No metal puns this time, sry
First of all, the flaw in the argument begins with the assumption that Steelceus doesn't switch into Mdiancie. I'm not sure what you mean by "very nicely", but taking 51% damage on a high roll, leading to a CM set up followed by outspeeding and OHKO'ing Mdiancie when you feel the set up is ready seems good enough for me. Secondly, it resists both of Mdiancie's stab moves, so unless there is an insane predict of a Steelceus switch in, it'll barely have any issues vs Mdiancie(and will still beat it quite easily on the predict). On the other hand, Fairyceus, while being good vs Mdiancie, misses out on the judgment OHKO and resists none of the moves Mdiancie keeps. Added to that, there is the chance of SpA drop by Mdiancie's Mblast, which would make Judgment a 3HKO (rolls if 339 SpA). The fact that Steelceus resists stabs, outspeeds and barely gets 2hko'd by EP, and still OHKO's Mdiancie after mblast drop instantly makes it a legit Mdiancie check.
I didn't mean for this to sound as detrimental as it sounded, although taking this damage from Steelceus and either being forced to recover on a switch-in, or switch out and require a nice switch-in later to gain its health back. Avoiding this weakness is nice, but I have to agree it wasn't really worth a point.
And also, I don't think dealing better with Msab is an argument, since both Steelceus and Fairyceus eliminate Msab with much ease. Unless you're trying to argue which of Fairyceus/Steelceus is better, this doesn't make sense. (Considering how Fairyceus is A+ and Steelceus is A-, and you haven't mentioned any serious holes about it checking bouncers)
My argument was that Sableye's versatility with possibly something niche in Taunt doesn't impact Fairyceus to the extent of Steelceus. I'm not arguing the fact of which Pokemon is better although they are ranked on a separate basis. This was just a rebuttal to a previous point, made outside of the thread.
1- Steelceus isn't a part of teams solely for this purpose, it is just ONE of the many perks of having it.
2- Mdiancie-Y god-P don based teams gives HO teams quite a headache. Steelceus breaks most of these cores.
1 - What are they? Up to this point, we had yet to discuss its definitive viability and purpose.
2 - Gotta love investing max SpA in Steelceus to 3HKO Standard PDon.
While countering Mray and E killers isn't even a part of Steelceus' job, it doesn't flat out lose to either of them. An Mray switch on rocks vs CM ceus is an OHKO on Mray (and judgment alone does about 55%, allowing easy revenge killing in worst case scenarios), whereas the "dreaded" E killer EQ depends on a speed tie. Barely as scary as you're making it look.
Your first point on switch in on Rocks relies on mispredictions, stable rock setting, ensuring there isn't time for hazard removal, e.t.c.
So say one of these factors isn't necessarily there, Ray can Dance after switchin and either OHKO Steelceus or OHKO/severely dent what comes in.
You mentioned that Steelceus beats EKiller 1v1, I was just refuting that. Stating that it isn't guaranteed and relies on bad RNG.
I think you're undermining exactly how important it is for HO to have a switch in vs Fairyceus. Dual status defensive fairyceus beats e killers, Mray, Y gods, P dons (except SD) and cripples anything else with a status of its preference. The only other things that beat Fairyceus with similar ease and can fit into HO are P ogre and double dance p don, both of which have their own sets of flaws. Steelceus' ability to check Fairyceus and scarfed xerns makes it a solid partner for Mray and it gets an easy spot in HO based teams.
I've never seen a problem with Fairyceus when I've ran Hyper Offense, usually any CM mon can take care of it, and Steelceus isn't needed at all.
ExtremeKiller Arceus doesn't have problems with Scarf Xern, again any CM mon can achieve this purpose.
I know for example many Scarf Xerneas are running mixed coverage in MB/CC/RS now, where CC can 2HKO Steelceus on Switch-in.
Same thing happens with Focus Blast switch-in ensuring they hit it.
Again, while it isn't even Steelceus' job to beat check e killers, it doesn't straight out lose to them, which is the aforementioned advantage. And I don't think assuming either of rocks being up/Steelceus having max SpA is a scenario that is too unlikely to happen.
But it can, and your statement was "Well, it has the occasional advantage of winning ties and 2hkoing EKillers after rocks." That's copy and pasted from what you typed out on Discord. I wasn't stating this was necessarily what makes it relevant, but this isn't really relevant. Again, I was just rebutting your point, not providing an example for why it isn't as great as it seems. Essentially what I mean by this is: It isn't relevant, all Arceus forms can win 1v1 vs EKiller.
It isn't a xern check. It was never deemed to be one. It beats all xern variations 1v1 with an OHKO, which is a handy ability to have. I don't think any Arceus form can boast of being a switch in for Geo Xern, so idk what this was about.
I was only explaining a common misconception. Although many forms can boast about being a Xerneas switch-in, Arceus-Poison for example is much better at this functionality as it isn't threatened by both of Xerneas's most common moves, and even Psychic/Psyshock fails to pick up the OHKO at +2. Other forms such as Fire can do this extremely effectively, although avoid any other purpose and therefore aren't really viable unless an extreme Xerneas weakness has been formed. Xerneas appreciates Steelceus, In fact, LO Adamant EKiller does more post-Geomancy, which also has alternative functionality rather than being used for really niche things like Steelceus.
Before I get to the part where you say why Steelceus isn't good, let's clear out some of its real advantages which you didn't mention.
1- Walls Lugia entirely, along with all toxic stallers.
2- Natural partner for Mray. The only legit checks of Mray in the meta (fairyceus/def y god/Gira etc) are all beaten easily by Steelceus. Whereas, Mray helps Steelceus by eliminating Ho oh, Ferro, Water/Groundceus. While it isn't a switch in for either, Mray can also deal with P ogre and Rai 1v1.
3- Solid CM user with nice coverage.
4- Being able to function in HO, as well as stall, effectively.
5- Probably the only CM ceus form capable of beating Clefable, which is becoming a great check for xerns/cm ceus'
1- Any steel type; mentioned in previous post of how easy it is to wall Lugia.
2- Defensive synergy is nice here, as well as offensive synergy. I can agree with this statement entirely.
3- Eh, I don't know about coverage as an argument, I mean it's Steel+Ground isn't the best thing in the world.
4- Agree.
5- Poisonceus beats it, so do Refresh variants of other CM Arceus.
I think what was missing from my previous points is no one had specifically pointed these out as advantages, however I agree with most of those points.
What? Like seriously, how? It beats P don and Mray on the switch in, it beats Xern unless it goes in vs geo xern on the geo turn (which is a retarded move) and its battles vs e killers are reliant on a roll. While we're on that matter, NONE of them except rai are a switch in for Steelceus (judgment does a buttload on rai and it'll lose unless it is at max hp, too). And while we're on that note, what CM Arc form doesn't lose to rai? And even e killers lose to 3/4 of the other S rank mons 1v1 - does that make them bad? This is a retarded argument.
>Beats PDon on Switchin, already stated as false ^
>Beats MRay on Switchin, ensuring all three criteria ^
>Beats Xerneas, stated that no one is going to Geomancy up on Steelceus, however forcing it out is advantageous.
>Beats EKiller, already discussed ^
>Rai beats it, well Rai beats everything.
EKiller manages to,
PDon: Disable Rock Setup with Magic Coat, without sacrificing too much in its extra moveslot. Do 80% to defensive PDon forms, while OHKOing others at +2.
MRay: Adamant LO guaranteed OHKO at +2, Jolly LO high chance to OHKO at +2. OR if we're using the rock argument, any LO form wins at +2, even against Bulky Ray spreads, and against non-bulky spreads any EKiller form wins.
Xerneas: Can come in on +2 Xern and severely dent it, usually preventing sweeps, e.t.c. you know what happens here. Also can OHKO at +2 with Adamant LO.
EKiller: EKiller can beat EKiller I believe.
Rai, Lum variants beats 1v1, Magic Coat prevents Void, essentially one of the best checks for Darkrai in the game.
Don't call my arguments retarded, they have feelings too.
Let's see.
Ho-Oh (used mostly to beat CM ceus forms)
P ogre ( ^ )
Groundceus (Specific type matchup, every CM ceus form loses to another that way {Groundceus to Waterceus, normalceus to ghostceus, fairyceus to steelceus etc} )
Mewtwo (beats all CM ceus forms except ghost)
Mgar - The only way I see this happening is if Mgar runs fmiss, here - which isn't even an OHKO. Steelceus absorbs swave and tanks 2 shadow balls, while 2hko'ing with judgment. And considering how fmiss-sludge wave sets aren't as common in AG, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where Mgar will beat Steelceus. Not even going to discuss how Steelceus can just set up CM on the protect turn and win with judgment.
Essentially, we're stating here that its checks don't matter because they check
all CM Arceus formes. :J
Some CM formes can actually beat Ho-Oh, see CM Ghostceus and the rare occurrence of CM Rockceus.
My statement is that these highly viable mons happen to check it, and check it well.
You've repeated this like 5 times in one post. And for the fifth time, Steelceus is not a switch in for E killers OR Mray. It was never meant to be one. It's like you're complaining about how Normalceus should check Ghostceus on the switch in because it resists its stab. It's just the fact that in spite of their coverage moves, Steelceus doesn't lose to them (and can revenge kill e killers and Mray when they've been weakened, not be a switch in for either)
The only reason I keep bringing it up, is because you keep bringing it up. And I continue to emphasise that this point is stupid and we really shouldn't be discussing it.
So if I wish to not be weak to toxic-stall based teams and wish to run HO, I have to start using frail/slow magic bouncers or stall-based heal bell mons that'll ruin my team's momentum? And it's really pissing me off how liberal you are with "Steelceus fails at everything and is a shit mon" and what not. It has a great type for judgment and EP fixes most of its flaws. You've mentioned nothing that makes it worse than other CM ceus' forms except for how V-create Mray can fuck it up or how relying on a tie vs e killers is a sin. It is going to be a very circumstantial situation when e killers/Mray can guarantee kills vs Steelceus without being easily revenge killed. And how well it deals with the plethora of physical walls flying around in the meta is a huge plus. Or it could just act as bait for ho oh and run physically offensive sets with SE. At the same time, it can be run with semi-stall to absorb toxic vs other stall based teams and have an effective switch in for LO y god, Mdiancie, both of which shit on most stall, and allowing a set up on Ingrain xern after Clefable stalls it out. It is extremely versatile and considering how most of its checks check almost all CM ceus variations, I see no legitimate reason why this thing should drop, let alone drop to C ranks (this makes my blood boil).
No, you run Lum berrys, you run Zekrom, you use Stallbreakers.
Steelceus is overrated, not shit. I agree it has uses but are these really worth A- viability?
EP fixes PDon weakness, Steelceus 1v1, Ditto 1v1 which weren't even stated as its weaknesses. Other than PDon and I already said that wasn't relevant there.
Ray argument above.
Bait for Ho-Oh is nice, but it's unreliable, and you're forced to either run a large amount of Atk EVs to OHKO standard sets or run Physical Steelceus which avoids all its previous stated advantages.
Does set-up on Ingrain Xern, but who runs this other than me? Also if you're good with Protect predicts, it can even fail here.
I'm going to ditch this argument and come back to it after testing, however, I still believe Steelceus is overrated. Maybe not to C (that seems silly now) but still by a few ranks or so.
