I may be an idiot for asking this but why is Zacian banned? It has the exact same stat distribution as Zamazenta and virtually the same move pool. The thing that normally make it broken aren't a factor as any mon can have Intrepid Sword. It's just Zama with slightly better typing and a weaker stab in play rough < close combat and the inability to give screens support.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
The leaders of this forum are April, dhelmise, and Giagantic. The moderators of this forum are Chessking345, KaenSoul, kenn, Ransei, QT, and Tea Guzzler.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame Almost Any Ability
- Thread starter LordBox
- Start date
Uhh get the long answer for somebody who’s actually well-versed in the metagame but short answer:
Zamazenta’s already controversial as is, and a fairy type is a way better typing than fighting, especially in this metagame.
Zacian has access to a far better setup moves Swords Dance which would make it an incredibly dangerous setup sweeper in the meta at the very least. While the idea has been floated around a few times it's not particularly serious given it would practically force any team to have Fluffy Corviknighy or an Intimidate Pecharunt to properly check this thing and even then you still need to play around it very carefully.
Thank you both for your input when scrolling through their move pools I missed Zamazenta not accessing Swords Dance and didn't realize Fairy was so good compared to fighting.
4th move on RegenVest 
Yes, that is literally the whole post.
Let me rip off BKC's cinematic masterpiece aptly named "4th Move on CB Metagross"
An "extensive" guide
Let's be real here, when's the last time you ever clicked the 4th move on Yes, that is literally the whole post.
Let me rip off BKC's cinematic masterpiece aptly named "4th Move on CB Metagross"
An "extensive" guide
? Literally never. It's Flip Turn, Earthquake, and Knock-Off. That leaves us with a whole host of moves to choose from. The actually good(ish) moves:
Stone Edge : Catch
and insantly slash off at least 66% of it's health. Also catches 
, but you'd rather just Flip Turn to be hoenst.- Rock Slide : Hate missing and ? Slot in Rock Slide!
and ? Slot in Rock Slide!- Smack Down : Wanna take extra 
chip from 
& 
in exchange for a free EQ? Choose this move.
chip from & in exchange for a free EQ? Choose this move.- Rock Tomb : Hate missing even more? Want to do absolutely negative damage? Wanna slow down something? Rock Tomb is your guy!
Ice Beam : Catch 
, , DesoLand 
and mid-ground & . Also has the ability to leave a pokemon with semi-permanent hypothermia. But really just.. click the ultimate mid-ground move called Knock-Off...- Ice Punch : Same things as above but you now get chipped because of and do more damage to the aforementioned targets.
and do more damage to the aforementioned targets.- Avalanche : Same things as above but now your move is weaker 95% of the time! Also you can't freeze someone sadly...
Poison Jab : Stop 
from existing. Also the second best mid-ground into , Any water immunity pokemon and honestly anything thats not a steel type. But.. Knock Off exists...
Moves that exist...:Surf : Despite being stab on
, no one uses this move. Well that is partially justified since, you hit no relevant targets except maybe with PrimSea. I guess you can 4HKO and . But then again the best mid-ground move exists and also Flip Turn. - Hydro Pump : Same things as above but you have a 20%ish to 3hko the metal birds. You can also miss, which is not fun...
Hammer Arm : Stop Desoland 
with an 
from ruining your day. You can actually lose the speed tie on other by clicking this move then the better move called Flip Turn.- Focus Punch : Literally worse than Hammer Arm in its function except in style points.
- Focus Blast : Even more worse than Focus Punch except you get the luxury of shooting your computer when you miss.
Mirror Coat : 75% of time you're clicking this move you are already dead to any competent grass coverage. The other 25% of time, is you actually punishing that tries fish for Hurricane confusions or 
overpredicting. But yknow Flip Turn and Knock Off both exist...Stealth Rock : Wait Stealth Rock on an
user? Want to cope that you have a rocks setter but can't fit it? Just hope you get knocked and get free rocks!Outrage : Wait it gets Outrage? Why? I guess if you really wanted to dent
and then get locked into a fairy type. But just click Knock Off...Avoid pretty much everything else...
There's also Brick Break for the Screens matchup. Saying this before Racool comes at your house to kill you4th move on RegenVestLet's be real here, when's the last time you ever clicked the 4th move on
Yes, that is literally the whole post.
Let me rip off BKC's cinematic masterpiece aptly named "4th Move on CB Metagross"
An "extensive" guide
The actually good(ish) moves:
Stone Edge : Catch
- Rock Slide : Hate missing- Smack Down : Wanna take extra- Rock Tomb : Hate missing even more? Want to do absolutely negative damage? Wanna slow down something? Rock Tomb is your guy!Ice Beam : Catch
- Ice Punch : Same things as above but you now get chipped because of- Avalanche : Same things as above but now your move is weaker 95% of the time! Also you can't freeze someone sadly...Poison Jab : Stop
Moves that exist...:
Surf : Despite being stab on
- Hydro Pump : Same things as above but you have a 20%ish to 3hko the metal birds. You can also miss, which is not fun...Hammer Arm : Stop Desoland
- Focus Punch : Literally worse than Hammer Arm in its function except in style points.- Focus Blast : Even more worse than Focus Punch except you get the luxury of shooting your computer when you miss.Mirror Coat : 75% of time you're clicking this move you are already dead to any competent grass coverage. The other 25% of time, is you actually punishing
Stealth Rock : Wait Stealth Rock on an
Outrage : Wait it gets Outrage? Why? I guess if you really wanted to dent
Avoid pretty much everything else...
Ceruledge has been banned! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-amalgamation-ceruledge.3758828/post-10438108
100th post + dumping the teams I built for majors. I was able to do fine on ladder, able to get #1 and 90+ gxe, but they all feel too honest/have ridiculously bad mu's into random things so they r like w/e.
Entei balance, based this team around an ivar team from open, it's fun and fresh, but is pretty susceptible to things like set up stail.
This set feels like the truth for it, spikes always let u make progress vs things like zap, and trailblaze lets you become a deadly late-game cleaner, gets bricked by wbb corv but u can play around w tusk and zap.
I don't really think offensive is that good in the current meta, especially now that ceru is gone, although imo it was better even before it got axed. You need the bulk for zama/other random phys threats and the extra damage output isn't needed as spikes help even it out. Speed doesn't feel necessary because teams either have the hard counters to zap (pert, treads, vabs corv) that are slower and get droned on anyway, or the faster threats (moon, boulder, chien) that you wouldn't stay in on anyway. Ig it helps against tusk but most of the time its trading knock for its life at best and its never really staying in on zap anyway. Thunder/Hurricane a busted combo so it bullies the mons the same that it did before even with the reduced damage output.
v1 of the team I ended up using, felt too passive and got dunked on by opposing spike stack so I wanted to rework.
Fun team, gets dunked on by primarina and I load into modest stamina set-up so yea it was just a matter of time before that thing swept, didn't help I got the zapdos turns wrong every time. I wanted brick break pert in case I loaded into screens, I don't usually use mana/pert cores because I don't like the spdef cores they force, and I think testing with it this past week and the game just reinforce that idea for me.
Random spike stack I used on ladder. 3a tect stail is actually heat and dunks on treads that switch-in to check. Tbh I've been vibing w non-wish stail, and it feels like the future for the mon, wish is fine but its always felt exploitable and weaker compared to more offensive sets since psynoise is busted asl. Protect is also just busted because of all the choice lock mons and mons that think they know ur set since u reveal tect and they get bopped w noise or flame.
As for meta thoughts, I'm a broken record but it is like ok. I think getting rid of Ceru was a step in the right direction but you are pulled in completely different directions in the builder when it comes to checking certain mons (zama, chien, rmoon) that the meta will still be incredibly centralized. I've changed opinion on Chien-Pao, as its really the only good user of priority in the tier rn and getting rid of that would make things even more stale, set-up harder to check, and less reliable revenge options. It has decent enough checks and honestly punishes lazy corv builds the most, which is fine. Though in the long-term for the tier it'd prob be better to either get rid of chien or zama, and since zama stayed then I see chien going simply because it has been contentious for so long.
The past few suspects all I read is everything is a 'comfort ban' (whatever that means anyway), this mon would be the furthest from that and would actually force meaningful meta shifts and action post ban. Though I guess if everyone wants the blanket omnicheck, that is also the most brainless and powerful progress maker, that also has insane longevity bc of mg/regen, thats fine (it can also be a deadly set-up wincon, whatever you need it to be!); I just don't understand many of the common complaints about the tier I read when even the thought of suspecting this mon is met w such opposition. It stifles creativity in builder in terms of offensive and defensive cores, as there is currently no reason to run anything else as it is a cut above all other mons in this tier to an insane degree. In-game it is even worse, as it controls and dictates the flow of any game since there is realistically a very small pool of mons that can switch-in to its damage output w knock + turn (which then become fodder for its teammates it pivots in anyway). Atp to me most aaa games come down to who can play their moon better to get their breaker in fast enough to beat down the other team before you yourself get worn down, or you load the right defensive core and just wall w/e they brought so then it really just becomes ab KOing their moon. (also I'm not rlly gonna engage in a convo ab this, this is more for me to get it off my chest since I know at the end of the day this guy is gonna stay because its viewed as too important for the tier to function)
This mon hasn't been the best regen since wake meta, and I still stand by my B+ vote for this thing when we did the voting a few months ago. It is a jack of all trade's master of none to me. Full Phys def/spdef make you lose out on valuable and common mu's on either side of the spectrum, you still need a good amount defensive support for it as mons like zapdos and literally all fires can dunk on it either way, and it is very susceptible to getting knocked/becomes bricked when that does happen. Knock/u-turn/scald is nowhere near as valuable as it used to be, and there has been quite a bit of counterplay developed that naturally handle what mana can do. I also don't think it checks things nearly as well now, and other regens can do similar things while having valuable tools/better mu's into specific threats. I also just think that the cores it forces are boring/weak/aren't as progressive as people have been thinking of ways to beat them for over a year, so you naturally find more counterplay to it compared to some other regens. All this to say consider using other regens in the builder!
Also I'm dipping from council, irl is getting busier than I expected and I want to be able to focus on school/work more meaningfully.
Entei balance, based this team around an ivar team from open, it's fun and fresh, but is pretty susceptible to things like set up stail.
This set feels like the truth for it, spikes always let u make progress vs things like zap, and trailblaze lets you become a deadly late-game cleaner, gets bricked by wbb corv but u can play around w tusk and zap. I don't really think offensive is that good in the current meta, especially now that ceru is gone, although imo it was better even before it got axed. You need the bulk for zama/other random phys threats and the extra damage output isn't needed as spikes help even it out. Speed doesn't feel necessary because teams either have the hard counters to zap (pert, treads, vabs corv) that are slower and get droned on anyway, or the faster threats (moon, boulder, chien) that you wouldn't stay in on anyway. Ig it helps against tusk but most of the time its trading knock for its life at best and its never really staying in on zap anyway. Thunder/Hurricane a busted combo so it bullies the mons the same that it did before even with the reduced damage output.v1 of the team I ended up using, felt too passive and got dunked on by opposing spike stack so I wanted to rework.
Fun team, gets dunked on by primarina and I load into modest stamina set-up so yea it was just a matter of time before that thing swept, didn't help I got the zapdos turns wrong every time. I wanted brick break pert in case I loaded into screens, I don't usually use mana/pert cores because I don't like the spdef cores they force, and I think testing with it this past week and the game just reinforce that idea for me.
Random spike stack I used on ladder. 3a tect stail is actually heat and dunks on treads that switch-in to check. Tbh I've been vibing w non-wish stail, and it feels like the future for the mon, wish is fine but its always felt exploitable and weaker compared to more offensive sets since psynoise is busted asl. Protect is also just busted because of all the choice lock mons and mons that think they know ur set since u reveal tect and they get bopped w noise or flame.
As for meta thoughts, I'm a broken record but it is like ok. I think getting rid of Ceru was a step in the right direction but you are pulled in completely different directions in the builder when it comes to checking certain mons (zama, chien, rmoon) that the meta will still be incredibly centralized. I've changed opinion on Chien-Pao, as its really the only good user of priority in the tier rn and getting rid of that would make things even more stale, set-up harder to check, and less reliable revenge options. It has decent enough checks and honestly punishes lazy corv builds the most, which is fine. Though in the long-term for the tier it'd prob be better to either get rid of chien or zama, and since zama stayed then I see chien going simply because it has been contentious for so long.
The past few suspects all I read is everything is a 'comfort ban' (whatever that means anyway), this mon would be the furthest from that and would actually force meaningful meta shifts and action post ban. Though I guess if everyone wants the blanket omnicheck, that is also the most brainless and powerful progress maker, that also has insane longevity bc of mg/regen, thats fine (it can also be a deadly set-up wincon, whatever you need it to be!); I just don't understand many of the common complaints about the tier I read when even the thought of suspecting this mon is met w such opposition. It stifles creativity in builder in terms of offensive and defensive cores, as there is currently no reason to run anything else as it is a cut above all other mons in this tier to an insane degree. In-game it is even worse, as it controls and dictates the flow of any game since there is realistically a very small pool of mons that can switch-in to its damage output w knock + turn (which then become fodder for its teammates it pivots in anyway). Atp to me most aaa games come down to who can play their moon better to get their breaker in fast enough to beat down the other team before you yourself get worn down, or you load the right defensive core and just wall w/e they brought so then it really just becomes ab KOing their moon. (also I'm not rlly gonna engage in a convo ab this, this is more for me to get it off my chest since I know at the end of the day this guy is gonna stay because its viewed as too important for the tier to function) This mon hasn't been the best regen since wake meta, and I still stand by my B+ vote for this thing when we did the voting a few months ago. It is a jack of all trade's master of none to me. Full Phys def/spdef make you lose out on valuable and common mu's on either side of the spectrum, you still need a good amount defensive support for it as mons like zapdos and literally all fires can dunk on it either way, and it is very susceptible to getting knocked/becomes bricked when that does happen. Knock/u-turn/scald is nowhere near as valuable as it used to be, and there has been quite a bit of counterplay developed that naturally handle what mana can do. I also don't think it checks things nearly as well now, and other regens can do similar things while having valuable tools/better mu's into specific threats. I also just think that the cores it forces are boring/weak/aren't as progressive as people have been thinking of ways to beat them for over a year, so you naturally find more counterplay to it compared to some other regens. All this to say consider using other regens in the builder!Also I'm dipping from council, irl is getting busier than I expected and I want to be able to focus on school/work more meaningfully.
Last edited:
Yes, that is a fundamental gameplay mechanic, something that is uneffected by AAA which is exclusively about letting you use all allowed abilities.
Last edited:
Perhaps I’m missing something but does it seem like Ogerpon-Hearthflame is little too good at wall breaking? Outside of Moltres and well baked body Corviknight it seems nearly impossible to switch into
primsea zap and also other well baked body steels like ghold exists but yea it can be quite hard to wall without dedicated checks
It is an ok breaker, but it has far more defensive checks than you list here. Going through the VR in the resources you have Roaring Moon (RegenVest/MGLO) as a soft check, Prankster or Intimidate Pecharunt as an okay check, Zapdos which is a fairly strong counter (though Ogerpon can tech around it kind of), the majority of the Baked variants often completely stuff it, alongside even stuff like Arch and Latios. Apart from this list its middling speed-tier often means it needs a good deal of positioning to get in and wreak some havoc otherwise being pressured by the multitude of faster threats like Zamazenta and Pao given its lack of great resists/bulk to leverage.
252+ Atk Steelworker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Abomasnow in Snow: 344-408 (89.8 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Steely Spirit Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Abomasnow in Snow: 344-408 (89.8 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
They provide the same attack boost; Steely Spirit however is better in doubles but that's of course not relevant here
Steel Spirit also has the very tiny niche of boosting the power of Jirachi's Doom Desire, if the Steely Spirit mon is on the field when Doom Desire hits.
Unless you are also running Doom Desire Jirachi, Steely Spirit and Steelworker are functionally identical in AAA.
Trick Room in singles is and always has been a meme team format that most good teams can play around fairly readily. Offense generally just offenses. Balance and slower archetypes have the tank to handle it. Hyper Offense can have issues if relying on things like sticky web and frail sweepers but the archetype has always been flawed and as I like to put it, gimmicky.
In my short time trying trick room the only gimmick that actually worked was the one that doesn’t actually need to be on a dedicated trick room team (shocker). I present to you OTR Bronzong. Steely spirit makes gyro ball hilariously strong, 2hkoing offensive crown and killing basically anything that doesn’t resist it. The special attack with steel beam lets you ohko max hp tusk and prevent defog if you kill yourself with it.
Bronzong @ Iron Plate
Ability: Steely Spirit
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Steel Beam
Some funny calcs:
144 SpA Iron Plate Steely Spirit Bronzong Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 150-177 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Iron Plate Steely Spirit Bronzong Gyro Ball (141 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 466-549 (112.8 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144 SpA Iron Plate Steely Spirit Bronzong Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 438-516 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144 SpA Iron Plate Steely Spirit Bronzong Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pecharunt: 292-345 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Bronzong @ Iron Plate
Ability: Steely Spirit
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Steel Beam
Some funny calcs:
144 SpA Iron Plate Steely Spirit Bronzong Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 150-177 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Iron Plate Steely Spirit Bronzong Gyro Ball (141 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 466-549 (112.8 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144 SpA Iron Plate Steely Spirit Bronzong Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 438-516 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144 SpA Iron Plate Steely Spirit Bronzong Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pecharunt: 292-345 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Hey, I come baring two cool sets!
Fast Intimidate Pecharunt
Pecharunt @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Malignant Chain
- Parting Shot
- Recover
I will credit Glory for this though I've used it before but they reminded me of it through their superior application and skills. Fast Pecharunt is just really good, it is max speed, not anything less which lets it outspeed a vast number of threats from Hadron Vest Iron Crowns that run 301 speed typically or even lower to Great Tusk and anything else 301 speed or less which includes Gholdengo and other more defensive sets like Iron Treads. It is still reasonably bulky due to Intimidate and max hp with its high natural defense, plus can trade with even Banded Roaring Moons due to Colbur Berry though other options are available like HBD or Black Sludge. Fast Parting Shot is just underrated and lets it weaken stuff in ways that normal slow Pecharunt sets don't whilst remaining healthy due to not having to take a hit first before getting the parting off.
Choice Band Protean Zamazenta
Zamazenta @ Choice Band
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Heavy Slam
Protean Zamazenta is just really cool as it can break sutff like Pecharunt and counter Prankster sets by preventing Parting Shot, hit really hard with Stone Edge vs Corvs/Skarms, etc... It has both defensive and offensive applications through the changing of type matchups. Fire Fang can be run over Heavy Slam to better break fluffy Corviknights but I prefer Heavy Slam for its ability to troll Scream Tail and for its good defensive typing preventing stuff like scarf Latios from easily revenge killing a healthy Zamazenta.
Fast Intimidate Pecharunt
Pecharunt @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Malignant Chain
- Parting Shot
- Recover
I will credit Glory for this though I've used it before but they reminded me of it through their superior application and skills. Fast Pecharunt is just really good, it is max speed, not anything less which lets it outspeed a vast number of threats from Hadron Vest Iron Crowns that run 301 speed typically or even lower to Great Tusk and anything else 301 speed or less which includes Gholdengo and other more defensive sets like Iron Treads. It is still reasonably bulky due to Intimidate and max hp with its high natural defense, plus can trade with even Banded Roaring Moons due to Colbur Berry though other options are available like HBD or Black Sludge. Fast Parting Shot is just underrated and lets it weaken stuff in ways that normal slow Pecharunt sets don't whilst remaining healthy due to not having to take a hit first before getting the parting off.
Choice Band Protean Zamazenta
Zamazenta @ Choice Band
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Heavy Slam
Protean Zamazenta is just really cool as it can break sutff like Pecharunt and counter Prankster sets by preventing Parting Shot, hit really hard with Stone Edge vs Corvs/Skarms, etc... It has both defensive and offensive applications through the changing of type matchups. Fire Fang can be run over Heavy Slam to better break fluffy Corviknights but I prefer Heavy Slam for its ability to troll Scream Tail and for its good defensive typing preventing stuff like scarf Latios from easily revenge killing a healthy Zamazenta.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2320967955
Ayo ban Gholdengo ;)
I wasn't a believer but this shows why the money man is the new S rank. Its not often you see a semi defensive mon literally 1v6 a team. (Yes it was a bad team from the opponent but its funny anyways)
Ayo ban Gholdengo ;)
I wasn't a believer but this shows why the money man is the new S rank. Its not often you see a semi defensive mon literally 1v6 a team. (Yes it was a bad team from the opponent but its funny anyways)
Yo quick question: how do you counter cinderace? He's annoying and him speed-tieing with roaring moon just makes things worse
Fire Immune Pokemon (well-baked body anything, primordial sea waters/zapdos) are the most direct counters, but the common Regenerator Swampert and Manaphy can be very effective checks at all points throughout a game, as well as Pecharunt being a hard wall. Defensive Moltres and Great Tusk in a pinch (not fluffy, as that will take extra damage from pyro ball) can also work. All teams have to be prepared for fire types in AAA with desolate land being a thing and most forms of Anti-Fire will cover cinderace. Oh also shoutouts to bulletproof iron treads for blocking pyro ball lol
Cinderace is a pretty mediocre Pokemon, all it brings to the table is mostly offensive qualities that other Pokemon do better whilst having barely any defensive qualities. This means getting in to actually do anything is hard for it, so simply limiting opportunities for it to enter play is enough.
As for specifics, balance simply checks by running Swampert or Manaphy among others can answer anything it can output and then pivot or attack it. Offensive teams simply deny opportunities through pressure and faster Pokemon such as Zamazenta or scarf stuff.
Fundamentally, Cinderace is highly flawed, it has severe 4mss (4 moveslot syndrome, meaning it can't fit everything it wants to answer everything) where'd it wants to run court change, pyro/flare blitz, Wisp, Uturn, Sucker, Gunk, etc... but can only choose something specific. It's low defenses also don't help it so as a whole the Pokemon is not problematic in AAA.
It should be mentioned that Cinderace’s main role is not as a breaker (which would be bad as Giagantic said) but as a fast pivot with good defensive utility and Court Change being a fantastic tool against cheese archetypes like Webs and Screens (to a lesser extent). Cinderace doesn’t fit in a lot of structures but can be good if built around properly