my fear is that Flapple may just be the only viable F user to use Flower Trick (with STAB bonus). Gyarados, Apmharos, and Haxorus learn it too, but only Ampharos likes it since it’s good ground coverage
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Metagame Alphabet Cup
- Thread starter Eli
- Start date
Maybe Flareon too…? Its defenses are alright….
I wouldn't call Azumarill completely helpless against Toxapex, first of all +6 Magical Torque is a roll to kill spdef pex from full which I often run on balance teams. I've also been completely bopped by +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 310-365 (102.3 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO before which is completely demoralizing but overall I agree that Azumarill has too much 4MSS and is too shut down by Dondozo and common defensive threats depending on the moves its running to be any good.
This is all really weird to me, I feel like the fact that Ninetales even has the chance to 2HKO phys def Toxapex with a resisted move just proves how powerful it is, but you're talking about it as if it's a downside. Ninetales doesn't really need to rely on its coverage when its so powerful. It's much easier for it to take out a phys def Toxapex without having to predict and losing a chunk of its HP to Volt Tackle, needing only minimal chip to make it a 2HKO, as opposed to Volcanion that needs to lock into exploitable moves (EQ or Volt Tackle).
Volcanion's main advantages over Ninetales are its better coverage that lets it pick on certain Fire resists if it predicts right, like Skeledirge and Tyranitar, and an ability to contribute defensively to a team with its greater physical bulk and Water immunity. It also has the ability to go mixed to threaten certain would-be checks, and has the very potent Victory Dance set which is a strong wincon. Volcanion is a much better mon than Ninetales overall in this format. It's one of the most important offensive threats to account for in teambuilding.
Ninetales has a V-create that's about 20% stronger than Volcanion's, which makes a difference in turning many 3HKOs into 2HKOs against defensive mons, and certain 2HKOs into OHKOs against offensive Fire resists like Typhlosion-Hisui. It has a much better speed stat that lets it beat a lot of mid-speed threats, most relevantly Samurott-Hisui and Gholdengo. It is not as easily speed-crept by defensive mons, and it has a much better Swampert matchup since it can 2HKO it with Solar Beam. All of this makes Ninetales better on certain teams. It doesn't directly outclass nor is it outclassed by CB Volcanion, which is why I put them at the same spot on the Choice Band list.
The comparison to Slaking is also weird to me, besides the fact that they both use V-create. Slaking's a lot more prediction-reliant and always needs to switch out after attacking thanks to Truant. It requires crisp prediction and clicking Self-Destruct at precisely the right time, as opposed to Ninetales and Volcanion which just spam V-create. Overall I think it just plays a lot differently.
Hi, I have decided to make a VR based on my somewhat limited experience with this tier, this isn't supposed to be super comprehensive but rather all the mons that I have seen be really consistent and benefit a lot from the rules of this format. Some of them are speculation since I haven't seen them firsthand so I might be underrating a few mons here, but overall I would say this is mostly accurate and reflects well what I've noticed to be the most useful and strong:
S :goodra hisui:
S- :toxapex: :primarina:
A+ :ting lu::greninja: :archaludon: :cinderace:
A :iron valiant: :skeledirge: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :slaking: :salamence: :volcanion::great tusk:
A- :walking wake: :garchomp: :enamorus: :slowking galar: :conkeldurr: :pelipper: :haxorus: :thundurus::terapagos terastal:
B+ :hydreigon::tauros: :samurott hisui: :corviknight: :scizor: :virizion: :jolteon: :thundurus therian: :polteageist: :iron leaves: :landorus therian: :garganacl:
B :rillaboom: :gastrodon::tauros paldea aqua::serperior::tauros paldea blaze::typhlosion hisui: :iron hands::scream tail: :armarouge::mismagius: :dondozo: :maushold: :araquanid:
Other guys that don't benefit a lot from the format but are probably good just based on who they are and how they match up against the rest of the meta:
:ogerpon wellspring: :hydrapple: :roaring moon: :tornadus therian: :volcarona: :darkrai: :ogerpon hearthflame: :clodsire: :deoxys speed: :iron treads:
So, now with that laid out, before I move on to explaining some of the mons in this VR and their potential, I will preface it saying I'm number 2 on the ladder right now, and while that is a very good rank I don't feel like I have that much experience with the tier; this ladder is very slow and it's a bit hard to find matches, let alone matches with experienced players, which I find to be a huge shame because I like this tier way more than a good chunk of the permanent OMs, so this will hopefully spark a bit of motivation for people to try and experiment in this tier since I think there's huge potential and it's very fun. The meta is very decentralized with the exception of a few mons which make a lot of the matches feel a bit all over the place and hard to try to figure out what's good and what's not, which can be a good thing since a lot of pokemon get to shine, but also can make it harder for people getting into the tier and not knowing where to start and for experienced players to not really see it as a legitimate serious format. So I decided to make this personal VR as a way to have an outline for stuff that at least I think are good and are underexplored even.
Explanations:
:goodra hisui: Hisuian Goodra: This is the clear winner of this format as it often tends to do in other OMs, recovery on Shore Up and Strength Sap, an strong attacking move in Gigaton Hammer which hits hard even without investment, a lot of hazard setting options, and just the overall insane bulk of this mon makes it clearly the best mon of this tier, for now at least. Its presence lowkey invalidates a lot of special attacking mons and it is by far the best answer to boomburst primarina which is another top tier, disrupts setup with Dragon Tail and racks up damage with the hazards, Knocks Off items left and right and just sits there being a big bitch. Best mon in my eyes for sure
:primarina: Primarina: Boomburst liquid voice, yep, that's it, that's the mon. The calcs on this thing are really stupid, most mons hit by it neutrally will just die, its presence makes balance teams pretty hard to use if they aren't relying on goodra, since in most cases even resists are taking over half, best way to deal with it is pressuring it offensively and pivoting around with your fat mons, but prim can really break through almost everything. The set I use and find to be the best is Boomburst, Calm Mind, Psystrike and Burning Bulwark. This thing getting Psystrike is half the reason it's so hard to counter, because if you want to wall it with your Toxapex, Blissey or Clodsire you have to be prepared for it to take 80+% or just be KO'd when prim is at +1. If hgoodra ever gets banned I think you will have to take this thing with it. This is not some unbeatable mon, just very strong and very oppressive.
Ok shorter sections for the next ones
:toxapex: Toxapex: I think it's slightly overrated but people value it a lot, teleport is just a huge game changer for it and single handedly makes it one of the safest mons to use, topsy turvy also being a very popular choice to stop setup mons. Mortal Spin, Trick Room, Mirror Coat, Thunder Wave, a lot of good options for it, solid
:ting lu: Ting Lu: it's Ting Lu but it can teleport, literally what else could you ask. Gets a lot of good options, trick room support, topsy turvy to stop setup, tidy up to clean hazards and even potentially sweeping on its own, I've seen a couple offensive Ting Lus and they are scary. Very good mon.
:greninja: Greninja: hot take, I think fast stab fleur cannon is stupid. Protean gren is a menace in this format, either specs or scarf it just gets a lot of good options and coverage with F, very good
:cinderace: Cinderace: haven't experienced it first hand but I've been told this mon is insane and I get why, it just has a LOT of options and all of them can beat different teams, with SD on top of that this is just a really unpredictable mon.
:skeledirge: Skeledirge: in my opinion the premier physical wall, just typing, bulk and the new access to strength sap plus potential pivoting option with chilly reception gives it a lot of utility.
:tyranitar: :excadrill: Sand: basically the reason I'm #2 on the ladder, with heat and damp rock being banned it makes sand the defacto best weather in this tier, and these two abuse the format a lot as well. Tyranitar gets a lot with Tidy Up, Precipe Blades, Parting Shot, it's a huge utility mon that can also fill it's old dragon dance role with Tidy Up but with better utility. Excadrill is just another example that fast encore is broken in gen 9, the almost perfect coverage with Diamond Storm makes it really hard to deal with, plus the constant speed boost of sand rush, it gets dragon ascent too if you find yourself struggling with grass types. Just a really good archetype with these two leading it
Won't go over every single one but here's a few things I would like to highlight
:conkeldurr: :ting lu: :toxapex: Trick Room is really strong in this format, the fact every T mon gets the combination of trick room + teleport just launches forward this playstyle's viability significantly.
:slaking: :volcanion: :virizion: Victory Dance isn't very widespread but some of the users who get it are among the best in this meta, made even better with the option of V-Create and Volt Tackle for these mons
:ogerpon hearthflame: :roaring moon: :volcarona: I find interesting that out of the normally banned mons in OU the only one I'm seeing get consistent play is Archaludon, I guess without tera these aren't that crazy but they are still very strong on their own merit and I would assume that with more play and better building these would end up seeing a lot of play.
:zamazenta: :gholdengo: :clefable: I find equally interesting that OU staples like these aren't seeing play at all because of the meta that Alphabet Cup has, Zama is never getting through Pex and Skeledirge, Ghold has no rapid spin or defog to block since most removal is done via Tidy Up, and many of the normally strong mons in OU just don't match up well into this tier nor get a lot of options from it which makes this tier pretty fresh and different from other metagames.
Closing thoughts
I think this tier is cool as hell, I want to see it grow and have OM warriors push it to the heights I know it can get. I'm more than happy to expand on any of the mons and placements I made in this VR so feel free to reply if you want explanation on any of them. Thanks for reading :glaceon:
S :goodra hisui:
S- :toxapex: :primarina:
A+ :ting lu::greninja: :archaludon: :cinderace:
A :iron valiant: :skeledirge: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :slaking: :salamence: :volcanion::great tusk:
A- :walking wake: :garchomp: :enamorus: :slowking galar: :conkeldurr: :pelipper: :haxorus: :thundurus::terapagos terastal:
B+ :hydreigon::tauros: :samurott hisui: :corviknight: :scizor: :virizion: :jolteon: :thundurus therian: :polteageist: :iron leaves: :landorus therian: :garganacl:
B :rillaboom: :gastrodon::tauros paldea aqua::serperior::tauros paldea blaze::typhlosion hisui: :iron hands::scream tail: :armarouge::mismagius: :dondozo: :maushold: :araquanid:
Other guys that don't benefit a lot from the format but are probably good just based on who they are and how they match up against the rest of the meta:
:ogerpon wellspring: :hydrapple: :roaring moon: :tornadus therian: :volcarona: :darkrai: :ogerpon hearthflame: :clodsire: :deoxys speed: :iron treads:
So, now with that laid out, before I move on to explaining some of the mons in this VR and their potential, I will preface it saying I'm number 2 on the ladder right now, and while that is a very good rank I don't feel like I have that much experience with the tier; this ladder is very slow and it's a bit hard to find matches, let alone matches with experienced players, which I find to be a huge shame because I like this tier way more than a good chunk of the permanent OMs, so this will hopefully spark a bit of motivation for people to try and experiment in this tier since I think there's huge potential and it's very fun. The meta is very decentralized with the exception of a few mons which make a lot of the matches feel a bit all over the place and hard to try to figure out what's good and what's not, which can be a good thing since a lot of pokemon get to shine, but also can make it harder for people getting into the tier and not knowing where to start and for experienced players to not really see it as a legitimate serious format. So I decided to make this personal VR as a way to have an outline for stuff that at least I think are good and are underexplored even.
Explanations:
:goodra hisui: Hisuian Goodra: This is the clear winner of this format as it often tends to do in other OMs, recovery on Shore Up and Strength Sap, an strong attacking move in Gigaton Hammer which hits hard even without investment, a lot of hazard setting options, and just the overall insane bulk of this mon makes it clearly the best mon of this tier, for now at least. Its presence lowkey invalidates a lot of special attacking mons and it is by far the best answer to boomburst primarina which is another top tier, disrupts setup with Dragon Tail and racks up damage with the hazards, Knocks Off items left and right and just sits there being a big bitch. Best mon in my eyes for sure
:primarina: Primarina: Boomburst liquid voice, yep, that's it, that's the mon. The calcs on this thing are really stupid, most mons hit by it neutrally will just die, its presence makes balance teams pretty hard to use if they aren't relying on goodra, since in most cases even resists are taking over half, best way to deal with it is pressuring it offensively and pivoting around with your fat mons, but prim can really break through almost everything. The set I use and find to be the best is Boomburst, Calm Mind, Psystrike and Burning Bulwark. This thing getting Psystrike is half the reason it's so hard to counter, because if you want to wall it with your Toxapex, Blissey or Clodsire you have to be prepared for it to take 80+% or just be KO'd when prim is at +1. If hgoodra ever gets banned I think you will have to take this thing with it. This is not some unbeatable mon, just very strong and very oppressive.
Ok shorter sections for the next ones
:toxapex: Toxapex: I think it's slightly overrated but people value it a lot, teleport is just a huge game changer for it and single handedly makes it one of the safest mons to use, topsy turvy also being a very popular choice to stop setup mons. Mortal Spin, Trick Room, Mirror Coat, Thunder Wave, a lot of good options for it, solid
:ting lu: Ting Lu: it's Ting Lu but it can teleport, literally what else could you ask. Gets a lot of good options, trick room support, topsy turvy to stop setup, tidy up to clean hazards and even potentially sweeping on its own, I've seen a couple offensive Ting Lus and they are scary. Very good mon.
:greninja: Greninja: hot take, I think fast stab fleur cannon is stupid. Protean gren is a menace in this format, either specs or scarf it just gets a lot of good options and coverage with F, very good
:cinderace: Cinderace: haven't experienced it first hand but I've been told this mon is insane and I get why, it just has a LOT of options and all of them can beat different teams, with SD on top of that this is just a really unpredictable mon.
:skeledirge: Skeledirge: in my opinion the premier physical wall, just typing, bulk and the new access to strength sap plus potential pivoting option with chilly reception gives it a lot of utility.
:tyranitar: :excadrill: Sand: basically the reason I'm #2 on the ladder, with heat and damp rock being banned it makes sand the defacto best weather in this tier, and these two abuse the format a lot as well. Tyranitar gets a lot with Tidy Up, Precipe Blades, Parting Shot, it's a huge utility mon that can also fill it's old dragon dance role with Tidy Up but with better utility. Excadrill is just another example that fast encore is broken in gen 9, the almost perfect coverage with Diamond Storm makes it really hard to deal with, plus the constant speed boost of sand rush, it gets dragon ascent too if you find yourself struggling with grass types. Just a really good archetype with these two leading it
Won't go over every single one but here's a few things I would like to highlight
:conkeldurr: :ting lu: :toxapex: Trick Room is really strong in this format, the fact every T mon gets the combination of trick room + teleport just launches forward this playstyle's viability significantly.
:slaking: :volcanion: :virizion: Victory Dance isn't very widespread but some of the users who get it are among the best in this meta, made even better with the option of V-Create and Volt Tackle for these mons
:ogerpon hearthflame: :roaring moon: :volcarona: I find interesting that out of the normally banned mons in OU the only one I'm seeing get consistent play is Archaludon, I guess without tera these aren't that crazy but they are still very strong on their own merit and I would assume that with more play and better building these would end up seeing a lot of play.
:zamazenta: :gholdengo: :clefable: I find equally interesting that OU staples like these aren't seeing play at all because of the meta that Alphabet Cup has, Zama is never getting through Pex and Skeledirge, Ghold has no rapid spin or defog to block since most removal is done via Tidy Up, and many of the normally strong mons in OU just don't match up well into this tier nor get a lot of options from it which makes this tier pretty fresh and different from other metagames.
Closing thoughts
I think this tier is cool as hell, I want to see it grow and have OM warriors push it to the heights I know it can get. I'm more than happy to expand on any of the mons and placements I made in this VR so feel free to reply if you want explanation on any of them. Thanks for reading :glaceon:
Tbf, about the Slaking part, Slaking can just use a Skill Swap Set. After one or two Victory Dances, it can sweep with Facade, even better if it gets burned.
A 23.4% chance to 2HKO is not exactly an upside and V-create can be exploited. Volcanion and the various Dragons (Salamence, Haxorus, Garchomp) can check Adamant Ninetales and threaten sweeps back and Ninetales' low base speed, bulk, and weakness to hazards means that it cannot switch in to the majority of attackers and safely fire off a V-create. Earthquake and Volt Tackle are not very exploitable moves, and this is only on the Choice Banded set. The mixed sets and Victory Dance provide much more unpredictability than a measly Ninetales does.
Gholdengo is not staying in on Volcanion or Ninetales unless the opponent is sacrificing it, and Samurott-Hisui can easily OHKO Ninetales if it is still holding its Focus Sash. Also 252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 127-151 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO is massive chip damage.
Isn't Ninetales forced to switch out of any matchup after attacking as well due to the speed and defense drop from V-create and/or being locked into Solar Beam? Choice Banded Slaking is not using Self-Destruct for the majority of the game and it can easily use Knock Off, V-create, and Earthquake to massively chip down the opponent's defensive walls or OHKO almost any offensive "check" that believes it's the Skill Swap set. I fail to see how Ninetales is not just as if not more prediction reliant than both Slaking and Volcanion due to it almost being forced to use V-create the entire time besides against Swampert, which it can't even OHKO 0 SpA Ninetales Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
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Ninetales is literal shit after a V-create not only that, it has to worry about coming in too. Unless we have a mon with Tidy Up, Rapid Spin, or Defog to support it.
Wait i’m sorry i forgot to specify that this is Choice Band Ninetales we’re talking about. Also im very concerned about why we’re chancing Azumarill on TOXAPEX of all mons when it 1. can’t OHKO it, 2. can get crippled by Pex’s Topsy Turvy and get statused as punishment 3. can switch OUT on it in the first place..? readytolose
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Love that we're seeing players come out with material for the tier's resources, we desperately need some to really tap into the format's potential. Everyone's VR is going to have some radical changes between editions because what each of us sees in the ladder is different and we haven't gotten the opportunity to test things out in an organied tournament, but it's a good shout when there's general agreement in the majority of mons. I can't form a complete VR on my own because it would just require a lot of theorizing about the format, but i'd like to present some views i have.
:Cinderace:: S-
I think Cinderace has the potential to be a defining staple of the format (that is, if it doesn't reach broken status). Versatility, good coverage, ability to serve in both bulkier and more offensive playstyles. It can do a lot in the builder and you must be wary of it anywhere, so I wouldn't hesitate to place it around Primarina.
:Enamorus:: A+
I've said it repeatedly but in my consideration Enamorus is a premier wallbreaker and win condition in this format. Access to Electro Shot/Drift and Esper Wing makes it significantly more potent, and despite having its liabilities, a respectable team should have a way to get around it or threaten it with some sort of counterplay (AV Iron Crown, Bullet Punch, SpDef Hoodra, hell just put Air Balloon on your poison). Way too insane to be placed any lower to me.
:Garchomp:: A
Garchomp is as good or better than Salamence, from my games with it I can attest that it's a super reliable Choice Band breaker that has little reliable answers. Corviknight is not as good as you'd think because Fire Fang does about 35%, so if you take two rounds of rocks and don't recover you're as good as dead, and the difficult decisions (ie. do you Glaive Rush or Earthquake when there's a Primarina and a Flygon (yeah this guy sucks don't use him)) can be avoided by just using Gigaton Hammer. Definitely up there.
:Moltres-Galar:: B
Hyper Offense has a chokehold on the format, or at least that's how i see it, and Moltres-G is an asset that matches perfectly well with the pace of some of the less agressive HOs because of Milk Drink. Activating Berserk multiple times throughout a match is often overlooked, but can net differences in its playability. Definitely not a big deal but worth some recognition.
Spiritomb should probably be around the B ranks, decent typing and bulk are a good combination with its newly found access to recovery and hazards, Scream Tail could be in that range as well, it's not a game changer but it can be solid as support in some teams, Terrakion could be A- perfectly because despite its weakness to priority it can reliably perform as a Tidy Up user in Hyper Offense, and Iron Crown should be B+ because AV makes it a formidable glue. We'll get more opinions and develop the VR more as time goes on though, so none of these are quite definitive and there's still progress to make (like getting an actual organized tournament done whenever we can!! Can't express enough how that would define the playerbase).
Explaining my HAZARDLESS stall team.
https://pokepast.es/43cc28eb6e0904f5
Peak of around 1640, was #1 for most of this month, fell down to 1600 due to damn Serperior
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2426012162?p2
Team Summary
:corviknight:
Generic Corviknight. It uses Court Change instead of Defog/Rapid Spin so Gholdengo doesn't infinitely stack hazards. Court Change also ruins HO teams running Samurott-Hisui trying to get up early hazards. Rocky Helmet is for Maushold/Toucannon.
:toxapex:
Generic Toxapex. Haze is to stop Substitute setup sweepers.
:quagsire:
I use Quagsire instead of Skeledirge for a few key reasons. Quagsire isn't weak to Ground or Dark, resists Stealth Rock, and can still burn opponents with Will-o-Wisp. Ice Beam is mainly for eliminating Flying Pokemon, Gliscor, and Air Balloons, although it could probably be replaced with a utility move.
:blissey:
Blissey is my main wall against Gholdengo and Torch Song Pokemon, since it can usually PP stall Torch Song Pokemon and then allow Goodra-Hisui to tank whatever special moves remain. Shadow Ball is to ensure that it can still deal damage to Gholdengo and Typhlosion-Hisui, and Corrosive Gas can easily surprise opponents switching physical attackers into Blissey.
:scream tail:
People keep sleeping on Scream Shackle™ and I have no idea why when this Pokemon has Spirit Shackled and Encored and Perish Songed so many of my opponents, with Covert Cloak catching callow Toxapexes that click Mortal Spin thinking it will cripple my Scream Shackle. Encore easily stops slower setup sweepers such as Adamant Bisharp, Coil Corviknight, Swords Dance Goodra-Hisui, etc.
:goodra-hisui:
Generic Goodra-Hisui.
Operating My Team
Whenever I play stall, I operate under the assumption that I must be prepared to sacrifice Pokemon to stop a sweep or eliminate a key attacker. Not every game is going to be an easy 6-0 with all of your stall Pokemon at 100% HP.
:toxapex: Toxapex operates as an overall wall to almost every physical attacker. You send it out (at full HP) against Samurott-Hisui, against Cinderace, against Greninja, etc. and just click Mortal Spin or Teleport out.
:corviknight: Corviknight checks Maushold/Toucannon and stops hazard stack teams by Court Changing. If you are getting choked by hazards, try to send out Corviknight safely (via Toxapex or a prediction switch on Blissey) so it can easily turn the tables on your opponent.
:goodra-hisui: Goodra-Hisui is just a generic wall that hopefully stops Primarina and spreads Burns to everything with Sacred Fire. Watch out for Burning Bulwark. Use Goodra-Hisui or Toxapex when facing weirder Pokemon like Meloetta and Latios.
:blissey: Blissey is a much tankier wall that prevents Torch Song Pokemon from sweeping with Haze. Corrosive Gas ensures it isn't extremely passive and Natural Cure allows it to switch into Toxapex (if you ever need to, no idea why you would).
:quagsire: Quagsire walls just about any setup sweeper that Toxapex or Corviknight can't or doesn't want to check (Salamence, Excadrill, Revavroom, etc) with Will-o-Wisp. Quagsire can live 3 Brave Birds from Salamence and tanks Glaive Rush from Garchomp at 100% HP, so allowing it to enter the game as much as possible is important. Quagsire can also sometimes wall Volt Switchers, although this is very questionable since Quagsire cannot take special hits and random Grass coverage always exists (Jolteon Energy Ball, Magnezone Matcha Gotcha).
:scream tail: Scream Tail is the GOAT. Kills almost any non-Ghost and non-Normal Pokemon with Spirit Shackle, Perish Song, Encore, and Strength Sap. If your opponent lacks proper pivoting, they are going to have a very rough time against Scream Tail. To operate Scream Tail properly, you mainly want it to enter against a setup sweeper (via Teleport Toxapex), use Encore, use Spirit Shackle, use Spirit Shackle, use Perish Song, use Encore, and then watch as they die to Perish Song. One important detail is that if the opposing Pokemon has a pivoting move and you do not want them to use it, DO NOT USE ENCORE OR PERISH SONG AFTER EACH OTHER. Doing this will result in the opposing Pokemon being free to move on the last turn of Perish Song (I think). If your opponent lacks pivoting moves whatsoever, though, you can just Perish and Encore in any order. Scream Tail can also somewhat wall setup sweepers with Strength Sap, which is notably important against Volcanion. Scream Tail's weird typing allows it to take neutral damage from most physical attacks, which is helpful when Toxapex and Corviknight share an Electric weakness.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2427919516 (tying with Iknowup)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2419544829
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2417852415 (goodbye Swampert)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2426012162?p2 (goodbye Goodra-Hisui)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2424440795 (fully special Volcanion almost drives me insane)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2419536665 (Trick Room, although recently Conk has been running Gunk Shot/Poison Jab)
Terrible Matchups
:ogerpon-hearthflame:
For Ogerpon-Hearthflame, you need to hope that it isn't Substitute and that you need to preserve Toxapex for it at all costs. After Toxapex comes in, you must Mortal Spin it immediately and play a prediction war as Ogerpon is slowly chipped from Poison.
:archaludon:
Preserve Quagsire against Archaludon. Earthquake is your only shot of defeating it (Quagsire gets 2HKOed anyways) since Goodra-Hisui and Blissey both drop to Body Press and Dynamax Cannon cannot be Encored by Scream Tail.
:flapple:
Both Choice Band and Dragon Dance Flapple are extremely terrifying, since its set of Flower Trick, Fusion Bolt, Flare Blitz, and Outrage can OHKO almost every Pokemon on my team.
:polteageist:
For Polteageist, immediately attack with whatever Pokemon you have on the field. This is to allow Quagsire to hopefully come in, live +2 252+ SpA Polteageist Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 277-326 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and fire back with a 0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist: 135-159 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. If you have Corviknight in, you probably lose unless you make ridiculous predictions.
:serperior:
Pray that the Serperior is physical. If not, then cry. Your only hope is to preserve Goodra-Hisui at all costs (not even allowing it to get paralyzed) and immediately switch it in when Serperior hits the field.
Screw this Pokemon, screw its Substitutes, screw its paralysis, screw Leaf Storm, screw Secret Sword
Serperior really out here thinking its Sceptile 2.0
:weezing-galar:
Weezing-Galar is only found on other stall structures, but it defeats my stall team with Knock and Will-o-Wisp chip and preventing Blissey and Toxapex from healing effectively.
:slaking:?
I don't know how my team fares against Choice Banded Slaking (Skill Swap Slaking is super easy to wall with Toxapex + Quagsire). I asked Wingullspammer69 and Iknowup to use my balance team against my stall team, but neither could operate Slaking properly. However, Banded Slaking destroyed Iknowup’s Primeape stall team twice.
https://pokepast.es/43cc28eb6e0904f5
Peak of around 1640, was #1 for most of this month, fell down to 1600 due to damn Serperior
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2426012162?p2
Team Summary
:corviknight:
Generic Corviknight. It uses Court Change instead of Defog/Rapid Spin so Gholdengo doesn't infinitely stack hazards. Court Change also ruins HO teams running Samurott-Hisui trying to get up early hazards. Rocky Helmet is for Maushold/Toucannon.
:toxapex:
Generic Toxapex. Haze is to stop Substitute setup sweepers.
:quagsire:
I use Quagsire instead of Skeledirge for a few key reasons. Quagsire isn't weak to Ground or Dark, resists Stealth Rock, and can still burn opponents with Will-o-Wisp. Ice Beam is mainly for eliminating Flying Pokemon, Gliscor, and Air Balloons, although it could probably be replaced with a utility move.
:blissey:
Blissey is my main wall against Gholdengo and Torch Song Pokemon, since it can usually PP stall Torch Song Pokemon and then allow Goodra-Hisui to tank whatever special moves remain. Shadow Ball is to ensure that it can still deal damage to Gholdengo and Typhlosion-Hisui, and Corrosive Gas can easily surprise opponents switching physical attackers into Blissey.
:scream tail:
People keep sleeping on Scream Shackle™ and I have no idea why when this Pokemon has Spirit Shackled and Encored and Perish Songed so many of my opponents, with Covert Cloak catching callow Toxapexes that click Mortal Spin thinking it will cripple my Scream Shackle. Encore easily stops slower setup sweepers such as Adamant Bisharp, Coil Corviknight, Swords Dance Goodra-Hisui, etc.
:goodra-hisui:
Generic Goodra-Hisui.
Operating My Team
Whenever I play stall, I operate under the assumption that I must be prepared to sacrifice Pokemon to stop a sweep or eliminate a key attacker. Not every game is going to be an easy 6-0 with all of your stall Pokemon at 100% HP.
:toxapex: Toxapex operates as an overall wall to almost every physical attacker. You send it out (at full HP) against Samurott-Hisui, against Cinderace, against Greninja, etc. and just click Mortal Spin or Teleport out.
:corviknight: Corviknight checks Maushold/Toucannon and stops hazard stack teams by Court Changing. If you are getting choked by hazards, try to send out Corviknight safely (via Toxapex or a prediction switch on Blissey) so it can easily turn the tables on your opponent.
:goodra-hisui: Goodra-Hisui is just a generic wall that hopefully stops Primarina and spreads Burns to everything with Sacred Fire. Watch out for Burning Bulwark. Use Goodra-Hisui or Toxapex when facing weirder Pokemon like Meloetta and Latios.
:blissey: Blissey is a much tankier wall that prevents Torch Song Pokemon from sweeping with Haze. Corrosive Gas ensures it isn't extremely passive and Natural Cure allows it to switch into Toxapex (if you ever need to, no idea why you would).
:quagsire: Quagsire walls just about any setup sweeper that Toxapex or Corviknight can't or doesn't want to check (Salamence, Excadrill, Revavroom, etc) with Will-o-Wisp. Quagsire can live 3 Brave Birds from Salamence and tanks Glaive Rush from Garchomp at 100% HP, so allowing it to enter the game as much as possible is important. Quagsire can also sometimes wall Volt Switchers, although this is very questionable since Quagsire cannot take special hits and random Grass coverage always exists (Jolteon Energy Ball, Magnezone Matcha Gotcha).
:scream tail: Scream Tail is the GOAT. Kills almost any non-Ghost and non-Normal Pokemon with Spirit Shackle, Perish Song, Encore, and Strength Sap. If your opponent lacks proper pivoting, they are going to have a very rough time against Scream Tail. To operate Scream Tail properly, you mainly want it to enter against a setup sweeper (via Teleport Toxapex), use Encore, use Spirit Shackle, use Spirit Shackle, use Perish Song, use Encore, and then watch as they die to Perish Song. One important detail is that if the opposing Pokemon has a pivoting move and you do not want them to use it, DO NOT USE ENCORE OR PERISH SONG AFTER EACH OTHER. Doing this will result in the opposing Pokemon being free to move on the last turn of Perish Song (I think). If your opponent lacks pivoting moves whatsoever, though, you can just Perish and Encore in any order. Scream Tail can also somewhat wall setup sweepers with Strength Sap, which is notably important against Volcanion. Scream Tail's weird typing allows it to take neutral damage from most physical attacks, which is helpful when Toxapex and Corviknight share an Electric weakness.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2427919516 (tying with Iknowup)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2419544829
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2417852415 (goodbye Swampert)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2426012162?p2 (goodbye Goodra-Hisui)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2424440795 (fully special Volcanion almost drives me insane)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2419536665 (Trick Room, although recently Conk has been running Gunk Shot/Poison Jab)
Terrible Matchups
:ogerpon-hearthflame:
For Ogerpon-Hearthflame, you need to hope that it isn't Substitute and that you need to preserve Toxapex for it at all costs. After Toxapex comes in, you must Mortal Spin it immediately and play a prediction war as Ogerpon is slowly chipped from Poison.
:archaludon:
Preserve Quagsire against Archaludon. Earthquake is your only shot of defeating it (Quagsire gets 2HKOed anyways) since Goodra-Hisui and Blissey both drop to Body Press and Dynamax Cannon cannot be Encored by Scream Tail.
:flapple:
Both Choice Band and Dragon Dance Flapple are extremely terrifying, since its set of Flower Trick, Fusion Bolt, Flare Blitz, and Outrage can OHKO almost every Pokemon on my team.
:polteageist:
For Polteageist, immediately attack with whatever Pokemon you have on the field. This is to allow Quagsire to hopefully come in, live +2 252+ SpA Polteageist Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 277-326 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and fire back with a 0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist: 135-159 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. If you have Corviknight in, you probably lose unless you make ridiculous predictions.
:serperior:
Pray that the Serperior is physical. If not, then cry. Your only hope is to preserve Goodra-Hisui at all costs (not even allowing it to get paralyzed) and immediately switch it in when Serperior hits the field.
Screw this Pokemon, screw its Substitutes, screw its paralysis, screw Leaf Storm, screw Secret Sword
Serperior really out here thinking its Sceptile 2.0
:weezing-galar:
Weezing-Galar is only found on other stall structures, but it defeats my stall team with Knock and Will-o-Wisp chip and preventing Blissey and Toxapex from healing effectively.
:slaking:?
I don't know how my team fares against Choice Banded Slaking (Skill Swap Slaking is super easy to wall with Toxapex + Quagsire). I asked Wingullspammer69 and Iknowup to use my balance team against my stall team, but neither could operate Slaking properly. However, Banded Slaking destroyed Iknowup’s Primeape stall team twice.
InkyDarkBird
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen9alphabetcup-2428695075
This team you made is actually so freaking GOOD. It covers a lot of anti stall issues and can actually stall out a lot of common threats. I did however take the blissey out and used Ice-type Judgement Jolteon for some offensive backbone. it still works really well though, and would definitely use it again.
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen9alphabetcup-2428695075
This team you made is actually so freaking GOOD. It covers a lot of anti stall issues and can actually stall out a lot of common threats. I did however take the blissey out and used Ice-type Judgement Jolteon for some offensive backbone. it still works really well though, and would definitely use it again.
Anyways, there's a pokemon I'd like to shout out, Araquanid. You're probably thinking, what does Araquanid get that makes it better as a web setter in this format where tons of great pokemon get webs? The answer is actually not much. However, it does get some cool new attacks, mainly Aqua Step and Aqua Jet. So, I've found some success using Choice Band Araquanid, here's an example set:
Araquanid @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Aqua Step
- Leech Life
- Sticky Web
It's EV'd to outspeed Enamorus at +2, and probably more importantly uninvested Corviknight, which it threatens a 2HKO on. For the final slot I went with Sticky Web, as my team has some medium-speed pokemon, namely Rillaboom (Unrelated, but I might talk about Rillaboom later, it gets some cool stuff) and Gholdengo after it's tricked its scarf. Another move I can see having some use is Drill Run, as it hits Toxapex and Hisuian Goodra for super effective damage, but you have to keep in mind that you're working with a base 70 attack stat, so even a specially defensive Toxapex has a small chance to get 2HKO'd: 252+ Atk Choice Band Araquanid Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 134-158 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO.
Other than that, I don't think other coverage moves work too well, as Water Bubble makes water moves really strong, making coverage quite redundant. However there are a few status moves that could be good, namely Dragon Dance and Agility. Araquanid is very slow, and these moves make it faster, and for Dragon Dance, stronger. Even at +1 or +2 it's being outsped by a decent chunk of the unboosted metagame, however Aqua Step can help with that, plus Araquanid is actually quite bulky, especially on the special side, and its defensive typing is solid. I'd like to see some experimentation, especially with Dragon Dance sets.
I didn't have a place to put this so did you know that Araquanid can tank an Enamorus Electro Drift with a tiny bit of HP investment? Crazy.
252 SpA Enamorus Electro Drift (133.3251953125 BP) vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 236-278 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Araquanid @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Aqua Step
- Leech Life
- Sticky Web
It's EV'd to outspeed Enamorus at +2, and probably more importantly uninvested Corviknight, which it threatens a 2HKO on. For the final slot I went with Sticky Web, as my team has some medium-speed pokemon, namely Rillaboom (Unrelated, but I might talk about Rillaboom later, it gets some cool stuff) and Gholdengo after it's tricked its scarf. Another move I can see having some use is Drill Run, as it hits Toxapex and Hisuian Goodra for super effective damage, but you have to keep in mind that you're working with a base 70 attack stat, so even a specially defensive Toxapex has a small chance to get 2HKO'd: 252+ Atk Choice Band Araquanid Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 134-158 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO.
Other than that, I don't think other coverage moves work too well, as Water Bubble makes water moves really strong, making coverage quite redundant. However there are a few status moves that could be good, namely Dragon Dance and Agility. Araquanid is very slow, and these moves make it faster, and for Dragon Dance, stronger. Even at +1 or +2 it's being outsped by a decent chunk of the unboosted metagame, however Aqua Step can help with that, plus Araquanid is actually quite bulky, especially on the special side, and its defensive typing is solid. I'd like to see some experimentation, especially with Dragon Dance sets.
I didn't have a place to put this so did you know that Araquanid can tank an Enamorus Electro Drift with a tiny bit of HP investment? Crazy.
252 SpA Enamorus Electro Drift (133.3251953125 BP) vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 236-278 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ok I’ve been playing this meta since Day 1 and I think Serperior is just doing what Sceptile was doin all over again but somehow even scarier, let’s break this guy down
:Serperior:
Maybe I didn’t realise this dude’s stupidity before bcz everyone and I say everyone is obsessed with that fraud Superpower set with that Spin Out Garbage, just Utter Trash that one btw, takes too long to get going and still very easy to punish and stop
The special set with Leaf Storm, a water move (your choice between Scald and Steam Eruption) and Secret Sword where the last move can be anything but preferably Substitute to stop Skillissue attempts from :Thundurus: is so damn hard to stop if u don’t have a faster mon that can reasonably scratch it for dmg, and while the tier has some in :Cinderace: , :Greninja: , :Iron Valiant: ,let’s also remember that a TON of teams are webs and these players often times do not care bout the :Serperior: in the back, which just makes the late game Serperior even more impossible to stop
The meta special defence is mostly limited to Goodra and Blissey which would normally be able to deal with it but Secret Sword throws a huge wrench in this, Even if u are able to tank one and haze it or phaze it out, your special wall is now too battered to take on the other special threats like Thundurus-T
The tiers most common priority move in Thunderclap is laughable to Serperior and it can play around the few Sucker Punches with Sub, Steam Eruption destroys the few fire types like Moltres that would normally hard wall Serperior, the only real mon that can answer this at all safely is Galarian Slowking which is not very common (heck I’ve only ever since it once), bcz it’s pretty outclassed as a special wall
Even if u have an Unaware Clodsire, it can’t really threaten Sub variants without Poison Jab and it will just get burned by the water move and become useless anyways
Bulky Gholdengo can’t switch into Leaf Storm with the risk of dying to +2 Steam Eruption or even surprise Sandsear Storm
Corvinight will make u feel comfortable for 2 seconds before it gets burned and becomes setup fodder
Skeledirge can kinda take it on, it’s 3HKOed by Steam Eruption but that’s assuming it’s full Hp and still has it’s boots and rocks are not up, and this is me talking bout the Spdef set, Physdef is way more common and it just gets 2HKOed
Toxapex…. what is Toxapex supposed to do? give it +6 SpA and a Sub, that’s what
I would like to know how the community feels bout Serperior bcz I’m currently Top 49 on the ladder with it and i’m yet to find a team that can realistically hard counter this mon, In my opinion u are far better off checking it offensively instead of defensively and ofc a lot of ppl are using the other trash set
:Serperior:
Maybe I didn’t realise this dude’s stupidity before bcz everyone and I say everyone is obsessed with that fraud Superpower set with that Spin Out Garbage, just Utter Trash that one btw, takes too long to get going and still very easy to punish and stop
The special set with Leaf Storm, a water move (your choice between Scald and Steam Eruption) and Secret Sword where the last move can be anything but preferably Substitute to stop Skillissue attempts from :Thundurus: is so damn hard to stop if u don’t have a faster mon that can reasonably scratch it for dmg, and while the tier has some in :Cinderace: , :Greninja: , :Iron Valiant: ,let’s also remember that a TON of teams are webs and these players often times do not care bout the :Serperior: in the back, which just makes the late game Serperior even more impossible to stop
The meta special defence is mostly limited to Goodra and Blissey which would normally be able to deal with it but Secret Sword throws a huge wrench in this, Even if u are able to tank one and haze it or phaze it out, your special wall is now too battered to take on the other special threats like Thundurus-T
The tiers most common priority move in Thunderclap is laughable to Serperior and it can play around the few Sucker Punches with Sub, Steam Eruption destroys the few fire types like Moltres that would normally hard wall Serperior, the only real mon that can answer this at all safely is Galarian Slowking which is not very common (heck I’ve only ever since it once), bcz it’s pretty outclassed as a special wall
Even if u have an Unaware Clodsire, it can’t really threaten Sub variants without Poison Jab and it will just get burned by the water move and become useless anyways
Bulky Gholdengo can’t switch into Leaf Storm with the risk of dying to +2 Steam Eruption or even surprise Sandsear Storm
Corvinight will make u feel comfortable for 2 seconds before it gets burned and becomes setup fodder
Skeledirge can kinda take it on, it’s 3HKOed by Steam Eruption but that’s assuming it’s full Hp and still has it’s boots and rocks are not up, and this is me talking bout the Spdef set, Physdef is way more common and it just gets 2HKOed
Toxapex…. what is Toxapex supposed to do? give it +6 SpA and a Sub, that’s what
I would like to know how the community feels bout Serperior bcz I’m currently Top 49 on the ladder with it and i’m yet to find a team that can realistically hard counter this mon, In my opinion u are far better off checking it offensively instead of defensively and ofc a lot of ppl are using the other trash set
I don't generally have much trouble with Serperior, I mostly use balance teams that do not run Hisui Goodra. There are a few different pivots that can come in on it.
:amoonguss: AV Amoonguss is one of my favourite pivots and it easily defeats most Serperior sets. It can fill a similar defensive role to Toxapex but it resists Electric and can run AV while still being able to pivot and it's less passive with its coverage. Even so it needs a little help sometimes to beat the format's electric types due to their coverage but it's still good. Being less preyed upon by Electric and Ground coverage that mons like Enamorus and Walking Wake run for Toxapex is solid.
:tornadus-therian: It's another great offensive pivot that comes in on Serperior fairly easily, outspeeds it, threatens it with a Flying move and regenerates off the damage. Otherwise it's a good mon with a few different potential sets (Tidy Up, NP, maybe Choiced or AV?). In general I am not really disappointed by Torn-T even though in some matchups all it does it knock and pivot out.
:slowking-galar: I'd say Slowking-galar is not bad at all. It has more competition (Toxapex and Amoonguss) so it's harder to fit on a team but it's still good. Spikes is probably the best move it gains, Future Sight is still good too even if Toxapex can sometimes play around it with Teleport. It's not as hard of a counter to Serperior due to some moves like Sandsear and Shadow Ball but it still can work. And as a general special defensive pivot it at least tanks hits from Jolteon, Thundurus-T, special Iron Valiant, and dissuades certain clicks by Primarina, Greninja, etc.
:cinderace::salamence::persian::greninja::latios: Some good offensive mons can revenge or set up on Serperior, a few like Latios and Salamence can even switch in sometimes.
:amoonguss: AV Amoonguss is one of my favourite pivots and it easily defeats most Serperior sets. It can fill a similar defensive role to Toxapex but it resists Electric and can run AV while still being able to pivot and it's less passive with its coverage. Even so it needs a little help sometimes to beat the format's electric types due to their coverage but it's still good. Being less preyed upon by Electric and Ground coverage that mons like Enamorus and Walking Wake run for Toxapex is solid.
:tornadus-therian: It's another great offensive pivot that comes in on Serperior fairly easily, outspeeds it, threatens it with a Flying move and regenerates off the damage. Otherwise it's a good mon with a few different potential sets (Tidy Up, NP, maybe Choiced or AV?). In general I am not really disappointed by Torn-T even though in some matchups all it does it knock and pivot out.
:slowking-galar: I'd say Slowking-galar is not bad at all. It has more competition (Toxapex and Amoonguss) so it's harder to fit on a team but it's still good. Spikes is probably the best move it gains, Future Sight is still good too even if Toxapex can sometimes play around it with Teleport. It's not as hard of a counter to Serperior due to some moves like Sandsear and Shadow Ball but it still can work. And as a general special defensive pivot it at least tanks hits from Jolteon, Thundurus-T, special Iron Valiant, and dissuades certain clicks by Primarina, Greninja, etc.
:cinderace::salamence::persian::greninja::latios: Some good offensive mons can revenge or set up on Serperior, a few like Latios and Salamence can even switch in sometimes.
This is by no means hate against this person, more-so a problem I have with this tier. I am confused as to why abilities like sand veil are allowed as well as items like bright powder. They are usually seen as uncompetitive and are usually banned in most tiers. Takes the fun out of what should be a fun metagame
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2429758225
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-2429758225
I made it to the top ten with this team: https://pokepast.es/ca8d8df695a9731a I'm not the best showdown player (I think my highest ELO across all tiers is for Alphabet Cup) , so I'm taking the win where I can. Choice Banded Araquanid in the rain hits hard. This team (or maybe just me) struggles against stall teams, so it is far from perfect. Feel free to take or edit, or let me know what changes you would add! Happy Friday :)
Attachments
Last day of ABC yet again, just wanna say that thank yall for having an actually balanced metagame and not allowing freakin flutter mane for whatever reason lol
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Moonblast / Flamethrower
- Moonlight
I just realized that Clefable can actually do the same thing that Cresselia can do with this archetype of a set. Sure it can die upon Taunt, but this set can become absolutely nuclear with help from proper allies such as Hisuian Goodra and in some cases Rocky Helmet Corviknight
This isn't even Alphabet Cup - that's just a regular Clefable set. (Although they usually would run bold max defence)
I know that….thats why I said CAN. I was just showing that Clef can with a bit of effort.
Yes, it very much can, especially considering the fact that after 1 Aqua Step it can be VERY threatening if not taken care of quickly. That alone is the main reason people love it so much, giving and taking just for the fun of it.
Time for me to actually build more things
Suicune should definetly be ranked, one of the best mixed walls with a ton of options(prob A or A- imo)