An Evasive Argument.

[teekay]

The thing about this is, the game is already overcentralized, but most people won't even consider banning the legendaries and 600-BST Pokémon that are causing it. "They have counters!" Yeah, everything has counters. But when you see almost every team being made with the same pool of 15 Pokémon, you know something's wrong. If it weren't for these overpowered Pokémon, we wouldn't have to build teams of counters at all. We could actually be creative with our movesets and actually use most of the fully-evolved Pokémon to create teams that work well together. This community has created a set of Pokémon and rules that encourage overcentralization, so please don't tell me about already having to fill your team with counters. You've brought it upon yourselves.

I agree with this. I don't really think bringing back double team is a solution though. I think most people do a poor job of articulating what is so annoying about DT, but at least in my case, this is what it is (or the best I can do at articulating it...):

A lot of people have suggested that it's silly to be annoyed by the increased luck factor of DT when luck is such a huge part of Pokemon in the first place. That's a fair point, we all know that luck plays a huge role in these battles. But I think there has been an enormous amount of exaggeration of just how big a role it plays; I don't think it's even 50%. The reason being that half the game has already been played just by creating your Pokemon's move sets and EV spreads. With the moves that are legal, everything is planned out very systematically. Stone edge will always hit 80% of the time for this much damage against this Pokemon with these EVs. Double team throws in a "wild card" factor that introduces a completely different kind of luck. It works against everything, with only a small amount of moves that counter it; other than that, everything becomes dependent on luck. And that is an awfully large portion of the game to turn over to luck. Not having DT means that the game is much more heavily focused on what you know will happen, rather than what might happen.

Yes, it's true, there are ways to counter it and you listed them. But in my opinion it would make less sense to go this route and more sense to go the route of readjusting the tier system, for the exact reason you mentioned: the game is too centralized. The way things are going right now, I really think that a tier between standard and uber is starting to develop, whether it is recognized or not.

But that's just my stupid opinion. The game has managed to remain fun even despite the centralization, so I don't think it's broken or anything, and reintroducing double team (on the condition it's still not allowed with baton pass) would not break it. I just think it would further move things in the wrong direction.

 

[ANinyMouse]

The way I see it, there are two solid ways to go about establishing metagame #4:

1. Allow everything at once. Slowly eliminate things as they begin to throw off balance. The result will be a new Standard and Uber tier to work with further.

2. Begin testing under new and exploritive methods of exclusion, working in an additive manner rather than a subtractive one. This will establish UU primarily, and... Yeah, I don't suggest this.

imo, just try everything and see what happens. Obviously, Mewtwo, Deoxys, Kyogre and Groudon are the definition of Uber tier, so they'd be among the first to leave.

 

[Footnote]

The way I see it, there are two solid ways to go about establishing metagame #4:

1. Allow everything at once. Slowly eliminate things as they begin to throw off balance. The result will be a new Standard and Uber tier to work with further.

2. Begin testing under new and exploritive methods of exclusion, working in an additive manner rather than a subtractive one. This will establish UU primarily, and... Yeah, I don't suggest this.

imo, just try everything and see what happens. Obviously, Mewtwo, Deoxys, Kyogre and Groudon are the definition of Uber tier, so they'd be among the first to leave.

I understand the methodology of Option 1, but with all respect, it'll probably get us exactly what we have right now, for the reasons listed in my last post. What we have right now is Look-Alike teams with the same 15 Pokémon.

 

[Phuquoph]

Regardless of which rules are in place, the game will always be centralized around the best Pokemon and strategies. It's the nature of the game that the best will always rise to the top.

If evasion is allowed, then the game will centralize around those that can use it well and those can counter it.

If the group of Pokemon that are likely to dominate DP are removed, their slightly less powerful counterparts will move up and they will dominate.

 

[Isotope]

I'm not suggesting that Double Team is the panacea to all our look-alike-team ills.

(And further long but great post)
quote]

Great post and very well written explaining what I was trying to say at 3am last night. And to the poster who earlier said that my quote on prediction/luck was "assanine" I did not say that it was factually luck, but rather that it could be viewed in that light (I do not view it as all luck, but luck is certainly part of prediction and anyone who says differently is a bit enamored of their brainpower and its role in pokemon). This becomes true in an even greater way because your opponent is trying to out predict you as well, so therefor you are making an educated guess against an educated guess. Unless you have many matches against this trainer for pattern recognition this really is at best no better than a 60ish percent chance to guess right. Which interestingly is the same percent as a 2X DT pokemon has to be hit.

 

[e4protector]

Allowing DT will increase Machamp use exponentially. Why? No Armor. This means Machamp's attacks can never miss, no matter which attacks they are. Complete nullification of Double Team.

Also whoever said prediction = luck has never played me. Yeah, I am known to hax sometimes. That's not prediction, that's just rock slide misses or Aero/Jolt hax or full paralysis. Prediction is knowing that your opponent should switch in <insert counter here> to <insert pokemon here> and choosing a different move that is super effective against said counter.

Like if I have my Zapdos out against an enemy Milotic and I know they have a Swampert on the team. They would likely bring in Swampert to block my (predicted) Thunderbolt. So I use HP Grass instead and OHKO Swampert.

That's how I play, that's how I win. And when I'm not thinking well I lose and it has nothing to do with luck (unless rock slide misses, full paralyze, and criticals decided the match)

 

[ANinyMouse]

I've never said that I disagree with your "no 600s, no legends" idea, because I don't. My only question, then, is "now what?" Do we add some back in later, or is that it? What about things like Entei and Registeel, who are anything but metagame-changing in their own rights?

As I see it, expanding the pool of viable Pokemon for a "Standard 2.0" involves limiting offense and enabling defense, with few exceptions. Think about that for a sec. On the most exsistential level, the battles will take longer than if we left things as they are (enabling offense).

Am I making any sense, here? I don't feel I'm being unreasonable.

 

[Isotope]

Allow me to raise another question if you will. The board is on fire with tier change/evasion/OHKO/etc. arguements, and the popular opinion seems to be "lets test everything and re-evaluate". While this sounds good I would like to see a concerted time frame and effort by the board in which this could happen. In other words give us the game and a month and then these ideas could be revisited perhaps?

My only concern is that (as happens in many comp. gaming communities) "test and revisit" inevitably becomes "leave on the vine to die". Are any of you seriously considering forming DT/OHKO teams to try? Anyone really trying to mix some of the "lower" ubers into gameplay to see how they stand up? Its almost as if pokemon has taken a Guilty Gear approach in leveling the playing field by making everyone broken.

 

[teekay]

1. Allow everything at once. Slowly eliminate things as they begin to throw off balance. The result will be a new Standard and Uber tier to work with further.

I actually really like this idea.

 

[Footnote]

Regardless of which rules are in place, the game will always be centralized around the best Pokemon and strategies. It's the nature of the game that the best will always rise to the top.

If evasion is allowed, then the game will centralize around those that can use it well and those can counter it.

If the group of Pokemon that are likely to dominate DP are removed, their slightly less powerful counterparts will move up and they will dominate.

This opinion assumes that there's a nice, logical ordering of Pokémon from best to worst. In my experience, this is in no way true. I've played in an environment without Legendaries and 600-BST Pokémon. Hercross, Starmie and Blissey (for example) may be powerful, but they don't 'dominate' in any sense of the word. You might take them into account when building a team, but you don't have to build your teams around them. Legendaries are a different story. They have no mitigating factors to offset their strength. That's why they're 'Legendaries'. So before you assume that all metagames must be centralized, actually try battling without these Pokémon. I'll be happy to battle you once D/P come out if you're willing to make a team using these rules.

Allowing DT will increase Machamp use exponentially. Why? No Armor. This means Machamp's attacks can never miss, no matter which attacks they are. Complete nullification of Double Team.

This brings up a good side question. Does No Guard actually cause all moves to never miss, or does it just raise base accuracy of all moves to 100% and allow you to hit Flying and Digging opponents? I'm not sure whether it's been tested with Double Team.

I've never said that I disagree with your "no 600s, no legends" idea, because I don't. My only question, then, is "now what?" Do we add some back in later, or is that it? What about things like Entei and Registeel, who are anything but metagame-changing in their own rights?

As I see it, expanding the pool of viable Pokemon for a "Standard 2.0" involves limiting offense and enabling defense, with few exceptions. Think about that for a sec. On the most exsistential level, the battles will take longer than if we left things as they are (enabling offense).

Am I making any sense, here? I don't feel I'm being unreasonable.

You're not being unreasonable at all. If we make a jump like the one I'm suggesting and have a 'Standard 2.0' (I like that nomenclature), then we can take steps from there. If most people want to try adding Entei or Registeel, let's try it. I'm not trying to be the heavy-handed, holier-than-thou know-it-all, here. In my opinion, Entei and Registeel will make a much bigger splash without all the other legendaries around, but I've been wrong before.

As for limiting offense and encouraging defense, that might have been a problem in Advance, but in D/P there are so many good offensive options that I don't see it being an issue. Some people will still use defensive strategies. If that really annoys you, there are now plenty of ways to counter it. Feint, Taunt (now that it lasts 2 to 4 turns), Heal Block, etc all screw up those strategies. So if you hate stalling, using those stall-blocking kinds of moves can be part of your style of play. Other people may not mind long, drawn-out battles, so they'll design their teams differently.

 

[Pokézoni]

Logic is definitely flawed around here...

The only reason why 60BP moves that always hit are worthless are because evasion abilities are not allowed... Rapid Spin and Quick Attack are prime examples already stated.

Double Team is learnable by everything... but the OU pogeys people are fearing have much better moves to use it on... Fearful of a DT Garchomp? Why? it's lost an important coverage move... meaning it's now weak to something.

Having 60BP moves on some pokemon would open up the field to a lot of pokemon that couldn't normally stand up to the overly expected 80-100BP attack on the switch in...

DP has the capability of being "open and new"... but if everything is going to be claused out before it even hits, then of course the metagame is going to be stale... just as the RMT threads with absolutely no consideration of DT or OHKOs are slowly becoming a short list of extremely OU pokemon.

 

[ANinyMouse]

TBH, I'm not sure what a "fair and balanced metagame" even entails anymore. As soon as you ban one thing, a chain reaction occurs and new things dominate. Pokemon is a game where SOMETHING has to dominate. There is no good place to stop.

I have no qualms with DT. It's a pretty dumb move, anyway.

 

[Revamparts]

i quite enjoy how the pro-dt side claims that the game is "open and new", as well as stale and repetitive

just something to think about

I think that means, "there are more moves and Pokemon this generation, but we're concerned there won't be a change in the moves and Pokemon used to show that."

 

[Footnote]

TBH, I'm not sure what a "fair and balanced metagame" even entails anymore. As soon as you ban one thing, a chain reaction occurs and new things dominate. Pokemon is a game where SOMETHING has to dominate. There is no good place to stop.

I have no qualms with DT. It's a pretty dumb move, anyway.

I know I sound like a naïve idealist here, but Pokémon really isn't a game where something has to dominate. If you play with the Pokémon set I'm talking about in Advance, you quickly come to the realization that you can't fill your team with powerful sweepers and expect to win most of the time. Generally you'll have a big defenisive weakness that's fairly easy to exploit. With D/P, it's looking like this is even more true. Now that so many Pokémon have so many move options, the playing field for non-legendaries has been leveled by a huge degree. It'll never be completely level, of course. But it's now leveled to the point that almost every fully-evolved Pokémon can have a useful place on a team in the Standard 2.0 tier.

I won't defend Farfetch'd, though. Some Pokémon just suck.

EDIT: In fact, I'll be concrete about this. Here's the complete list of (fully-evolved) Pokémon that I think wouldn't be viable even in Standard 2.0:

Farfetch'd
Unown
Delibird
Luvdisc

I claim that all others can have a useful place on either a Single Battle or Double Battle team. If you think I missed a Pokémon, call me on it. I'd be happy to tell you what it can do better than any other Pokémon.

 

[Synre]

In spite of being mostly pro Double Team there are two things in this topic that are driving me absolutely insane:

1) The bias is almost overwhelming. Yes, I realize you're trying to win an argument. To debate you need to at least look at your opponents argument, this topic feels a bit more like people ranting rather than people discussing something.

2) I can't help but notice that a majority of the people posting in this topic are new users and most of them have little to no real competitive battling experience. This combined with the above makes it sort of hard to take most of these arguments seriously...

also

I see it like a logic problem. Right now we have a set of rules and allowed Pokémon that we call 'Standard Play'. Let's call that set X. Somewhere we have a set of rules and allowed Pokémon that the most people will enjoy and find interesting. Let's call that set Y. The assumption around here is that once D/P starts, we'll be able to take our current set X and apply steps. One step might be banning Tyranitar. One step might be allowing OHKOs. These are just examples. Eventually, you'll get to a point where the metagame settles down and a lot of people will assume that that's set Y.

I think you are making an incorrect assumption that a majority of people do not enjoy standard play. The community is stronger than it's ever been and has been fairly stable for years and years at this point - it is not as though there are a shortage of people who want to play with the rules that will most likely ending up being what is used.

 

[Footnote]

I think you are making an incorrect assumption that a majority of people do not enjoy standard play. The community is stronger than it's ever been and has been fairly stable for years and years at this point - it is not as though there are a shortage of people who want to play with the rules that will most likely ending up being what is used.

I'm not so much assuming that most people don't enjoy Standard. I'm conjecturing that they might enjoy a different environment more. If you have no problem with seeing a lot of teams that look very, very similar, then more power to you. Pokémon is about fun and everyone should play the tier(s) that they like best. I'm simply offering another tier that may appeal more to people who are sick of seeing the same old Pokémon and moves over and over. If you've never even tried playing with these different rules, why are you so sure that you like your environment better? Just because something is tradition is no reason to do it.

 

[ANinyMouse]

I argue that even UU had staple walls and sweepers. The only way you get away from settling into a certain number of guys is to continually change the paradigm. I don't even presume to know how that'd work, outside of randomly generated teams. My point is that there are always going to be Pokemon who are flat-out better than others, so is that a problem for you? A glance at Smogon's Adv NU tier reveals the lowest of the low, but that doesn't mean NU is the most fair and balanced Adv tier. Anyway, I've gone off track. The way I see it, Footnote's proposal is an interesting one and there's no way to disprove his claims until some people try it out for a bit.

 

[Pneuma]

Better proposition then:
Do we start testing on WiFi or Competitor?

It's easy as hell to say "let's test this" and then not do anything at all.

 

[teekay]

Competitor. Who wants to go to all the trouble of breeding DT pokes for an experiment?

 

[ANinyMouse]

Competitor, of course. Large volumes of battles are harder to set up over WiFi, and Competitor's free, lol. To show that I'm a good sport, I'm going to start analyzing and building a team for this proposed environment.

Seriously though, other than annoying old Umbreon, what would even benefit from DT? Everything gets it. Baton Pass teams are kinda loathed. I honestly don't see a place for it, anyway.

 

[Hyra]

I'm not suggesting that Double Team is the panacea to all our look-alike-team ills.

Let me take a step back. I believe that in order to make our teams and battles more interesting, many things need to be changed at once. However, when I suggest one change without the others, like I did here, the fact that the other things have not been changed works as a counter-argument.

So, in this particular case, we've got the "We don't have moveslots available to counter Double Team because we have to counter standards" argument. Why don't we? Because there are Pokémon allowed that can hit hard, take hits, move fast and have a great movepool.

Let's try it from the other direction, shall we? "Let's ban the overpowered standards!" "No! They have counters, and are hence not overpowered!"

So suggesting any one change doesn't usually work, and suggesting all the changes at once doesn't get a lot of support.

I see it like a logic problem. Right now we have a set of rules and allowed Pokémon that we call 'Standard Play'. Let's call that set X. Somewhere we have a set of rules and allowed Pokémon that the most people will enjoy and find interesting. Let's call that set Y. The assumption around here is that once D/P starts, we'll be able to take our current set X and apply steps. One step might be banning Tyranitar. One step might be allowing OHKOs. These are just examples. Eventually, you'll get to a point where the metagame settles down and a lot of people will assume that that's set Y.

What they don't realize is that there may not be a sequence of legal steps that gets us from set X to set Y. For instance, if we ban one legendary, maybe that opens a void and overcentralizes the game around another. So we add the legendary back in and try something else, when what we really needed to do was take a different step.

My real argument is that a sequence of steps won't work. We need a jump. The reason I have a bias toward the set of rules that I use is because it's worked in Advance to create a much more interesting metagame than the one I've seen on NetBattle and on these boards. I guarantee you that we never got to set Y in Advance. If we take a jump, we can always take steps from there to tweak it. Even if we don't get to set Y, we might have found something we enjoy more than anything approximating set X.

But nobody wants to take a jump. It's too risky. There's no guarantee it'll succeed. Besides, people like being experts at a metagame they already know and are comfortable with.

So I still search for that mythical sequence of steps that will get us from set X to set Y. Maybe allowing Double Team is the first step. It's probably not, but I'm driven to keep trying.

Sorry for getting so far off topic. We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread.

So you know, I agree with the Legends and BST 600's being a metagame destablizer. How does something with at least 60 less base stats hope to compete with out having over specialized stats like Alakazam or Blissey?

But even when you ban these pokemon you still have standards. I'm going to sound cocky here but whatever. My team A Niny Mouse linked in his sig uses only Pokemon that fit in Footnote's "ideal" metagame. They are some of the biggest threats left. Gyarados is countered by Swampert and.... Electivire is a major force. Slowbro could run CM and be OMGLOL at everything but Heracross. Blissey walls all Special Attackers besides Zam if it's lucky.

Sure, more can compete but that doesn't mean there won't be a top 10 or 15 set of Pokemon. Also, Double Team does not really help a Pokemon. If it's so useful and makes all of the UU Pokemon OU, where do the OU Pokemon go? Surely Swampert is always better than Quagsire because both get Double Team. Only very niche Pokemon are helped by the addition of Double Team while it causes alot of frustration and throws wrenches into stuff like an incredbly well planned out BellyZard sweep.

I believe there should be three metagames:

1. Uber - Everything is allowed even DT/OHKO.

2. Overused - Current metagame, addition of DT/OHKO optional.

3. Non-Legendary - Today's UU. Bans all pokemon with BST of 580 or more. DT/OHKO optional.

Yawn, I don't even know which side of the fence I'm on.

 

[Mekkah]

The only reason why 60BP moves that always hit are worthless are because evasion abilities are not allowed... Rapid Spin and Quick Attack are prime examples already stated.

Rapid Spin completely gets rid of Spikes/Stealth Rock and Quick Attack is going to get rid of low health Pokemon. But Double Team will be used by Pokemon on all kinds of health levels, and using Swift won't stop that Zapdos or Suicune from Double Teaming up. They're not as universal counters for what they're made for as Quick Attack and Rapid Spin are.

Synre also said a lot of true words, I recommend reading them.

 

[Footnote]

So you know, I agree with the Legends and BST 600's being a metagame destablizer. How does something with at least 60 less base stats hope to compete with out having over specialized stats like Alakazam or Blissey?

But even when you ban these pokemon you still have standards. I'm going to sound cocky here but whatever. My team A Niny Mouse linked in his sig uses only Pokemon that fit in Footnote's "ideal" metagame. They are some of the biggest threats left. Gyarados is countered by Swampert and.... Electivire is a major force. Slowbro could run CM and be OMGLOL at everything but Heracross. Blissey walls all Special Attackers besides Zam if it's lucky.

Sure, more can compete but that doesn't mean there won't be a top 10 or 15 set of Pokemon. Also, Double Team does not really help a Pokemon. If it's so useful and makes all of the UU Pokemon OU, where do the OU Pokemon go? Surely Swampert is always better than Quagsire because both get Double Team. Only very niche Pokemon are helped by the addition of Double Team while it causes alot of frustration and throws wrenches into stuff like an incredbly well planned out BellyZard sweep.

I believe there should be three metagames:

1. Uber - Everything is allowed even DT/OHKO.

2. Overused - Current metagame, addition of DT/OHKO optional.

3. Non-Legendary - Today's UU. Bans all pokemon with BST of 580 or more. DT/OHKO optional.

Yawn, I don't even know which side of the fence I'm on.

Hyra, I like your team and your idea for the three metagames. You've hit the nail right on the head that my proposed metagame isn't meant to 'replace' standard, but it does fill a lot of the roles that UU currently fills in Advance. You can use Pokémon that aren't normally used, for instance.

You're also right about there still being standards in non-Legendary. The difference is you aren't forced to use them in order to compete against them. I could run a Rain Dance team or some such. As long as it had good synergy, it could give your team a good run for its money. I don't believe the same could be said for the standard metagame.

I've created a team that I haven't yet posted. There's some fun stuff on it and I don't want to give away everything, but here are the Pokémon on it, in alphabetical order:

Ambipom
Drapion
Forretress
Primeape
Spiritomb
Swampert

I honestly believe that this team can stand up to your team of non-legendary standards. It won't win every battle, but that's fine. My team doesn't include Double Team, in case you were wondering.

But, as ANinyMouse said, there's no way to know for sure unless we try it out.

 

[Hippo]

no because the powerfull never miss damage moves are still on VERY few pokemon and most of them are slow and/or frail..and theres nothing stoping a DTer from taunting your attempts to use something like forsight/haze

Exactly. So few pokemon get those moves.
Allowing DT to allow more pokemon is NOT the way to go. If DT is allowed, there will be the standard DT poke. Someone will find the one pokemon who does DT best, then that will be standard. Then one poke will be found to be the best DT counter. Whether it be Machamp with no Armor, or one of the 3 or whatever pokes who get Aura Sphere (the only no miss move worth using, really), it will be standard. Not only will this poke be standard, but it will be REQUIRED because if you don't have it, you're screwded by DT. That pokemon would be needed, as it does the job best. Congrats, you diversified the game by requiring one poke rarely used. Yeah, that did the job.

I'm not so much assuming that most people don't enjoy Standard. I'm conjecturing that they might enjoy a different environment more. If you have no problem with seeing a lot of teams that look very, very similar, then more power to you. Pokémon is about fun and everyone should play the tier(s) that they like best. I'm simply offering another tier that may appeal more to people who are sick of seeing the same old Pokémon and moves over and over. If you've never even tried playing with these different rules, why are you so sure that you like your environment better? Just because something is tradition is no reason to do it.

Standard is standard because thats how most people enjoy it. If everyone wanted to play with OHKO moves, that would be standard. Standard is just set by what people like. Some people don't like playing in a game where all the moves miss because some pokemon used double team 6 times and now sweeps with anything because it can't be touched.

I also don't like the idea of "lets test it". Just how do you test it?
People can't go out an put double team on all thier in game pokes only to find out (which we will) that DT is really no fun. Its just plain annoying, and more luck based an crit hit. Everyone has the same chance at a crit hit, but double team isn't fair. If person Y runs DT, X does not, X is screwed, going back to the idea that there would be the standard DTer and the standard counter.

It cannot be tested in game as it just wrecks pokemon. That leaves competitor. We have no idea when it will be out, so it could be months. Great, months to test some idea for a move that was broken before. It will probably be broken again as so few pokemon can counter what everyone can learn.

So now that competitor is out (we're talking in the future now) we test DT. Woo some people use it, some don't and its just like, "well damn. DT screwed me over." When do we call the line and say, "Ok, DT doesn't work. Banned." It would take months to get people to agree. I just don't see how it could be done, testing crap, then going back.

I just don't like the idea. We're fine without the use of DT. Adding it would make it so that 2 pokes are standard. The best DTer and the best counter. And if you don't have that counter, you're screwed.

 

[striker64]

Not only will this poke be standard, but it will be REQUIRED because if you don't have it, you're screwded by DT. That pokemon would be needed, as it does the job best. Congrats, you diversified the game by requiring one poke rarely used.

Blissey is the only Pokemon that can come in on a powerful special based attack now. No other Pokemon can come in and take the hit like Blissey can. So now, Blissey is on almost every team to wall special attacks because it does the job best.