-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
AAA Almost Any Ability
- Thread starter UT
- Start date
are "spoilers" allowed if I discuss how current abilities might interact with revealed moves
This thread is for discussing Gen8 AAA, so that would off topic. Once we are closer to release and have more info, the council might briefly talk about plans for next gen here, but until then, let’s stick to current gen.
so, I've already made a post about runerigus, and how it's probably the best hazard setter in the tier
now I will make a theory post about cofagrigus, I can't tell which one will be more annoying for your opponents but they should be screaming obscenities at their screen for the entire game
I use runerigus on my team and I peaked 1707 on haterplayer about a week ago, now I will give you the fruits of wrath with this new heat set
Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Hex
it is hard to fathom a more annoying pokemon to deal with, really try to understand this
you aren't weak to water like runerigus is, so swampert doesn't threaten you out and you can probably take a hit from banded sea baraskuda, your terrakion matchup is weaker but that's the price you pay to be more annoying generally with knock off
really try this out, remember hate is love, people who are mad at you are actually feeling love and don't know how to express it
also I would like to add, if I get these viability nominated I have some fear that they will actually take over the tier so I'm semi reluctant to do that but just between me and you, I guess I've opened the crypt, stay safe out there
also incase I didn't make it clear, runerigus can't learn knock off, cofagrigus can so that's mainly why this set has the potential to be far more annoying, your matchup vs terrakion will be worse though, it's up to you to decide which one is better for your team
now I will make a theory post about cofagrigus, I can't tell which one will be more annoying for your opponents but they should be screaming obscenities at their screen for the entire game
I use runerigus on my team and I peaked 1707 on haterplayer about a week ago, now I will give you the fruits of wrath with this new heat set
Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Hex
it is hard to fathom a more annoying pokemon to deal with, really try to understand this
you aren't weak to water like runerigus is, so swampert doesn't threaten you out and you can probably take a hit from banded sea baraskuda, your terrakion matchup is weaker but that's the price you pay to be more annoying generally with knock off
really try this out, remember hate is love, people who are mad at you are actually feeling love and don't know how to express it
also I would like to add, if I get these viability nominated I have some fear that they will actually take over the tier so I'm semi reluctant to do that but just between me and you, I guess I've opened the crypt, stay safe out there
also incase I didn't make it clear, runerigus can't learn knock off, cofagrigus can so that's mainly why this set has the potential to be far more annoying, your matchup vs terrakion will be worse though, it's up to you to decide which one is better for your team
Last edited:
I made a sandstorm team, it has been working pretty well but I feel like tapu bulu doesn't fit properly and ideas on how to Improve?
https://pokepast.es/bb14cf786bff6b2b
You don't need to be an expert, I'm not that great myself either to post ideas!
https://pokepast.es/bb14cf786bff6b2b
You don't need to be an expert, I'm not that great myself either to post ideas!
bulu is generally considered inferior to zarude and dhelmise in the tier as a grass phys attacker
maybe give bulu triage with horn leech so it isn't reliant on sand, or you could put grassy terrain zarude or dhelmise in its place, with one you get a versatile mon who is immune to psychic with the other you get rapid spin seeing as you have no hazard removal
thanks for posting! here's some quick tips if you want to build sand, though sand isnt really good. if you want to build weather, try rain, but if you just really like sand, well...
make this regenerator with a rocky helmet. you dont really need the grass immunity for anything besides zarude, and this doesnt beat zarude anyways.
i'm not a fan of using either for sand rush sweepers. i think you're better off using something like specs volcanion and just drop having a 2nd in favor of something more defensive.
flash fire corv would be a really good addition here! its got defog, adds a steel, compresses a heatran and a volcarona check into one slot, really just does a lot for the team.
i dont think latios would work very well on this type of team, especially when steels are something you dont exactly enjoy facing. instead, if you want to spam some cool dragon moves, may i suggest regenerator life orb garchomp? can boost speed with scale shot and sd up and heals off life orb recoil
lucario is exclusively used on hyper offense, and outside of that, its not really good. i think the offensive core of specs volcanion and liife orb garchomp is good enough here; why not add something to help with the defensive side? maybe a mew, maybe a chansey, whatever.I attempted to make unaware cresselia stall based on the theory, unaware umbreon stall is so good because its 95 110 130 defenses
turns out unaware cresselia stall is worse, umbreon just walls more things, like poltegheist and the stored power sweepers, the team currently has a random levitate bisharp just to beat polteghest and maybe in some bizarro world it will beat a mamoswine some day, you might ask, why not just use mandibuzz, that exacerbates the weakness to mamoswine to where band adaptability clicks icicle crash 8 times and wins
the team stays with the chansey, runerigus, ferrothorn core which is extremely difficult to break then has cresselia, zapdos for water spam and levitate bisharp/toxapex depending on if you accept polteghiest 6-0ing you is worse than having a solid switchin to cinderace
the toxapex version of the team is probably better, and if you get ferrothorn in with high hp you can probably beat poltegheist if it took hazard damage coming in
this team is stronger vs kommo o and would be fighting type sweepers but worse vs the general pp stall tactics that some teams with multiple sweepers use to wear down unaware mons, looking at you beauts
a calm mind unaware cresselia is an option similar to a calm mind clefable to stallbreak and sweep as a last man standing situation, which I like as an option over umbreon
cresselia is a better option vs tapu lele as well, luckily this threat isn't as common as it should be, most leles don't run calm mind so chansey given sufficient health can stall out focus blasts
with cresselia you're also weak to dark types now especially sweepers, maybe I should keep the levitate bisharp lel
turns out unaware cresselia stall is worse, umbreon just walls more things, like poltegheist and the stored power sweepers, the team currently has a random levitate bisharp just to beat polteghest and maybe in some bizarro world it will beat a mamoswine some day, you might ask, why not just use mandibuzz, that exacerbates the weakness to mamoswine to where band adaptability clicks icicle crash 8 times and wins
the team stays with the chansey, runerigus, ferrothorn core which is extremely difficult to break then has cresselia, zapdos for water spam and levitate bisharp/toxapex depending on if you accept polteghiest 6-0ing you is worse than having a solid switchin to cinderace
the toxapex version of the team is probably better, and if you get ferrothorn in with high hp you can probably beat poltegheist if it took hazard damage coming in
this team is stronger vs kommo o and would be fighting type sweepers but worse vs the general pp stall tactics that some teams with multiple sweepers use to wear down unaware mons, looking at you beauts
a calm mind unaware cresselia is an option similar to a calm mind clefable to stallbreak and sweep as a last man standing situation, which I like as an option over umbreon
cresselia is a better option vs tapu lele as well, luckily this threat isn't as common as it should be, most leles don't run calm mind so chansey given sufficient health can stall out focus blasts
with cresselia you're also weak to dark types now especially sweepers, maybe I should keep the levitate bisharp lel
Last edited:
I’ll always be here to suggest running weird mons, cress seems neat but I would much rather run unaware umbreon, though if you decide to run a calm mind set as a potential stall wincon I would like to point you towards unaware crocune, it needs a decent bit of team support since it can’t touch desolate land, has a hard time with grass types like zarude, and has kinda mediocre defenses by aaa standards but it still puts in plenty of work for me and my teams
that's interesting, I've looked at vaporeon as well but needs more help
I have reached top ladder with this team:
https://pokepast.es/c15811af82b5e991
and I have reached the conclusion that Thundurus is a bit underrated rn, and i personally think no mention of the primsea set is a crime
nplot zap (Thundurus) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boosts
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Weather Ball
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
As it turns out, Zapdos with Nasty Plot, even though it has to trade its bulk and hurricane for it, is pretty good. Dual stab Thunder and Weather ball by themselves can beat most stuff, with focus blast helping against ferrothorn and blobs. Although blobs do only take 50 ish from Fmiss at +2, thats still a lot, and they might struggle to do something back if they lack Toxic. And not every team has a blob, meaning you can go ham with relative ease. You can also fit Knock over focus miss to beat av mons by yourself, at the cost of your ferro and blob MU. Sadly, the bulk is what really limits this. This isnt Zapdos, and it shows. A talonflame LO brave bird does 45-49 to you, so from there you can assume you cant switch into much. At least, you can switch into tran lol. Besides that, youll need pivot support to get this in. Overall, i think this is a solid B to B+ mon. It can do great work, but its quite limited on its opportunities
Lastly, i do want to mention that for the most part, I wasnt running thundy I for my run, instead running this:
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Mystic Water
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Weather Ball
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
the power is mostly not worth it, except of course:
+2 252 SpA Mystic Water Thundurus-Therian Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert in Heavy Rain: 328-387 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 SpA Mystic Water Thundurus Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert in Heavy Rain: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(Knocked av pert)
hell yeah, big number
Last edited:
This is more of a meme post than anything, but may have some potential and is IMO a pretty cool way to do a ton of damage :P
Jynx is the mon I’m using now, as it’s the highest SpA mon in the tier, but I also looked at Crygonal and some others, needs testing to see what is best, but without further ado, I present to you all, STAB Technician Frost Breath. Up to 90 BD from technician, up to 135 from STAB, and the move always CRITS! Jynx is not a strong mon so I don’t see her getting too out of hand (although if you find the right spot to nasty plot I think you OHKO just about anything) but this seems like an insane amount of damage on an ice move :D
Jynx is the mon I’m using now, as it’s the highest SpA mon in the tier, but I also looked at Crygonal and some others, needs testing to see what is best, but without further ado, I present to you all, STAB Technician Frost Breath. Up to 90 BD from technician, up to 135 from STAB, and the move always CRITS! Jynx is not a strong mon so I don’t see her getting too out of hand (although if you find the right spot to nasty plot I think you OHKO just about anything) but this seems like an insane amount of damage on an ice move :D
Super meme, but hey something to maybe think about, last night I just made a team with Cress and Shuckle both running Harvest Sitrus berry in the Sun hahaha. Cheeeeesey but I wanted to think of something different lmao, idk a really good drought user for it tbh I was using Diancie
I think for jynx no guard is probably best, perfectly accurate lovely kiss, blizzard, focus blast, probably life orb nasty plot, heatran and chansey are everywhere and will ruin your fun set
Last edited:
Lovely Kiss is banned under Sleep Moves Clause. In terms of power, Sheer Force Ice Beam is stronger than No Guard Blizzard, so you're trading power for increased accuracy on Focus Blast, and frankly, Jynx needs all the power it can get. It can also run Choice Specs Adaptability for the most power on Ice Beam and Psyshock, which has the added advantage of not needing to find a turn to set up with Jynx's very poor bulk and would also be an upgrade over both Technician and No Guard.
I prefer my moves to hit, which is why I don't run teams that are made and broken on whether focus blast hits, but if I did run offensive teams, I would say, the only way jynx is going to break chansey, or umbreon is if focus blast hits consecutively
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 398-468 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I think no guard has enough power to break defensive teams, also I don't think you'll find a single person using fully spedef umbreon on the ladder, I run mixed unaware, so it does even more to my set
252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Umbreon: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
chansey no guard jynx after eviolite is knocked off
252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Chansey: 296-351 (42.1 - 49.9%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I guess psychic terrain jynx could work, its physdef is awful
BACK WITH ANOTHER MEME SET LIKE USUAL lmao I love the creativity of this OM. Today I bring you a wacky Tapu Lele set that (while admittedly is very hard to up against a good player) can result in a very strong, very fast 250 Bp stab that bypasses substitutes >:)
Choice Scarf Pixilate Echoed Voice :O
While compared to other sets you are going to miss some of that initial umph, you can always run moonblast as well still just to secure kills instantly that you need to. The benefit of this set is that if you get it in position properly, just the 2nd echoed voice is already slightly stronger than moonblast, and if left uninterrupted is on the way to clapping some serious cheeks even against mons with resist, 250 fairy stab with Leles SpA stat really hurts
EDIT: the most success I’ve found strategy wise is to try to chip down a mon that you counter so that you don’t need a moonblast to finish it, just the first EV. They either give you a free stack and damage on someone or you take the kill and a stack which is a GREAT position if the counters to LELE have been dealt with or also chipped!
Choice Scarf Pixilate Echoed Voice :O
While compared to other sets you are going to miss some of that initial umph, you can always run moonblast as well still just to secure kills instantly that you need to. The benefit of this set is that if you get it in position properly, just the 2nd echoed voice is already slightly stronger than moonblast, and if left uninterrupted is on the way to clapping some serious cheeks even against mons with resist, 250 fairy stab with Leles SpA stat really hurts
EDIT: the most success I’ve found strategy wise is to try to chip down a mon that you counter so that you don’t need a moonblast to finish it, just the first EV. They either give you a free stack and damage on someone or you take the kill and a stack which is a GREAT position if the counters to LELE have been dealt with or also chipped!
Hello friends, two quick updates.
We have a new VR, and it links directly to analyses and sample sets on the SmogDex! This should make finding in-depth resources much more straight-forward.
We are open for sample submissions! If you have a team you think would make a good sample, submit it to us!
We have a new VR, and it links directly to analyses and sample sets on the SmogDex! This should make finding in-depth resources much more straight-forward.
We are open for sample submissions! If you have a team you think would make a good sample, submit it to us!
I WANNA SWING Sample Submission - Bug > Elevated
https://pokepast.es/e7d87b22eea21c17
Reasoning:
This team was the monster which got me Genesect reqs in less then 20 hours going 24-1 only losing once and 4-0ing the person on the swing back. This team also climbed me to healthily above #1 on ladder at the time getting me to 1725. I have passed it to several other people 2 of which got top 150 within 3 days of laddering.
Proof of ladder peak:
Notable replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1676906196
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1678513374
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1679331350
https://pokepast.es/e7d87b22eea21c17
Reasoning:
This team was the monster which got me Genesect reqs in less then 20 hours going 24-1 only losing once and 4-0ing the person on the swing back. This team also climbed me to healthily above #1 on ladder at the time getting me to 1725. I have passed it to several other people 2 of which got top 150 within 3 days of laddering.
Proof of ladder peak:
Notable replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1676906196
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1678513374
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8almostanyability-1679331350
Band Zarude + SFLO Lele Bulky Offense
Reasoning for Submission
This is a solid squad of six that I believe is good for laddering due to its good matchups across the board. I have already shared this team with this thread, but I noticed that samples were open now, so it would make sense to post it again. Anyways, this team centralizes around helping the wallbreakers get past their checks through sheer power and chip damage. This team has helped me get to Top 500 on the ladder, however I don't have the screenshot as it happened a while ago. However, I believe that the team still holds up incredibly well, even getting better due to the recent Genesect ban.
Reasoning for Submission
This is a solid squad of six that I believe is good for laddering due to its good matchups across the board. I have already shared this team with this thread, but I noticed that samples were open now, so it would make sense to post it again. Anyways, this team centralizes around helping the wallbreakers get past their checks through sheer power and chip damage. This team has helped me get to Top 500 on the ladder, however I don't have the screenshot as it happened a while ago. However, I believe that the team still holds up incredibly well, even getting better due to the recent Genesect ban.
I'm back to propose yet another HO sample team, since the council didn't like my last stall team (and cause I didn't feel like building one) I have abandoned my quest to find balance and will only provide a super fun HO team for everyone to spam on ladder.
Default screener, it's levitate cause I don't like koko getting whooped by grounds but it could also probably be water absorb to beat barra leads (although volcarona already beats barra super well)
Demon mew is SO GOOD in screens, it already is bulky enough to setup on a lot without screens but add a screener to the mix and it can blatantly setup on pretty much anything other than banded golisopod or heracross
although.....
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew through Reflect: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew through Reflect: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Maybe mew is just broken on HO
An HO team would not be complete without the token garchomp, I went with dazzling instead of spamming unaware chomp like normal because I didn't like losing to random priority
This team needed to have a barra check so this has to be desolate land and I wanted to have psychic coverage for the pex matchup so I couldn't run roost and life orb without roost just gets chipped super easy, so charcoal was the answer to keep dealing super damage with flamethrower without the downside of getting chipped
+1 252+ SpA Charcoal Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Blissey in Harsh Sunshine: 313-370 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
I love these calcs
This mon feels super underrated to me, it's ev'd to always live koko facade from full under screens and once setup can sweep so easily, the calcs with this mon are also super crazy too
252 Atk Pixilate Tapu Koko Facade (140 BP) vs. 8 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar through Reflect: 273-322 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar through Light Screen: 239-282 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Xurkitree Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar in Electric Terrain through Light Screen: 218-257 (67.4 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This thing is just super nice with screen support, especially considering that each of those attacks activate the weakness policy and all I need to do is click agility when they click any of those moves
I love barra on HO teams now, it's nice to have some good speed control on the team and on top of that it has pretty good power too which is always nice on an HO team
This team is super fun to play and has been giving me super nice results on ladder, sadly I didn't have time to grind up to top 20 like I did last time but I think this team could carry me to top 20 if I actually cared to do it rn so I hope y'all add it as a sample
See y'all next time you need samples
Ladder gremlin out!
Default screener, it's levitate cause I don't like koko getting whooped by grounds but it could also probably be water absorb to beat barra leads (although volcarona already beats barra super well) Demon mew is SO GOOD in screens, it already is bulky enough to setup on a lot without screens but add a screener to the mix and it can blatantly setup on pretty much anything other than banded golisopod or heracrossalthough.....
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew through Reflect: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew through Reflect: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Maybe mew is just broken on HO
An HO team would not be complete without the token garchomp, I went with dazzling instead of spamming unaware chomp like normal because I didn't like losing to random priority This team needed to have a barra check so this has to be desolate land and I wanted to have psychic coverage for the pex matchup so I couldn't run roost and life orb without roost just gets chipped super easy, so charcoal was the answer to keep dealing super damage with flamethrower without the downside of getting chipped+1 252+ SpA Charcoal Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Blissey in Harsh Sunshine: 313-370 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
I love these calcs
This mon feels super underrated to me, it's ev'd to always live koko facade from full under screens and once setup can sweep so easily, the calcs with this mon are also super crazy too252 Atk Pixilate Tapu Koko Facade (140 BP) vs. 8 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar through Reflect: 273-322 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar through Light Screen: 239-282 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Xurkitree Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar in Electric Terrain through Light Screen: 218-257 (67.4 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This thing is just super nice with screen support, especially considering that each of those attacks activate the weakness policy and all I need to do is click agility when they click any of those moves
I love barra on HO teams now, it's nice to have some good speed control on the team and on top of that it has pretty good power too which is always nice on an HO teamThis team is super fun to play and has been giving me super nice results on ladder, sadly I didn't have time to grind up to top 20 like I did last time but I think this team could carry me to top 20 if I actually cared to do it rn so I hope y'all add it as a sample
See y'all next time you need samples
Ladder gremlin out!
Almost Any Ability Seasonal runner-up and OMWC winner here to post some disorganized thoughts on the meta before the gen dies
TL;DR this meta sucks to build in, ban ZyDog and Koko, unban Magic Bounce, pray Gen 9 is better, stream Mix and Mingle Machine
- Building for the tier sucks and has sucked since whenever Pixilate Tapu Koko was rediscovered. Koko became broken around that time, but I also feel that the rediscovering of Pixilate Koko led to further discoveries and the rise of various offensive mons such as Galarian Zapdos, Volcanion, and the optimization of ZyGod sets. In theory, this should have led to more defensive counterplay being discovered, but the best we could do is make shitmons like Roseli Garchomp and Runerigus seem like usable options, with the most viable defensive changes being ability changes on already viable mons (Regen Ferro becoming a staple, Magic Guard blobs rising in popularity, VA Pex being something that exists now I guess).
- Playing this tier is rewarding, but linear. I absolutely love using Funny Button Clicker #39 against a team with no switch-ins to it and seeing huge numbers...but 90% of the matches I win end up being centralized around FBC #39 and getting it in (the remaining 10% are Table stall wins). This is mainly why U-turn spam is so strong in this tier; positioning and momentum are everything in AAA, and barring being an absolute crackhead and harding your FBC in on predicted doubles, it's extremely difficult to regain momentum against a good player, especially if you run into a bad MU.
- Ban ZyDog. Not a joke. In a meta with Koko, it barely manages to be balanced because Koko is busted and on a good amount of teams, so there is a consistent form of offensive counterplay. But without Koko, I think we need to realize that a mon this fast with this much set diversity and a surprising lack of switch-ins is not good for the meta. Because Gapdos is a major trend currently, running a defensive Grass- or Bug-type not named Ferrothorn or Golisiopod on like one specific build is a very bad idea right now, so really your best switch-in to ZyDog on most teams is a DShield Mew/Mandy that gets worn down by Toxic and other chip because A. no one is running clerics because they suck and B. pressuring DShield Mew/Mandy is something every good team should be able to do. Beyond that, have fun prepping for Band, Toxic ZyGod, and Glare ZyGod all at once without using one of the DShield mons mentioned above or without opening up major holes in your builder. I guess another Dragon/Ground is cool but the defensive utility of ZyGod is not worth keeping it around.
- Gapdos is really, REALLY good right now, and I think this is for 2 reasons. The first is that teams are heavily prepping for Terrakion, which is still broken af but has seen extremely small usage recently. This would be fine, except that the counterplay for Terrakion (Intimidate pivot + Regen Rock resist, Ghost-types that resist Rock, DShield Mew) doesn't do well against Gapdos because of MGLO sets running Thunderous Kick and U-turn to freely pivot on this answers. Here's a good example of what I mean. Sevag/lazzerpenguin (bad name change) brings Intimidate Corv + Regen Garchomp + unrevealed Genesect on TP, which is perfectly adequate counterplay for Terrakion. However, I bring Adamant MGLO Gapdos, which means I click TKick twice, get a good roll on CC, and break past the Terrakion counterplay pretty easily. The second is that the offensive Flying resists in this tier are pretty ass. It's really just Zapdos and Koko, and while they both have recovery and can force slower Gapdos out, neither of them can withstand a TC Brave Bird without substantial defensive investment, and even then I've found it easy to wear down the sturdier Flying resists such as Corv and Skarmory. Idk if this make Gapdos broken but it's undeniably strong right now.
- After having spent a month building and playing a meta without Magic Bounce, I believe its removal was a net negative as a whole, and would personally like to see it reversed. I get the whole point of it was to nerf the ability to negate progress as well as HO, but I feel like this has actually pushed things in the opposite way too much in the former (in the sense that now progress is TOO consistent) and the latter playstyle has simply adapted into equally brainless Webs or Rocks leads, which consist of having a Prankster lead with entry hazards and 5 FBCs. This has also lead to the rise of Magic Guard users such as blobs, Gapdos, and Volcanion, which I personally find to be quite annoying to deal with due to their inability to take any amount of chip damage that isn't intentional (like coming in on a U-turn or staying in on a pivot attempt to pivot out yourself) combined with their high defenses/offenses. Most importantly, I feel this ban has not actually made the issue of "loading into FBC #47 and autolosing" any more manageable, as removing a valuable defensive tool has been compounded with the rise of Screensless HO builds to make this issue more prominent imo. The only thing I would dislike about MB being back is Screens being stronger, but with Unburden gone + a potential Koko ban, then maybe Screens would be manageable? All I know is that I enjoyed Magic Bounce meta more than the current one.
- Honestly, as much as this post spends on possible tiering changes, I think you just can't really fix the issues this tier has throughout tiering actions, as there's simply too much shit that could potentially be broken even if the top dogs were to be banned. Tapu Bulu, Cinderace, Lando-T, Kommo-O (DD sets outdamage Pex Recover with Quake even after Haze), Barraskewda, Gapdos, Heatran, Latios, Azelf...all of these I can easily see being broken if one of Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, or ZyDog were to be banned. This is completely neglecting mention nicher mons like Mamoswine, Hydreigon, Durluradon (underrated mon, TBolt gives it a niche over Lucario), Dhelmise, Primarina, Chandelure, Salamence, Volcarona, Volcanion, and Xurkitree that builders just have to conviently forget about so they don't spend vauable slots trying to beat these mons at the expense of others. I get teambuilding is all about covering the most you can with the limited slots you have, but I constantly find it frustrating to have to ignore mons like Zarude, Volcarona, and Cosmic Power Mew in builder because trying to beat them would make me lose to something like SFLO Lele. No matter how much shit you ban or unban, the root issue stays the same, and unless we're cool with banning 10+ things a month before the gen ends, then the matchup issue this tier has will never truly be fixed imo. Of course, that shouldn't mean we should stop trying to make the tier the best it can be in the limited time we have and make it playable as an old gen by making tiering actions, but trying to completely fix the tier is not a feasible goal at the moment.
TL;DR this meta sucks to build in, ban ZyDog and Koko, unban Magic Bounce, pray Gen 9 is better, stream Mix and Mingle Machine
Last edited:
Hello friends! I had a blast building for OMWC, especially with beauts, Quantum Tesseract, avyrie, and Isaiah helping out. I'm really proud of almost all the teams we brought, and MZ for making them look good.
China (win vs gostop)
Fun offensive team that uses two non-passive Regens in Garchomp and Fini to provide the backbone for several fun fast offensive guys in Inteleon, Cinderace, and Azelf. Ngl, this is the team I remember the least since it was the longest ago, but had a fun balance of strong fast offensive guys with just enough bulk when you got on the backfoot. MZ was in control of this game pretty much from start to finish, but a fun team.
France (loss vs atha)
Beauts and I had been talking about the idea of no lead, six attacker HO, and tried to bring it against Atha. Unfortunately, I forgot I sucked at building HO, and we had a hard time landing on a team or doing consistent testing. I ended up leaving beauts mostly out to dry building wise, and MZ also loaded into a tough matchup where Atha won the lead handily and brought a really cool tech in Agility Galarian Zapdos. Can't win 'em all.
Canada (win vs avyrie)
This is when we remembered that we had MZ piloting for us, and they are broken with a bulky offense team with lots of outs and a few breakers. Skarm and Nido are both much better in the post-Bounce meta, as they are reliably able to get hazards up and keep them up, ensuring chip and limiting the number of chances your opponent gets to break. The defensive core also has lots of outs versus common breakers, and even Zarude and Chandelure have emergency defensive utility.
UK (win vs PA)
QT had the idea of running Adamant Terrakion, as it gets noticeably better rolls against guys like Corviknight without giving up that much in terms of Speed. Koko could also spread paralysis for it, and the defensive core leaned offensive but had some good catch-alls in Swampert and Mew, with physical Genesect as a wincon.
Making Mew Choice Scarf over Dauntless was a late change, and I totally forgot that that was the only real Pixie Koko check. Thankfully, the team had offensive pressure to quickly force progress on PA's team, enough soft checks to hold the team together, and again, MZ is broken. This was easily when they shown through the best and still won a bad matchup.
Europe (win vs Eeveeto)
We stuck with the formula here: have progress makers, have outs, let MZ play. We also focused a little more intentionally on anti-cheese measures in Unaware Chansey and Scaf Azelf, as we had seen Eeveeto bring stuff like hail earlier in the tour. But again, the combination of hazards, blanket checks, and progress makes carried the day.
Overall, I have been happier with the meta post-Bounce and post-Genesect. The reliability of hazards either forces offensive mons to run Magic Guard or Heavy-Duty Boots, costing them significant power, or be vulnerable to hazards and have limited switch-in opportunities. Genesect was also the mon that was hardest to soft-check, increasing the reliably of defensive counterplay and offensive pressure. True auto-lose options are very, very rare, and between hazards, pressure, and soft-checking, there are always ways to recover from bad positions.
If considering any of these for sample teams, I would go with the Europe or Canada teams (or the UK game if you remember a Pixie check + replace Genesect).
Thanks again to everyone who made OMWC great; I had an amazing time building and playing with y'all, and look forward to where the meta is going in Gen9!
China (win vs gostop)
Fun offensive team that uses two non-passive Regens in Garchomp and Fini to provide the backbone for several fun fast offensive guys in Inteleon, Cinderace, and Azelf. Ngl, this is the team I remember the least since it was the longest ago, but had a fun balance of strong fast offensive guys with just enough bulk when you got on the backfoot. MZ was in control of this game pretty much from start to finish, but a fun team.
France (loss vs atha)
Beauts and I had been talking about the idea of no lead, six attacker HO, and tried to bring it against Atha. Unfortunately, I forgot I sucked at building HO, and we had a hard time landing on a team or doing consistent testing. I ended up leaving beauts mostly out to dry building wise, and MZ also loaded into a tough matchup where Atha won the lead handily and brought a really cool tech in Agility Galarian Zapdos. Can't win 'em all.
Canada (win vs avyrie)
This is when we remembered that we had MZ piloting for us, and they are broken with a bulky offense team with lots of outs and a few breakers. Skarm and Nido are both much better in the post-Bounce meta, as they are reliably able to get hazards up and keep them up, ensuring chip and limiting the number of chances your opponent gets to break. The defensive core also has lots of outs versus common breakers, and even Zarude and Chandelure have emergency defensive utility.
UK (win vs PA)
QT had the idea of running Adamant Terrakion, as it gets noticeably better rolls against guys like Corviknight without giving up that much in terms of Speed. Koko could also spread paralysis for it, and the defensive core leaned offensive but had some good catch-alls in Swampert and Mew, with physical Genesect as a wincon.
Making Mew Choice Scarf over Dauntless was a late change, and I totally forgot that that was the only real Pixie Koko check. Thankfully, the team had offensive pressure to quickly force progress on PA's team, enough soft checks to hold the team together, and again, MZ is broken. This was easily when they shown through the best and still won a bad matchup.
Europe (win vs Eeveeto)
We stuck with the formula here: have progress makers, have outs, let MZ play. We also focused a little more intentionally on anti-cheese measures in Unaware Chansey and Scaf Azelf, as we had seen Eeveeto bring stuff like hail earlier in the tour. But again, the combination of hazards, blanket checks, and progress makes carried the day.
Overall, I have been happier with the meta post-Bounce and post-Genesect. The reliability of hazards either forces offensive mons to run Magic Guard or Heavy-Duty Boots, costing them significant power, or be vulnerable to hazards and have limited switch-in opportunities. Genesect was also the mon that was hardest to soft-check, increasing the reliably of defensive counterplay and offensive pressure. True auto-lose options are very, very rare, and between hazards, pressure, and soft-checking, there are always ways to recover from bad positions.
If considering any of these for sample teams, I would go with the Europe or Canada teams (or the UK game if you remember a Pixie check + replace Genesect).
Thanks again to everyone who made OMWC great; I had an amazing time building and playing with y'all, and look forward to where the meta is going in Gen9!
Hi, here are the team I used in World Cup. The first one is the only one I'm proud of.
(outdated)
Not much to say about the "meta"; I don't think there is a meta. In talking to some people, even those I consider most knowledgeable, and reading some of the posts in the thread, I get the distinct feeling that we don't build and play the same metagame. This is not a metaphor or a way of saying with contempt that they don't understand the game: there is no meta. Or rather there are a multitude of metas, which are not observed as facts, but speculated by the players from bits and pieces of facts - the dozen or so relevant games they have played in the last few weeks. A metagame is something that takes shape when a lot of games are played and a large enough group of good and committed players try to outdo and surprise each other. The feeling I get from this world cup is that a lot of players were not as good and/or involved as the other times. I was never impressed or pleasantly surprised, and I know I am not alone. I can't draw any general trend from the games that were played that would suggest that something like a metagame, which apparently existed in the beginning, has evolved; and frankly, even if it had, I wouldn't trust the players enough to think that this trend is the result of anything other than a vague tendency to copy what others are doing. There's a lot more to say, but here's the bottom line. Can't wait to see what gen9 will bring.
(outdated) Not much to say about the "meta"; I don't think there is a meta. In talking to some people, even those I consider most knowledgeable, and reading some of the posts in the thread, I get the distinct feeling that we don't build and play the same metagame. This is not a metaphor or a way of saying with contempt that they don't understand the game: there is no meta. Or rather there are a multitude of metas, which are not observed as facts, but speculated by the players from bits and pieces of facts - the dozen or so relevant games they have played in the last few weeks. A metagame is something that takes shape when a lot of games are played and a large enough group of good and committed players try to outdo and surprise each other. The feeling I get from this world cup is that a lot of players were not as good and/or involved as the other times. I was never impressed or pleasantly surprised, and I know I am not alone. I can't draw any general trend from the games that were played that would suggest that something like a metagame, which apparently existed in the beginning, has evolved; and frankly, even if it had, I wouldn't trust the players enough to think that this trend is the result of anything other than a vague tendency to copy what others are doing. There's a lot more to say, but here's the bottom line. Can't wait to see what gen9 will bring.
I strongly disagree with the assertion that runerigus is a shitmon, I challenge anyone to actually use it once, no not the gimmick suicide lead, the regen set and say the same thing, but I will agree that galarian zapdos and zydog are metalords, not that they should be banned however, gen 9 will be undoubtedly worse but I admire your optimismAlmost Any Ability Seasonal runner-up and OMWC winner here to post some disorganized thoughts on the meta before the gen dies
- Building for the tier sucks and has sucked since whenever Pixilate Tapu Koko was rediscovered. Koko became broken around that time, but I also feel that the rediscovering of Pixilate Koko led to further discoveries and the rise of various offensive mons such as Galarian Zapdos, Volcanion, and the optimization of ZyGod sets. In theory, this should have led to more defensive counterplay being discovered, but the best we could do is make shitmons like Roseli Garchomp and Runerigus seem like usable options, with the most viable defensive changes being ability changes on already viable mons (Regen Ferro becoming a staple, Magic Guard blobs rising in popularity, VA Pex being something that exists now I guess).
- Playing this tier is rewarding, but linear. I absolutely love using Funny Button Clicker #39 against a team with no switch-ins to it and seeing huge numbers...but 90% of the matches I win end up being centralized around FBC #39 and getting it in (the remaining 10% are Table stall wins). This is mainly why U-turn spam is so strong in this tier; positioning and momentum are everything in AAA, and barring being an absolute crackhead and harding your FBC in on predicted doubles, it's extremely difficult to regain momentum against a good player, especially if you run into a bad MU.
- Ban ZyDog. Not a joke. In a meta with Koko, it barely manages to be balanced because Koko is busted and on a good amount of teams, so there is a consistent form of offensive counterplay. But without Koko, I think we need to realize that a mon this fast with this much set diversity and a surprising lack of switch-ins is not good for the meta. Because Gapdos is a major trend currently, running a defensive Grass- or Bug-type not named Ferrothorn or Golisiopod on like one specific build is a very bad idea right now, so really your best switch-in to ZyDog on most teams is a DShield Mew/Mandy that gets worn down by Toxic and other chip because A. no one is running clerics because they suck and B. pressuring DShield Mew/Mandy is something every good team should be able to do. Beyond that, have fun prepping for Band, Toxic ZyGod, and Glare ZyGod all at once without using one of the DShield mons mentioned above or without opening up major holes in your builder. I guess another Dragon/Ground is cool but the defensive utility of ZyGod is not worth keeping it around.
- Gapdos is really, REALLY good right now, and I think this is for 2 reasons. The first is that teams are heavily prepping for Terrakion, which is still broken af but has seen extremely small usage recently. This would be fine, except that the counterplay for Terrakion (Intimidate pivot + Regen Rock resist, Ghost-types that resist Rock, DShield Mew) doesn't do well against Gapdos because of MGLO sets running Thunderous Kick and U-turn to freely pivot on this answers. Here's a good example of what I mean. Sevag/lazzerpenguin (bad name change) brings Intimidate Corv + Regen Garchomp + unrevealed Genesect on TP, which is perfectly adequate counterplay for Terrakion. However, I bring Adamant MGLO Gapdos, which means I click TKick twice, get a good roll on CC, and break past the Terrakion counterplay pretty easily. The second is that the offensive Flying resists in this tier are pretty ass. It's really just Zapdos and Koko, and while they both have recovery and can force slower Gapdos out, neither of them can withstand a TC Brave Bird without substantial defensive investment, and even then I've found it easy to wear down the sturdier Flying resists such as Corv and Skarmory. Idk if this make Gapdos broken but it's undeniably strong right now.
- After having spent a month building and playing a meta without Magic Bounce, I believe its removal was a net negative as a whole, and would personally like to see it reversed. I get the whole point of it was to nerf the ability to negate progress as well as HO, but I feel like this has actually pushed things in the opposite way too much in the former (in the sense that now progress is TOO consistent) and the latter playstyle has simply adapted into equally brainless Webs or Rocks leads, which consist of having a Prankster lead with entry hazards and 5 FBCs. This has also lead to the rise of Magic Guard users such as blobs, Gapdos, and Volcanion, which I personally find to be quite annoying to deal with due to their inability to take any amount of chip damage that isn't intentional (like coming in on a U-turn or staying in on a pivot attempt to pivot out yourself) combined with their high defenses/offenses. Most importantly, I feel this ban has not actually made the issue of "loading into FBC #47 and autolosing" any more manageable, as removing a valuable defensive tool has been compounded with the rise of Screensless HO builds to make this issue more prominent imo. The only thing I would dislike about MB being back is Screens being stronger, but with Unburden gone + a potential Koko ban, then maybe Screens would be manageable? All I know is that I enjoyed Magic Bounce meta more than the current one.
- Honestly, as much as this post spends on possible tiering changes, I think you just can't really fix the issues this tier has throughout tiering actions, as there's simply too much shit that could potentially be broken even if the top dogs were to be banned. Tapu Bulu, Cinderace, Lando-T, Kommo-O (DD sets outdamage Pex Recover with Quake even after Haze), Barraskewda, Gapdos, Heatran, Latios, Azelf...all of these I can easily see being broken if one of Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, or ZyDog were to be banned. This is completely neglecting mention nicher mons like Mamoswine, Hydreigon, Durluradon (underrated mon, TBolt gives it a niche over Lucario), Dhelmise, Primarina, Chandelure, Salamence, Volcarona, Volcanion, and Xurkitree that builders just have to conviently forget about so they don't spend vauable slots trying to beat these mons at the expense of others. I get teambuilding is all about covering the most you can with the limited slots you have, but I constantly find it frustrating to have to ignore mons like Zarude, Volcarona, and Cosmic Power Mew in builder because trying to beat them would make me lose to something like SFLO Lele. No matter how much shit you ban or unban, the root issue stays the same, and unless we're cool with banning 10+ things a month before the gen ends, then the matchup issue this tier has will never truly be fixed imo. Of course, that shouldn't mean we should stop trying to make the tier the best it can be in the limited time we have and make it playable as an old gen by making tiering actions, but trying to completely fix the tier is not a feasible goal at the moment.
TL;DR this meta sucks to build in, ban ZyDog and Koko, unban Magic Bounce, pray Gen 9 is better, stream Mix and Mingle Machine
also this isn't a one liner so any thought of deleting my post, actually contributing to discussion would be foolhardy, please refrain
also as a side note, who is the siamato guy and how did he get 94 gxe, he's a ghost, no one has ever seen him play, an old wives tale
Last edited:
Sample submission.
The Table Stall
No team is more iconic (besides The Flagship) in AAA imo than The Table Stall. This team has singlehandedly ruined the mentals of many a suspect test ladderer, seen mild tournament success when brought, and carried me personally to at least 3 different suspect tests throughout various metas. For months I have toiled away, attempting to find the perfect version of stall, and I believe I have finally struck a gold mine.
Avalugg is the main cornerstone of this team, with its titanic physical bulk allowing it to switch into various physical breakers such as ZyDog, Barraskewda, Tapu Bulu, Zarude, Salamence, Golisopod, and even stuff like Terrakion from full if it wants to scout. It never really dies unless I want it to, and with strong support moves like Rapid Spin, Toxic, and Icicle Spear to fuck over Sub ZyGod, it is undisputedly a valuable member of the team. Dhelmise is the secondary hazards removal, mainly used for those annoying Excadrill builds, but also for its status immunity and nifty Ground resist, adding even more counterplay to ZyDog and Garchomp. Suffice to say, with these two alive, they are nothing but fleas. Heatran is the obligatory Steel-type Rocker that deals with mons like Corviknight and Tapu Koko, getting Rocks up almost always in a meta without Magic Bounce. Volcarona was a nuisance for past renditions of this team, but fear not! With your trusty Rock Slide Heatran and some smart EVs, you always live a hit from full from +1 MGLO Volcarona and always KO with Rock Slide (unless it misses, then you cry), with the added bonus of outspeeding min Speed Tapu Fini. Chansey is your special wall, mainly there to fuck over Volcanion along with most other special attackers like Heatran and Zapdos, although U-turn chip is annoying to say the least. Pex is standard, you click Haze on setup sweepers and somehow never die. Gastro Acid means that MG mons like Gapdos and Volcarona can't just sit on your forever, especially if they come on a Chansey Toxic or something. Finally, Mew is the role compression mon, putting all of Spikes + Knock + Unaware + Galvanize Kommo-O switch-in + random bullshit denier all in one.
This team is nearly perfect but does have a few issues. Hydreigon wins the moment Chansey gets flinched, DesoLand Taunt + Court Change Cinderace is a major pain in the ass if it has support, and I've seen random shit like Prankster CP + Taunt Mew streamroll this team. Of course, good players with offensive VoltTurn cores can also do well against this team; however, it either requires some strong hazards removal or multiple MG/HDB mons with U-turn, and even then, between the double removal and Knock on Mew, I feel the team has enough counterplay for them. I truly hope this absolutely iconic team is considered as a sample team.
The Table Stall
No team is more iconic (besides The Flagship) in AAA imo than The Table Stall. This team has singlehandedly ruined the mentals of many a suspect test ladderer, seen mild tournament success when brought, and carried me personally to at least 3 different suspect tests throughout various metas. For months I have toiled away, attempting to find the perfect version of stall, and I believe I have finally struck a gold mine.
Avalugg is the main cornerstone of this team, with its titanic physical bulk allowing it to switch into various physical breakers such as ZyDog, Barraskewda, Tapu Bulu, Zarude, Salamence, Golisopod, and even stuff like Terrakion from full if it wants to scout. It never really dies unless I want it to, and with strong support moves like Rapid Spin, Toxic, and Icicle Spear to fuck over Sub ZyGod, it is undisputedly a valuable member of the team. Dhelmise is the secondary hazards removal, mainly used for those annoying Excadrill builds, but also for its status immunity and nifty Ground resist, adding even more counterplay to ZyDog and Garchomp. Suffice to say, with these two alive, they are nothing but fleas. Heatran is the obligatory Steel-type Rocker that deals with mons like Corviknight and Tapu Koko, getting Rocks up almost always in a meta without Magic Bounce. Volcarona was a nuisance for past renditions of this team, but fear not! With your trusty Rock Slide Heatran and some smart EVs, you always live a hit from full from +1 MGLO Volcarona and always KO with Rock Slide (unless it misses, then you cry), with the added bonus of outspeeding min Speed Tapu Fini. Chansey is your special wall, mainly there to fuck over Volcanion along with most other special attackers like Heatran and Zapdos, although U-turn chip is annoying to say the least. Pex is standard, you click Haze on setup sweepers and somehow never die. Gastro Acid means that MG mons like Gapdos and Volcarona can't just sit on your forever, especially if they come on a Chansey Toxic or something. Finally, Mew is the role compression mon, putting all of Spikes + Knock + Unaware + Galvanize Kommo-O switch-in + random bullshit denier all in one.
This team is nearly perfect but does have a few issues. Hydreigon wins the moment Chansey gets flinched, DesoLand Taunt + Court Change Cinderace is a major pain in the ass if it has support, and I've seen random shit like Prankster CP + Taunt Mew streamroll this team. Of course, good players with offensive VoltTurn cores can also do well against this team; however, it either requires some strong hazards removal or multiple MG/HDB mons with U-turn, and even then, between the double removal and Knock on Mew, I feel the team has enough counterplay for them. I truly hope this absolutely iconic team is considered as a sample team.