I don't really like the implication of the 'Non-Legendary' tier replacing common day UU, mostly for one reason. The point, at least to me, of the Underused tier is to get a large amount of pokemon to be playable. Certainly just like in OU play there are a group of pokemon who are used more in their tier than many of the others, but a lot more variety is possible and a much higher percentage of the available pokemon are legitimately usable. I don't think that would be the case with the 'Non-Legendary' tier, since there are still plenty of pokemon remaining that are good enough to cut it in the OU game that will absolutely demonlish a majority of what remains, especially with a portion of their counters banned.
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An Evasive Argument.
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I don't really like the implication of the 'Non-Legendary' tier replacing common day UU, mostly for one reason. The point, at least to me, of the Underused tier is to get a large amount of pokemon to be playable. Certainly just like in OU play there are a group of pokemon who are used more in their tier than many of the others, but a lot more variety is possible and a much higher percentage of the available pokemon are legitimately usable. I don't think that would be the case with the 'Non-Legendary' tier, since there are still plenty of pokemon remaining that are good enough to cut it in the OU game that will absolutely demonlish a majority of what remains, especially with a portion of their counters banned.
Ok... so allowing DT will make people have Blissey, the DTer (optional) and the counter. And you need the counter.
And teams can go without Bliss. Its just hard.
Too bad no non-bliss special wall has been made. (Cress is legendary, i don't want to use that :|)
This is completely untrue. While yes, a never miss move is the most surefire way to beat DT(and as an aside more people should use Machamp anyway!), it certainly isn't required to beat DT. You make it sound as though the only way to hit a pokemon with any evasion at all is with a never miss move, and that frankly isn't true. With as many Schemers and Swords Dancers as there are, I am perfectly happy with my opponent DTing. They can use DT, I'll raise my attack two levels, and the odds are good even if I miss once I'll get them before they get me, and now I have a pokemon with two levels of it's attack stat boosted and ready to cause some havoc. Even if I lose this fight a pokemon with a dt or two doesn't scare me nearly as much as something with a couple Swords Dances or Schemes or Dragon Dances - Their offense is normally limited enough that I'll be able to get a few shots off and the odds are good I'll kill them. There is always of course the chance that I will not hit, but I think you gain more than you lose by throwing shit like Machamp and Aura Sphere around where it doesn't fit.
This one gives the above quote a run for it's money, however.
For what it's worth as far as RMTs go I haven't seen nearly as much Blissey as I did in RS despite the fact Snorlax lost a lot of it's walling ability, but honestly it isn't necessary to have a special shield the way Blissey does it. Plenty of other pokemon, even many of the popular offensive pokemon right now, can absorb special attacks of types they resist and then fire back, it merely requires some accurate prediction rather than just throwing Blissey at it.
Honestly, have you guys ever even played competitive pokemon before? I can't figure out why a lot of people are posting in this topic and the Darkrai one...
I too am trying for more variety, but I disagree that the majority of non-legendary Pokémon will be demolished by the big hitters. If you construct a team well and have enough good synergy, you can take great advantage of the quirks that many 'UU' Pokémon have.
Which UU Pokémon in particular do you think can't work in the Non-Legendary environment?
I think the issues people have with Double Team are similar to why people are having a hard time coming to terms with the perceived metagame in DP.
The traditional concept of the counter as is commonly accepted here is "a pokemon who can switch in, take any hit, and immediately threaten the opponent." However, with offensive power so high, very few true counters exist in DP. And yet, teams posted still try their hardest to play by the ADV concept of comprehensive counters. The proper solution I think is that we can no longer rely on surefire answers to defeating Pokemon. Generally the strategy people have adapted to dealing with this is simply hyper-offense. If both sides in a war are throwing around atom bombs, whoever throws them the quickest and most accurately wins.
What does Double Team give us then? It is a move which raises evasion by a small increment every turn. It can be used by almost every Pokemon. It applies a universal probability factor to Pokemon.
I think the problem people ultimately have with Double Team is that it goes against the concept of Problem A requires Solution B or C, and I think this thinking needs to change for DP. What Double Team gives us is a universal solution that does not work 100% of the time (or even 50% of the time in most cases), but no matter how many Dragon Dances or Swords Dances or Nasty Plots the Pokemon has set up, a miss is basically a miss. Again, this isn't a reliable solution to hyper-offense, but it's not meant to be. Double Team is not a specific solution to a specific problem, it is a generalized and imperfect possibility for survival that can be applied to virtually every situation (which bars of course, No Armor Machamp, Aura Sphere, etc).
Let's take the example of Heracross, one of the premiere offensive monstrosities of DP. Now look at its current most popular moveset: Megahorn, Stone Edge, Close Combat, Pursuit.
Megahorn and Stone Edge have less than perfect accuracies and 8PP max. Close Combat comes with a drawback every time it hits. Pursuit is only effective if the opponent is switching. Now, tell me this isn't a perfect opportunity to Double Team on it or to just mess with evasion in general.
I don't know whether this will increase or decrease diversity in the metagame, and I could see it going either way, but I lean towards increase. You could potentially take your awesome power hitters and slap Double Team on them, but that's one moveslot that could have been used for another attack. On the other hand, everyone is talking about how defensive Pokemon can no longer defend the way they used to. I think these are excellent candidates for Double Team.
On a final note, the question comes up, what makes Double Team different now? Because getting a hit in through Double Team means a lot more in DP with this perceived hyper-offense. Again, Double Team is not a perfect solution for one thing, but an imperfect solution for many things, and that imperfection can also be met by strong single hits.
I guess the problem here is, people hate getting haxed.
The traditional concept of the counter as is commonly accepted here is "a pokemon who can switch in, take any hit, and immediately threaten the opponent." However, with offensive power so high, very few true counters exist in DP. And yet, teams posted still try their hardest to play by the ADV concept of comprehensive counters. The proper solution I think is that we can no longer rely on surefire answers to defeating Pokemon. Generally the strategy people have adapted to dealing with this is simply hyper-offense. If both sides in a war are throwing around atom bombs, whoever throws them the quickest and most accurately wins.
What does Double Team give us then? It is a move which raises evasion by a small increment every turn. It can be used by almost every Pokemon. It applies a universal probability factor to Pokemon.
I think the problem people ultimately have with Double Team is that it goes against the concept of Problem A requires Solution B or C, and I think this thinking needs to change for DP. What Double Team gives us is a universal solution that does not work 100% of the time (or even 50% of the time in most cases), but no matter how many Dragon Dances or Swords Dances or Nasty Plots the Pokemon has set up, a miss is basically a miss. Again, this isn't a reliable solution to hyper-offense, but it's not meant to be. Double Team is not a specific solution to a specific problem, it is a generalized and imperfect possibility for survival that can be applied to virtually every situation (which bars of course, No Armor Machamp, Aura Sphere, etc).
Let's take the example of Heracross, one of the premiere offensive monstrosities of DP. Now look at its current most popular moveset: Megahorn, Stone Edge, Close Combat, Pursuit.
Megahorn and Stone Edge have less than perfect accuracies and 8PP max. Close Combat comes with a drawback every time it hits. Pursuit is only effective if the opponent is switching. Now, tell me this isn't a perfect opportunity to Double Team on it or to just mess with evasion in general.
I don't know whether this will increase or decrease diversity in the metagame, and I could see it going either way, but I lean towards increase. You could potentially take your awesome power hitters and slap Double Team on them, but that's one moveslot that could have been used for another attack. On the other hand, everyone is talking about how defensive Pokemon can no longer defend the way they used to. I think these are excellent candidates for Double Team.
On a final note, the question comes up, what makes Double Team different now? Because getting a hit in through Double Team means a lot more in DP with this perceived hyper-offense. Again, Double Team is not a perfect solution for one thing, but an imperfect solution for many things, and that imperfection can also be met by strong single hits.
I guess the problem here is, people hate getting haxed.
Alright, so we have 5 counters for it, 3 of which still require a hit. Maybe I'm unlucky, but when I play Battle Factory on emerald, if the AI starts DTing me, I usually lose right there. I never can hit, I'm surprised if I hit after 1 DT, a hit after 2 is totally shocking and rare. Sure a scheme or whatever poke is scary, but DT would be like raising your defenses. SD/Scheme/DD all are nice, but if you can land a good SE move, you can take them out. DT is a little different. You know what moves can beat a dancer or something, but with DT, you don't. You could hit the first one and kill it, or you could miss the first 20 and lose 3 pokes because you can't hit one move.
Suppose you do dance or whatever when your opponent uses DT. Ok, 1 boost, 1 DT. Then again, they DT. Now you can go again, boost, or you can attack. If you attack now, maybe you can hit and KO, maybe you can't. It depends on what they are and what moves and such. Suppose you miss, they DT. Its now even harder to hit them. SD, DD, and scheme just don't keep up, IMO. Sure you can kill them, IF you hit. If you can't hit, they can just sweep you with whatever they have, you'll just be missing over and over. Oh, thats a fun game.
If you choose not to use DT, because you see it as cheap, you're screwed. If everyone is out using DT, you are forced to join the bandwagon (creating less variety) because its the only way to stand a chance. If they just DT while you can't, you're in a bind.
It goes off the idea above. One pokemon will be figured out to be the best counter there is to DT. Lets call that pokemon Machamp. (Hes not TOO cool, he has a really pretty limited move pool. His Dynamic Punch does the same as a SE element punch, and also confuses, meaning theres really no reason to use them except for ghost or whatever, but anyway).
Machamp is now the best way to stop DT. If DT catches on, people will decide, "Well dang, if I ever want to stop a DT, I'll need Machamp." So they add it. Then other people add it, as its the best way to stop a common strategy that otherwise will slowly kick you in the shins while you try to stomp thier toes blindfolded. Maybe you'll hit, but if you have the option to take off the blindfold and smash them with a brick, you'll use it. (Best comparison ever? =P)
Allowing DT will just create pokemon that will be super common because they will DT best. Imagine a Shedinja with DT. You NEED a counter for that. So few moves can kill him, let alone if he DTs everything to hell. You not only need a hit, you need a hit from a certain type. If you lose your poke that has that type earlier, or lose it to sheninja having never hit, you lose the match.
So to prevent that loss, you add machamp, the perfect poke. Great, hes now on every team. Adding DT didn't make a variety of pokes, it made one new great poke a standard, so you don't get raped by DT.
The same idea goes for DT. Say Shedinja is found to be the best DT because of his ability. All he needs to do is DT a few times. When a counter poke switches in, switch, kill it. Then go back. It just shows how broken DT is. With Shedinja, you not only need a SE move, but you have to hit with it. (Banning Shedinja is an idea, but allowing DT, then banning Sheddy? Nah. Hes too cool and novelty to ban anyway.)
Allowing DT just creates standards. It gets new pokes in there, but they will be in every team, which is part of the reason Footnote said it should be allowed. But it actually won't increase pokes, it will make one that counters it more common than ever.
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Other quote is Bliss, meh.
Edit: I think this needs to be added; yes, people do hate getting haxed. DT is the biggest one out there. If you can't hit, you lose. If you don't get the right random number or whatever determines hitting with DT, you lose. Great, lets hinge every battle on whether people can pull the right number from the mechanics in the game. Woo, thats fun.
Probably the biggest effect of allowing DT would be in ubers, not standards. In standards the main DTer would likely be Umbreon like in Advance standards. Umbreon is good for this role because it has high defenses, pretty good HP, a recovery move, Mean Look, and Baton Pass. Umbreon's defenses, however good they are, don't protect it from Heracross/Medicham/Pinsir/Machamp etc.
However, in ubers what would the DTer be? Lugia. You have just turned an already awesome toxistaller into unbeatable unless you can manage to land a couple of Stone Edge hits early. But since Stone Edge can miss on its own, you won't be able to because after the first DT it's accuracy is somewhere between ADV Hypnosis and DP Hypnosis. After 2 it's near Zap Cannon. After 3 it's OHKO accuracy. Shock Wave does shit damage to it so that won't work either. Really the only thing you can do is bring in Kyogre and Thunder in the rain. If you run a sun team you're automatically screwed. Talk about diversity killing...
However, in ubers what would the DTer be? Lugia. You have just turned an already awesome toxistaller into unbeatable unless you can manage to land a couple of Stone Edge hits early. But since Stone Edge can miss on its own, you won't be able to because after the first DT it's accuracy is somewhere between ADV Hypnosis and DP Hypnosis. After 2 it's near Zap Cannon. After 3 it's OHKO accuracy. Shock Wave does shit damage to it so that won't work either. Really the only thing you can do is bring in Kyogre and Thunder in the rain. If you run a sun team you're automatically screwed. Talk about diversity killing...
Don't get me started on the Battle Frontier. That place makes me so mad! It was cool of them to put it in and all, but gah!
Here's the thing: In the Battle Frontier, Double Team and OHKOs are completely unfair. Why? Because if you lose one match, you have to start the event all over. Your opponents aren't real and therefore have no such restriction. Double Team and OHKOs increase the amount of randomness of a battle, it's true. If you're playing a sequence of battles against the same opponent, that's cool. It'll even out eventually. But if you only get one chance to beat each opponent in a sequence of 100 opponents, then you will be screwed by luck and lose eventually. Espcially when you can only have three Pokémon on your team.
So if Double Team and/or OHKOs ever do become standard, all tournament matches should be best-two-out-of-three, or the tournaments should be Double-Elimination.
Here's the thing: In the Battle Frontier, Double Team and OHKOs are completely unfair. Why? Because if you lose one match, you have to start the event all over. Your opponents aren't real and therefore have no such restriction. Double Team and OHKOs increase the amount of randomness of a battle, it's true. If you're playing a sequence of battles against the same opponent, that's cool. It'll even out eventually. But if you only get one chance to beat each opponent in a sequence of 100 opponents, then you will be screwed by luck and lose eventually. Espcially when you can only have three Pokémon on your team.
So if Double Team and/or OHKOs ever do become standard, all tournament matches should be best-two-out-of-three, or the tournaments should be Double-Elimination.
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