above, something without recovery in this metagame is not amazing. I will say that if Zygarde could start in it’s complete forme it would be broken, but it can‘t. Not gonna say anymore, as it would be redundant, but just read the council’s opinions.
Edit: Right, we have Lele too that sends Zygarde running for the hills too
Hi, a quick post to share my thoughts about Zygod and only Zygod because i'm lazy to explain why kommo-o genesect & psysurge (and other stuffs) are broken/unhealthy rn
The Power Construct unban was a very big surprise to me, i really never expected that to be even in a council vote lol
Build a team with Zygod without Vaporeon or another Wisher is actually not easy, because do not have a way to heal it is really annoying to do its job greatly, that's really THE thing that makes zygod not that easy to put in every team.
However, on a team with a Wisher, Zygod is a beast and is absolutely horrible to beat especially with Vaporeon which is a bulky water very easy to build with. So Zygod is actually not a good option to finish a team imo, but a really good one to begin with.
Turn Zydog into Zygod is really so easy, just spam subs vs everything that is slower and that can't bypass sub and you have your Zygod (so on every defensive mons except like swampert that can pivot and break the zydog' sub at the same time), or even on offensive mons, it can take a hit even if it has low HP after, you can just switch on vapo and wish and pivot so easily on zygod
Zygod is so easy to heal, vaporeon can just take any hit and flip turn into zygod or wish into hard switch on zygod because zygod is very bulky and can easily take a hit from almost every mons, even mons like Tapu Koko that hit both super effectively need chip damage on Zygod and Vaporeon to really threaten them lol
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 322-382 (69.3 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 244-291 (42.5 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
(I have 156 SpD because i have 200+ Speed to outspeed don't remember what at +1 or 2 and i split remaining EVs into Def & SpD)
I also think that Zygod is restricting the already restrictive teambuilder because defensive pivots like Corvi can't break the sub with U-turn and are setup fodder to Zygod, so a Grass type is kinda mandatory to beat it, or Pokemons with Ice coverage, so Mew and Genesect (others like Mamo or swampert Ice punch are niche) or also Fairy mons like Fini, but these mons can still lose the 1v1 due to Glare, if there is something that makes Zygod incredibly annoying, that's Glare, Sub + Glare + DD with 216/121/95 bulk is so dumb, just do glare and spam subs until they are paralyse to do DD, and if you didn't luck this time, let's try later thanks to Vaporeon and their Wish.
So Zygod is unhealthy and restrictive (6 reliable mons in the builder that can beat it, 4 if you don't want to include Genesect & Zarude that are short terms checks and that really don't want to be para (Dhelmise, Tapu Bulu, Mew Ice Beam, Tapu Fini, Zarude, Genesect)) and i think it should be banned asap
If you want to try a team that works well with Zygod to have your own opinion on it, you can try this one that i build in literally 10 minutes around Zygod + Vapo
This mon is, severely overhyped in its effectiveness and perceived unhealthy-ness. I will put a disclaimer that i do not think that the mon is outright unviable or anything, so there will be a slight skew of exaggeration in my words as its how i type. But anyways,
This mon is garbage! A: Its impossible to fit a team with, or build a team around, and it offers so little in team cohesion that you are actually just playing 5-6 until its his one moment to try and do his thing. Best bet would be you somehow already triggered his big form, have him healthy, and then bring him in on a resisted hit like Terrak stone edge and still take like 25ish (which is huge chip for zygarde, will touch on later). When in small form (which can last 50-60 turns into a match), he truly offers no defensive support and will die or take like 95% from every single attack.
And, he needs a mountain of support to do well with. Singlehandedly, he is just not getting the job done or anywhere near that. You need to build your entire team around him, and that forces more awkward structures. But, you need to both status, and, knock off, and set up hazards on, the answers to Zyg. Which is hard to keep up. You also most very likely need at least a cleric, as Zyg turns entirely useless with any status condition, though if you play carefully you can avoid that. Along with that, you need to either lure, or heavily chip down the mons into his ranges. This is annoying because clerics exist, all of his checks have great built in longevity, and usually avoid the field/ dont need to come out next to your supportive mons. Like Unaware Mandibuzz can easily avoid your support ferrothorn throughout the match.
B: This mon, just loses to everything. There are so many individual mons, team structures, 2 mon cores that incidentally shutdown, and more that when you look for an actually good matchup for him, the window is narrow. He struggles vs Offense/HO, he Struggles vs Fat/Stall, and he struggles if balance techs anything. So really his best opportunity is vs passive balances. And, the likelihood of him just being completely shut down and you truly playing 5-6 are too high, with stuff like S-rank tapu fini going hard in and spamming moonblast almost single handedly invalidating Zyg, or Any bulky mon with ice coverage (Mbounce mew(reallly any mew), glasterier, etc, etc, big room for simple techs/not like ice coverage is bad to have). Mons with roar/whirlwind on a bulky mon also really shut him down. Swampert/Hippo/Skarm/etc. This is not to even bring up unaware. Unaware on really anything, will make progress nigh impossible without a specific set, and hard to setup conditions from support from your other teammates (status, etc.), and also bring in a risk of PP Stalling since he only gets 16 Tarrows. His damage output at +0, or +1 is really unimpressive, and will bounce off of any relatively bulk mon who can then force you out quickly. So it is often futile or impossible to setup a meaningful amount of boosts, or sub up vs these answers. Each and every time you attempt to pull off your Zygarde sequence, you are forfeiting some amount of health. HP you cannot get back easily. Meanwhile all your checks have recovery. Furthermore, since it is often futile to setup boosts, they can always take advantage of this and go to their offensive checks that doesn't necessarily 1v1 to do some damage. If you couldn't setup boosts because of roar hippo in the back, what if they went zapdos and got a good chunk off you.
C: He suffers from 4MSS. Now reading this, you may think thats a strange thing for a mon that only needs one attack with nigh-perfect coverage. But, your fourth move dictates a lot of what you can and cant do. Assuming the set is Tarrow/Setup move/Sub, what is your fourth. The mon has poor longevity, maybe you pick rest at the cost of having the chance to break/win. Many do not choose this option and would rather play carefully to conserve his health which is fair.
The most common option would be status. This makes sense because in theory it helps you break. What do unaware mons hate? Toxic. Etc. But to pick between toxic and glare is a tough choice. Glare offers more support to the rest of your team especially if you can snipe a random offensive pivot with glare, though they can play around this. The problem with glare, outside of strings of multiple para's back to back, it doesn't actually help you break any of your answers. They will still stop you in the same manner. And if you do attempt the 1v1, you can bank on a para and trade down most of your health vs like a fini, then realize you didnt get the para and youre screwed. Or, (vs fini in particular here,) they can switch out regen back up, you are at too low of a health to do anything with (20-40 range) and bring it back in later. Toxic however can actually break stuff like FIni with prior chip (as Fini is famously prone to). So i dont think either status's are a great option, but they are the most common one.
The last move which i think is quite underrated is dragon tail. If you setup the conditions right, a Zygarde behind a sub at +1/2, spamming dtail and squeezing in a tarrows and coil/dd can actually very realistically just sweep (assuming no Fini). Since Zyg will most likely scare out whatever he pulls out, and the unaware mandibuzz, or roar Hippowdon or whatever takes a good 15-20 chip each time, compounded with hazards and status, you can win! This is a very strong scenario, insanely hard to stop when it works, super duper fun. But getting there is extremely difficult. This is why i think many don't run dtail. Dtail doesn't help in setting up the stage for Zyg, but it does help actually completing the sweep, which sets with Toxic/Glare will struggle with. A status' d Mandibuzz is still walling you for eternity.
So your fourth move is important and dictates what you can and cannot do.
D: Even after you get past all these in the builder problems, there are some annoying problems when in game, including heavy amounts of outplaying your opponent can do, and he struggles in practice to even trigger Power Construct (safely/not sacrificing too much health, or without forfeiting lots of momentum), or stay healthy. Wish passing is also difficult since his HP stat dwarfs most of the wish passers, meaning he cannot get enough back. I think we can all agree he gets super overwhelmed by HO, at best trading 1/1 with one of the threats, though even triggering your big form vs HO is a task nigh impossible since your speed isn't great (your evs are most likely in bulk, and even then outran by most HO picks). Esp cuz every HO packs mons like ice move genesect or sweeper garchomp who can take a few tarrows leaving them up a mon.
For even triggering Power Construct, it is a struggle. Since his damage output prior to set up is really handle able, you can end up doing certain uturn cycles that break subs and bring in a faster mon to threaten ohko, forcing you out and leaving you at less health. This you cannot sub up on, and thus cannot trigger PC. Your own leftovers/opposing grassy terrain further betrays you, as you cant simply double sub or even triple sub to get there. Bringing dog form hard into any attacks is very risky, you just have to hope you bring it in on u-turn and eat like 40 to trigger it.
Like i touched on earlier, when attempting your chances you can get stopped, and you take a risk each time you do so. You lose HP for every sub, you Lose it for every moonblast you decide to tank in hopes of powering through (to then get regen'd out). Each time something happens and you don't sweep on the first try, you lose unrecoverable HP. Wish passing in general is very difficult to pull off and not reliable, esp with Zyg who doesn't gain much from wish. So you have to choose your few moments in a game, and really make the most of them and if you cant you lost Zyg. Once he dips into say the 30-40 range it gets really hard to get something going. This is further compounded by the fact he only starts the game at best at 75%. (actually in the 60s cuz of leftovers forcing a triple sub, etc). You can go the entire game waiting for your moment conserving your hp (and also playing 5-6 the entire time) and realize you lost because you never got those chances to and are forced to sack him in an attempt to recoup the game state.
Even if you have a strong MU vs the opponent with zygarde, there are still ways around. For Zyg to beat any offensive mon you usually have to take at least a good 30-40ish, more for special attackers. This means in the worst case they can sack 1 or 2 offensive mons into Zyg to neutralize him, as he cannot make back up that HP and is essentially now just a sack.
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Before you say he is broken or anything, try it out for yourself, and see how rare it is to pull off that beautiful Tarrows sweep behind a substitute. And if you find yourself losing to it, re-evaluate your team/and or your play in the game. If a teams core is like Intim Corv + non roar Pert + like zapdos, zarude, filler as the offensive mons, Yeah that is getting super smashed but it also wasn't a great team to begin with. To surmise, i think he is too exploitable in game (it is rare for even a team that looks like it gets 6-0d to actually lose like that), and extremely exploitable in the builder. He needs too much support and is hard to build with/for. Regardless, i have been trying to build with him, and have tried multiple different teams and styles. Ik this team itself isn't great (17-0d by cinderace among other things), but its reasonably competent probably idk I'm not good at Mons. I don't think you can just splash him into any balance or offense, you need to really build for him or else he risks just being alone vs his multitude of checks and youre playing 5-6. I probably missed some of the words i wanted to say so please correct me on anything you feel is wrong/reply.
When Zygod was freed I firmly believed it would be challenging to use and setup, but after fighting Panda in finals I have completely changed my mind. Not only it is easy to setup multiple DDs and/or subs, it is able to consistently make progress against checks, and is restrictive in the builder (unhealthy or not, we'll see).
Let's first look at Panda's team / Zygod in action (AAA Open Finals). I will mostly use these interactions to prove my points. Against me:
T2 - Panda was able to hard switch-in Zydog on my DesoTran as I click Rocks. As I switch to Dauntless Mew, Zydog gets a free sub. Zydog paralyzes Mew while Mew breaks its sub.
T11 - I tried to trap Blissey with Tran, only to give Panda a free switch into Zydog again. I go Dhelmise, breaks his sub, but he gets a Glare on Dhelmise.
T20 - I trap and kill Blissey, and Zydog comes in to get a free sub (again). It DDs as I break his sub. He subs again as I use FS, easily activating God mode. I soon come to realize Mew has become setup fodder, as both Body Press and Future Sight cannot break sub, not to mention Mew got full para a few times. +6 TArrows kills Mew, I go to Dhelmise to rk (break sub and force it out), taking 68% in the process.
T37 - Zygod comes in on a free switch to gain a bit of passive recovery.
T49 - Zygod hard switches into Heatran (incoming Wish), however, with the help of Terrain boost, Solar Beam was just enough to kill it.
Against crying:
T5 - Panda hard switches Zydog into Thundurus's Tbolt, then as it U-turns Zydog sets up sub.
T16 - Panda hard switches Zydog into Blastoise's Flip Turn, which activates God mode.
T21 - Zygod eats a Grass Knot into U-turn, doing half to Thundy in return. It subs on Blastoise and is threatened out by Vikavolt, as Bug Buzz bypasses sub.
T28 - Zygod DDs up on Vikavolt, does 34 to Vika and takes 26 from Bug Buzz.
T41 - Zygod comes in but is forced out by Mamoswine.
T46 - Zygod comes in on G-Zap, and sets up on Vikavolt again. At +2, it was able to 2HKO the bug. Forced out by Mamo.
T62 - Zygod gets dragged out by DTail, starts setting up. Gets a Glare on Blastoise. G-Zap finally breaks Zygod's sub but it simply subbed again. DDs up on Blastoise on a switch + full para. At +2, it wins against Mamo and cleans the game.
1. It is extremely easy to set up Zyg, whether it's early game or late game.
To start setting up you obviously need to activate Power Construct. And it's quite far from a tall order. Starting off with 115 speed, you get ample opportunities to start subbing, including pretty much any defensive mons, and remember it doesn't matter if they proc Ice Beam or some other coverage specifically for Zyg, you can always simply sub again to activate God mode and then switch out. It can be also played by smartly switching into (not very strong) moves to get to 50% quicker, which is also easier than it sounds:
(dauntless / utility)
+1 184+ Def Mew Body Press vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zygarde-10%: 124-146 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Zygarde-10%: 93-111 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zygarde-10%: 127-150 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zygarde-10%: 50-59 (20 - 23.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (turboblaze / chazm's desotran spread)
0 SpA Turboblaze Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Zygarde-10%: 65-77 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
76+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Zygarde-10% in Harsh Sunshine: 114-135 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
76+ SpA Heatran Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Zygarde-10%: 122-144 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Heatran Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zygarde-10%: 129-153 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Swampert Flip Turn vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zygarde-10%: 76-91 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 61.2% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zygarde-10%: 127-151 (51 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (p sure is UT's scarf spread)
68+ Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zygarde-10%: 129-153 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
68+ Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zygarde-10%: 112-133 (44.9 - 53.4%) -- 35.9% chance to 2HKO
While some of these calcs might not be feasible in battle I think it proves my point, getting Zyg into God mode is not a problem at all.
For even triggering Power Construct, it is a struggle. Since his damage output prior to set up is really handle able, you can end up doing certain uturn cycles that break subs and bring in a faster mon to threaten ohko, forcing you out and leaving you at less health. This you cannot sub up on, and thus cannot trigger PC. Your own leftovers/opposing grassy terrain further betrays you, as you cant simply double sub or even triple sub to get there. Bringing dog form hard into any attacks is very risky, you just have to hope you bring it in on u-turn and eat like 40 to trigger it.
Zyg will only come in on a slower mon, I think we can all agree on this. If your U-turn cannot break Zyg's sub (see Corv calc), you are forced to go to another defensive pivot to break its sub while Zyg DDs up. If your U-turn breaks Zyg's sub (see Pert's calc) it can just DD and eat it lol. You are not obliged to use sub to proc God mode. As being forced out with less health is arguably beneficial to Zyg, that means Zyg can repeat this process with little to no opportunity cost, until God mode activates and nothing breaks its sub anymore. (For reference, the stuff above that does 51-60 to Zydog will do 15-18 to Zygod.)
After that, or even in the meantime, it is also really easy to start boosting. Just look at how many times I wrote "DDs up" or "sets up" above. As one sub often requires two attacks to break, that means Zygod can get a boost per sub, while gaining 2 turns of lefties recovery. This is compounded by its ability to status its checks: assuming Glare, there is 1/4 chance every turn for Zygod to get another free turn; assuming Toxic, after a few turns the foe will have to heal or switch out, giving Zygod another free turn. A free turn means any of another sub, another boost, or spreading more status. If you look at the replays above, you can see Zygod can comfortably set up at least once in multiple occasions, as well as paralyzing multiple of its checks.
2. It is able to consistently make progress in a game.
While I say that mainly with regards to status (Glare is obviously better and cooler than Toxic), Zyg is a rare phenomenon where it can set up early or mid game, do some decent damage, then switch out without much opportunity cost. In Dog mode, subbing up and getting to 50% is an easy way to make progress. In God mode, thanks to the frequent inability to break Zygod's sub in one attack, it is able to fire off a +1/2 TArrows in most cases then switch out, while losing only ~15% health in the process. Half of this can be seen @ T46 vs crying, though Bug Buzz is rarely seen and SpD drop was unlucky for Zygod. Still, Zygod was able to get to +2 and take a kill and switch out with a decent amount of HP. With proper team support (hard to build around or not, we'll see later), Zygod can repeat this process a few times mid-game and then it can clean late-game.
Even if Zygod finds hard counters, its status options allow it to keep making progress. Toxic variants are able to burn out Unaware users' recovery, for example. Glare variants can paralyze its own offensive checks like Scarf Gene, or any other fast mon. A lot of offensive counterplay is thus shut down because they cannot be paralyzed. Paralyzing offensive checks will also open up teammates to clean without the fear of being revenge killed. Against fatter teams, full paras will also allow free turns to further set up. Worst case scenario would probably be if you paralyzed their Unaware, but that sounds like a you problem because you can run Toxic / your other breakers that share the same checks can run Toxic (SpD SD Chomp comes to mind).
3. It forces teams to break its sub in the builder.
Living in 2022 you cannot use CorvBlissPert structures anymore because it crumbles to Zygod so easily. Any team running that without Ice Beam on Pert will let Zygod DD infinitely, and even with Ice Beam, you are doing 36-42 to Zygod, meaning Zygod will win the 1v1 given one free turn or ~20% chip on Pert. Now this obviously does not prove Zyg is unhealthy, as meta adaptation is indisputable, so let's look at whether this "adaptation" is too much.
There are a few (few) defensive mons that is not set up fodder for Zygod: Fini, Ice Beam Mew, Ice Beam / Roar Pert, uhh that's probably it lol. Feel free to add to this list but it will not get long. That's where adaptation comes in, maybe you can run Ice Beam Vapo, for example. But teching just for Zyg's sub doesn't sound very healthy. At +1, not many offensive mons can rk Zygod without taking a million from TArrows: the list probably ends at Grass-types and specific Regen users like Scarf Ice Beam Gene and LO Scale Shot Kommo-o. Personally, I don't see much room to "adapt" to Zyg so I would choose to slap an Unaware on every team instead, but isn't that restrictive? Building offensive structures is discouraged because of Glare, and fat teams without Unaware has to rely on phazing (uncommon).
While I think the post above is quite exaggerated on Zyg's flaws I don't necessarily disagree with them. Notably, Zyg struggles to outdamage Regen, is weak to Knock, is weak to status, and usually stalls more than attacks. Nevertheless, I think the replays above have shown that Zyg is still an extremely potent threat you must prep for. Once we figure out more optimal EVs or alternative movesets, it could actually be unhealthy, but for now I believe Zyg is handleable. Definitely A-rank material, looking forward to seeing it even higher with new innovations.
Also if samples are open here's another one , will provide reasoning if needed
2HKOes the entire team; for 
Nobody listens to me smh. It's my opinion that Zygod is 100% too strong for aaa, and i expect to be vindicated once we figure out how to proc construct reliably. Setup chomp can be a pain to deal with for some teams - now imagine dealing with a chomp that is twice as bulky and doesnt struggle with damaging steel birds at all. The question then becomes how easy is it to reliably proc construct in every game - that will determine whether construct Zydog is never seen, is just an occasional MU fish or becomes a metagame staple. I think procing construct should be relatively simple with subspam and strategically eating a weak attack or two. This is why I voted to keep it banned.
Gengar is Tapu Lele and Blacephalon in better, it makes no sens to have it in the tier again imo esp when it's already hard enough to deal with all the threats.
