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Alphabet Cup

So, it has one shaky and pretty unviable (I never heard of AV Clefable before, only Lefties and LO) counter that leaves the matchup with less than 80% of its HP.
That's quite broken. But we won't have to worry for if we implement Yayz's proposal, which is starting to look better and better.

252+ Atk Poochyena Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Swoobat: 270-320 (97.8 - 115.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Sucker Punch > Swoobat for all time. Poochyena can do it, so actual viable Pokemon will end it indefinitely. If rocks are up, Sash is useless on Swoobat and priority wrecks it. White Herb Swoobat has a similar problem.
Also, hit it for one turn and take a massive chunk from it, allowing it to be easily revenged with priority. Don't give it a free turn.

0 Atk Shuckle Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Swoobat: 84-102 (30.4 - 36.9%) -- 54.3% chance to 3HKO

Yeah, Shuckle takes 30% from it with Stone Edge, with no investment. Swoobat is more than a little frail. Literally no matter what you have in, toss an attack at Swoobat. Unless it's a Fighting move, sure you'll be fine.

Yes, this thing boosts to hell in one turn. But priority makes it die REALLY fast.

Edit: Okay having just read what Salt the Flesh has posted I say Swoobat 2gud
 
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How to beat Sucker Punch with Swoobat: Spore. Spore is another thing Swoobat has access to, and putting something to sleep that tries to Sucker Punch you then boosting to hell makes it a bitch to face. Sure, you become walled by Sableye/Spiritomb, but they should be removed before attempting to sweep. Removing a sweeper's checks/counters before sweeping isn't a new concept.
 
Another option that Swoobat can run to beat Sucker Punch is Substitute. Spore is really good, but fails after you put one of the opponent's pokemon to sleep. Substitute, however, doesn't have this problem. Spore is probably generally better, but Substitute is an option for those who already have a sleep inducer on the team and still want to dodge Sucker Punch effectively.
 
Swoobat can also Sucker Punch potential Sucker Punchers from that +4 Attack stat. He OP.
Seriously, I'm not even sure S in general needs suspecting, it's this little nightmare that is an issue. Unless you're packing Ice Shard, Talonflame-shaped priority, or heavily clever Sucker Punch shenanigans, this can be a nightmare. Spore Sableye? Playable, yet annoying. Every other Shell Smasher? Yeah I can deal with this I suppose. Something that comes damn near to one-shotting the heaviest special wall the game can provide after a single boost? Yeeeeeah, I'm not sure.

If anyone can find me a few more hideously broken users of the S moves, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I'm leaning towards doing a Swoobat suspect than an S suspect in general.

Something completely irrelevant to S shenanigans: Ditto.
Yeah, Ditto.

Ditto @ Quick Powder
Ability: Limber
Jolly Nature, 252Spe/252HP/4Atk
-Dark Void
-Transform
-Defog
-Discharge

Ditto reaches a respectable 428 Speed after Quick Powder. This is equivalent to a scarf max speed base 81, or a max speed base 146. A reminder now that Ditto has base 48 Speed and freedom of move choice.
Getting pseudo-priority with that hideously high speed, Ditto can and will mess you up with Dark Void. It can clear away hazards (S mons again! Gah), it can cause parahax with Discharge... I like this blob. Even if it's terrible offensively... and defensively... it can support with Dark Void and that's what I want.
 
In all honesty, I haven't actually played the meta yet;Joim's Lab always seems to be barren whenever I'm on. Still, I think it's pretty safe to say that just Quickbanning Swoobat then putting some kind of restriction on S moves is the best approach. Personally, I'm more in favor of the Single-S-Move-per-mon Proposal, but I could see the merit of Yayz' proposal.

On a totally different note, I'd like to point out a potential threat that I wanted to try out:

Aegislash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SAtk / 12 Spd
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Aeroblast
- Aurora Beam
- Aura Sphere

Max SpAtk and Modest for as much power as possible, while 12 speed outruns neutral-nature uninvested Ttar, letting you 2HKO even Max/Max Assault Vest variants. The rest is dumped in HP for extra bulk in shield form and so that Aegislash can still perform its usual pivot duties. The only things that can safely switch into this guy's monstrous 657 SpAtk after specs are pink blobs and Mandibuzz, all of which still take quite a dent from their respective coverage move.
 
How about a ban on Letter-Acquired Boosting Moves + Simple?

This neuters Swoobat, and prevents something from emerging in its place.

Something else should be done; maybe ban Spore + Shell Smash?
 
Expulso: Both of those options seem needlessly complicated, and if we need to, we can just outright ban certain pokemon that we find OP after swoobat, or even revisit the Letter-S policy in the future if we need to.
 
Another option would be to straight-up ban Shell Smash alone, except on 'mons who had it to begin with. Or ban general boosting moves except those a 'mon previously had.

I wouldn't like that, because then it'd be much less fun, and moves such as Sacred Fire will still be on many S-mons. I stand by my first suggestion, especially with the positive feedback it received.
 
Ditto @ Quick Powder
Ability: Limber
Jolly Nature, 252Spe/252HP/4Atk
-Dark Void
-Transform
-Defog
-Discharge

Destiny Bond is also an option on Ditto due to his blazing fast speed.

As for the S Letters, I feel that we should just Swoobat and maybe Slaking, although Slaking is definitely debatable.
 
Slaking doesn't seem that broken. After all, whether it's offensive or defensive, it has no choice but to spend its first turn using Skill Swap. There's not much you can do to stop that, but it's stilll predictable and gives the opponent one free turn. Also, it has to do it every time it switches out. But it is still really powerful, so it may well be broken.

Otherwise, Sableye seems pretty amazing. Priority Spore + SR anyone?

In all honesty, I haven't actually played the meta yet;Joim's Lab always seems to be barren whenever I'm on.
Same for me. I've got a team ready but I'm literally the only one on there.
 
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Shengeki no Swoobat (AKA Attack on Swoobat (AAKA Swoobat Ban Vote))

640px-Swoobat_Anime.png

"On that day, Alphabet Cup received a grim reminder..."

I never, never, never thought Swoobat would have to be suspected, ever. The analyses I've seen recently simply prove something must be done. Swoobat is breaking down walls and needs to be stopped. However, they have one weak point: the back of the neck they are almost powerless against priority. If Swoobat has a chance to set up, there is no telling what he can do.

Actually, there is some telling. We have a calc.
+4 252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 295-348 (66.4 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This is a RESIST. I'm sorry. But what.)

+4 252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Regice: 283-334 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Its Stored Power even ends Asaault Vest Regice. Yeah. (Granted, it can use Secret Sword in this case to nab a clean 1HKO always...)

+4 252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 459-540 (65.1 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is max SpDef Chansey, the bulkiest thing in the game (iirc). It takes a huge chunk from one blast. Again, Secret Sword 1HKOs always.

Studying the above calcs, and with the prior knowledge that this Swoobat carries Stored Power and Secret Sword, the only safe switchin options are limited to;
-Sableye
-Spiritomb
-Max Defense Drapion
-Max Defense Malamar
-Eren Jaeger
(I'll stop making SnK jokes now)

I could find precious little else. Malamar and Drapion are shaky if predicted, as they cannot take two Secret Swords. It's safe to say, though, not many of these will be your top choice on a team.
Oh and Swoobat has Spore. Nightie-night, everything except Sableye who needs to Spore it itself. But if you haven't removed Sableye or Spiritomb before sweeping with Swoobat you crazy.

So... How do we take it down? Priority. It's safe to say that Swoobat is as frail as a Ming vase. However, that doesn't make taking it down any easy task. Only a few things can definitively smash it:

-Banded Talonflame
-Banded Mamoswine's Ice Shard
-Bullet Punch Banded Scizor
-Sucker Punch from most offensive mons (get lucky)

This is pretty much all I could find to 1HKO it at +0 Defenses. If Rocks are up, things are easier. And if it used Sash, you have -2 defenses, which means basically any priority destroy it. We aren't considering, however, the fact it can run 252Def/252+SpA and be fine, it's got great speed as it is. Or Reflect support.

Other ways of neutering it include:
-Topsy-Turvy Thundurus/Tornadus
-Haze Murkrow
-Power Swap Purrloin
-Scarf Imposter Ditto

But that's about it (off the top of my head, maybe there's better out there?)


With all this considered, here is a final quick analysis of the bat.
Pros:
-With Simple, Swoobat's Shell Smash gives it shocking tripled Attack, Special Attack, and Speed.
-Swoobat's 390 BP (after STAB) Stored Power, off tripled Base 77 Special Attack, is strong enough to, at most, 1HKO or 2HKO anything in the metagame which isn't Dark.
-For everything Dark, there's Secret Sword-- only defensive Malamar and Drapion take it relatively well, and they are still 2HKOed.
-Spore allows it to shut down anything attempting to use Sucker Punch, as well as punishing threats such as Sableye and Spiritomb, who usually wall it.

Cons:
-Frail. Just as it can 2HKO anything, anything can effortlessly 2HKO or 1HKO it back.
-Attacking it as it Shell Smashes will leave enough of a dent in it to be easily revenge killed.
-Priority destroys the bat, provided it isn't Sucker Punch which it can play around.
-Its two item choices are White Herb and Focus Sash. One leaves it with pathetic defenses after a Smash while the other can leave Swoobat open to a 1HKO.

Having considered all this, it is time to vote! To vote, reply to the thread with one of the following options in bold:

Swoobers (Swoobat is raised to Alphabet Cup Ubers, banning it from standard Alphabet Cup.)
No Bat-Ban (Swoobat remains in standard Alphabet Cup.)

Voting closes on Sunday 9th Feb, 11pm GMT (roughly three days from now). Majority rules.
 
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Remember that a Pokemon is banned if it is deemed too centralizing. If you do not carry a check (I say check because NOTHING in the game is better than 2HKO'd), you will lose. Granted, he loses to priority. But who do you switch in?

+4 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 372-438 (108.1 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ok, let's try an incredibly specific (centralizing) specially defensive set.
+4 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 283-333 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm alive, that's a bit better. What about with Assault Vest?
+4 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Scizor: 189-222 (54.9 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That doesn't help. Ok, suppose you do switch in without dying. What happens?

4+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swoobat: 144-171 (52.3 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is if Swoobat carries a White Herb and patches its defenses after smashing. If it doesn't have that, then it's down for the count. Unless it has Focus Sash (which it probably will).

4+ Atk Technician Scizor Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swoobat: 192-228 (69.8 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So nobody tells me I'm an idiot for not using S-Priority.

You could also use Weavile and Ice Shard, but if it predicts with Sacred Sword, you're dead.

You need at worst two priority users to stop this monster, which means you traded two for one.

I think that Swoobat is too centralizing and requires far too specific of shaky counters to be defeated. I vote ban.

I'm so involved with this discussion and haven't even played a single OM. I'm weird...
 
I'm also for banning Swoobat. This shit is worst than Shell Smash Birabel in STABmons imo.
 
Ban that Bat. Fast, strong, and can still dispatch just about anything that threatens it with spore. Besides, that S-slot can be used for more interesting things than just another sweeper that can kill the entire meta after a single boost.
 
I think it's pretty bad if you're forced to run Talonflame/Mamoswine/Thundurus/Tornadus/Murkrow just to beat this dumbass. Might as well get him out of the way, and then we can move on to more interesting options.

swooberz 4 lyfe

also let's just not forget the issues av regice (no recovery) and specially defensive chansey (dat def) have.
 
Ban it. Sucker Punch isn't really that good of a counter because it can just use Substitute or Spore, at the risk of not being able to get past Sableye and Spiritomb. Really, Sucker Punch Spiritomb (or Sableye lol) is its only true counter, and if it has Focus Sash, it can just switch out, let something else get rid of hazards, come back in once Spiritomb is gone, and continue to destroy everything. Same for Topsy-Turvy Thundurus : it can just switch out. I've 6-0'd a lot of teams with Sash Lead Cloyster alone, and I can't even begin to imagine how easy it would be to do so with Swoobat
This isn't really relevant, but you forgot Physically Defensive Mandibuzz in the list of Pokemon who don't get 2HKO'd by it, not that it can do much in return.

I think we should probably look at the Shell Smash/Stored Power combo in general, particularly on Sigilyph. Look at this calc :
+2 252 SpA Sigilyph Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 174-206 (52 - 61.6%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Not nearly as impressive as what Swoobat can do, but still pretty great.

Also, Slowbro can outspeed Jolly Terrakion after one Shell Smash and wreck it with Stored Power, not that it would need to. That's just hilarious.

Edit : Starmie. Shell Smash Stored Power Starmie. This looks great.
 
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Shell Smash White Herb Stored Power Unburden Slurpuff looks fun; +2/+2/+4 almost instantaneously.
 
Shell Smash White Herb Stored Power Unburden Slurpuff looks fun; +2/+2/+4 almost instantaneously.
That amount of speed just seems unnecessary. What exactly are you trying to outspeed, Deoxys-Speed after an Agility boost?

In all seriousness, that looks pretty great, and I can't believe I missed it. Shell Smash / Dazzling Gleam / Secret Sword / Stored Power seems pretty optimal. Maybe even throw Play Rough in there if you choose to invest in Attack to go mixed, but you should probably only invest in SpA and HP since Secret Sword takes care of the blobs. No need to give it any Speed EVs whatsoever, since it already outspeeds Choice Scarf Timid Max Speed Deoxys anyway. Bullet Punch weakness isn't very helpful, but it does resist both Sucker Punch and Mach Punch, so it's not all bad. And it can deal with Spiritomb and Sableye really well.

Wow, this thing is starting to look amazing! The only thing that could make it better is if Unburden boosts actually counted as boosts, which would bring Stored Power to 220 BP. I'm definitely replacing it with Swoobat, since there's no way that thing isn't getting banned.
Now, if only I could get an actual battle...
 
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Swoobers-- I was conviced it deserved a ban after running the calcs to find it can 2HKO anything that isn't outright immune to it.

Also, Albacore: Sigilyph also has Magic Guard and Cosmic Power (boosting SP to 620 Base Power) to separate itself from Swoobat. Not to mention, it has the bulk to set up multiple Cosmic Power boosts, unlike Swoobat which has to go either Sash or White Herb to be able to sweep.

+6 4 SpA Sigilyph Stored Power (620 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 1272-1497 (180.6 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 4 SpA Sigilyph Stored Power (620 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 819-964 (184.4 - 217.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 4 SpA Sigilyph Stored Power (620 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 702-826 (230.9 - 271.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 4 SpA Sigilyph Stored Power (620 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Steel: 867-1021 (195.7 - 230.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Oh, and for the AV Clefable set mentioned earlier:

4 SpA Sigilyph Stored Power (620 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Clefable: 352-415 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
 
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Shell Smash White Herb Stored Power Unburden Slurpuff looks fun; +2/+2/+4 almost instantaneously.

Actually, Unburden doubles Speed, so it's effectively +6

+2 = 2 x 2 = 4, meaning you outspeed everything without needing to invest in Speed (well, at least effectively go mixed)

Also, BAN
 
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