Arceus (Revamp) (GP 0/2)

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#26
Here are the relevant calculations for Landorus-T shrang:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 224 HP / 32 Def** Landorus-T: 278-329 (74.13 - 87.73%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Landorus-T: 144-169 (38.4 - 45.06%) -- 6.64% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

**- 216 HP / 252 Atk+ / 40 Def is probably the intended EV spread.
The problem with CB Landorus-T is that just like CB Scizor, it is easy to wear down (No reliable recovery sucks). Unless it is perfectly conserved like you said, it is highly unlikely that it will be able to tank a boosted ExtremeSpeed (Granted, I imagine it could very well tank a relatively weak move like Lum Berry +1 ExtremeSpeed with ease).

The last time I tested CB Landorus-T, I believe I was using a 4 HP variant (Which isn’t exactly "optimized"). However, even with 216 HP / 40 Def, that does not change the fact that prior damage is all but inevitable due to Stealth Rock as well as answering miscellaneous threats -> this is why CB Landorus-T is unreliable and extremely shaky.

For all intents and purposes, CB Landorus-T is only useful against Extreme Killer for its Intimidate utility and the threat of a Superpower OHKO after SR (Should it not be OHKOed when weakened of course, but this forces ExtremeSpeed). Ideally, I would have liked to mention CB Landorus-T and Scizor given their performance should they be adequately conserved and/or Arceus lack sufficient power (i.e. He’s carrying an item like Lum Berry). However, with a gigantic C&C section as of the moment, I unfortunately had to cut some possible "lesser" answers for the greater good.

Not all is lost for CB Landorus-T though. I will personally make sure that there is a general mention for Intimidate’s utility against Extreme Killer. CB Landorus-T will also be specifically mentioned for its performance against Bandceus given that:

Update Analysis Notes said:
Choice Band Landorus-T (He works much better here than against Extreme Killer) can switch into any move (ExtremeSpeed still hurts though; it can possibly 2HKO after SR). Trick doesn't matter for obvious reasons. Superpower only revenges somewhat weakened ones. Unable to heal.
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Just another more important thing. I know and appreciate the fact that you take great pride and detail in your analyses, but try to make sure this analysis is done in shorter time than Latias's analysis (much shorter). Don't bother going into detail that is unnecessary. We don't want to wait 6 months for an analysis (albeit comprehensive) again, please!
Currently, I'm stuck in the cutting/polishing phase. I definitely agree though that I should get my act together and finish this soon!
 

shrang

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#27
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 224 HP / 32 Def** Landorus-T: 278-329 (74.13 - 87.73%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Landorus-T: 144-169 (38.4 - 45.06%) -- 6.64% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

**- 216 HP / 252 Atk+ / 40 Def is probably the intended EV spread.
No, 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def was not the intended EV spread. 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def is the one on-site and it is for a very specific reason. I have no idea where you got the 216/40 idea from (it's not optimised, lol). 74.40% - 87.47% is how much is does to 224 HP / 32 Def, which is a 0% chance of OHKOing with Stealth Rock damage, instead of a 6.25%. However, you are right in saying that Landorus-T is pretty shaky check, but you cannot deny that a fresh CB Landorus-T will always, given standard battle conditions check ExtremeKiller.
 
#28
shrang, if you are wondering about the validity of my source for those damage calculations, I obtained them from Honkalculator 4000 as follows:


Assuming Honko’s programming is correct, if a 6.25% chance to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock was the intention of the on-site EV spread, then I stand corrected and apologize for providing the closest EV spread that prevents such an OHKO. I only sought to offer a possible EV spread that most closely aligns to your expressed intention; clearly, my actions have been misguided and proved harmful rather than helpful.

Regarding your other points, I imagine I have already addressed them in my previous post. However, if by some chance you glanced over it while reading (Understandable given its length), I have highlighted the relevant section below for your benefit:

Ideally, I would have liked to mention CB Landorus-T and Scizor given their performance should they be adequately conserved and/or Arceus lack sufficient power (i.e. He’s carrying an item like Lum Berry). However, with a gigantic C&C section as of the moment, I unfortunately had to cut some possible "lesser" answers for the greater good.
If you have any further questions concerning Landorus-T against Extreme Killer, I am always available to answer them through PM.
 
#29
I don't know if I am too late to mention this now, but I think other defensive Arceus(not Wallarceus and Fighting Arceus as they are already mentioned) that are not weak to any of the Extremekillers moves, such as Ground Arceus, Grass Arceus, and Water Arceus, should be mentioned in C&C. I am referring to these onsite sets in particular:

Ground Arceus
252 HP / 96 Def / 160 Spe
-Recover
-Wil-O-wisp
-EQ
-Stone Edge

Grass Arceus
252 HP / 144 SpD / 112 Spe (If your team need to better check Extremekiller, you can easily switch the SpD ev to Def)
-Recover
-thunder Wave (Again, Wil-O-wisp should be used in order to check Extremekiller)
-Grass Knot
-ice beam

Similar to Grass Arceus, Water Arceus can use similar ev and moves (mainly Recover+Wil-O-Wisp) to better handle Ekiller. I understand you already have a long list in C&C at the moment and these defensive Arceus set may not be common, but you should still briefly mention them if you can IMO.
 
#30
No... they all lose to Arceus holding a Lum Berry or if Will-O-Wisp misses. The standard Arceus-Grass loses to Life Orb ExtremeKiller even after the burn.
 
#31
No... they all lose to Arceus holding a Lum Berry or if Will-O-Wisp misses. The standard Arceus-Grass loses to Life Orb ExtremeKiller even after the burn.
Well, Arceus-Rock, Steel and Ghost will also lose in the same situation, yet they are still mentioned as check. Also, if one thinks that the investment in defense is not enough, he can use a 252hp/240Def impish or bold ev spread like Wallarceus. Yes those variants miss leftovers and are quite rare, but Ground, Grass, and Water are all good defensive typing that some teams appreciate more than Normal, and they do exist and viable.
 
#32
Well then, Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel shouldn't be mentioned at all... They always lose to +2 Earthquake since Lum Berry nullifies Will-O-Wisp. If they survive, they get taken out next turn by a +2 ExtremeSpeed.

Arceus-Ghost is beaten by +2 Jolly Shadow Force or 2 +2 Adamant Shadow Claws. Arceus-Ghost only has a 56.25% chance to burn Lum Berry Arceus anyway, assuming that Arceus-Ghost is faster.
 

Furai

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#33
Stop assuming those are hard counters. Arceus barely has those. However, those are brilliant checks and can easily cripple non-Lum Berry Arceus. They should not be your first option check, but they work efficiently enough. The ladder argument is extremely redundant and I don't know what does it even have to do with the topic.
 
#34
Shadow Force also evades crippling support moves such as Will-O-Wisp during its charge turn, though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against foes such as Lugia or Normal-type Pokemon.
Why Lugia? Even with the usual 252 / 176+ spread and Multiscale, it will take over 1/3 from a non-LO +2 Shadow Force, and with LO, its a 2HKO.
 

Furai

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#35
Why Lugia? Even with the usual 252 / 176+ spread and Multiscale, it will take over 1/3 from a non-LO +2 Shadow Force, and with LO, its a 2HKO.
During the charge turn Lugia can Roost back to full HP, activating its Multiscale, which allows it to tank Shadow Force reliably. Then, as Arceus strikes, Lugia can either cripple it with status or phase it away, and so on.
 

shrang

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#37
Okay, I'm going to concise this analysis. No one GP this before I do, please.

Cross outs = Remove
Blue = Insert
Red = Comment

<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in pure, unadulterated awe and wondrous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best Pokemon in the entire game. His stats are unrivaled; His versatility is unmatched. His potential remains unlimited. He has transcended beyond typing, for Multitype allows Him to assume any of the seventeen types that He so desires. Even then, His purest forme remains seated upon His throne. Whether wiping His creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer or standing as their resolute guardian by virtue of Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds. (I don't care what Furai says, the entire crossed out section is fluff) Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p> (I'm not against you putting additional information to GS's original overview, but PLEASE make it things that matter in an analysis - what Arceus can do, its pros/cons, without overhyping this Pokemon which isn't even that good. What you wrote can seriously be condensed down to "Arceus can act as both a sweeper and a wall")

[SET]
name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe (SD Rayquaza is a thing now, I'll talk about this after)

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>When Extreme Killer appears on the battlefield, you know His final judgment has arrived. Little can avert His decision, for very good bulk and the priority of His ExtremeSpeed makes Him difficult to revenge. Combine it with a base 120 Attack stat, the ease of setting up a Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the most legendary late-game sweepers of all time, capable of decimating both offensive and defensive teams alike.</p> Waste of a paragraph that says very little (especially that first sentence), you can easily cut that down to what I have below

<p>ExtremeKiller is possibly one of the most dangerous late-game sweepers in the game. With a high base 120 Attack stat, STAB ExtremeSpeed and excellent bulk, it sets up on many Pokemon with ease. Swords Dance will enhance the power of His STAB ExtremeSpeed to apocalyptic incredible levels, wiping away all but the most resilient. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is more than capable enough to OHKO even the deadliest of Uber titans, such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Latias, Palkia, and Reshiram.</p><p> Although the power of ExtremeSpeed is divine, coverage moves are necessary to account for its deficiencies. To repel the Ghost-type Pokemon that can come in on ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Claw is the preferred option for its high reliability against Ghost-types that are immune to ExtremeSpeed. For those who crave more power, Shadow Force is a better another option. Its power after a Swords Dance is so extreme that even physically defensive Giratina risks being OHKOed without any hazards provided Arceus is with an Adamant nature and holding a Life Orb; Giratina-O, Ghost Arceus, and Wobbuffet are easily OHKOed. Shadow Force also evades crippling support moves such as Will-O-Wisp during its charge turn, though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against Lugia and Normal-type Pokemon. (I'd like you to go into a bit more detail on why Shadow Force is an incredibly risky move) For His last slot, Earthquake eradicates the Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that could otherwise take an ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga or Heatran. Brick Break, though less powerful, breaks through troublesome screens and is significantly more effective against Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Wallceus. Recover allows Him to act as a pivot at the detriment of coverage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With STAB ExtremeSpeed as His judgment, one might wonder why Arceus even bothers with Speed. After all, the given EVs and nature grant Him a superb combination of maximum power, bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 90s. But alas, Arceus is incredibly versatile, capable of running several EV spreads just as effective as the last.</p><p>Using the given EVs as a starting point, invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. For instance, in order to outspeed neutral base 95 Speed Pokemon like Adamant Rayquaza, 56 Spe EVs is sufficient. 56 Speed EVs allow Arceus to outspeed Adamant Rayquaza. 124 Spe EVs is enough to outpace positive base 90s like such as Timid Dialga, while 168 Spe EVs is adequate to outspeed any positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza. For other key threats, a Jolly nature becomes necessary. 160 Spe EVs is sufficient to outspeed positive base 108 Speed Pokemon like such as Terrakion. (Terrakion is pretty much the only relevant Poke) 176 Spe EVs is necessary to outpace positive base 110s like such as Froslass. Finally, 252 Spe EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against opposing maximum Speed Arceus (Why is this important?). Once this desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk. (Redundant)</p>

<p>Unlike His other formes, Extreme Killer can utilize almost any item. For those seeking a balanced approach, Silk Scarf is the preferred option. It provides a 20% boost to ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk. For the more offensively inclined, Life Orb is a better option. Although the recoil damage is unfortunate, it Life Orb provides a great deal more power to all of Arceus's attacks. With just a Life Orb and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is capable of OHKOing threats such as Kyurem-B, Zekrom, and tank Ho-Oh without any hazards. It is also the best item to use against His top defensive checks. If the Speed of Jolly is favored, Life Orb is recommended to compensate for its reduced power in comparison with Adamant.</p><p>For those that prefer a more tactical approach, Lum Berry is useful for its one-time status protection. This is particularly helpful for its utility in lead and SmashPass situations. However, the power loss is substantial; without the boost from Silk Scarf or Life Orb, Arceus is unable to OHKO many Pokemon like Palkia and Mewtwo without sufficient entry hazard support. For those that wish to maximize Arceus's staying power, Leftovers takes full advantage of His bulk. It works particularly well with a bulkier spread in combination with Recover. Power Herb can be used alongside Shadow Force and Stealth Rock support to always get past Lugia and specially defensive Giratina, but is otherwise very specific and does not boost damage. (Do we really need this mention of Power Herb?)</p>

<p>Although the given coverage moves are generally the most reliable, these slots are extremely flexible. A Life Orb-boosted Overheat incinerates Skarmory, Sableye, and Bronzong under sun, but is next to useless under rain. If Life Orb is forgone, Fire Blast is a better option while also having increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its increased power against Giratina and Giratina-O, but loses utility against Lugia and Ghost Arceus. Grass Knot 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon on the switch, but restricts coverage substantially. Similarly, Safeguard can prevent status for multiple turns, while Substitute eases prediction, protects against status, and punishes offensive revenge killers.</p>

<p>Two approaches exist to counteract Arceus's wake of destruction counter Arceus: defensive titans walls and offensive revenge killers. (Defensive titans = walls. "Offensive" is redundant when it comes to "revenge killers") defensive titans Walls consist of very bulky Toxic stallers, phazers, or Will-O-Wisp abusers. Offensive revenge killers consist of Pokemon that can survive at least one of His faster boosted attacks comfortably yet deal considerable damage back. (Give a couple of examples for each?) Nevertheless, no approach is guaranteed. In this sense, Arceus is quite specialized; He might be able to overpower several checks with a given moveset, but He is unable to overpower everything. (Not really needed) As such, against defensive titans walls, the best support is to weaken any defensive Pokemon capable of dealing with His specialization walling Arceus beforehand. Luring these Pokemon out and sufficiently damaging them will make the most of His sweeping abilities. Pokemon such as Blaziken, Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza can make excellent lures, since Arceus's defensive answers are often used in response to these threats. Powerful wallbreakers such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Latios, Mewtwo, and Reshiram can leave serious gaps in the opponent's team, possibly exposing these Pokemon as well as easing Arceus's sweep. Entry hazard shuffling is also quite beneficial in wearing them down both the damage and exposure element. Finally, specific answers that can come in on troublesome defensive Pokemon happen to be excellent teammates. Magnezone can easily trap and eliminate Skarmory. Xatu and stallbreaker Heatran are excellent answers against Wallceus. Giratina and Lugia greatly dislike Darkrai, Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W.</p>

<p>Regarding offensive revenge killers, the best support is to either weaken these revenge killers to the point where a faster boosted attack can OHKO, cripple their Speed, or reduce their offense to a more manageable level. Entry hazards are very helpful for their damaging properties; Pokemon such as Deoxys-S, Ferrothorn, and Groudon are excellent entry hazard users. Lures that are similarly revenged killed to Arceus, like Swords Dance Rayquaza or double status Darkrai, can either deal considerable damage or cripple with status. Proper weather control through Pokemon like Kyogre and Groudon is crucial as several revenge killers are dependent on it for Speed, such as Kabutops, (add comma) and Omastar, as well as their offense, such as and Choice Scarf Heatran. Dual Screens from Pokemon like Deoxys-S and Latios can be helpful for softening enemy assaults. Carrying specific answers to His revenge killers is also a wise choice. For instance, Wobbuffet can easily dispatch Choice Scarf users while also buying Him a turn to use Swords Dance if necessary. Of course, keeping Arceus healthy is an option as all revenge killers are unable to OHKO Him should He be at relatively high health.</p>

[SET]
name: Wallceus (Physical Wall)
move 1: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
move 2: Recover
move 3: Return
move 4: Roar / Perish Song
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Standing up to the might of fearsome Uber titans, Wallceus can function as a nearly unbreakable wall. His excellent bulk is already inclined to taking hits well; His Defense is so formidable that He is one of the best answers to the legendary Extreme Killer. Although His Normal typing isn't exactly the holy grail for defensive typing, He stands out from His other formes with a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers.</p>

<p>To keep the physical attackers at bay, Will-O-Wisp is the preferred option. It disables nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers&mdash;Groudon, Rayquaza, physical Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few&mdash;with a crippling burn. Will-O-Wisp also saps the afflicted opponent's HP, allowing Arceus to either outstall, phaze, or overpower the burned opponent. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon like Ho-Oh. If these issues are particularly bothersome, Reflect is a better another option if you want to protect Arceus against Ho-oh. Although it lasts only five turns and can be canceled by Brick Break, Reflect does not miss, benefits the whole team, and can affect physical attackers behind a Substitute. Recover provides reliable recovery and lengthens His staying power, while Return provides a solid STAB attack that increases offensive pressure. It also enables Him to defeat Extreme Killer without the need to phaze.</p><p>For His last slot, both options are useful for their utility against setup sweepers. Roar is the preferred option as it immediately phazes any threat that tries to set up, most notably physical attackers that have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. It also weakens most switch-ins provided there is sufficient entry hazard support. For those willing to take a longer approach, Perish Song is a better option. Although it takes three turns to have an effect, Perish Song will virtually guarantee an eventual switch and longer to force a switch, will place an inevitable end to last-Pokemon setup sweepers like Calm Mind Arceus.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As the physical attackers of the Uber metagame have such destructive potential, bulk investment is mandatory to effectively take them on. Heavy investment in physical bulk is necessary to successfully tank Extreme Killer’s ExtremeSpeed. As such, the given EVs and nature ensure maximum physical bulk while still allowing Him to outpace neutral base 90s.</p><p>Arceus can be specialized to outspeed certain key threats. Most notably, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature takes full advantage of His base 120 Speed. By outspeeding most physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, by lowering His bulk, Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits is diminished. It also makes Him significantly more vulnerable to faster attacks, most notably ExtremeSpeed.</p>

<p>Instead of running an attacking move, Wallceus can run a non-attacking move to provide additional utility. If status issues are particularly bothersome, Refresh is an excellent option. Status moves like Thunder Wave or Toxic improve His status arsenal, while Magic Coat reflects entry hazards, status moves, or Taunt when used with proper prediction. Stealth Rock is also usable as a last resort. However, these options forsake offensive pressure as well as increasing His vulnerability to Taunt users.</p><p>There are many alternatives to Arceus's given moveslots. From a defensive standpoint, Iron Defense can be used over Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. Although it does not cripple the physical attacker and is dependent on Arceus's continued presence, Iron Defense does not miss, cannot be canceled by Brick Break, has greater defensive potential, and does not depend on status. It is also the superior option against Extreme Killer; only faster Life Orb Brick Break variants are capable of overcoming Him. From an offensive standpoint, Judgment can be used over Return along with a Bold (or Timid) nature and Ice Beam as the last moveslot. Ice Beam has increased utility against those vulnerable to Ice-type attacks such as Groudon, Zekrom, Rayquaza, and Garchomp, but is less effective against setup sweepers that are not. Of course, there are several options over Return. Although ExtremeSpeed has reduced PP and Base Power, it bluffs Extreme Killer and provides valuable priority. Flamethrower with a Bold nature incinerates Ferrothorn and Forretress. Earthquake shatters Heatran, who would otherwise wall this set completely.</p>

<p>Although Wallceus is difficult to take down, He is not invincible. Despite His very good uninvested special bulk, the fact remains that Arceus is unspecialized against special attackers; it makes sense that (uninvested somes up the crossed bit pretty succinctly) extremely powerful special attacks from the likes of Kyogre and Kyurem-W can be an issue. Tanking strong Fighting-type attacks from Pokemon such as Fighting Arceus and Heracross is also problematic. In addition, Wallceus lacks wide offensive coverage, which means He will always be vulnerable against certain checks.</p><p>For teams that require a sturdy physical wall, Wallceus can be a fantastic choice. He provides excellent utility for dealing with physical setup sweepers, especially with access to Perish Song. However, because He is unspecialized against special attackers, Pokemon such as Kyogre, Chansey, Latias, Ho-Oh, and Lugia tend to be great teammates to take on special attackers. In particular, Calm Mind users are excellent partners, as provided Arceus is running Will-O-Wisp, any crippled physical attacker is significantly less threatening to their possible sweep. Wallceus also appreciates teammates that can take on His Fighting-type weakness. Giratina and Giratina-O are excellent examples, as not only do they pack an immunity to Arceus's lone weakness, but they also spinblock the hazards that He utilizes for wearing down the opponent's team. (what entry hazards? Wallceus does not set up any, Roar doesn't really count without other teammates) Speaking of hazards, Wallceus greatly dislikes opposing entry hazards, as they compromise His excellent bulk. (Mention how Wallceus itself is hazard bait) As such, Forretress is a great partner thanks to Rapid Spin, an immunity to Toxic, and its ability to provide entry hazards.</p>

[SET]
name: Bandceus (Choice Band) (Choice Band is sufficient)
move 1: Trick
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Swords Dance / Shadow Claw
move 4: Earthquake / Shadow Claw
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>As befitting a being of His stature, Arceus takes up His Choice Band to execute His judgment. The boost Choice Band immediately provides to an unboosted STAB ExtremeSpeed is astonishing, allowing Arceus to act as a remarkable revenge killer to threats such as Darkrai, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza. Yet Bandceus's value lies not in His revenge killing capabilities, but rather in His ability to lure the common checks of Extreme Killer.</p>
<p>All too often is Arceus assumed to be Extreme Killer, a fact that Bandceus bluffs and utilizes to devastating effect
. With one swift stroke, Arceus can Trick a Choice Band to the would-be check, granting an opportunity for another sweeper to press their newfound advantage. As after being Tricked a Choice Band, defensive answers like Skarmory and Lugia are turned into complete liabilities. However, Trick must be used with the utmost caution, for one wrong move will lead to the loss of surprise. As such, it is critical that prior to using Trick, double switching is used to confirm the intended target is actually sent in. (Again, useless fluff, while the last two sentences should be pretty self intuitive) <p>Arceus can use a Choice Band set to great effect. Not only can He use the additional power to revenge kill bulkier threats, but He can also Trick the Choice Band onto an unsuspecting wall that might this He is just an ordinary Extreme Killer.</p><p>Bandceus's The remaining slots are dependent on His intended role. If sweeping potential is desired after His Choice Band has been Tricked, Swords Dance and one additional coverage move allows Him to take on a persona similar to Extreme Killer, albeit limited in coverage. Coverage moves can include Earthquake, which deals with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon, or Shadow Claw, which deals with Ghost-types. If better coverage at the cost of sweeping potential is desired, both Earthquake and Shadow Claw combined will suffice.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Much like Extreme Killer, Bandceus Arceus doesn't have much reason to bother with Speed. The given EVs and nature grant Him a similar combination of maximum power, very good bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95 Speed Pokemon; this is crucial for revenging Swords Dance Rayquaza. 168 Speed EVs outspeed Jolly Rayquaza, while you can always run max Speed to speed other Arceus formes and outspeed Terrakion. But Bandceus Arceus just like Extreme Killer has a multitude of spreads that can be used.</p><p>Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. Most notably, 168 Spe EVs will outspeed positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza, while a Jolly nature with 252 Spe EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against opposing maximum Speed Arceus. Once this desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p> (If you've mentioned it already, you don't need to mention it again. A quick sentence should suffice)

<p>For those who prefer more power and PP, STAB Return can be used over ExtremeSpeed. It is capable of 2HKOing Lugia after Stealth Rock, but the loss of priority hinders His revenge capabilities, His sweeping potential, and His Extreme Killer disguise. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its chance of 2HKOing physically defensive Giratina-O after Stealth Rock, but loses utility against Ghost Arceus and Bronzong. Likewise, Punishment can be used for its utility against Calm Mind users such as Ghost Arceus, Giratina-O, and Latias, but is rather dependent on the opponent's boosts. For those seeking improved performance against Bronzong and Ferrothorn as well as the cancellation of screens, Brick Break can be used over Earthquake, though is otherwise much weaker in general. Speaking of low damage, Thunder Wave cripples would-be revenge killers, but cuts into coverage, doesn't do any damage, and doesn't exactly mesh well with a Choice Band.</p> (Thunder Wave is completely pointless with CB Arceus)

<p>When running Bandceus Choice Band Arceus, one must be very careful to avoid running an inferior Extreme Killer. Bandceus He has much less sweeping potential, so in order to justify His usage over Extreme Killer, it is critical that His lure and revenge killing capabilities are taken advantage of. As such, it is mandatory that He is paired up with offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of Extreme Killer's crippled checks,. Good examples range from for example, Blaziken, to Ho-Oh, and Groudon, and to Rayquaza. Regarding Arceus Himself, it is important to patch up any moveslot shortcomings. For example, should He be running Earthquake as His sole coverage move, some way of dealing with Giratina-O is essential. Of course, carrying teammates that specifically deal with His checks and counters is a very wise choice. For example, Latias deals with Fighting and Fire Arceus, while Giratina or Giratina-O have an immunity to His only weakness and can spinblock.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>With His extraordinary movepool, Multitype, and stats second to none, Arceus can fill almost any role. Besides all the options of His other formes, He has several options as a Normal-type. (More useless fluff, do not mention other formes in the Normal Arceus analysis) Perhaps He might run a Calm Mind or Work Up set to utilize His excellent stats. Perhaps He might run a Perish Trapping set thanks to Perish Song and Whirlpool. Perhaps He might run a dual screens set with Light Clay. Or perhaps He might even run a Choice Specs set, a specially inclined version of the Choice Band set. For all extents and purposes, the choice is entirely up to you.</p><p> Unfortunately, due to Species Clause, only a single Arceus is allowed on a team at a time. As such, the opportunity cost of running such a set other sets will be high. Indeed, these sets are unorthodox for a reason: the Calm Mind or Work Up set has horrible STAB in comparison to other Arceus formes; Perish Trapping is extremely unreliable in Ubers; dual screens is best left to other Pokemon, and the Choice Specs set lacks power, utility, and is rather pointless with the Choice Band set. That being said, if these sets are of particular interest, then feel free to use them.</p> (This bit was way too colloquial - Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps sounds like you're talking, not writing something - it may sounds catchy off the tongue, but it's not appropriate for a relatively formal analysis)

[Checks and Counters]

I'm sorry, this Checks and Counters section is just insane. I'm just going to rewrite the whole thing, there is absolutely no reason it needs to be this long

<p>Arceus has no true counter. With seventeen different formes to take into account, any attempt to find one will end in failure.</p>

<p>In order to defeat Arceus, identification is key. Every forme has different checks and counters specific to their respective sets. However, until His forme has been identified, it is wise to preserve any Arceus check and counter&mdash;<i>especially</i> Extreme Killer. After all, it does not pay to lose a check or counter that might have been your only salvation.</p>

<a id="more3" href="javascript:showAdditional(3)">Dealing with Extreme Killer &gt;&gt;&gt;</a>
<div id="additional3" style="display:none">
<p>Outside of Unaware Quagsire, there is no counter to Extreme Killer. With countless options at His disposal, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item. Still, there are four who are generally quite consistent at checking Extreme Killer: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia.</p>

<p>All four of these checks share two common characteristics: recovery and obscure weak points. They are all capable of either stalling Extreme Killer to death or phazing Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, all have certain flaws that prevent them from being considered counters. Toxic Skarmory falls to last-Pokemon +6 Life Orb Brick Breaks or non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts. Faster boosted Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are an issue should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a boosted Adamant Life Orb Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock.</p>

<p>Rather than pseudo-countering Extreme Killer, it is often easier to keep Him in check using multiple Pokemon through concerted means. For example, although Choice Scarf Terrakion cannot directly switch into an Earthquake, it can easily survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and revenge with Close Combat. However, should Extreme Killer manage to survive, a combination check can be used to finish Him off. Offensive Ghost Arceus is an excellent example of such a check, as His immunity to ExtremeSpeed allows Him to revenge heavily weakened Extreme Killer with Focus Blast or Brick Break. With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer despite the lack of a strict counter.</p>

<p>As every team is different, test out several checks to find an ideal combination. Thanks to priority Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play, Sableye is an excellent all-purpose check. However, it will lose to sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat or Lum Berry Earthquake variants after Stealth Rock. Support Ghost Arceus can be used in a similar manner to Wallceus, but the lack of Leftovers, a strong attacking move, and His weakness to Shadow Force and Shadow Claw makes Him the lesser check. Physically defensive Groudon and Hippowdon can act as very effective phazers, but are prone to being weakened and are poor options against last-Pokemon Extreme Killer or the obscure Grass Knot. Rock and Steel Arceus can also use a support set like Ghost Arceus, but the weakness to Earthquake and Brick Break is quite unfortunate. Likewise, Fighting Arceus favors an approach similar to Terrakion, but obtains reliable recovery and bulk at the cost of power and the resistance to ExtremeSpeed.</p>

<p>Although it is particularly vulnerable to Brick Break and sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat, a physically defensive Bronzong can stall most variants. Along the same lines as Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, other revenge killers can include Choice Scarf users such as Dialga and Heatran or Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Omastar. However, they are generally less effective due to weather dependency or lack of power.</p>

<p>A physically defensive Giratina-O can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. However, it has somewhat unreliable recovery and still gets 2HKOed past burn. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast, Overheat, and Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn can prove very annoying with Leech Seed and Iron Barb damage, but performs best when used as a combination check.</p>

<p>If all else fails, Choice Scarf users that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but will almost always result in the loss of the user. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can effectively stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to successfully defeat Him.</p>
</div>

<a id="more4" href="javascript:showAdditional(4)">Dealing with Wallceus &gt;&gt;&gt;</a>
<div id="additional4" style="display:none">
<p>When dealing with Wallceus, be cautious with your switches. He often carries Roar, so an untimely switch to a possible check or counter can lead to possible momentum loss. When combined with sufficient entry hazard support, checks can be weakened very fast. As such, counters must have reliable recovery or some way of preventing further phazing attempts. Fighting Arceus is by far the best counter thanks to His STAB Fighting-type attacks. Fire Arceus is also quite effective with His immunity to burn, but is more vulnerable to attrition and lacks Fighting Arceus's consistent damage. Despite the lack of reliable recovery, stallbreaker Heatran utterly walls any Wallceus that lacks the obscure Earthquake thanks to Taunt and Toxic.</p>

<p>Any other answer to Wallceus is either easily worn down, can be phazed before significant damage is done, or is vulnerable to Return. Magic Bounce Xatu can easily switch into any move besides Return after Stealth Rock or Ice Beam and proceed to completely wall Arceus. Heracross can take advantage of a possible Attack raise through Guts, allowing it to quickly pulverize Him with Close Combat. Reshiram and Victini roast Arceus with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W are particularly threatening due to Wallceus's lack of specialization against special attackers.</p>

<p>Should the weather be sun, Ho-Oh can switch into any move but Return after Stealth Rock and proceed to deal considerable damage with sun-boosted Sacred Fire. However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost. Support Pokemon with Toxic, preferably with a method of alleviating status, can be quite effective against Wallceus. However, they are significantly less viable against Refresh variants.</p>
</div>

<a id="more5" href="javascript:showAdditional(5)">Dealing with Bandceus &gt;&gt;&gt;</a>
<div id="additional5" style="display:none">
<p>Outside of prior knowledge, it is very difficult to stop Bandceus from achieving His primary goal&mdash;luring. In order to avoid unfortunate complications, any counter to Bandceus must have some way of dealing with Trick. In general, any bulky Arceus that carries a plate and lacks notable weaknesses to His attacks will easily counter Him thanks to an immunity to Trick and reliable recovery. Of these, Ghost and Fighting Arceus stand out with their immunity to ExtremeSpeed and STAB Fighting-type Judgment respectively. Likewise, physically defensive Giratina-O is also a very good answer thanks to an immunity to both ExtremeSpeed and Earthquake.</p>

<p>Despite the use of Trick, many of Extreme Killer's checks still apply. Although Terrakion cannot directly switch into Earthquake, is vulnerable to attrition, and might lose its own chosen item, it can easily revenge Arceus with a Choice Band-boosted Close Combat. Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor are also great answers thanks to Superpower. Swift Swim Kabutops and Omastar under rain are similar to Terrakion with Low Kick and Hydro Pump, though Omastar loathes Choice Band. Likewise, Rock and Steel Arceus can be used in a similar manner to Ghost and Fighting Arceus, but cannot directly switch into Earthquake.</p>

<p>As mentioned earlier, thanks to Trick, many of Extreme Killer's checks are significantly less effective. For example, Skarmory, Wallceus, Lugia, and Giratina all hate being Tricked a Choice Band. That being said, as a general rule, all these checks become viable should Bandceus have a non-crippling item.</p>


New checks and counters section:

[Checks and Counters]

<p>As a rule of thumb, should one see Arceus on Team Preview, make sure you rule out the presence of ExtremeKiller before you let any of your key checks be in danger. While Arceus is impossible to totally counter with its wide movepool, a few Pokemon stand out as Pokemon that can counter most Normal Arceuses. Skarmory, Lugia, and Giratina stand out as three Pokemon that can pretty much brave any assault on Extreme Killer Arceus can dish out and force Him out, as well as cripple Him with status. They do, however, need to watch out for the odd Choice Band Arceus, lest they are Tricked a Choice Band, and Skarmory needs to watch out for sun boosted Overheats and Fire Blasts. RestTalk shuffler Giratina-O with heavy investment in bulk gets a special mention as it can check pretty much all of Normal Arceus's sets. It can take a boosted Shadow Claw and force Extreme Killer out, can use Rest to cure any burns, and is immune to Trick.</p>

<p>Ferrothorn will prove a nuisance with Leech Seed and Protect should Arceus lack a Fire-type move or Brick Break. Bronzong is immune to Earthquake and is neutral to Shadow Claw and Brick Break. In exchange, it can use Toxic to cripple Arceus and hit Him relatively hard with Gyro Ball. Support Ghost, Rock, and Steel Arceus can at the worst speed tie with Extreme Killer and burn it with Will-O-Wisp, although they need to watch out for Lum Berry variants. Rock and Steel Arceus are both also relatively poor against Jolly Extreme Killer, since factoring in accuracy, they will only have a 37.5% chance of pulling off a successful Will-O-Wisp before they get pummeled by a boosted Earthquake. Sableye can use its Prankster ability to burn Arceus before He can do anything, and discourages further boosting by dealing heavy damage in return with Foul Play. It does, however, lose to Lum Berry variants using Earthquake. While Forretress needs to watch out for Overheat, it can use Toxic to cripple Arceus, while using Pain Split to keep itself. It will still lose 1v1 against Lum Berry Arceus, though, although Arceus Himself will be severely weakened. Groudon can tank a boosted ExtremeSpeed and force Arceus out with Dragon Tail. Hippowdon works similarly to Groudon with the added perk of being able to recover its health. Physically defensive Ho-oh can also tank an ExtremeSpeed if Stealth Rock is not up and burn Arceus with Sacred Fire, or force Him out with Whirlwind, while switching out to regain health via Regenerator. Choice Band Landorus-T can Intimidate Arceus, tank an ExtremeSpeed from Him at full health, and OHKO with Superpower after Stealth Rock damage. If Arceus is not holding a Life Orb, then Choice Band Scizor can also tank a hit and OHKO with Superpower after Stealth Rock. Be adviced that both Landorus and Scizor need to be in absolute mint condition to be able to tank that hit from Extreme Killer. Fighting Arceus can also tank a boosted ExtremeSpeed and OHKO in return with STAB Judgment. As an honourable mention, Unaware Quagsire completely walls any Extreme Killer set that does not carry Grass Knot.</p>

<p>The other way to defeat Extreme Killer is through revenge killing Him. This is not an easy feat as ExtremeSpeed bypasses attempts to outspeed Arceus, which means they need to be either immune to or resists ExtremeSpeed. Furthermore, most of these revenge killers cannot actually OHKO a healthy Arceus. However, for offensive teams relying on offensive pressure, if Arceus takes damage as He is setting up, this is usually enough, making Extreme Killer easier to deal with than He appears. Choice Scarf Terrakion is possibly the most reliable revenge killer to Arceus. With a resistance to ExtremeSpeed and acceptable bulk, it can OHKO max HP Arceus with a layer of Stealth Rock and Spikes. Choice Band or Life Orb Terrakion can OHKO any Extreme Killer variant that don't use a Jolly nature. Other revenge killers are weather dependent. Choice Specs Omastar outspeeds Arceus in the rain and OHKOes with Hydro Pump. Choice Band Kabutops can OHKO max HP Extreme Killer with Low Kick after Stealth Rock damage. Other revenge killers requires some more prior damage to be able to revenge kill Extreme Killer. Choice Scarf Dialga does 53.97% - 63.95% to 240 HP Extreme Killer, so if you can give it some prior damage, Dialga will OHKO Arceus. Choice Scarf Heatran does 66.21% - 78.23% to the same Arceus in the sun. Ghost Arceus can 2HKO Extreme Killer with Focus Blast, and avoids being OHKOed by Shadow Claw, provided Extreme Killer is not holding a Life Orb, and that Focus Blast doesn't miss. Adamant Choice Band Arceus can 2HKO opposing Extreme Killers that do not run a Jolly nature after Stealth Rock damage, so long as you run enough Speed. Choice Scarf Gengar can do 51.25% - 60.32% to 240 HP Extreme Killer, and worst Trick it its Choice Scarf to lock it into Shadow Claw. Excadrill can finish off weakened Extreme Killers with Earthquake.</p>

<p>It should be noted that the physical attackers that attempt to revenge kill Extreme Killer should watch out for a potential burn from Wallceus. It is generally a lot safer to assume that a Normal Arceus is Extreme Killer though, since He is a lot less threatening as Wallceus. He lacks offensive presence when using that set. A surprise Toxic or burn will neuter His defense very easily, while He is, in general, entry hazard bait. A layer or two of Toxic Spikes would mean Wallceus is not a very sturdy wall at all. Otherwise, smacking Him hard with Pokemon that do not mind being burned is the best way to go. As bulky as Arceus is, He cannot stomach rain boosted Water-type attacks from Kyogre or Palkia, nor can He take sun boosted Blue Flares from Reshiram, or Choice Specs boosted attacks in general. Choice Band Terrakion does not care about Arceus's inflated Defense either, since Close Combat will still OHKO. Heracross does not care about Will-O-Wisp burns due to Guts and KOes with Close Combat. Fighting Arceus can Calm Mind in Wallceus's face and OHKO it with Judgment. Keldeo is also able to OHKO Wallceus with Focus Blast.</p>

<p>One very important thing to remember when battling Normal Arceus, while He may seem very difficult to counter on paper, He is rather easy to stop in practice. While Arceus can set up relatively easily and is difficult to revenge kill, one should realise that compared to many other Uber Pokemon, He is actually rather weak. ExtremeSpeed only has 80 Base Power, while most of his other coverage moves such as Brick Break and Shadow Claw are weaker still. He will find it difficult to break through defensive teams that will likely have entry hazards and phazing. While it may seem offensive teams may have difficulty taking Arceus down, as long as offensive pressure is kept, it is impossible for Arceus to set up without taking enough damage that your revenge killers can easily take out. Arceus is only dangerous in the late game when your team has been considerably weakened.</p>
 
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shrang

Kylowole is shredded
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#38
Okay, I'm finished doing the concision. First things first, don't you ever make me have to do that again. I don't want to have to wait a year for an analysis, and then I have to end up cleaning it up afterwards.

Anyway, things I need to address:

In general:
This analysis was way too over the top and full of unnecessary fluff and flavour. If you imagine this analysis to be a fancy dinner, you just poured a cup full of salt, spices and what not into that dish. Long story short, it tastes horrible. Flavour is nice when you add a little bit of it, not when you fill every sentence with flowery language. Shakespeare once said that "brevity is the soul of wit". No piece of writing, whether it be an essay, a novel, a Pokemon analysis is done well when you repeat things over and over again, or when you spend 3 lines in what I can explain in one. If what you are saying does not give any relevant information, don't write it! There are parts in the analysis where you appeared to have said something in a very in an extremely over the top and verbose way, and then repeated exactly what you just said in layman's terms. Why not just write it in layman's terms? Why must you include that first fluffy bit? It does not make you sound poetic, it just makes you sound annoying.

Overview:
Now, I know when we were revamping the overviews, we were looking to include more than just fluff in them. Now, I know you added some information in, but in exchange you added 3 times as much fluff for the relevant information that you put in. I want you to include what Arceus's pros and cons as well. You've mentioned that Arceus is an excellent late game cleaner and can also serve as a wall. How about adding in that he has poor defensive synergy and is actually very easily stopped as well? How about putting in that by having Ekiller, you're compromising your team because you can't run an Arceus forme that better caters your team's defensive synergy? This is what you need to be mentioning in an overview, not about how pure and magnificent Arceus is.

Extreme Killer:
Most of the stuff are I what I put in comments in red. Apart from the fluff and unnecessary words words words, I'd like you to mention:
- Swords Dance Rayquaza is quite common now - Bump the Speed up to 56 Spe EVs please
- Why Shadow Force is such a trade-off to Shadow Claw. Mention that Shadow Force is incredibly easy to play around because your opponent can foil it through switching between immunities and resists, as well as foiling it through Substitute (eg on Lugia).
- Explain why Speed-tieing other Arceus formes (especially the Will-O-Wisp variants) is important. Explain that it makes them incredibly unreliable if all they are doing is relying on a speed tie as well as a move that has 75% accuracy.
- Power Herb is a gimmick, IMO. You can keep it in there, but personally, I don't see its value.
- Give some specific examples of walls that stop Arceus as well as revenge killers. It would be if the reader can read the first sentence and know immediately what they need to deal with, and then how to deal with it, not have to read the (extremely long winded) paragraph before knowing how to do it.

Wallceus:
- Not bad. You got most things, although I do want you to go into how Wallceus is heavy hazard bait.

Choice Band:
- While I know "Bandceus" is relatively okay as an abbreviation, this is a formal analysis which means you should be used to writing "Choice Band Arceus". Wallceus is okay because it is now a fully accepted name for the set, much like "Crocune", but I don't think "Bandceus" is yet. I may be wrong, but I don't think it should be used. We don't use stuff like "SpecsKyu" for Specs Kyurem-W. We call him "Choice Specs Kyurem-W" in our analyses.

Checks and Counters:
- I completely rewrote this. I don't know what you were doing, but we don't need to separate Arceus's counters list into multiple sections, each with about 5+ paragraphs in them. The entire point of paragraphs already does this. Arceus is not that special that it deserves an entire separate analysis going into how to counter it.


I'm sorry if I'm coming out harsh here, Superimp, but I think you should understand why I'd be cranky if you've reserved an analysis for an entire year and when you finally finish, I need to come in here and clean it up like this. I can just imagine what it would be like for the poor GP checker if I hadn't come in and cut out as much as I did. I think this all stems from the fact that you strive to make all of your analyses really colourful. In a sense, that is a good thing that you have such an ambition to make your writing nice to read. However, it completely oversteps what is needed. Everything is bad in excess, and your fluffing up of these analyses is no different. If you just wrote a perfectly normal essay that stated facts, then you'd probably have finished this (and Latias) within 2-3 months and we'd all be much happier. Sometimes what makes something better is when you cut out stuff that are unnecessary. Our brains develop many neurons as we develop, but as we mature into adulthood, our neuron count decreases as more specific connections are formed. The same thing works for writing. Writing something in as little words as possible while retaining 100% of its meaning is a skill. Poetry becomes more meaningful when cut words out, not when you add more in. If I want you to take anything out of this analysis, it is that Shakespearean quote I alluded to earlier, which is "brevity is the soul of wit".
 
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Worldtour

aka Swamp-Rocket
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#39
imo Checks and Counters is still a bit on the lengthy side. <1000 Words is probably the longest C&C I have ever seen (It's only 150 words shorter than the previous one) with some checks being mentioned repeatedly (such as Terrakion). There are some iffy Pokemon in that section too - Choice Scarf Dialga/Heatran/Gengar, Unaware Quagsire, or Heracross are either very shaky checks if any prior damage has been taken, rare, or not very good in general. These are a few examples, but I think there may be more. When I read an analysis I want to see common Pokemon in the tier that can deal with it that I may easily be able to stick onto my team, not something that is not guaranteed to work or even semi-reliable at it or something that does nothing rather than check it (Quagsire)

Maybe those are just my thoughts, but it still needs to be trimmed down imo.
 
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Furai

we will become who we are meant to be
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
#40
I actually support the mention of many checks in C&C. Arceus is such a big part of the metagame, and more importantly, a big part of the ladder. The Ubers newcomer wants to see as many checks and counters as possible in order to adapt to this obscure metagame, as Ubers is nothing like any other tier. I do agree that there are some shaky ones such as Quagsire and Gengar, but Scarf Dialga, Heatran, and Heracross are all indeed capable of beating Arceus. Dialga can KO EKiller after prior damage, Heracross beats Wallceus with Guts, and Heatran beats both. I have expressed my opinion regarding the iffy ones over a google doc which Superimp has seen. Maybe some sort of concision could be done. Maybe. I don't think it should come with the price of removing viable checks though.
 
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Melee Mewtwo

Banned deucer.
#41
Can you at least update us with what is going on @Superimp ? I know there is a PM conversation going on between you and Shrang but it's really hard for the rest of the QC team to be involved when he has to relay everything to the rest of us. (and then he's the only one who can respond back to you etc.) If anything, you can just hop on IRC (I have a mibbit link in my sig) and odds are there'll be two or three of us on that we can discuss it together. It's helped a lot before with other sub-par writers and hopefully it'll do the same here so we can have this finished sometime before a year into XY.

Maybe some sort of concision could be done. Maybe.
I'm still loling at this. When an analysis for Arceus-Normal is saying stupid shit like "With seventeen formes to take into account" or treating it like it has no counters just because you can't find a single answer to every viable set or possible gimmick crap it can run (if we did that with everything else almost nothing would have counters), I'm pretty sure a lot of concision can be done. (hint: yes, it can)
 
#42
Despite a few misunderstandings (that I created) getting a bit out of hand, rest assured that they are now fully resolved. The main OP has been updated; here is the current word count of the analysis:
Overview: 120
Extreme Killer: 1168
Wallceus: 889
Bandceus: 625
Other Options: 203
Checks and Counters: 969
TOTAL: 3974
Thanks for the fourth QC check Furai! And thanks shrang/Melee Mewtwo for all your feedback. For reference purposes, I have attached the relevant discussion (NOTE: tags might be glitchy; I'm still trying to fix them):
Superimp said:
Even better, I’ll get it done today!

I finally finished responding to all your comments Furai; my response is below. Thanks for all your detailed suggestions; I imagine the quality of this analysis is much improved :toast:. All relevant polishing has now been implemented; the link to the amended analysis is after the comments.

Response to Furai’s Comments (Hide Tags are back!):
Furai said:
did you consider 56 spe evs for main? it actually is somewhat big as it prevents being revenge killed by SD rayquaza, which can save you the game
One of the great aspects of using Extreme Killer is that He has a wide variety of viable EV spreads, all of which are effective in their own unique way. However, this aspect is a bit double-edged given the difficulty of “choosing” a main EV spread among several perfectly viable EV spreads; this is a fact that I personally ensured was emphasized when writing this analysis.

For example, you believe 200 HP / 252 Atk+ / 56 Spe to be an ideal main EV spread for Extreme Killer. I also think it’s an excellent choice for the main EV spread; I believe outspeeding Adamant Rayquaza is very wise and have used this spread several times to great results. However, that doesn’t mean other players believe it’s a great EV spread. Take for example Poppy:
Poppy said:
I really don't see much value in outspeeding Rayquaza as its ExtremeSpeed does 24-29%, this is 252 Atk, Life Orb, Jolly Rayquaza. There are even weaker variants that use only 40 Attack EVs.
In other words, everyone sees Extreme Killer differently. And this is perfectly fine; this is one of the many aspects that make Extreme Killer Extreme Killer.

While writing this analysis, I structured it so that when main EV spread was given, it was given as a starting point. In other words, 16 Spe EVs is the bare minimum Speed that He should probably run. From this point on, complete control is granted to the reader in the most intuitive way possible; if you want to outspeed a certain threat, then simply add the sufficient Speed EVs. This also has the added bonus of keeping Speed creep to a minimum. In this sense, the given EV spread of 240 HP / 252 Atk+ / 16 Spe provides the best opportunity for the readers to develop their own Arceus, to decide for themselves whether or not they wish to outspeed a certain threat. And with a Pokemon like Extreme Killer, I imagine this is an ideal course of action.

That being said, if there are certain Speed tiers that you would like emphasized (i.e. outspeeding SD Rayquaza’s ExtremeSpeed), then I have no problem with doing so. And of course, Bandceus’s main EV spread is an entirely different story...

Furai said:
these aren't really bulky lol
I agree (Although to be honest, according to the Defense tiers, they actually range from mediocre to decent physical bulk :p). The sentence has been reworded.

Furai said:
you should probably mention that higher speed stat means much less bulk, which can actually be p big in the case of arceus
Implemented.

Furai said:
Lum Berry beats SmashPass! Palkia and Mewtwo cannot OHKO a bulky Arceus either (unboosted in Mewtwo's case). surely they'll leave a dent but the WOW 1 turn immunty is p big, so you might want to expand on that too
I originally had more elaboration on Lum Berry (Lead situations against stuff like Darkrai, SmashPass, etc.), but it was removed for length reasons. However, as some of the implications of “one-time status protection” might not be readily obvious to every player, I have no problem with reimplementing it. However, it might be a bit brief as I trying to keep this section within reasonable length.

Concerning Palkia and Mewtwo, their mentions were entirely arbitrary. Whether Palkia/Mewtwo are capable of OHKOing Arceus I imagine is irrelevant; the point is that running Lum Berry can lead to substantial power loss. In other words, if a Pokemon with mediocre/average physical bulk (By Uber standards) is capable of surviving a boosted ExtremeSpeed, then that ExtremeSpeed isn’t exactly strong. It is critical for the reader to understand this, as unless this power loss is accounted for (i.e. entry hazards, significant weakening of the opposing team, etc.), the item will most likely disappoint.

Furai said:
other than canceling SS dmg it doesn't do anything else big though
I agree; Leftovers is a more subtle item. This is why the only thing I personally added was that it maximizes Arceus’s staying power by taking full advantage of His bulk. Anything else (Paired with Recover, EV elaboration, etc.) was at the insistence of members like firecape and barry4ever; I saw no reason to why I shouldn’t implement it.

Furai said:
expand: forry, skarmer, groudon, gira-o, etc
I originally had significant elaboration on entry hazard shuffling, but due to length reasons, I had to cut it down :(.

Furai said:
i dunno, this part seems lacking when compared to the offensive one. if you could add like another counter to each it would be great. magnezone is iffy lol, but it works i guess. mixed DD quaza can catch skarmory off guard, and kyogre drowns wallceus completely. just ideas, they're probably not the best, but they work. feel free to put here everything you'd like and we'll discuss it
I know it’s Magnezone, but as it’s the best answer (and has an analysis), I think it’s only fair to keep it here. It is true that lures are excellent against Skarmory; however, in order to minimize repetition, I neglected to repeat lures again.

Xatu was implemented for Wallceus.

Furai said:
add: quaza/kyogre/groudon as examples
It is generally assumed that when one talks about weather control in Ubers, those three come up. However, I guess it could be made more explicit, so they have been implemented.

Furai said:
but not necessary
Fixed.

Furai said:
does that really belong here? IF it's kepy move it to checks and counters but honestly quaggy isn't good at all n_n
Quagsire 100% deserves a mention given that it is the best answer to Extreme Killer bar none. I imagine its supposed viability in Ubers is irrelevant; as Quagsire is the only counter to Extreme Killer, the reader deserves to know.

As such, I’ll probably move it to the C&C section to increase awareness and to reduce the length of the Extreme Killer section.

Furai said:
and rayquaza!
Yes, Wallceus is certainly a good answer against Rayquaza (Although 156 HP / 180 Def / 4 SpA / 168 Spe Arceus-Ghost with Ice Beam is much better; it’s too bad it has significant opportunity cost). In fact, I think you’ll see Rayquaza mentioned later on!

Furai said:
for the rest of the match
Fixed.

Furai said:
BP chains too
Mentioning BP chains might be a bit awkward given that they can run Soundproof Pokemon, which I would then have to explain. As such, I ended up just mentioning how Perish Song guarantees a switch (though this isn’t strictly true, given that a player could just stay in and suffer the consequences) and how it puts an end to last-Pokemon setup sweepers.

Furai said:
Magic Coat should also be mentioned here imo, really useful vs Deo-S and such
Great idea Furai! Magic Coat has been implemented.

Furai said:
lol ok hahaha
I know certain members have issues regarding Will-O-Wisp. As such, I am providing them with a usable alternative that I imagine they will find much more attractive. Whether they will actually run it remains to be seen :p.

Furai said:
why both?
It’s a relic of the previous analysis (and that many members like trickroom and shrang apparently found success with it). As Ice Beam (AC move in question) is a special attack, I imagine it makes sense to pair it up with Judgment plus a Bold (or Timid) nature. Then again, I suppose Wallceus could just run Ice Beam by itself and subsequently keep the very useful Roar/Perish Song…

Furai said:
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I know it’s Heracross, but since it’s a viable answer (and has an analysis), I think it’s only fair to keep it here for the time being.

Furai said:
expand about spinning a bit more, hazards really hinder wallceus's functionality
Implemented.

Furai said:
trick should be first move as per last sentence of first paragraph of this set's SC
Fixed.

Furai said:
same 56 spe
Given that Bandceus places more emphasis on revenge killing threats such as Rayquaza, setting the main EV spread as 200 HP / 252 Atk+ / 56 Spe is a very good idea. This is because it is likely Bandceus will be used to revenge +2 SD Rayquaza, where ExtremeSpeed can actually do a lot of damage unless it’s outsped.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza ExtremeSpeed vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 237-279 (53.74 - 63.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 222-262 (63.24 - 74.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As such, I have no problem with changing this EV spread (and subsequent paragraphs). However, take note that this EV spread will be different from Extreme Killer, which I imagine will probably elicit the attention of the other QC members.

Furai said:
change to immediate boost, it's a big part of CB!
Currently, I imagine an immediate boost is implied in that very sentence. However, it definitely could be made more explicit, so it has been reworded.

Furai said:
expand on this situation a bit more imo, like just how it cripples its counters (giratina locked to rest, skarmory to whirlwind or something) etc
It is generally understood that when a Pokemon gets Tricked a Choice item, that Pokemon will then be locked to their subsequent move. However, I’ll see what I can do.

Furai said:
i'd also expand a bit on how to use trick. you need to buy your opponent's trust first that this is an extreme killer first, which is done by the moveset. next, you need to confirm that whatever you want to be tricked is actually sent in. so double switching might be crucial here: say you're facing a ghost arc and a skarmer and you want skarmer gone. you'd first go to something like kyogre or darkrai to force ghost arc out, making the better option to counter arceus with skarmory. this case is pretty specific but it makes the point understandable. tl;dr - don't be reckless w/ trick
I originally had something like this (double switching, watching possible damage output, etc.), but took it out as it became quite convoluted. I’ll see what I can do.

Furai said:
and the ekiller disguise
The disguise aspect has been implemented.

Furai said:
latias is irrelevant imo, where is ghost arc :p
Here are the relevant damage calculations:
252+ Atk Choice Band Arceus-Normal Punishment (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias: 370-436 (101.64 - 119.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 0 SpA Soul Dew Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Normal: 202-238 (45.8 - 53.96%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO

+1 208 SpA Soul Dew Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Normal: 243-286 (55.1 - 64.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Arceus-Normal Punishment (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 290-342 (65.31 - 77.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Arceus-Normal Punishment (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 290-342 (75.91 - 89.52%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 4 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Normal: 260-306 (58.95 - 69.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Normal: 316-374 (71.65 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
CM Latias was mentioned given that Punishment always OHKOes after CM (and that Bandceus can tank a hit if He must). Ghost Arceus was originally mentioned, but He was removed given that Bandceus takes considerable damage from Focus Blast. However, Bandceus’s Punishment is far more damaging, so I guess He could act as a fine revenge killer in a pinch. A specific mention of Ghost Arceus would also give another notable example of Punishment’s utility -> He has been reimplemented.

Furai said:
needs a bit of rewording, it makes it seem like you're fighting them by canceling screens. i get your point but it's not really
The sentence has been reworded.

Furai said:
the checks and counters section relates to the single pokemon in the analysis. you need to reword this to something like "once identified that arceus is normal via team preview or actually seeing it" or something. the points you bring up are fantastic, but you need to be a bit more specific. you may keep them but relate more to the pokemon of the analysis.
This is intentional; the analysis relates to not only Arceus-Normal but also Arceus as a whole. This is because “Arceus-Normal” is the base condition of Arceus, so it makes sense to mention these details in particular (Hence why this analysis is the only Arceus analysis that discusses the previously unmentioned details of Multitype, the opportunity cost of running orthodox Arceus sets, etc.). In fact, I’m going to see if I can get the onsite page to change from “Arceus-Normal” to “Arceus” given that it better follows game mechanics (Which I imagine is very important to Smogon) and Pokemon Showdown’s teambuilder/interface (Which I imagine is important for consistency).

That being said, this section could definitely benefit from some rewording to emphasize Arceus as a Normal type in particular (Given that this is the main point of the analysis); Extreme Killer has been emphasized.

Furai said:
ummmmm i'd cut the first 2 sentences of 2nd para and make them into a new paragraph, explaining the specific details of said counters.
I originally had two paragraphs devoted to said best defensive checks, but the C&C section became ridiculous long. Would you mind if I just slightly elaborated instead?

Furai said:
maybe add WOW's shaky accuracy
Implemented.

Conversation between Superimp and Furai said:
Superimp: Giratina also loses to last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, but I left this out. Do you think I should readd it?

Furai: yeah you should, it's likely to happen
Reimplemented.

Furai said:
might want to mention "apply high pressure" somewhere here, it makes things more understandable
Good idea; it has been implemented.

Furai said:
wow missing here too
I imagine it's implied through previous Wallceus mention. I didn’t want to mention it in particular given that Ghost Arceus can run Reflect (can’t be canceled by Brick Break) or Iron Defense (The option for people who hate Will-O-Wisp or Reflect).

Furai said:
slack off + sand storm is really cool vs ekiller might want to add that somewhere
I originally had that, but cut it out for length reasons :(. It's definitely true though!

Furai said:
might want to explain that a bit
Yeah, I’ll probably reword.

Furai said:
add: judgment doing a whole lot of dmg
I originally had that, but cut it out for length reasons. Instead, I compared it to Terrakion, which should hopefully imply that it does a lot of damage (though less).

Furai said:
add: all 4 can hit ekiller super hard with respective moves
I originally had that, but cut it out for length reasons. Instead, I compared it to Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, which should hopefully imply that they do lots of damage.

Furai said:
if physically defensive it's not a guaranteed win for ekiller
Here’s how the matchup plays out Furai:

1. Extreme Killer uses Swords Dance. Forretress switches in, gets SR damage (if applicable), and then gets one turn of Leftovers (if applicable).
2. Extreme Killer uses Swords Dance again. Forretress uses Toxic, but gets negated by Lum Berry. Forretress gets one turn of Leftovers (if applicable).
3. Extreme Killer uses Earthquake. Here’s the damage calculation:
+4 252+ Atk Arceus-Normal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 192-227 (54.23 - 64.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Forretress has two options here -> use Toxic or spam Pain Split. If it uses Toxic, it’ll put a timer on Extreme Killer but will still lose. If it uses Pain Split, it’ll do A LOT of damage, but will still lose (NOTE: A smart Forretress player would spam Pain Split a bit and then use Toxic for maximum effect...)

Basically, it’s very likely that Forretress will lose to a properly played Lum Berry Extreme Killer with Earthquake, though it will still “cripple” with Toxic. Note that Forretress is perfectly conserved and 252 HP / 252 Def+; this is very rare for obvious reasons.

NOTE: I made a quick replay if you want to see this “Pain Split” matchup in person. It features Pain Split used on a full HP Extreme Killer and a severely damaged Extreme Killer. Stealth Rock is there to show how its damage is irrelevant. If you want to see more intelligent Forretress usage, this replay shows Forretress utilizing Toxic & Pain Split on a full HP Extreme Killer to great effect (though still losing).

Furai said:
power whip/gyro and possibly toxic too
I originally had that, but cut it out for length reasons. As Ferrothorn is more of a combination check, I sought to emphasize the traits that made it ideal for such a role AKA Leech Seed and Iron Barbs.

Furai said:
add: it is usually best to phaze ekiller if you have entry hazards down due to WOW's miss chance and its amazing bulk.
I’ll see if I can sneak this in somewhere.

Furai said:
the rare Dragon Claw, it makes people think tina-o is not a good check to that. it's a brilliant one, but of course you must figure first it's not using dclaw
I originally had something like this, but given that Bandceus has ~1% usage for Arceus-Normal, it’s kind of hard to determine if Dragon Claw is supposedly rare on Bandceus :p. I’ll see what I can do to deemphasize it (Hint: check the AC for Bandceus)

Furai said:
mention that they're both faster in rain and hit hard w/ respective moves, that's why they're special
Implemented.

Furai said:
add somewhere (not here, maybe new paragraph): once arceus has tricked its CB away, it is free to pick a new move. this reduces confusion when arceus receives another choice item. people then stay in, fail to KO arceus, and get wrecked in return.
I’ll try rewording it to make it a bit less misleading.

Furai said:
i forgot to add this in the comments, but you should probably mention in checks and counters that as last resort option, scarfers that are resistant to espeed can work, like genesect
Explosion implemented. I can implement more stuff if you would like.

LINK REDACTED. Any better?
Furai said:
Looks good, QC 4/3
Superimp said:
I finally finished responding to all your comments shrang; my response is below.
shrang said:
- Swords Dance Rayquaza is quite common now - Bump the Speed up to 56 Spe EVs please

(…)

- Explain why Speed-tieing other Arceus formes (especially the Will-O-Wisp variants) is important. Explain that it makes them incredibly unreliable if all they are doing is relying on a speed tie as well as a move that has 75% accuracy.
One of the great aspects of using Extreme Killer is that He has a wide variety of viable EV spreads, all of which are effective in their own unique way. However, this aspect is a bit double-edged given the difficulty of “choosing” a main EV spread among several perfectly viable EV spreads; this is a fact that I personally ensured was emphasized when writing this analysis.

For example, you believe 200 HP / 252 Atk+ / 56 Spe to be an ideal main EV spread for Extreme Killer. I also think it's an excellent choice for the main EV spread; I believe outspeeding Adamant Rayquaza is very wise and have used this spread several times to great results. However, that doesn't mean other players believe it's a great EV spread. Take for example Poppy:
Poppy said:
I really don't see much value in outspeeding Rayquaza as its ExtremeSpeed does 24-29%, this is 252 Atk, Life Orb, Jolly Rayquaza. There are even weaker variants that use only 40 Attack EVs.
In other words, everyone sees Extreme Killer differently. And this is perfectly fine; this is one of the many aspects that make Extreme Killer Extreme Killer.

While writing this analysis, I structured it so that when main EV spread was given, it was given as a starting point. In other words, 16 Spe EVs is the bare minimum Speed that He should probably run. From this point on, complete control is granted to the reader in the most intuitive way possible; if you want to outspeed a certain threat, then simply add the sufficient Speed EVs. This also has the added bonus of keeping Speed creep to a minimum. In this sense, the given EV spread of 240 HP / 252 Atk+ / 16 Spe provides the best opportunity for the readers to develop their own Arceus, to decide for themselves whether or not they wish to outspeed a certain threat. And with a Pokemon like Extreme Killer, I imagine this is an ideal course of action.

That being said, I have no problem with emphasizing certain Speed tiers such as max Speed Arceus. However, it might be a bit brief as I'm trying to keep the analysis within reasonable length.

NOTE: According to July 2013 Usage stats, Swords Dance Rayquaza accounts for 20.623% of all Rayquaza. Just some food for thought :toast:.

shrang said:
- Why Shadow Force is such a trade-off to Shadow Claw. Mention that Shadow Force is incredibly easy to play around because your opponent can foil it through switching between immunities and resists, as well as foiling it through Substitute (eg on Lugia).
I originally had significant elaboration on Shadow Force, but due to length reasons, I had to cut it down :(. However, I imagine the reader will find this excerpt to be of use:
(…) though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against Lugia and Normal-type Pokemon.
Also, I'm looking into whether the suggestion here can be implemented; I'm hoping to link to the (hopefully revamped) Shadow Force page where the disadvantages of Shadow Force will be better explained.

shrang said:
- Power Herb is a gimmick, IMO. You can keep it in there, but personally, I don't see its value.
As the analysis writer, the only thing that I'm doing is providing an accessible list of possible “viable” items. The readers, not me, will determine whether or not an item is viable.

For example, you don't see much value in Power Herb. I too don't see much value in Power Herb. But that does not mean that other players don't see much value in Power Herb.

Even though you and I may not believe this item to be all that great, other players might. And I imagine this is perfectly fine; I gear the section so that the reader will be able to decide which item works best for them in the end.

shrang said:
- Give some specific examples of walls that stop Arceus as well as revenge killers. It would be if the reader can read the first sentence and know immediately what they need to deal with, and then how to deal with it, not have to read the (extremely long winded) paragraph before knowing how to do it.
I originally had something like this, but took it out to minimize repetition with the C&C section. However, given the recent concision, I think it can be reintroduced :toast:.

shrang said:
- Not bad. You got most things, although I do want you to go into how Wallceus is heavy hazard bait.
That's a good idea; Wallceus being possible hazard bait has been implemented.

shrang said:
- While I know "Bandceus" is relatively okay as an abbreviation, this is a formal analysis which means you should be used to writing "Choice Band Arceus". Wallceus is okay because it is now a fully accepted name for the set, much like "Crocune", but I don't think "Bandceus" is yet. I may be wrong, but I don't think it should be used. We don't use stuff like "SpecsKyu" for Specs Kyurem-W. We call him "Choice Specs Kyurem-W" in our analyses.
Bandceus (Choice Band) is currently in the analysis for three main reasons:
  1. There is previous precedent (see later).
  2. It keeps the consistency of “custom set names” in this analysis. Extreme Killer and Wallceus aren't exactly conventional set names.
  3. I imagine it's much easier to write (and say) Bandceus than Choice Band Arceus. Less words too!
Like you said, “Bandceus” is relatively okay as an abbreviation. And there is previous precedent to its introduction; Fireburn initially coined the term “Wallceus” before the name became fully accepted. It even got some skeptics too!
Colonel M in 2011 said:
It might be just me but Wallceus seems like an odd name...
That being said, custom set names aren't generally used for most cases. I'll probably ask around to get a general opinion on "Bandceus", but until then, I imagine the set name "Bandceus" will remain for the time being.

NOTE: Kyurem-W's set names aren't exactly relevant to the usage of “Bandceus” in this analysis. At any rate, here are Kyurem-W's set names as it so stands.
  • Choice Specs
  • Burning Red White Kyurem (Choice-Less)
  • Choice Scarf

shrang said:
Thunder Wave is completely pointless with CB Arceus
As the analysis writer, the only thing that I'm doing is providing an accessible list of possible “viable” moves. Just like Power Herb, the readers, not me, will determine whether or not a move is viable.

For example, you believe that Thunder Wave isn't viable. I too believe that Thunder Wave isn't viable. But that does not mean that other players believe that Thunder Wave isn't viable. In fact, I have actually seen some players use Thunder Wave despite its obvious disadvantages. Clearly, these players are willing to sacrifice a moveslot for whatever benefits Thunder Wave provides (i.e. crippling revenge killers like Terrakion, etc.) Even though you and I may not believe this move to be viable, other players might. And just like Power Herb, I imagine this is perfectly fine :toast:.
shrang said:
- I completely rewrote this. I don't know what you were doing, but we don't need to separate Arceus's counters list into multiple sections, each with about 5+ paragraphs in them. The entire point of paragraphs already does this. Arceus is not that special that it deserves an entire separate analysis going into how to counter it.
Given that I never actually explained to you why the C&C section is as it is, I think you deserve an adequate explanation shrang.

Like Furai said in his post, I imagine an indepth C&C section is crucial given Arceus's importance to the metagame / ladder, especially to the Ubers newcomer. However, this posed a rather significant obstacle for writing. I knew that I could not post this analysis until I found an adequate solution to this dilemma; in hindsight, I should have probably told you guys this issue beforehand.

Writing this C&C section wasn’t exactly easy. I tried several different approaches; I wrote a short version (Think <700 words) as well as a long version (Think >1600 words). However, both had issues that I imagine were unacceptable. The short version was unable to adequately explain all the checks and counters that QC really wanted me to mention; the long version was obviously ridiculous in length.

I rewrote the C&C section several times in an attempt to find a reasonable length. Unfortunately, I could not get the C&C section below 900 words without sacrificing crucial details that both QC and I knew were important.

I imagine that you'll agree with me that any section that is >900 words will not be read by the general audience outright; I did not implement my previous work for this very reason. As such, I imagine I also cannot implement your C&C section at 1196 words. However, I know that you put a lot of work into it and I really do appreciate your effort, so if you manage to reduce your C&C section to less than 900 words (or edit my current C&C section), then I'll reconsider.

Anyway, after some thought, I realized that if I could not fit the C&C section within the current Smogon guidelines, then I’d have to work around them. And this is why the C&C section is as it is; I took a page from the “Team Options & Additional Comments” hide functionality onsite and incorporated it into the C&C section. Although unprecedented, I imagine the JavaScript code implemented will act as hide tags when this thing goes onsite.

This has several key advantages. First, I imagine hiding parts of the C&C section initially will significantly improve readability, which makes the length of this section possible. And second, it allows the reader to choose the C&C for the relevant set in question, which I imagine is important given that the C&C for each set is so different that it’s like you facing three different Pokemon from one Arceus forme (Hence why Bandceus and Wallceus are short at 3 paragraphs each while Extreme Killer is long at 7 paragraphs).

Unfortunately, I can’t just hide everything at once; I imagine something has to "introduce" the hide tags. And this is where I got the idea to relate the analysis to not only Arceus-Normal but also Arceus as a whole. It nails several birds with one stone; Arceus-Normal is the base condition of Arceus, so I guess it makes sense to mention the previously unmentioned details like Multitype and the opportunity cost of running orthodox Arceus sets. It fixes the overview problem too; it refers to Arceus as a whole as well as Arceus-Normal. In fact, I’m going to see if I can get the onsite page to change from “Arceus-Normal” to “Arceus” given that it better follows game mechanics (Which I imagine is very important to Smogon) and Pokemon Showdown’s teambuilder/interface (Which I imagine is important for consistency and for avoiding confusion among newcomers).

I think the time is now appropriate to address your concern here:
shrang said:
Now, I know when we were revamping the overviews, we were looking to include more than just fluff in them. Now, I know you added some information in, but in exchange you added 3 times as much fluff for the relevant information that you put in. I want you to include what Arceus's pros and cons as well. You've mentioned that Arceus is an excellent late game cleaner and can also serve as a wall. How about adding in that he has poor defensive synergy and is actually very easily stopped as well? How about putting in that by having Ekiller, you're compromising your team because you can't run an Arceus forme that better caters your team's defensive synergy? This is what you need to be mentioning in an overview, not about how pure and magnificent Arceus is.
Arceus-Normal’s overview was very difficult to write. I agree; I would have liked to add more information than what is currently in the overview. Polarizing opinions though make this task a little difficult (Some members like you think the flavor is over the top and unnecessary; some members don’t want ANY of it to be removed), so I'm a bit pressed for options. Luckily, as this analysis now relates to Arceus as a whole too, I was able to add the information that is currently in the overview. I know that there's a lot of flavor (I’m a bit constrained given that the flavor has to fit with the hook/conclusion sentence), but at least there’s some nice information about Multitype, Extreme Killer, Wallceus, and assorted.

Concerning your other points, it’s not exactly that simple. For example, you believe that Arceus-Normal’s defensive synergy is poor. However, no other Arceus overview actually mentions anything about defensive synergy unless it is notable; I imagine it makes little sense to mention poor defensive synergy here and nowhere else. And even though Arceus-Normal’s synergy isn’t exactly the best, His Ghost-type immunity is actually very useful against stuff like Shadow Force (AKA the reason why Shadow Force is generally a lesser option than Shadow Claw). Having a lone weakness is also cool too, and given His very good to excellent bulk, this is actually somewhat of a blessing given that it means Arceus-Normal has less weaknesses that can be taken advantage of.

Likewise, no other overview ever mentions anything about the opportunity cost of running a certain set over other sets. And for good reason; I imagine this is best left for the player to decide based on the information given to them throughout the analysis (Which I imagine is more than adequate).

Similarly, regarding your issue about Extreme Killer “being very easily stopped”, I imagine this is more relevant to the C&C section than the overview (Given that the overview addresses Him as a whole; it's not just Extreme Killer if I recall correctly). However, I imagine the C&C section in its current form presents all the necessary facts for the reader to make their own decisions without any excessive handholding. After all, how easily a threat is stopped is dependent on many factors -> the player's skill / experience, team composition, opponent's skill / experience, etc. etc. And of course, even though Extreme Killer's "effectiveness" can be debated, every sane player knows that they MUST have some answer to Extreme Killer given that He is not only one of the most prominent threats, but that He can sweep an entire team if not met with significant resistance.

shrang said:
This analysis was way too over the top and full of unnecessary fluff and flavour. If you imagine this analysis to be a fancy dinner, you just poured a cup full of salt, spices and what not into that dish. Long story short, it tastes horrible. Flavour is nice when you add a little bit of it, not when you fill every sentence with flowery language. Shakespeare once said that "brevity is the soul of wit". No piece of writing, whether it be an essay, a novel, a Pokemon analysis is done well when you repeat things over and over again, or when you spend 3 lines in what I can explain in one. If what you are saying does not give any relevant information, don't write it! There are parts in the analysis where you appeared to have said something in a very in an extremely over the top and verbose way, and then repeated exactly what you just said in layman's terms. Why not just write it in layman's terms? Why must you include that first fluffy bit? It does not make you sound poetic, it just makes you sound annoying.

(…)

I'm sorry if I'm coming out harsh here, Superimp, but I think you should understand why I'd be cranky if you've reserved an analysis for an entire year and when you finally finish, I need to come in here and clean it up like this. I can just imagine what it would be like for the poor GP checker if I hadn't come in and cut out as much as I did. I think this all stems from the fact that you strive to make all of your analyses really colourful. In a sense, that is a good thing that you have such an ambition to make your writing nice to read. However, it completely oversteps what is needed. Everything is bad in excess, and your fluffing up of these analyses is no different. If you just wrote a perfectly normal essay that stated facts, then you'd probably have finished this (and Latias) within 2-3 months and we'd all be much happier. Sometimes what makes something better is when you cut out stuff that are unnecessary. Our brains develop many neurons as we develop, but as we mature into adulthood, our neuron count decreases as more specific connections are formed. The same thing works for writing. Writing something in as little words as possible while retaining 100% of its meaning is a skill. Poetry becomes more meaningful when cut words out, not when you add more in. If I want you to take anything out of this analysis, it is that Shakespearean quote I alluded to earlier, which is "brevity is the soul of wit".
I agree with you shrang; I am fully aware of the importance of concision and punctuality. However, given the time that you must have spent writing this, have you considered writing the simpler “Superimp, try to be more concise and punctual next time” or “I think the flavor is a bit heavy” instead? :p

NOTE: This was actually intended to be a lighthearted joke; I messed up here in hindsight :(. My fault entirely.

-----------------------------------------------------​

Regarding the rest of your amateur GP check, I implemented anything relevant that didn't conflict with previous QC instruction and actually maintained the writing style. In other words, I used your amateur GP check as a guide to find areas of possible concision. I also polished the preexisting C&C section so that its word count is a bit more appropriate; I imagine you'll find it more acceptable given that it is actually 54 words less than the C&C section that you provided me while also having the JavaScript hide functionality.

As always, if there is anything that you feel particularly strong about, just let me know.

Thanks for all your feedback; I imagine the quality of this analysis is much improved :toast:. Here is the current word count as it so stands:
Overview: 120
Extreme Killer: 1192 (from 1273)
Wallceus: 900 (from 939)
Bandceus: 658 (from 700)
Other Options: 219 (from 205)
Checks and Counters: 1142 (from 1293)
TOTAL: 4231 (from 4530)
Thanks to you shrang, the elimination of 299 words along with some content improvements has now been incorporated. Any better?

P.S. I very much like the quotes that you got from Hamlet shrang (Polonius is quite the character :p).
shrang said:
Why do your responses have to be so long... I still want you to post your responses in the thread. I don't want these conversations to be behind closed doors. I want other QC members and higher level players to be able to scrutinise this.
Anyway:
56 Spe and SD Ray - I know you want to put a "minimum" and work your way up, but really, 56 Spe should be the minimum you run these days. I would seriously not bother with usage stats right now, since most of it is made up of either people who have no idea what they are doing or from the DracoMasters clan, who all use exactly the same team which fucks with those stats. I can say with relative good confidence after talking to most Ubers tournament players and higher level battlers that Adamant SD is now the standard Rayquaza set. I know ES isn't doing much, but it is not unlikely that you can have a 20% Ekiller primed to sweep in the endgame, and then have it stopped because Rayquaza outsped you to the ExtremeSpeed. If you wanted to have a minimum, why start it at 16 Spe? Why not just not run Speed? Max Speed neutral Dialgas and Lucario are pretty much non-existant, and every other base 90 is hit harder by ExtremeSpeed anyway. Make it 56, please.
As the analysis writer, you should recognise when something is a gimmick and when something deserves to be written. Obviously, if you're told by QC to change something, you do that, but in the absence of QC and other respected players input, you're supposed to make the judgement call on. If you and I (and the majority of QC) don't think you should keep Power Herb, then it's probably not worth keeping.
I'm sorry to be frank here, but this is just downright stupid. You can believe Charizard isn't viable. I too believe that Charizard isn't viable, but that does not mean that other players believe Charizard isn't viable. In fact, I have actually seen some players use Charizard despite its obvious disadvantages. Makes sense?
Counters section: What I'm not happy about here is the fact that you have like 3-4 different sections on Arceus' counters. I know Furai emphasised Arceus' importance, but what you're doing is just overboard. A lot of newer players read the Arceus analysis, what they think it's auto-win machine. You have no idea how many people think Arceus is like the greatest Pokemon ever. It's not. It's a very good Pokemon, sure, but it is also probably the most overhyped. Arceus deserves no special treatment over any other Pokemon. We even dropped it from S down to high A on the recent viability rankings. This goes for the analysis as a whole. The Pokemon is overhyped already. We don't need this analysis to make that fact worse. We don't split the counters section for any other Pokemon, why should we do it for Arceus? That section is to highlight Arceus's counters as a whole. You don't need to go into specific sets because you've already done it in the individual sets. Another very specific thing, is that you shouldn't go into the fact that Arceus can be in 17 different forms. This is a Normal Arceus analysis. It should stay Normal Arceus. We have 16 other Arceus pages for a reason.
Overview: I'm really lacking the patience to argue the specifics, but what I was more getting into was the fact that you need to point out Arceus' flaws in the overview. The entire overview is just hype after hype after hype. There is no need to write 5 lines of hype. People need to read the overview and know, without looking at the rest of the analysis, when they should use Normal Arceus and when they shouldn't.
On the whole: Your analysis is still pretty much the same as it was before. When I said I'm going to concise the analysis, I expected you follow what I say. I want you to follow exactly the concision I have given you, and I don't want you arguing about it.
I'm just going to say this now, Superimp, and I'm going to make it crystal clear that my patience with you has run out. Some people have been astonished on how long that patience has actually lasted. I have number of people telling me they don't want you writing another analysis again. I am getting really frustrated that you continue to ignore instructions that are given to you. Now, what I want you to do is go back to my post, look at the concision that I have made and implement every, single, one of them. Failure to comply would mean I pull my QC approval and reject the entire analysis.
Superimp said:
Sorry about the length of my responses (and punctuality; I was just talking to some other members) shrang. I know they’re really long; thanks for taking the time to read them. Also don’t worry about closed doors; as I said earlier, I'll post our conversation as soon as I finish my comments to the other members (i.e. Swamp-Rocket, sammao, etc. etc.) :toast:. Also, I introduced some other QC members to this conversation; I hope you don't mind.

Anyway, onto your response:

shrang said:
56 Spe and SD Ray - I know you want to put a "minimum" and work your way up, but really, 56 Spe should be the minimum you run these days. I would seriously not bother with usage stats right now, since most of it is made up of either people who have no idea what they are doing or from the DracoMasters clan, who all use exactly the same team which fucks with those stats. I can say with relative good confidence after talking to most Ubers tournament players and higher level battlers that Adamant SD is now the standard Rayquaza set. I know ES isn't doing much, but it is not unlikely that you can have a 20% Ekiller primed to sweep in the endgame, and then have it stopped because Rayquaza outsped you to the ExtremeSpeed. If you wanted to have a minimum, why start it at 16 Spe? Why not just not run Speed? Max Speed neutral Dialgas and Lucario are pretty much non-existant, and every other base 90 is hit harder by ExtremeSpeed anyway. Make it 56, please.
Don’t worry shrang; I am perfectly aware of the advantages (and disadvantages) of running 56 Spe EVs. Thanks for reminding me though.

Regarding 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe, it’s a very good benchmark as the bulk loss is minimal while the 16 Spe EVs like you said will help out with any max Speed neutral Dialgas and assorted (Which are still seen). It’s basically for people who don’t feel the need to outspeed neutral base 95s; they favor extra bulk against other threats than outspeeding Adamant Rayquaza.

shrang, deciding whether 16 Spe EVs or 56 Spe EVs should be the minimum Speed is entirely arbitrary, given that this is quite subjective. However, these are the people that favor 56 Spe EVs the last time I asked them:
  • Furai
  • Melee Mewtwo
  • shrang (obviously)
  • trickroom
These are the people that favor 16 Spe EVs the last time I asked them (when they were active QC members of course):
  • Poppy
  • barry4ever
There are probably more QC members (and you might have already talked to them), but those are the ones that made their opinions explicit.

I don’t particularly care which EV spread is the main one. In fact, as of the moment, I’m leaning towards 56 Spe EVs after talking with some other members; you might as well consider it changed.

shrang said:
As the analysis writer, you should recognise when something is a gimmick and when something deserves to be written. Obviously, if you're told by QC to change something, you do that, but in the absence of QC and other respected players input, you're supposed to make the judgement call on. If you and I (and the majority of QC) don't think you should keep Power Herb, then it's probably not worth keeping.
The problem is that there are several good players (EX: Poppy, Furai, etc.) that think Power Herb is fine. You and I don’t really have much success with it, but they certainly do. Given that this is an AC option, I guess it makes sense to mention Power Herb even if we don’t particularly like it; I imagine staying objective is also important when writing an analysis.

That being said, some extra opinions on Power Herb can't hurt. For instance, I personally know that Melee Mewtwo isn't in favor of Power Herb. As such, I think it might work best if we got more opinions on Power Herb before deciding whether or not it should be removed.

shrang said:
I'm sorry to be frank here, but this is just downright stupid. You can believe Charizard isn't viable. I too believe that Charizard isn't viable, but that does not mean that other players believe Charizard isn't viable. In fact, I have actually seen some players use Charizard despite its obvious disadvantages. Makes sense?
Regarding Thunder Wave, I have actually seen several good players use Thunder Wave on Bandceus (Hence its initial mention). Personally, I wouldn’t run a Choice-locked Status move, but they appeared to have some success. That being said, given that we don't exactly want to encourage this behavior (and that we both oppose Thunder Wave), consider it removed.

shrang said:
Counters section: What I'm not happy about here is the fact that you have like 3-4 different sections on Arceus' counters. I know Furai emphasised Arceus' importance, but what you're doing is just overboard. A lot of newer players read the Arceus analysis, what they think it's auto-win machine. You have no idea how many people think Arceus is like the greatest Pokemon ever. It's not. It's a very good Pokemon, sure, but it is also probably the most overhyped. Arceus deserves no special treatment over any other Pokemon. We even dropped it from S down to high A on the recent viability rankings. This goes for the analysis as a whole. The Pokemon is overhyped already. We don't need this analysis to make that fact worse. We don't split the counters section for any other Pokemon, why should we do it for Arceus? That section is to highlight Arceus's counters as a whole. You don't need to go into specific sets because you've already done it in the individual sets.
As I said earlier, the “special treatment” this C&C section is receiving is only for the purpose of readability shrang; if applicable, other analyses might receive this treatment. I know that you might think this section to be a bit “overboard”, but as I said earlier, JavaScript hide tags will be able to keep the details that both QC and I want while still being readable. I imagine it's also an extension of Fireburn’s original analysis; He split the C&C for each respective set, and given that I highly respect his work, I felt it was only natural to continue his precedent.

That being said, I'm willing to try the non-hide tag approach again, so I'll be providing something similar to your C&C section (Just shorter) as well as the current Hide Tag approach (With less "hype" and assorted). That way, you guys (AKA the QC team) will be able to weigh out the advantages and disadvantages of each respective approach.

EDIT:
[Checks and Counters]

<p>Should one see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting any answer be in danger. While there is no true counter to Extreme Killer outside of Unaware Quagsire, there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia. All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item, albeit in circumstantial situations. Toxic Skarmory falls to last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks or non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts. Faster boosted Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are problematic should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a boosted Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock. All of them also have to watch out for the rare Bandceus, that can Trick a crippling Choice Band.</p>

<p>Rather than pseudo-countering Extreme Killer, it is easier to keep Him in check using multiple Pokemon through concerted means. For example, although Choice Scarf Terrakion cannot switch into Earthquake, it can easily survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and revenge with Close Combat. However, should Arceus manage to survive, a combination check can be used to finish Him off. Offensive Ghost Arceus is an excellent example, as His immunity to ExtremeSpeed allows Him to revenge weakened Extreme Killer. With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Thanks to priority Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play, Sableye is an excellent check. However, it will lose to sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat or Lum Berry Earthquake variants after Stealth Rock. Support Ghost Arceus can be used similarly to Wallceus, but the lack of Leftovers, a strong attacking move, and His weakness to Shadow Force and Shadow Claw makes Him the lesser check. Physically defensive Groudon and Hippowdon are very effective phazers, but can be worn down. Rock and Steel Arceus can also use a support set like Ghost Arceus, but the weakness to Earthquake and Brick Break is quite unfortunate. Likewise, Fighting Arceus favors an approach similar to Terrakion, but obtains reliable recovery and bulk at the cost of power and the resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Thankfully, Arceus formes that carries plates are very effective against Bandceus, though they dislike taking super effective attacks.</p>

<p>Although it loses to Brick Break and non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts, a physically defensive Bronzong can stall many variants. Along the same lines as Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, other revenge killers can include Choice Scarf users such as Dialga and Heatran or Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Omastar. However, they are generally less effective due to weather dependency or lack of power. A physically defensive Giratina-O can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but will still cripple. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn can prove annoying with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but will almost always result in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can effectively stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>

<p>It is to be noted that as Wallceus is more inclined to defeating answers with attrition, He necessitates a very different response than that of Extreme Killer. Thanks to STAB Fighting-type attacks and Recover, Fighting Arceus is Wallceus's best counter. Fire Arceus is similar and has an immunity to burn, but lacks Fighting Arceus's consistent damage. Despite its vulnerability to attrition and lack of reliable recovery, stallbreaker Heatran shuts down any Wallceus that lacks the obscure Earthquake thanks to Taunt and Toxic.</p>

<p>Any other answer to Wallceus is either easily worn down, can be phazed before significant damage is done, or is vulnerable to Return. Magic Bounce Xatu can switch into any move besides Return after Stealth Rock or Ice Beam and proceed to completely wall Arceus. Heracross can take advantage of a possible Attack raise through Guts, allowing it to pulverize Him with Close Combat. Reshiram and Victini roast Arceus with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Blaziken smashes Him with High Jump Kick or sun-boosted Flare Blitz, but has to be mindful of Reflect. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W are particularly threatening due to Wallceus's lack of specialization against special attackers. Should the weather be sun, Ho-Oh can switch into any move but Return after Stealth Rock and proceed to deal considerable damage with Sacred Fire. However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost. Support Pokemon that can inflict detrimental status like Toxic, preferably with a method of alleviating status, can be quite effective against Wallceus. However, they are significantly less viable against Refresh variants.</p>
Thoughts?

shrang said:
Another very specific thing, is that you shouldn't go into the fact that Arceus can be in 17 different forms. This is a Normal Arceus analysis. It should stay Normal Arceus. We have 16 other Arceus pages for a reason.
As I said earlier:
Superimp said:
Unfortunately, I can’t just hide everything at once; I imagine something has to "introduce" the hide tags. And this is where I got the idea to relate the analysis to not only Arceus-Normal but also Arceus as a whole. It nails several birds with one stone; Arceus-Normal is the base condition of Arceus, so I guess it makes sense to mention the previously unmentioned details like Multitype and the opportunity cost of running orthodox Arceus sets. It fixes the overview problem too; it refers to Arceus as a whole as well as Arceus-Normal. In fact, I’m going to see if I can get the onsite page to change from “Arceus-Normal” to “Arceus” given that it better follows game mechanics (Which I imagine is very important to Smogon) and Pokemon Showdown’s teambuilder/interface (Which I imagine is important for consistency and for avoiding confusion among newcomers).
It’s only relating to the other Arceus formes in terms of stuff like explaining Multitype, opportunity cost, and assorted. I imagine this is minor stuff; it doesn’t explain the details the other Arceus analyses do for example.

Anyway, as I implied earlier (Although I should have been more explicit), I’ll be talking to some higher ups about this proposal (or better yet, the entire QC team). If overall they think it’s fine, then I imagine the stuff will stay. If they disagree (just like you disagree with this proposal), then that’s fine; I’ll change the analysis to accommodate for this. It’s no big deal.

shrang said:
Overview: I'm really lacking the patience to argue the specifics, but what I was more getting into was the fact that you need to point out Arceus' flaws in the overview. The entire overview is just hype after hype after hype. There is no need to write 5 lines of hype. People need to read the overview and know, without looking at the rest of the analysis, when they should use Normal Arceus and when they shouldn't.
Given the fact that readers have survived the previous overview, I am confident that they’ll be able to survive the updated one shrang. I have already explained to you why the overview is as it is (Remember, I agree with you on many accounts).

Once this analysis goes onsite, I might consider writing up a totally new overview for Arceus-Normal and then seeing if I can get it through the flavor lovers. It’ll have totally different flavor from the original overview, so it’ll be much easier for me to fit relevant competitive information. However, writing such an overview is going to take a lot of research for flavor, and given that my priority is getting this analysis onsite first, this isn't exactly going to help. However, if you think I should prioritize writing a totally new overview over getting this analysis onsite right away, then that will work fine too.

shrang said:
On the whole: Your analysis is still pretty much the same as it was before. When I said I'm going to concise the analysis, I expected you follow what I say. I want you to follow exactly the concision I have given you, and I don't want you arguing about it.
I’m really sorry that you feel put off with this as an amateur GP checker, but following your concision word for word is going to be a bit difficult (that and an amateur GP check is not strictly mandatory). That being said, I'll be happy to go over EVERY change with you so that even if it might not be word for word, it'll be more along the same lines as what you've written (albeit adapted to my writing style).

NOTE: As such, we might want to talk on IRC; read further for more details.

shrang said:
I'm just going to say this now, Superimp, and I'm going to make it crystal clear that my patience with you has run out. Some people have been astonished on how long that patience has actually lasted. I have number of people telling me they don't want you writing another analysis again. I am getting really frustrated that you continue to ignore instructions that are given to you. Now, what I want you to do is go back to my post, look at the concision that I have made and implement every, single, one of them. Failure to comply would mean I pull my QC approval and reject the entire analysis.
I’m very sorry that your patience has run out shrang. Trust me, those people you talked to have the right idea; it is remarkable how long your patience has lasted with me. Maybe those supposed people are right; maybe I shouldn’t write another analysis for Ubers C&C ever again. But right now, I have an analysis that has been written up since June 26. And I intend to finish it.

I am not surprised that you’re frustrated that I haven’t implemented all your suggestions. I mean, based on your open reactions on IRC, I must be the most troublesome person you had to deal with in a very long time!
<shrang> sigh
<shrang> how the fuck do I respond to superimp's ridiculously reply
<shrang> where do I even start
<shrang> ridiculous*

<shrang> far out superimp
<shrang> one day
<shrang> he's going to make me so frustrated that I'm going to suffer from a haemorrhagic stroke
Some of the time shrang (though not always), there is a reason why a person does what he or she does. When I read your changes (or any post to be quite frank), I try to understand where you’re coming from. I try to understand if there is any possible merit in what you say, carefully considering all your ideas. But have you ever thought about why I respond to your comments like that? I might seem to "ignore" some of the instructions that you give me, but this is because I usually have an underlying reason behind that; I am not intentionally rejecting QC! For instance, many of your changes conflict with previous QC instruction from members like Furai (EX: he wanted some further elaboration on Lum Berry; you wanted to remove it). Or that my C&C section is kept because I really don't want this section to have the same fate as your original Mewtwo C&C section. And this is where I am to fault; I should have made my reasons behind any action absolutely clear as well as assuring you that I am indeed listening to what you have to say. I am truly sorry for any misunderstanding that came about from this.

shrang, I am going to repeat my words again and hope that you consider them.
I’m really sorry that you feel put off with this as an amateur GP checker, but following your concision word for word is going to be a bit difficult (that and an amateur GP check is not strictly mandatory). That being said, I'll be happy to go over EVERY change with you so that even if it might not be word for word, it'll be more along the same lines as what you've written (albeit adapted to my writing style).
If you want to go ahead with your QC rejection, then I cannot stop you. You’re the QC member after all, not me.

Regardless shrang, I’ll just like to let you know that I appreciate all your hard work with the responses, comments, and your amateur GP check. We might not have the best working relationship, but it cannot be denied that your ideas have made a difference to this analysis. Thanks for all your patience in reading these (long) responses.

P.S. Given your liking for IRC (and that I'm somewhat free; I don't know about you), we might want to consider meeting up on IRC to smooth matters over concerning your amcheck. My time zone is GMT -4; I assume your time zone is GMT +10?
NOTE: At this point, other QC members joined in.
Melee Mewtwo said:
Okay, I know you said you aren't finished with this but I'll be busy with school soon and I want to go ahead and reply to the bulk of this while I still can.

IRC PM convo between superimp and I:
http://pastebin.com/0iSa2t3T

56 EVs: I know you have now decided to change it but this shouldn't have taken so long nor should we really have to convince you. I know it sounds dickish but when it comes to content QC pretty much has absolute say over what is in the analysis. We are kind dictators, though, and don't mind you expressing your concerns an doubts but we would really like more of a reason than people liking to do their own things or the comments of QC from a year ago (which is the problem of an analysis dragging out so long). Shrang gave ample justification by explaining the metagame shift (further making Poppy's/barry's comments irrelevent) and there's no significant loss in bulk (which COULD have been a viable concern) so it's frustrating that this wasn't immediately implemented.

Power Herb + Thunder Wave: Same shit applies here. Current QC has told you to remove these and you haven't provided any real metagame related justification on why this isn't already done.

C&C length: I already talked with you about it on IRC and I'll repeat it here: I largely prefer what Shrang has posted. If we are going to shrink it (which would be nice) then I'd much rather work off of a good base. (cause your version is insisting on stupid shit like the 17 formes bit) Again, we don't mind if you write things up in your own words but you need to be working with QC on this not just saying, "Yeah, thanks for the suggestions I'm just going to do my own thing with it and not make half the changes I was asked to" (which is what I'm getting out of your responses).

Overview: IIRC (this has gone on for a while and I'm fuzzy on details) Shrang has already give you two options, A) Keep what GS had written up or B) add actual content for it. If you plan on revamping the overviews later than option A seems like the choice you should be making instead of pumping it up with more hype and useless content.

Shrang's changes despite lack of GP team status:
<macle> just say macle says to stfu
<macle> and listen to shrang
I think this makes things pretty clear.
Superimp said:
By the way, just to set things straight, I finished my response :toast:. Anyway, after talking with Furai, it might be best if I showed you guys my non-hide tag version of the C&C section right away; it’s apparently both intimidating and readable!

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Should one see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting any answer be in danger. While there is no true counter to Extreme Killer outside of Unaware Quagsire, there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia. All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item, albeit in circumstantial situations. Toxic Skarmory falls to last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks or non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts. Faster boosted Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are problematic should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a boosted Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock. All of them also have to watch out for the rare Bandceus, that can Trick a crippling Choice Band.</p>

<p>Rather than pseudo-countering Extreme Killer, it is easier to keep Him in check using multiple Pokemon through concerted means. For example, although Choice Scarf Terrakion cannot switch into Earthquake, it can easily survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and revenge with Close Combat. However, should Arceus manage to survive, a combination check can be used to finish Him off. Offensive Ghost Arceus is an excellent example, as His immunity to ExtremeSpeed allows Him to revenge weakened Extreme Killer. With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Thanks to priority Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play, Sableye is an excellent check. However, it will lose to sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat or Lum Berry Earthquake variants after Stealth Rock. Support Ghost Arceus can be used similarly to Wallceus, but the lack of Leftovers, a strong attacking move, and His weakness to Shadow Force and Shadow Claw makes Him the lesser check. Physically defensive Groudon and Hippowdon are very effective phazers, but can be worn down. Rock and Steel Arceus can also use a support set like Ghost Arceus, but the weakness to Earthquake and Brick Break is quite unfortunate. Likewise, Fighting Arceus favors an approach similar to Terrakion, but obtains reliable recovery and bulk at the cost of power and the resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Thankfully, Arceus formes that carry plates are very effective against Bandceus, though they dislike taking super effective attacks.</p>

<p>Although it loses to Brick Break and non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts, a physically defensive Bronzong can stall many variants. Along the same lines as Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, other revenge killers can include Choice Scarf users such as Dialga and Heatran or Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Omastar. However, they are generally less effective due to weather dependency or lack of power. A physically defensive Giratina-O can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but will still cripple. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn can prove annoying with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but will almost always result in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can effectively stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>

<p>It is to be noted that as Wallceus is more inclined to defeating answers with attrition, He necessitates a very different response than that of Extreme Killer. Thanks to STAB Fighting-type attacks and Recover, Fighting Arceus is Wallceus's best counter. Fire Arceus is similar and has an immunity to burn, but lacks Fighting Arceus's consistent damage. Despite its vulnerability to attrition and lack of reliable recovery, stallbreaker Heatran shuts down any Wallceus that lacks the obscure Earthquake thanks to Taunt and Toxic.</p>

<p>Any other answer to Wallceus is either easily worn down, can be phazed before significant damage is done, or is vulnerable to Return. Magic Bounce Xatu can switch into any move besides Return after Stealth Rock or Ice Beam and proceed to completely wall Arceus. Heracross can take advantage of a possible Attack raise through Guts, allowing it to pulverize Him with Close Combat. Reshiram and Victini roast Arceus with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Blaziken smashes Him with High Jump Kick or sun-boosted Flare Blitz, but has to be mindful of Reflect. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W are particularly threatening due to Wallceus's lack of specialization against special attackers. Should the weather be sun, Ho-Oh can switch into any move but Return after Stealth Rock and proceed to deal considerable damage with Sacred Fire. However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost. Support Pokemon that can inflict detrimental status like Toxic, preferably with a method of alleviating status, can be quite effective against Wallceus. However, they are significantly less viable against Refresh variants.</p>
Is this preferable to the hide tag approach? We can always edit the content later if necessary~.

---------------------​

Here’s the word count before shrang and I hopefully go over his amcheck on IRC (assuming shrang is fine with this of course):
Overview: 120
Extreme Killer: 1180 (from 1192)
Wallceus: 899 (from 900)
Bandceus: 631 (from 658)
Other Options: 204 (from 219)
Checks and Counters: 928 (from 1142)
TOTAL: 3962 (from 4231)
NOTE: The original word count by the way was 4530, so basically 568 words were cut overall.

---------------------​

Given that Melee Mewtwo’s post is in response to my unfinished response, I’m probably going to respond to it sometime in the next two days just so he gets the chance to make any relevant changes (if he needs it). As I said on IRC, thanks for all your feedback Melee Mewtwo.
shrang said:
Just on the counters section,
Toxic Skarmory falls to last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks or non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts.
I'm presuming that's a typo and it should be "Toxic-less"?
With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer.
This is a nice and succinct sentence, but part of the reason I went over 1000 words because I really wanted to stress that countering Arceus, while hard on paper, is actually very easy in practice. Now, it's good that you've cut it down now, but I do think there needs to be a very specific sentence in there that says "while Arceus is difficult to counter on paper, he is actually easy to counter in practice". Maybe point out in one more sentence that because Arceus's attacks are weak, it can't break through defensive teams easily, while its lack of resistances mean that offensive pressure makes revenge killing it much easier for offensive teams.

Few more minor issues:
- Landorus-T needs to be mentioned. The Choice Band set at full health can tank an ExtremeSpeed from +1 LO Arceus after SR and OHKO in return with Superpower. While you need to be careful with letting Arceus set up an extra Swords Dance, you can still either 1) death fodder a weakened Landorus for the Intimidate or 2) Intimidate and finish off a weakened Arceus
- Choice Band Scizor needs to mentioned somewhere

Personally, the word count of the old counters section was the least of my worries. I was only really taken aback by the new formatting and everything (and the fact that there were a number of random gimmicks in there that didn't need to be addressed). 1000 word limit is kind of arbitrary, in my opinion. I actually do not mind if you have a high word count, provided that you fill that space up with actual content instead of fluff. I guess with the new stuff that I've just suggested, you'll probably go over 1000 words again (although we could probably cut it down a little further if we organise it in a different way), but I do not mind if you go over by a little bit, that's not the problem. The problem was the apparent hype given when we had a whole bunch of hide tags and what not.

That's much better, Superimp, I'll be logged onto IRC for the next 7-8 hours if you need me (I won't always be looking at it, I'll probably be afk quite often), but if you're there, give me a buzz so we can fix the rest of the analysis.

EDIT: Also, Dice is also a QC member, so's Theorymon
Furai said:
I just want to point out that im the best
Melee Mewtwo said:
(Yeah, your edits weren't too much different from the state of the post when I had responded to it so my initial response remains the same)

As for the new C&C, what still bothers me is that the very first paragraph (what is the most likely to be read) still spends almost the entire time talking about how these 4 counters to Ekiller (Yeah, Quagsire isn't the only one. Assuming the standard set these guys have no problem.) will fall under various circumstances than how they actually beat Ekiller. (except for a quick single sentence) Even the very first line is just common battle sense and applicable to any Pokemon, there's not really a need for it to be there besides to hype up the mon. (scouting sets is a key part of Pokemon, yes I know it was in shrang's version as well) You actually handle the C&C better with later checks (explains why they beat ekiller but a quick mention on how they need to be careful for x,y,z) than with the most efficient answers in what is likely to be the only section of the c&c newer players will read.

Content wise (organization and explanations of counters) I still like Shrang's version a lot better. If you can somehow manage to convert all that into your own style and keep it to the point, then I wouldn't have a problem.
Superimp said:
Yes Furai, you really are the best :toast:. I have added Dice and Theorymon to the conversation; thanks for reminding me shrang.

Anyway, onto the comments of Melee Mewtwo and shrang:

--------------------------​
Melee Mewtwo said:
56 EVs: I know you have now decided to change it but this shouldn't have taken so long nor should we really have to convince you. I know it sounds dickish but when it comes to content QC pretty much has absolute say over what is in the analysis. We are kind dictators, though, and don't mind you expressing your concerns an doubts but we would really like more of a reason than people liking to do their own things or the comments of QC from a year ago (which is the problem of an analysis dragging out so long). Shrang gave ample justification by explaining the metagame shift (further making Poppy's/barry's comments irrelevent) and there's no significant loss in bulk (which COULD have been a viable concern) so it's frustrating that this wasn't immediately implemented.
You're right Melee Mewtwo; I should have definitely implemented the 56 Spe EVs sooner. And like I said earlier, I should have definitely made my reasons absolutely clear to you guys; I was waiting for a clear majority before changing the EV spread. I still value the opinions of (then active) barry4ever and Poppy, just like I value the opinion of trickroom (who had similar concerns to shrang at the time; I assume they remained the same?). As such, I'm really sorry about all the inconvenience and misunderstandings that I must have caused :(.

Thankfully, it’s all water under the bridge now Melee Mewtwo; 56 Spe EVs has been implemented.

NOTE: If you want, I can provide some relevant damage calculations for the previous main EV spread, but at this point, I think that's unnecessary :toast:.
Melee Mewtwo said:
Power Herb + Thunder Wave: Same shit applies here. Current QC has told you to remove these and you haven't provided any real metagame related justification on why this isn't already done.
Thunder Wave has been removed. Regarding Power Herb, here are the current opinions IIRC:
  • Furai, barry4ever, and Poppy are explicitly in favor of keeping Power Herb. barry4ever and Poppy aren't active though.
  • shrang doesn't see the value, but says it's optional to keep. He’s okay with it staying. Similarly, I’m not a huge fan of Power Herb, but I'm okay with it staying.
  • You are explicitly against Power Herb.
As such, it seems to be staying for now. If you're looking for metagame related justification, you might want to consider asking Furai (given his support for Power Herb), though I could always provide some if necessary.

Melee Mewtwo said:
As for the new C&C, what still bothers me is that the very first paragraph (what is the most likely to be read) still spends almost the entire time talking about how these 4 counters to Ekiller (Yeah, Quagsire isn't the only one. Assuming the standard set these guys have no problem.) will fall under various circumstances than how they actually beat Ekiller. (except for a quick single sentence) Even the very first line is just common battle sense and applicable to any Pokemon, there's not really a need for it to be there besides to hype up the mon. (scouting sets is a key part of Pokemon, yes I know it was in shrang's version as well) You actually handle the C&C better with later checks (explains why they beat ekiller but a quick mention on how they need to be careful for x,y,z) than with the most efficient answers in what is likely to be the only section of the c&c newer players will read.

Content wise (organization and explanations of counters) I still like Shrang's version a lot better. If you can somehow manage to convert all that into your own style and keep it to the point, then I wouldn't have a problem.
Regarding the first paragraph, I grouped the four answers together in order to be more concise. While I could definitely elaborate on how Skarmory, Wallceus, Giratina, and Lugia actually beat Extreme Killer (and I did originally elaborate), I thought these parts of the paragraph would be sufficient for all of them:
[…] there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part
All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death should they be healthy or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss.
This generalization keeps the word count down nicely, which is pretty important given that I’m at 969 words right now (I still have to get this through GP). Unfortunately, I was unable to generalize the ways of how they lose (Besides Bandceus Tricking).

Currently, shrang and Furai are fine with the arrangement/structure of the first paragraph. However, I guess I can write another version of the paragraph that is more in line with the work that you prefer; this might be useful for comparison. I assume this works out for you?

Regarding the first sentence, here is shrang's explanation (courtesy of his pastebin); I can explain further if necessary.
IRC said:
00:36 pownaw Personally, I think it's fine, but maybe that's just me.
00:36 shrang I think that's fine
00:37 shrang because you don't know what arceus form it is
00:37 shrang you don't want to be throwing away your checks willy nilly
00:37 shrang unless there's a bigger threat around the corner
00:37 shrang specific to your team
NOTE: Here’s the standard set just for reference purposes:
[SET]
name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
From here, I imagine you can get “problem” matchups for each of the four checks in some form or another (assuming slashes that is). Regardless, those answers will still easily deal with Him for the most part.

shrang said:
Overview: IIRC (this has gone on for a while and I'm fuzzy on details) Shrang has already give you two options, A) Keep what GS had written up or B) add actual content for it. If you plan on revamping the overviews later than option A seems like the choice you should be making instead of pumping it up with more hype and useless content.
As you probably heard Melee Mewtwo, I'll be working on the overview a bit to see what I can come up with.

Melee Mewtwo said:
Shrang's changes despite lack of GP team status:
<macle> just say macle says to stfu
<macle> and listen to shrang
I think this makes things pretty clear.
Likewise, as you probably heard Melee Mewtwo, shrang and I have sorted out the Arceus analysis on IRC. It's all good.
shrang said:
I'm presuming that's a typo and it should be "Toxic-less"?
Standard Skarmory vs. Silk Scarf Extreme Killer
Physically Defensive Skarmory vs. Life Orb Extreme Killer

I made these quick replays if you want to see the matchup in person (I can get you logs if necessary). It's definitely circumstantial (and a bit counterintuitive) though. I hope these replays are adequate?

NOTE:
Standard Skarmory stands for 252 HP / 4 Def+ / 252 SpD as shown onsite.
Physically Defensive Skarmory stands for 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD.

EDIT: I just read shrang’s edit and realized my mistake. When I meant “I can get you logs if necessary”, I was actually referring to “actual logs against actual players” (given that these replays are obviously unrealistic like shrang said; they were intended to give a general idea on how Toxic Skarmory can possibly lose) -> sorry about the misunderstanding I created shrang.

shrang said:
This is a nice and succinct sentence, but part of the reason I went over 1000 words because I really wanted to stress that countering Arceus, while hard on paper, is actually very easy in practice. Now, it's good that you've cut it down now, but I do think there needs to be a very specific sentence in there that says "while Arceus is difficult to counter on paper, he is actually easy to counter in practice". Maybe point out in one more sentence that because Arceus's attacks are weak, it can't break through defensive teams easily, while its lack of resistances mean that offensive pressure makes revenge killing it much easier for offensive teams.
Hmm… I guess I'm okay with adding one more sentence, though I'm still trying to keep the word count down (as well as minimizing excessive handholding). I'm still thinking about it (and we'll probably talk about it on IRC later), but if we do decide to add one more sentence, perhaps this might be suitable?
Changes in Bold said:
[...] With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer. A sturdy defensive backbone can also go a long way towards keeping Him at bay.</p>
I imagine that would address one part of your suggestion better (though it might need to be reworded). I think your other part is already covered in some form or another; if you think it’s inadequate, perhaps we might make it more explicit.

shrang said:
- Landorus-T needs to be mentioned. The Choice Band set at full health can tank an ExtremeSpeed from +1 LO Arceus after SR and OHKO in return with Superpower. While you need to be careful with letting Arceus set up an extra Swords Dance, you can still either 1) death fodder a weakened Landorus for the Intimidate or 2) Intimidate and finish off a weakened Arceus
- Choice Band Scizor needs to mentioned somewhere
Given that the C&C section is less than 1000 words, I’m actually fine with reintroducing Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor given their performance should they be adequately conserved and/or Arceus lack sufficient power (i.e. He’s carrying an item like Lum Berry).

Changes in Bold said:
[...] A physically defensive Giratina-O can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but will still cripple. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn can prove annoying with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but will almost always result in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can truly stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>
I assume this fits the bill shrang?

shrang said:
Personally, the word count of the old counters section was the least of my worries. I was only really taken aback by the new formatting and everything (and the fact that there were a number of random gimmicks in there that didn't need to be addressed). 1000 word limit is kind of arbitrary, in my opinion. I actually do not mind if you have a high word count, provided that you fill that space up with actual content instead of fluff. I guess with the new stuff that I've just suggested, you'll probably go over 1000 words again (although we could probably cut it down a little further if we organise it in a different way), but I do not mind if you go over by a little bit, that's not the problem. The problem was the apparent hype given when we had a whole bunch of hide tags and what not.
Yeah, you're right; I guess the hide tags (and the stuff that came with them) might have been too confusing for their own good. I think the non-hide tag approach will work fine for the time being.

It’s nice to know that you don’t mind the high word count; I hope the GP checkers agree with you. Also shrang, the current changes I have clock at 37 additional words; combined with the removal of one redundant word, the word count is now 965 for the C&C section (NOTE: Haven't updated the section yet besides removing that redundant word).

shrang said:
That's much better, Superimp, I'll be logged onto IRC for the next 7-8 hours if you need me (I won't always be looking at it, I'll probably be afk quite often), but if you're there, give me a buzz so we can fix the rest of the analysis.
Obviously, I missed that window of opportunity shrang :(. However, I can probably make it around 10:15 PM at your time today (Assuming GMT +10), which I imagine is somewhat compatible with the time frame you've given me. Does this time work for you? Or should we try to find a different time?
shrang said:
Furry sucks.

Anyway,

Standard Skarmory vs. Silk Scarf Extreme Killer
Physically Defensive Skarmory vs. Life Orb Extreme Killer
I made these quick replays if you want to see the matchup in person (I can get you logs if necessary). It's definitely circumstantial (and a bit counterintuitive) though. I hope these replays are adequate?
I can't see those replays (at least not on the uni internet anyway). Can you show me the log (just skip to the part where it's Skarm vs Ekiller)?
EDIT: Okay, I did see those, but seriously, I don't know why these logs are relevant. We already went over the fact that incredibly circumstantial situations do not need a mention in C&C. There is practically no chance that you will have a last mon Arceus that would at or close to 100% health on a team against Skarmory. Yes, maybe in a vacuum, Arceus can defeat Skarmory if they're both last mons, but in practice, this never happens. Ever. Out of all of the Ekillers I have faced with Skarmory, none of them have beaten Skarm unless they were 1) carrying a Fire move or 2) got a lucky crit. I'm happy if you mention "last mon Arceus can defeat Skarm if it lacks Toxic", but otherwise, don't mention it.
Obviously, I missed that window of opportunity shrang :(. However, I can probably make it around 10:15 PM at your time today (Assuming GMT +10), which I imagine is somewhat compatible with the time frame you've given me. Does this time work for you? Or should we try to find a different time?
That should be okay.
shrang said:
http://pastebin.com/H52rexDD

That's the second half of our conversation, the beginning was cut out, sadly. Anyway, I'm happy with what we've reached, except for the Toxic Skarm section in C&C and the cons of Arceus in the Overview, that hasn't been written yet. Any other QC members who want to have a look, the analysis in thread should be updated now.
Superimp said:
Yeah, like shrang said, the analysis in the Arceus thread has been updated. Here's the current word count:
Overview: 120
Extreme Killer: 1168 (from 1192)
Wallceus: 891 (from 899)
Bandceus: 627 (from 631)
Other Options: 203 (from 204)
Checks and Counters: 969 (from 928)
TOTAL: 3978 (from 3962)
As hinted by shrang, I'll be working on the overview a bit to see what I can come up with. Also, Furai acted as the tiebreaker for the Toxic Skarm section in C&C, so I think that issue is now resolved.

Regarding significant QC changes, Wallceus's EV spread has been changed to 252 HP / 200 Def+ / 56 Spe. shrang, Furai, and I are all fine with this; I assume there are no major objections to this EV spread?

Anyway, assuming that I haven't forgotten about anything, I think it might be best if I focused on working on that overview as well as finishing my comments to the other members in the Arceus thread. Thanks shrang, Furai, and Melee Mewtwo for all your work, help, and feedback :toast:.

P.S. I've finished responding to your comments Melee Mewtwo; they are located in my previous post/PM. Are you fine with this recent development?
Melee Mewtwo said:
If everybody else is satisfied then don't mind me.
shrang said:
I'm just wondering, Superimp, were you going to edit the Overview as well (get rid of the extra hype sentence and adding in Arceus's cons)?
Superimp said:
Does the edited overview work out for you shrang? It can still be tweaked further if necessary of course.
shrang said:
It's still missing Arceus's cons. Doesn't matter now, I guess, we've wasted enough time - I'll SCMS them in later. Put it through GP now, Superimp
Superimp said:
The Arceus analysis has (finally) entered the GP phase.

Regarding the overview shrang, here is where the cons sentence was supposed to be:
[...] His purest forme is impartial in type. His lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks is tempered with a sole immunity to Ghost-type attacks.
When thinking about appropriate cons to mention for the Arceus overview, I took a page from the cons mentioned in the Arceus-Ghost and Arceus-Fighting overviews. However, I agree with you; I don't see any true cons sentence. This has now been remedied.
[...] His purest forme is somewhat deficient in defensive synergy. A lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks is tempered with a sole immunity to Ghost-type attacks.
I'm just addressing this right now as I would prefer if the full onsite overview was GP checked (that and I'm trying to maintain a strict 120 word count for flavor purposes); I assume the overview is better now shrang?

Anyway, here are my replies to sammao, Anikrahman1995, MatchMaster, and Swamp_Rocket.

Replying to sammao:
Other Arceus formes can definitely be specialized towards defeating Extreme Killer; I 100% agree sammao. Ideally, I would have liked to mention this information, but given the current size of the C&C section (969 words), the fact that these sets are uncommon, and that these answers are generally less effective than Wallceus, Ghost, Rock, Steel, and Fighting Arceus, I unfortunately had to cut them for the greater good :(.

Hope this addresses your suggestion sammao.

Replying to Anikrahman1995
Thanks for the like Anikrahman1995! I imagine that you'd be pleased to know that the analysis for the most part remains relatively unchanged.

As of the moment, Wallceus, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Rock, and Arceus-Steel are still going to be mentioned in C&C, but I hope their mentions are equivalent to their general effectiveness against Extreme Killer.

You probably already read this before in Wallceus’s section, but if a player found Will-O-Wisp too inconsistent for their liking (Or hate Lum Berry variants), they could always run Iron Defense. Granted, Iron Defense isn’t really the best option for an Arceus forme, but if one was truly concerned about optimizing their performance against Extreme Killer, then Iron Defense is an acceptable option.

Hope this addresses all your concerns Anikrahman1995.

P.S. I addressed the possible mention of other Arceus formes in my reply to sammao.

Replying to MatchMaster:
As Furai previously mentioned MatchMaster, Lugia can take advantage of Shadow Force’s charge turn. More specifically, Lugia can switch into a Swords Dance after SR, Reflect on the charge turn, tank the +2 Life Orb Shadow Force, and then Roost up to eventually activate Multiscale. From there, it can then Toxic or phaze Him away with ease.

However, if Lugia lacks Reflect (or uses Whirlwind / Dragon Tail / Toxic on the initial charge turn), then it would definitely be placed in a difficult situation. Ideally, I would have liked to mention these issues, but as this section is already quite long, I thought a generalized mention would suffice. Hope this addresses your question MatchMaster.

Replying to Swamp_Rocket:
Here’s the current C&C section Swamp_Rocket:
<p>Should one see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting any answer be in danger. While there is no true counter to Extreme Killer outside of Unaware Quagsire, there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia. All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death should they be healthy or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item, albeit in circumstantial situations. Toxic Skarmory falls to non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts and has to be wary of last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks. Faster boosted Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are problematic should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a boosted Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock. All of them also have to watch out for the rare Bandceus, that can Trick a crippling Choice Band.</p>

<p>Rather than pseudo-countering Extreme Killer, it is easier to keep Him in check using multiple Pokemon through concerted means. For example, although Choice Scarf Terrakion cannot switch into Earthquake, it can easily survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and revenge with Close Combat. However, should Arceus manage to survive, a combination check can be used to finish Him off. Offensive Ghost Arceus is an excellent example, as His immunity to ExtremeSpeed allows Him to revenge weakened Extreme Killer. With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Thanks to priority Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play, Sableye is an excellent check. However, it will lose to sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat or Lum Berry Earthquake variants after Stealth Rock. Support Ghost Arceus can be used similarly to Wallceus, but the lack of Leftovers, a strong attacking move, and His weakness to Shadow Force and Shadow Claw makes Him the lesser check. Physically defensive Groudon and Hippowdon are very effective phazers, but can be worn down. Rock and Steel Arceus can also use a support set like Ghost Arceus, but the weakness to Earthquake and Brick Break is quite unfortunate. Likewise, Fighting Arceus favors an approach similar to Terrakion, but obtains reliable recovery and bulk at the cost of power and the resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Thankfully, Arceus formes that carry plates are very effective against Bandceus, though they dislike taking super effective attacks.</p>

<p>Although it loses to Brick Break and non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts, a physically defensive Bronzong can stall many variants. Along the same lines as Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, other revenge killers can include Choice Scarf users such as Dialga and Heatran or Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Omastar. However, they are generally less effective due to weather dependency or lack of power. A physically defensive Giratina-O can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage or possibly OHKO with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but will still cripple. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn can prove annoying with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but will almost always result in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can truly stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>

<p>It is to be noted that as Wallceus is more inclined to defeating answers with attrition, He necessitates a very different response than that of Extreme Killer. Thanks to STAB Fighting-type attacks and Recover, Fighting Arceus is Wallceus's best counter. Fire Arceus is similar and has an immunity to burn, but lacks Fighting Arceus's consistent damage. Despite its vulnerability to attrition and lack of reliable recovery, stallbreaker Heatran shuts down any Wallceus that lacks the obscure Earthquake thanks to Taunt and Toxic.</p>

<p>Any other answer to Wallceus is either easily worn down, can be phazed before significant damage is done, or is vulnerable to Return. Magic Bounce Xatu can switch into any move besides Return after Stealth Rock or Ice Beam and proceed to completely wall Arceus. Heracross can take advantage of a possible Attack raise through Guts, allowing it to pulverize Him with Close Combat. Reshiram and Victini roast Arceus with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Blaziken smashes Him with Hi Jump Kick or sun-boosted Flare Blitz, but has to be mindful of Reflect. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W are particularly threatening due to Wallceus's lack of specialization against special attackers. Should the weather be sun, Ho-Oh can switch into any move but Return after Stealth Rock and proceed to deal considerable damage with Sacred Fire. However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost, though the possible burn is an annoyance. Support Pokemon that can inflict detrimental status like Toxic, preferably with a method of alleviating status, can be quite effective against Wallceus. However, they are significantly less viable against Refresh variants.</p>

Basically, it’s the same C&C section that I had originally, except the hide tags (and everything that came with it) were removed. Apparently, what I have now is both intimidating and readable (at least according to Furai). I assume this is more in line with your idea of grouping answers together?

P.S. Quagsire 100% deserves a mention given that it is the best answer to Extreme Killer bar none. I imagine its supposed viability in Ubers is irrelevant; as Quagsire is the only true counter to Extreme Killer, the reader deserves to know. At any rate, it’s only a small aside mention at best :toast:.

---------------------------------------------------------​

Outside of any outstanding concerns, I imagine it's time for this analysis to enter the GP phase.
 
Last edited:
#43
edit: whoops, didn't see this
Okay, I'm going to concise this analysis. No one GP this before I do, please.
so just ignore this, I guess >_>

Amateur check, hope this helps!

Additions
Removals
Comments

[OVERVIEW]

<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in awe and wondrous presentiment at what is conceivably the best Pokemon in the entire game. His stats are unrivaled; His versatility is unmatched. His impact remains unquestionable. As ordained at the shaping of the universe, His purest forme is somewhat deficient in defensive synergy. A lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks is tempered with a sole immunity to Ghost-type attacks. But whether wiping His many creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer or standing as their resolute guardian by as Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>
[SET]
name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Thanks to Extreme Killer's
very good excellent bulk and the priority of His ExtremeSpeed, He is very difficult to revenge kill. Combine it with a base 120 Attack stat, the ease of setting up a Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the best late-game sweepers in the entire game, capable of decimating offensive teams and cleaning up weakened defensive teams with ease.</p>
<p>Swords Dance will enhance the power of His STAB ExtremeSpeed to incredible levels. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is more than capable enough to OHKO even the deadliest of Uber titans, such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Latias, Palkia, and Reshiram.</p>

<p>To repel the Ghost-types that can come in on ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Claw is the preferred option
in the third slot for its high reliability. For those that crave more power, Shadow Force is a better another viable option. Its power after a Swords Dance is so extreme that even physically defensive Giratina risks being OHKOed without any hazards provided Arceus is Adamant and holding Life Orb; Giratina-O, Ghost Arceus, and Wobbuffet are easily OHKOed. Shadow Force also evades crippling support moves such as Will-O-Wisp during its charge turn, though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against Lugia and Normal-type Pokemon. For His last slot, Earthquake eradicates the Rock- and Steel-types that could otherwise take an ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga or Heatran. Brick Break, though less powerful, breaks through troublesome screens and is significantly more effective against Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Wallceus. Recover allows Him to act as a pivot and increases his longevity at the detriment of coverage.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With STAB ExtremeSpeed as His judgment, one might wonder why Arceus even bothers with Speed. After all, the given EVs and nature grant Him a superb combination of maximum power, bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95s. But alas, Arceus's incredible versatility allows Him to run several EV spreads just as effective as the last. Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. To outspeed positive base 90s
like such as Timid Dialga, 124 Speed EVs is sufficient. 168 Speed EVs will outspeed any positive base 95s like such as Jolly Rayquaza. For other key threats, a Jolly nature becomes necessary. 160 Speed EVs is sufficient for outspeeding Terrakion. 176 Speed EVs will outpace positive base 110s like such as Froslass. Finally, 252 Speed EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against maximum Speed Arceus; this , which makes them unreliable answers, especially if they're using Will-O-Wisp. Once this the desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p>
<p>Unlike His other formes, Extreme Killer can utilize almost any item. For those seeking a balanced approach, Silk Scarf is the preferred option. It provides a 20% boost to ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk. For a more offensive touch, Life Orb provides a great deal more power to all of Arceus's attacks, though the recoil damage is unfortunate. With just a Life Orb and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is capable of OHKOing threats such as Kyurem-B, Zekrom, and tank Ho-Oh without any hazards. It is also the best item to use against His top defensive checks. If the Speed of Jolly is favored, Life Orb is recommended to compensate for its reduced the loss of power in comparison with Adamant. For those that favor one-time status protection, Lum Berry is the best option. It is particularly useful for its utility in lead and SmashPass situations. However, the power loss is substantial;: without the boost from Silk Scarf or Life Orb, Arceus is unable to OHKO many Pokemon like such as Palkia and Mewtwo without sufficient entry hazard support. For those that wish to maximize Arceus's staying power, Leftovers takes full advantage of His bulk. It works well with a bulkier spread in combination with Recover, dropping Attack to make room for more defensive EVs. Power Herb can be used alongside Shadow Force and Stealth Rock support to always get past Lugia and specially defensive Giratina, but is otherwise very specific situational.</p>
<p>Although the given coverage moves are generally the most reliable, these slots are extremely flexible. A Life Orb-boosted Overheat incinerates Skarmory, Sableye, and Bronzong under sun, but is next to useless under rain. If Life Orb is forgone, Fire Blast is a better option while also having increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its increased power against Giratina and Giratina-O, but loses utility against Lugia and Ghost Arceus. Grass Knot 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon on the switch, but restricts coverage substantially. Similarly, Safeguard can prevent status for multiple turns, while Substitute eases prediction, protects against status, and punishes revenge killers.</p>

<p>Two approaches exist to counteract Arceus: defensive titans and revenge killers. Defensive titans consist of Toxic stallers, phazers, or Will-O-Wisp abusers
like such as Skarmory and Wallceus; revenge killers consist of Pokemon like such as Terrakion that can survive one of His faster boosted attacks comfortably yet deal considerable damage back. Arceus is specialized;: He might be able to overpower several checks with a given moveset, but He is unable to overpower everything. As such, against defensive titans, the best support is to weaken any defensive Pokemon capable of dealing with His specialization beforehand. Luring them out and sufficiently damaging them will make the most of His sweeping abilities. Pokemon such as Blaziken, Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza can make excellent lures, as Arceus's defensive answers are often used in response to these threats. Powerful wallbreakers such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Latios, Mewtwo, and Reshiram can blast holes through the opponent's team, possibly exposing these Pokemon as well as easing Arceus's sweep. Entry hazard shuffling is also beneficial in both the damage and exposure element. Finally, specific answers that can come in on troublesome defensive Pokemon happen to be excellent teammates. Magnezone can trap and eliminate Skarmory. Xatu and stallbreaker Heatran are excellent answers against Wallceus. Giratina and Lugia dislike Darkrai, Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W.</p>
<p>Regarding revenge killers, the best support is to weaken them to the point where a faster boosted attack can OHKO, cripple their Speed, or reduce their offense to a manageable level. Entry hazards are very helpful for their damaging properties; Pokemon such as Deoxys-S, Ferrothorn, and Groudon are excellent entry hazard users. Lures that are similarly revenged killed (this needs rephrasing, I can't really understand it.) to Arceus, like such as Swords Dance Rayquaza or double status Darkrai, can either deal considerable damage or cripple with status. Proper weather control through Pokemon like such as Kyogre and Groudon is crucial as several revenge killers, (comma) such as Kabutops, Omastar, and Choice Scarf Heatran, (comma) are dependent on it. Dual Screens from Pokemon like such as Deoxys-S and Latios can be helpful for softening enemy assaults. Carrying specific answers to His revenge killers is also a wise choice. For instance, Wobbuffet can dispatch Choice Scarf users while also buying Him a turn to use Swords Dance if necessary. Of course, keeping Arceus healthy is an option as most revenge killers are unable to OHKO Him should He be at relatively high health.</p>
[SET]
name: Wallceus (Physical Wall)
move 1: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
move 2: Recover
move 3: Return
move 4: Roar / Perish Song
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Standing up to the might of fearsome Uber titans, Wallceus can function as a nearly unbreakable wall. His Defense is so formidable that He is one of the best answers to Extreme Killer. Although His Normal typing isn't exactly the holy grail
for of defensive typings, He stands out from His other formes with a only one lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers.</p>
<p>To keep the physical attackers at bay, Will-O-Wisp is the preferred option. It disables nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers&mdash;Groudon, Rayquaza, physical Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few&mdash;with a crippling burn. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon like such as Ho-Oh. If these issues are bothersome, Reflect is a better option. Although it lasts only five turns and can be canceled by Brick Break, Reflect does not miss, benefits the whole team, and can affect physical attackers behind a Substitute. Recover provides reliable recovery and lengthens His staying power, while Return provides a solid STAB attack that increases offensive pressure. It also enables Him to defeat Extreme Killer without the need to phaze.</p>
<p>For His last slot, both options are useful for their utility against setup sweepers. Roar is the preferred option as it immediately phazes any threat that tries to set up, most notably physical attackers that have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. It also weakens most switch-ins provided that there is sufficient entry hazard support. For those willing to take a longer approach, Perish Song is a better option. Although it takes three turns to have an effect, Perish Song will virtually guarantee an eventual switch and will place an inevitable end to last-Pokemon setup sweepers like such as Calm Mind Arceus.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As the physical attackers of the Uber metagame have such destructive potential, bulk investment is mandatory to effectively take them on. Heavy investment in physical bulk is necessary to successfully tank Extreme Killer's ExtremeSpeed. As such, the given EVs and nature ensure maximum physical bulk while still allowing Him to outpace neutral base 95s. Nevertheless, Arceus can be specialized to outspeed certain threats. Most notably, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature takes full advantage of His base 120 Speed. By outspeeding most physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, by lowering His bulk, Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits is diminished. It also makes Him significantly more vulnerable to faster attacks, most notably ExtremeSpeed.</p>

<p>Instead of running an attacking move, Wallceus can run a non-attacking move to provide additional utility. If status issues are particularly bothersome, Refresh is an excellent option. Status moves
like such as Thunder Wave or Toxic improve His status arsenal, while Magic Coat reflects entry hazards, status moves, or Taunt when used with proper prediction. Stealth Rock is also usable as a last resort. However, these options forsake offensive pressure as well as increasing His vulnerability to Taunt users. Iron Defense is a possible option over Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. Although it does not cripple the physical attacker and is dependent on Arceus's continued presence, Iron Defense does not miss, cannot be canceled by Brick Break, has greater defensive potential, and does not depend on status. It is also the superior option against Extreme Killer; only faster Life Orb Brick Break variants are capable of overcoming Him. Judgment can be used over Return along with a Bold (or Timid) nature and Ice Beam as the last moveslot. Ice Beam has increased utility against those vulnerable to Ice-type attacks such as Groudon, Zekrom, Rayquaza, and Garchomp, but is less effective against setup sweepers that are not. Of course, there are several options over Return. Although ExtremeSpeed has reduced PP and Base Power, it bluffs Extreme Killer and provides valuable priority. Flamethrower with a Bold nature incinerates Ferrothorn and Forretress. Earthquake shatters Heatran, that which would otherwise wall this set completely.</p>
<p>Although Wallceus is difficult to take down, He is not invincible. Despite His very good uninvested special bulk, extremely powerful special attacks from the likes of Kyogre and Kyurem-W can be an issue. Tanking strong Fighting-type attacks from Pokemon such as Fighting Arceus and Heracross is also problematic. In addition, Wallceus lacks wide offensive coverage, which means He will always be vulnerable against certain checks as well as being possible entry hazard bait.</p>

<p>For teams that require a sturdy physical wall, Wallceus can be a fantastic choice. He provides excellent utility for dealing with physical setup sweepers, especially with access to Perish Song. However, because He is unspecialized against special attackers, Pokemon such as Kyogre, Chansey, Latias, Ho-Oh, and Lugia tend to be great teammates. In particular, Calm Mind users are excellent partners, as provided Arceus is running Will-O-Wisp, any crippled physical attacker is significantly less threatening to their possible sweep. Wallceus also appreciates teammates that can take on His Fighting-type weakness. Giratina and Giratina-O are excellent examples, as not only do they pack an immunity to Arceus's lone weakness, but they also spinblock the hazards that He can utilize for wearing down the opponent's team. Speaking of hazards, Wallceus greatly dislikes opposing entry hazards, as they compromise His excellent bulk. As such, Forretress is a great partner thanks to Rapid Spin, an immunity to Toxic, and its ability to provide entry hazards.</p>

[SET]
name: Bandceus (Choice Band)
move 1: Trick
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Swords Dance / Shadow Claw
move 4: Earthquake / Shadow Claw
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>As befitting His stature, Arceus can utilize a Choice Band set to devastating effect. His value is not only in His ability to revenge
kill threats such as Darkrai, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza with a stronger STAB ExtremeSpeed, but also His ability to lure the common checks of Extreme Killer.</p>
<p>Utilizing the fact that Arceus is often assumed to be Extreme Killer, Bandceus can Trick a Choice Band to the incoming check, granting an opportunity for another sweeper to press their newfound advantage. As after being Tricked a Choice Band, defensive answers like Skarmory and Lugia are turned into complete liabilities. However, Trick must be used with caution, for it is generally a one-way street. As such, it is critical that prior to using Trick, double switching is used to confirm the intended target is actually sent in.</p>

<p>Bandceus's remaining slots are dependent on His intended role. If sweeping potential is desired after His Choice Band has been Tricked, Swords Dance and one additional coverage move allows Him to take on a persona similar to Extreme Killer, albeit limited in coverage. Coverage moves can include Earthquake, which deals with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon, or Shadow Claw, which deals with Ghost-types. If better coverage at the cost of sweeping potential is desired, both Earthquake and Shadow Claw combined will suffice.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Much like Extreme Killer, Bandceus doesn't have much reason to bother with Speed. The given EVs and nature grant Him the same combination of maximum power, very good bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95s. But Bandceus
, (comma) just like Extreme Killer, (comma) has a multitude of spreads that can be used. Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. Most notably, 168 Speed EVs will outspeed positive base 95s like such as Jolly Rayquaza, while a Jolly nature with 252 Speed EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against other maximum Speed Arceus as well as outspeeding Terrakion. Once this the desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p>
<p>For those that prefer more power and PP, STAB (obvious, so unnecessary) Return can be used over ExtremeSpeed. It is capable of 2HKOing Lugia after Stealth Rock, but the loss of priority hinders His revenge killing capabilities, His sweeping potential, and His Extreme Killer disguise. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its chance of 2HKOing physically defensive Giratina-O after Stealth Rock, but loses utility against Ghost Arceus and Bronzong. Likewise, Punishment can be used for its utility against Calm Mind users such as Ghost Arceus, Giratina-O, and Latias, but is rather dependent on the opponent's boosts. For those seeking improved performance against Bronzong and Ferrothorn as well as the cancellation of screens, Brick Break can be used over Earthquake, though is otherwise much weaker in general.</p>
<p>When running Bandceus, one must be very careful to avoid running an inferior Extreme Killer. He has much less sweeping potential, so in order to justify His usage over Extreme Killer, it is critical that His lure and revenge killing capabilities are taken advantage of. As such, it is mandatory that He is paired up with offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of Extreme Killer's crippled checks. Good examples range from Blaziken to Ho-Oh and to Groudon to Rayquaza (or maybe even just "from Blaziken to Rayquaza" - a lot of examples is probably unnecessary). Regarding Arceus Himself, it is important to patch up any moveslot shortcomings. For example, should He be running Earthquake as His sole coverage move, some way of dealing with Giratina-O is essential. Of course, carrying teammates that specifically deal with His checks and counters is a very wise choice. For example, Latias deals with Fighting Arceus, while Giratina or Giratina-O have an immunity to His only weakness and can spinblock.</p>
[Other Options]

<p>With His extraordinary movepool and
His second to none stats second to none, Arceus can fill almost any role. He could run a Calm Mind or Work Up set to utilize His excellent stats. He could run a Perish Trapping set with Perish Song and Whirlpool. He could run a dual screens set in combination with Light Clay. He could run a Choice Specs set, a specially inclined version of the Choice Band set. Or He could run a Swords Dance Last Resort set to obliterate anything that is not a Ghost-type. For all intents and purposes, the choice is entirely up to you.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, due to Species Clause, only a single Arceus is allowed on a team at a time. As such, the opportunity cost of running such sets will be high. Indeed, these sets are unorthodox for a reason: the Calm Mind or Work Up set has horrible STAB coverage in comparison to other Arceus formes; Perish Trapping is extremely unreliable in Ubers; dual screens is best left to other Pokemon; the Choice Specs set lacks power plus utility; and the Last Resort set requires a considerable amount of support. That being said, if these sets are of particular interest, then feel free to use them.</p>
[Checks and Counters]

<p>Should one see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting any answer be in danger
(unclear, should be rephrased). While there is no true counter to Extreme Killer outside of Unaware Quagsire, there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia. All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death should they be healthy or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item, albeit in circumstantial situations. Toxic Skarmory falls to non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts and has to be wary of last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks. Faster boosted Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are problematic should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a boosted Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock. All of them also have to must watch out for the rare Bandceus, that can Trick a crippling Choice Band.</p>
<p>Rather than pseudo-countering Extreme Killer, it is easier to keep Him in check using multiple Pokemon through concerted means. For example, although Choice Scarf Terrakion cannot switch into Earthquake, it can easily survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and revenge kill with Close Combat. However, should Arceus manage to survive, a combination check can be used to finish Him off. Offensive Ghost Arceus is an excellent example, as His immunity to ExtremeSpeed allows Him to revenge kill weakened Extreme Killer. With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer.</p>
<p>Thanks to priority Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play, Sableye is an excellent check. However, it will lose to sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat or Lum Berry Earthquake variants after Stealth Rock. Support Ghost Arceus can be used similarly to Wallceus, but the lack of Leftovers, a strong attacking move, and His weakness to Shadow Force and Shadow Claw makes Him the lesser check. Physically defensive Groudon and Hippowdon are very effective phazers, but can be worn down. Rock and Steel Arceus can also use a support set like Ghost Arceus, but the weakness to Earthquake and Brick Break is quite unfortunate. Likewise, Fighting Arceus favors an approach similar to Terrakion, but obtains reliable recovery and bulk at the cost of power and the resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Thankfully, Arceus formes that carry plates are very effective against Bandceus, though they dislike taking super effective attacks.</p>

<p>Although it loses to Brick Break and non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts, a physically defensive Bronzong can stall many variants. Along the same lines as Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, other revenge killers can include Choice Scarf users such as Dialga and Heatran or Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Omastar. However, they are generally less effective due to
their weather dependency or lack of power. A physically defensive Giratina-O variant can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage or possibly OHKO with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but will still is still able to cripple Him. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn can prove to be annoying with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but it will almost always result in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can truly stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>
<p>It is to be noted that as Wallceus is more inclined to defeating answers with attrition, He necessitates a very different response than that of Extreme Killer. Thanks to STAB Fighting-type attacks and Recover, Fighting Arceus is Wallceus's best counter. Fire Arceus is similar and has an immunity to burn, but lacks Fighting Arceus's consistent damage. Despite its vulnerability to attrition and lack of reliable recovery, stallbreaker Heatran shuts down any Wallceus that lacks the obscure Earthquake thanks to Taunt and Toxic.</p>

<p>Any other answer to Wallceus is either easily worn down, can be phazed before significant damage is done, or is vulnerable to Return. Magic Bounce Xatu can switch into any move besides Return after Stealth Rock or Ice Beam and proceed to completely wall Arceus. Heracross can take advantage of a possible Attack
raise boost through Guts, allowing it to pulverize Him with Close Combat. Reshiram and Victini roast Arceus with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Blaziken smashes Him with High Hi Jump Kick or sun-boosted Flare Blitz, but has to be mindful of Reflect. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W are particularly threatening due to Wallceus's lack of specialization against special attackers. Should the weather be sun, Ho-Oh can switch into any move but Return after Stealth Rock and proceed to deal considerable damage with Sacred Fire. However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost, though the possible burn is an annoyance. Support Pokemon that can inflict detrimental statuses like such as Toxic, preferably with a method of alleviating status, can be quite effective against Wallceus. However, they are significantly less viable against Refresh variants.</p>
 
Last edited:
#45
Thanks for your AM check piiiikachuuu; I have implemented most of your changes :toast:.

Here are the word counts before and after:
Overview: 120
Extreme Killer: 1172 (from 1168)
Wallceus: 892 (from 889)
Bandceus: 626 (from 625)
Other Options: 205 (from 203)
Checks and Counters: 978 (from 969)
TOTAL: 3993 (from 3974)
For reference, here is the changelog:
[OVERVIEW]

<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in awe and wondrous presentiment at what is conceivably the best Pokemon in the entire game. His stats are unrivaled; His versatility is unmatched. His impact remains unquestionable. As ordained at the shaping of the universe, His purest forme is somewhat deficient in defensive synergy. A lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks is tempered with a sole immunity to Ghost-type attacks. But whether wiping His many creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer or standing as their resolute guardian by as Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>

[SET]
name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Thanks to Extreme Killer's very good bulk and the priority of His ExtremeSpeed, He is very difficult to revenge kill. Combine it with a base 120 Attack stat, the ease of setting up a Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the best late-game sweepers in the entire game, capable of decimating offensive teams and cleaning up weakened defensive teams with ease.</p>

<p>Swords Dance will enhance the power of His STAB ExtremeSpeed to incredible levels. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is more than capable enough to OHKO even the deadliest of Uber titans, such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Latias, Palkia, and Reshiram.</p>

<p>To repel the Ghost-types that can come in on ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Claw is the preferred option in the third slot for its high reliability. For those that crave more power, Shadow Force is a better another option. Its power after a Swords Dance is so extreme that even physically defensive Giratina risks being OHKOed without any hazards provided Arceus is Adamant and holding Life Orb; Giratina-O, Ghost Arceus, and Wobbuffet are easily OHKOed. Shadow Force also evades crippling support moves such as Will-O-Wisp during its charge turn, though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against Lugia and Normal-type Pokemon. For His last slot, Earthquake eradicates the Rock- and Steel-types that could otherwise take an ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga or Heatran. Brick Break, though less powerful, breaks through troublesome screens and is significantly more effective against Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Wallceus. Recover improves His longevity and allows Him to act as a pivot at the detriment of coverage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With STAB ExtremeSpeed as His judgment, one might wonder why Arceus even bothers with Speed. After all, the given EVs and nature grant Him a superb combination of maximum power, bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95s. But alas, Arceus's incredible versatility allows Him to run several EV spreads just as effective as the last. Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. To outspeed positive base 90s like Timid Dialga, 124 Speed EVs is sufficient. 168 Speed EVs will outspeed any positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza. For other key threats, a Jolly nature becomes necessary. 160 Speed EVs is sufficient for outspeeding Terrakion. 176 Spe EVs will outpace positive base 110s like Froslass. Finally, 252 Speed EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against maximum Speed Arceus; this, which makes them unreliable answers, especially if they're using Will-O-Wisp. Once this the desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p>

<p>Unlike His other formes, Extreme Killer can utilize almost any item. For those seeking a balanced approach, Silk Scarf is the preferred option. It provides a 20% boost to ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk. For a more offensive touch, Life Orb provides a great deal more power to all of Arceus's attacks, though the recoil damage is unfortunate. With just a Life Orb and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is capable of OHKOing threats such as Kyurem-B, Zekrom, and tank Ho-Oh without any hazards. It is also the best item to use against His top defensive checks. If the Speed of Jolly is favored, Life Orb is recommended to compensate for its reduced the loss of power in comparison with Adamant. For those that favor one-time status protection, Lum Berry is the best option. It is particularly useful for its utility in lead and SmashPass situations. However, the power loss is substantial;: without the boost from Silk Scarf or Life Orb, Arceus is unable to OHKO many Pokemon like Palkia and Mewtwo without sufficient entry hazard support. For those that wish to maximize Arceus's staying power, Leftovers takes full advantage of His bulk. It works well with a bulkier spread in combination with Recover, dropping Attack to make room for more defensive EVs. Power Herb can be used alongside Shadow Force and Stealth Rock support to always get past Lugia and specially defensive Giratina, but is otherwise very specific very situational.</p>

<p>Although the given coverage moves are generally the most reliable, these slots are extremely flexible. A Life Orb-boosted Overheat incinerates Skarmory, Sableye, and Bronzong under sun, but is next to useless under rain. If Life Orb is forgone, Fire Blast is a better option while also having increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its increased power against Giratina and Giratina-O, but loses utility against Lugia and Ghost Arceus. Grass Knot 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon on the switch, but restricts coverage substantially. Similarly, Safeguard can prevent status for multiple turns, while Substitute eases prediction, protects against status, and punishes revenge killers.</p>

<p>Two approaches exist to counteract Arceus: defensive titans and revenge killers. Defensive titans consist of Toxic stallers, phazers, or Will-O-Wisp abusers like Skarmory and Wallceus; revenge killers consist of Pokemon like Terrakion that can survive one of His faster boosted attacks comfortably yet deal considerable damage back. Arceus is specialized;: He might be able to overpower several checks with a given moveset, but He is unable to overpower everything. As such, against defensive titans, the best support is to weaken any defensive Pokemon capable of dealing with His specialization beforehand. Luring them out and sufficiently damaging them will make the most of His sweeping abilities. Pokemon such as Blaziken, Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza can make excellent lures, as Arceus's defensive answers are often used in response to these threats. Powerful wallbreakers such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Latios, Mewtwo, and Reshiram can blast holes through the opponent's team, possibly exposing these Pokemon as well as easing Arceus's sweep. Entry hazard shuffling is also beneficial in both the damage and exposure element. Finally, specific answers that can come in on troublesome defensive Pokemon happen to be excellent teammates. Magnezone can trap and eliminate Skarmory. Xatu and stallbreaker Heatran are excellent answers against Wallceus. Giratina and Lugia dislike Darkrai, Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W.</p>

<p>Regarding revenge killers, the best support is to weaken them to the point where a faster boosted attack can OHKO, cripple their Speed, or reduce their offense to a manageable level. Entry hazards are very helpful for their damaging properties; Pokemon such as Deoxys-S, Ferrothorn, and Groudon are excellent entry hazard users. Lures that are similarly revenged killed to Arceus, like such as Swords Dance Rayquaza or double status Darkrai, can either deal considerable damage or cripple with status. Proper weather control through Pokemon like such as Kyogre and Groudon is crucial as several revenge killers, such as Kabutops, Omastar, and Choice Scarf Heatran, are dependent on it. Dual Screens from Pokemon like Deoxys-S and Latios can be helpful for softening enemy assaults. Carrying specific answers to His revenge killers is also a wise choice. For instance, Wobbuffet can dispatch Choice Scarf users while also buying Him a turn to use Swords Dance if necessary. Of course, keeping Arceus healthy is an option as most revenge killers are unable to OHKO Him should He be at relatively high health.</p>

[SET]
name: Wallceus (Physical Wall)
move 1: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
move 2: Recover
move 3: Return
move 4: Roar / Perish Song
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Standing up to the might of fearsome Uber titans, Wallceus can function as a nearly unbreakable wall. His Defense is so formidable that He is one of the best answers to Extreme Killer. Although His Normal typing isn't exactly the holy grail for of defensive typings, He stands out from His other formes with a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers.</p>

<p>To keep the physical attackers at bay, Will-O-Wisp is the preferred option. It disables nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers&mdash;Groudon, Rayquaza, physical Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few&mdash;with a crippling burn. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon like Ho-Oh. If these issues are bothersome, Reflect is a better option. Although it lasts only five turns and can be canceled by Brick Break, Reflect does not miss, benefits the whole team, and can affect physical attackers behind a Substitute. Recover provides reliable recovery and lengthens His staying power, while Return provides a solid STAB attack that increases offensive pressure. It also enables Him to defeat Extreme Killer without the need to phaze.</p>

<p>For His last slot, both options are useful for their utility against setup sweepers. Roar is the preferred option as it immediately phazes any threat that tries to set up, most notably physical attackers that have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. It also weakens most switch-ins provided that there is sufficient entry hazard support. For those willing to take a longer approach, Perish Song is a better option. Although it takes three turns to have an effect, Perish Song will virtually guarantee an eventual switch and will place an inevitable end to last-Pokemon setup sweepers like such as Calm Mind Arceus.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As the physical attackers of the Uber metagame have such destructive potential, bulk investment is mandatory to effectively take them on. Heavy investment in physical bulk is necessary to successfully tank Extreme Killer's ExtremeSpeed. As such, the given EVs and nature ensure maximum physical bulk while still allowing Him to outpace neutral base 95s. Nevertheless, Arceus can be specialized to outspeed certain threats. Most notably, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature takes full advantage of His base 120 Speed. By outspeeding most physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, by lowering His bulk, Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits is diminished. It also makes Him significantly more vulnerable to faster attacks, most notably ExtremeSpeed.</p>

<p>Instead of running an attacking move, Wallceus can run a non-attacking move to provide additional utility. If status issues are particularly bothersome, Refresh is an excellent option. Status moves like such as Thunder Wave or Toxic improve His status arsenal, while Magic Coat reflects entry hazards, status moves, or Taunt when used with proper prediction. Stealth Rock is also usable as a last resort. However, these options forsake offensive pressure as well as increasing His vulnerability to Taunt users. Iron Defense is a possible option over Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. Although it does not cripple the physical attacker and is dependent on Arceus's continued presence, Iron Defense does not miss, cannot be canceled by Brick Break, has greater defensive potential, and does not depend on status. It is also the superior option against Extreme Killer; only faster Life Orb Brick Break variants are capable of overcoming Him. Judgment can be used over Return along with a Bold (or Timid) nature and Ice Beam as the last moveslot. Ice Beam has increased utility against those vulnerable to Ice-type attacks such as Groudon, Zekrom, Rayquaza, and Garchomp, but is less effective against setup sweepers that are not. Of course, there are several options over Return. Although ExtremeSpeed has reduced PP and Base Power, it bluffs Extreme Killer and provides valuable priority. Flamethrower with a Bold nature incinerates Ferrothorn and Forretress. Earthquake shatters Heatran, that which would otherwise wall this set completely.</p>

<p>Although Wallceus is difficult to take down, He is not invincible. Despite His very good uninvested special bulk, extremely powerful special attacks from the likes of Kyogre and Kyurem-W can be an issue. Tanking strong Fighting-type attacks from Pokemon such as Fighting Arceus and Heracross is also problematic. In addition, Wallceus lacks wide offensive coverage, which means He will always be vulnerable against certain checks as well as being possible entry hazard bait.</p>

<p>For teams that require a sturdy physical wall, Wallceus can be a fantastic choice. He provides excellent utility for dealing with physical setup sweepers, especially with access to Perish Song. However, because He is unspecialized against special attackers, Pokemon such as Kyogre, Chansey, Latias, Ho-Oh, and Lugia tend to be great teammates. In particular, Calm Mind users are excellent partners, as provided Arceus is running Will-O-Wisp, any crippled physical attacker is significantly less threatening to their possible sweep. Wallceus also appreciates teammates that can take on His Fighting-type weakness. Giratina and Giratina-O are excellent examples, as not only do they pack an immunity to Arceus's lone weakness, but they also spinblock the hazards that He can utilize for wearing down the opponent's team. Speaking of hazards, Wallceus greatly dislikes opposing entry hazards, as they compromise His excellent bulk. As such, Forretress is a great partner thanks to Rapid Spin, an immunity to Toxic, and its ability to provide entry hazards.</p>

[SET]
name: Bandceus (Choice Band)
move 1: Trick
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Swords Dance / Shadow Claw
move 4: Earthquake / Shadow Claw
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>As befitting His stature, Arceus can utilize a Choice Band set to devastating effect. His value is not only in His ability to revenge kill threats such as Darkrai, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza with a stronger STAB ExtremeSpeed, but also His ability to lure the common checks of Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Utilizing the fact that Arceus is often assumed to be Extreme Killer, Bandceus can Trick a Choice Band to the incoming check, granting an opportunity for another sweeper to press their newfound advantage. As after being Tricked a Choice Band, defensive answers like Skarmory and Lugia are turned into complete liabilities. However, Trick must be used with caution, for it is generally a one-way street. As such, it is critical that prior to using Trick, double switching is used to confirm the intended target is actually sent in.</p>

<p>Bandceus's remaining slots are dependent on His intended role. If sweeping potential is desired after His Choice Band has been Tricked, Swords Dance and one additional coverage move allows Him to take on a persona similar to Extreme Killer, albeit limited in coverage. Coverage moves can include Earthquake, which deals with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon, or Shadow Claw, which deals with Ghost-types. If better coverage at the cost of sweeping potential is desired, both Earthquake and Shadow Claw combined will suffice.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Much like Extreme Killer, Bandceus doesn't have much reason to bother with Speed. The given EVs and nature grant Him the same combination of maximum power, very good bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95s. But Bandceus, just like Extreme Killer, has a multitude of spreads that can be used. Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. Most notably, 168 Speed EVs will outspeed positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza, while a Jolly nature with 252 Speed EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against maximum Speed Arceus as well as outspeeding Terrakion. Once this the desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p>

<p>For those that prefer more power and PP, STAB Return can be used over ExtremeSpeed. It is capable of 2HKOing Lugia after Stealth Rock, but the loss of priority hinders His revenge killing capabilities, His sweeping potential, and His Extreme Killer disguise. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its chance of 2HKOing physically defensive Giratina-O after Stealth Rock, but loses utility against Ghost Arceus and Bronzong. Likewise, Punishment can be used for its utility against Calm Mind users such as Ghost Arceus, Giratina-O, and Latias, but is rather dependent on the opponent's boosts. For those seeking improved performance against Bronzong and Ferrothorn as well as the cancellation of screens, Brick Break can be used over Earthquake, though is otherwise much weaker in general.</p>

<p>When running Bandceus, one must be very careful to avoid running an inferior Extreme Killer. He has much less sweeping potential, so in order to justify His usage over Extreme Killer, it is critical that His lure and revenge killing capabilities are taken advantage of. As such, it is mandatory that He is paired up with offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of Extreme Killer's crippled checks. Good examples range from Blaziken to Ho-Oh and Groudon to Rayquaza. Regarding Arceus Himself, it is important to patch up any moveslot shortcomings. For example, should He be running Earthquake as His sole coverage move, some way of dealing with Giratina-O is essential. Of course, carrying teammates that specifically deal with His checks and counters is a very wise choice. For example, Latias deals with Fighting Arceus, while Giratina or Giratina-O have an immunity to His only weakness and can spinblock.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>With His extraordinary movepool and stat His second to none stats, Arceus can fill almost any role. He could run a Calm Mind or Work Up set to utilize His excellent stats. He could run a Perish Trapping set with Perish Song and Whirlpool. He could run a dual screens set in combination with Light Clay. He could run a Choice Specs set, a specially inclined version of the Choice Band set. Or He could run a Swords Dance Last Resort set to obliterate anything that is not a Ghost-type. For all intents and purposes, the choice is entirely up to you.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, due to Species Clause, only a single Arceus is allowed on a team at a time. As such, the opportunity cost of running such sets will be high. Indeed, these sets are unorthodox for a reason: the Calm Mind or Work Up set has horrible STAB coverage in comparison to other Arceus formes; Perish Trapping is extremely unreliable in Ubers; dual screens is best left to other Pokemon; the Choice Specs set lacks power plus utility; and the Last Resort set requires a considerable amount of support. That being said, if these sets are of particular interest, then feel free to use them.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Should one see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting any His answers be in danger. While there is no true counter to Extreme Killer outside of Unaware Quagsire, there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia. All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death should they be healthy or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item, albeit in circumstantial situations. Toxic Skarmory falls to non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts and has to be wary of last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks. Faster boosted Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are problematic should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a boosted Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock. All of them also have to must also watch out for the rare Bandceus, that can Trick a crippling Choice Band.</p>

<p>Rather than pseudo-countering Extreme Killer, it is easier to keep Him in check using multiple Pokemon through concerted means. For example, although Choice Scarf Terrakion cannot switch into Earthquake, it can easily survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and revenge kill with Close Combat. However, should Arceus manage to survive, a combination check can be used to finish Him off. Offensive Ghost Arceus is an excellent example, as His immunity to ExtremeSpeed allows Him to revenge kill weakened Extreme Killer. With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Thanks to priority Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play, Sableye is an excellent check. However, it will lose to sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat or Lum Berry Earthquake variants after Stealth Rock. Support Ghost Arceus can be used similarly to Wallceus, but the lack of Leftovers, a strong attacking move, and His weakness to Shadow Force and Shadow Claw makes Him the lesser check. Physically defensive Groudon and Hippowdon are very effective phazers, but can be worn down. Rock and Steel Arceus can also use a support set like Ghost Arceus, but the weakness to Earthquake and Brick Break is quite unfortunate. Likewise, Fighting Arceus favors an approach similar to Terrakion, but obtains reliable recovery and bulk at the cost of power and the resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Thankfully, Arceus formes that carry plates are very effective against Bandceus, though they dislike taking super effective attacks.</p>

<p>Although it loses to Brick Break and non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts, a physically defensive Bronzong can stall many variants. Along the same lines as Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, other revenge killers can include Choice Scarf users such as Dialga and Heatran or Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Omastar. However, they are generally less effective due to their weather dependency or lack of power. A physically defensive Giratina-O variant can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage or possibly OHKO with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but will still is still able to cripple Him. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn can prove annoying is an annoyance with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but it will almost always result in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can truly stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>

<p>It is to be noted that as Wallceus is more inclined to defeating answers with attrition, He necessitates a very different response than that of Extreme Killer. Thanks to STAB Fighting-type attacks and Recover, Fighting Arceus is Wallceus's best counter. Fire Arceus is similar and has an immunity to burn, but lacks Fighting Arceus's consistent damage. Despite its vulnerability to attrition and lack of reliable recovery, stallbreaker Heatran shuts down any Wallceus that lacks the obscure Earthquake thanks to Taunt and Toxic.</p>

<p>Any other answer to Wallceus is either easily worn down, can be phazed before significant damage is done, or is vulnerable to Return. Magic Bounce Xatu can switch into any move besides Return after Stealth Rock or Ice Beam and proceed to completely wall Arceus. Heracross can take advantage of a possible Attack raise boost through Guts, allowing it to pulverize Him with Close Combat. Reshiram and Victini roast Arceus with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Blaziken smashes Him with High Jump Kick or sun-boosted Flare Blitz, but has to be mindful of Reflect. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W are particularly threatening due to Wallceus's lack of specialization against special attackers. Should the weather be sun, Ho-Oh can switch into any move but Return after Stealth Rock and proceed to deal considerable damage with Sacred Fire. However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost, though the possible burn is an annoyance. Support Pokemon that can inflict detrimental status effects like Toxic poison, preferably with a method of alleviating status, can be quite effective against Wallceus. However, they are significantly less viable against Refresh variants.</p>
As well as some comments regarding the AM check:
piiiikachuuu said:
(this needs rephrasing, I can't really understand it.)
It has now been simplified/rephrased.
piiiikachuuu said:
(or maybe even just "from Blaziken to Rayquaza" - a lot of examples is probably unnecessary)
Hmm... when I wrote this sentence, I imagine the intent was to provide several good examples to give the reader a general idea on which offensive Pokemon can take advantage of Extreme Killer's crippled checks. As such, I think keeping these examples for the time being might be a good idea, especially since these Pokemon are mentioned in the Extreme Killer teammates section in some form.
piiiikachuuu said:
(obvious, so unnecessary)
"STAB" has now been removed.
piiiikachuuu said:
(unclear, should be rephrased)
It has now been rephrased.

Regarding the rest of your changes piiiikachuuu, I found them to be quite reasonable and I have no problem with their implementation (Aside from a little rewording and such). However, I noticed that most references to “like” were being removed. I might be wrong about this, but since “like” is (for the most part) being used with non-specific examples, I think it's fine to keep most of them for the time being. Take for example Oglemi’s view:
Oglemi said:
such as is for specific examples

like is for general examples with the assumption that there are more examples of the same kind than listed
Nevertheless, I meticulously went over every “such as” and “like” reference again.

Thanks for all your help piiiikachuuu!

------------------------​

The Arceus analysis is ready for the next GP check.
 
Last edited:

Oglemi

oh my gosh you found me
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Secret Boss Mod
#46
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[Overview]

<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in awe and wondrous presentiment at what is conceivably the best Pokemon in the entire game. His stats are unrivaled; His versatility is unmatched. His impact remains unquestionable. As ordained at the shaping of the universe, His purest forme is somewhat deficient in defensive synergy. A lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks is tempered with a sole immunity to Ghost-type attacks. But whether wiping His many creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer or standing as their resolute guardian as Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>

[SET]
name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Thanks to Extreme Killer's very good bulk and the priority of His ExtremeSpeed, He is very difficult to revenge kill. Combine it with a base 120 Attack stat, the ease of setting up a Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the best late-game sweepers in the entire game, capable of decimating offensive teams and cleaning up weakened defensive teams with ease.</p>

<p>Swords Dance will enhance the power of His STAB ExtremeSpeed to incredible levels. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is more than capable enough to OHKO even the deadliest of Uber titans, such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Latias, Palkia, and Reshiram.</p>

<p>To repel the Ghost-types that can come in on ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Claw is the preferred option in the third slot for its high reliability. For those that crave more power, Shadow Force is another option. Its power after a Swords Dance is so extreme that even physically defensive Giratina risks being OHKOed without any hazards provided Arceus is Adamant and holding Life Orb; Giratina-O, Ghost Arceus, and Wobbuffet are easily OHKOed. Shadow Force also evades crippling support moves such as Will-O-Wisp during its charge turn, though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against Lugia and Normal-type Pokemon. For His last slot, Earthquake eradicates the Rock- and Steel-types that could otherwise take an ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga or Heatran. Brick Break, though less powerful, breaks through troublesome screens and is significantly more effective against Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Wallceus. Recover improves His longevity and allows Him to act as a pivot at the detriment of coverage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With STAB ExtremeSpeed as His judgment, one might wonder why Arceus even bothers with Speed. After all, the given EVs and nature grant Him a superb combination of maximum power, bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95s. But alas, Arceus's incredible versatility allows Him to run several EV spreads just as effective as the last. Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. To outspeed positive base 90s like Timid Dialga, 124 Speed EVs is sufficient. 168 Speed EVs will outspeed any positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza. For other key threats, a Jolly nature becomes necessary. 160 Speed EVs is sufficient for outspeeding Terrakion. 176 Spe EVs will outpace positive base 110s like Froslass. Finally, 252 Speed EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against maximum Speed Arceus, which makes them unreliable answers, especially if they're using Will-O-Wisp. Once the desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p>

<p>Unlike His other formes, Extreme Killer can utilize almost any item. For those seeking a balanced approach, Silk Scarf is the preferred option. It provides a 20% boost to ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk. For a more offensive touch, Life Orb provides a great deal more power to all of Arceus's attacks, though the recoil damage is unfortunate. With just a Life Orb and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is capable of OHKOing threats such as Kyurem-B, Zekrom, and tank Ho-Oh without any hazards. It is also the best item to use against His top defensive checks. If the Speed of Jolly is favored, Life Orb is recommended to compensate for the loss of power in comparison with Adamant. For those that favor one-time status protection, Lum Berry is the best option. It is particularly useful for its utility in lead positions and SmashPass situations. However, the power loss is substantial: without the boost from Silk Scarf or Life Orb, Arceus is unable to OHKO many Pokemon like Palkia and Mewtwo without sufficient entry hazard support. For those that wish to maximize Arceus's staying power, Leftovers takes full advantage of His bulk. It works well with a bulkier spread in combination with Recover, dropping Attack to make room for more defensive EVs. Power Herb can be used alongside Shadow Force and Stealth Rock support to always get past Lugia and specially defensive Giratina, but is very situational.</p>

<p>Although the given coverage moves are generally the most reliable, these slots are extremely flexible. A Life Orb-boosted Overheat incinerates Skarmory, Sableye, and Bronzong under sun, but is next to useless under rain. If Life Orb is forgone, Fire Blast is a better option while also having increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its increased power against Giratina and Giratina-O, but loses utility against Lugia and Ghost Arceus. Grass Knot 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon on the switch, but restricts coverage substantially. Similarly, Safeguard can prevent status for multiple turns, while Substitute eases prediction, protects against status, and punishes revenge killers.</p>

<p>Two approaches exist to counteract Arceus: defensive titans and revenge killers. Defensive titans consist of Toxic stallers, phazers, or Will-O-Wisp users like Skarmory and Wallceus; revenge killers consist of Pokemon like Terrakion that can survive one of His faster boosted attacks comfortably yet deal considerable damage back. Arceus is specialized: He might be able to overpower several checks with a given moveset, but He is unable to overpower everything. As such, against defensive titans, the best support is to weaken any defensive Pokemon capable of dealing with His specialization beforehand. Luring them out and sufficiently damaging them will make the most of His sweeping abilities. Pokemon such as Blaziken, Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza can make excellent lures, as Arceus's defensive answers are often used in response to these threats. Powerful wallbreakers such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Latios, Mewtwo, and Reshiram can blast holes through the opponent's team, possibly exposing these Pokemon as well as easing Arceus's sweep. Entry hazard shuffling is also beneficial in both the damage and exposure element. Finally, specific answers that can come in on troublesome defensive Pokemon happen to be excellent teammates. Magnezone can trap and eliminate Skarmory. Xatu and stallbreaker Heatran are excellent answers against Wallceus. Giratina and Lugia dislike Darkrai, Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W.</p>

<p>Regarding revenge killers, the best support is to weaken them to the point where a faster boosted attack can OHKO, cripple their Speed, or reduce their offense to a manageable level. Entry hazards are very helpful for their damaging properties; Pokemon such as Deoxys-S, Ferrothorn, and Groudon are excellent entry hazard users. Lures such as Swords Dance Rayquaza or double status Darkrai can either deal considerable damage or cripple with status. Proper weather control through Pokemon such as Kyogre and Groudon is crucial as several revenge killers, such as Kabutops, Omastar, and Choice Scarf Heatran, are dependent on it. Dual screens from Pokemon like Deoxys-S and Latios can be helpful for softening enemy assaults. Carrying specific answers to His revenge killers is also a wise choice. For instance, Wobbuffet can dispatch Choice Scarf users while also buying Him a turn to use Swords Dance if necessary. Of course, keeping Arceus healthy is an option as most revenge killers are unable to OHKO Him should He be at relatively high health.</p>

[SET]
name: Wallceus (Physical Wall)
move 1: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
move 2: Recover
move 3: Return
move 4: Roar / Perish Song
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Standing up to the might of fearsome Uber titans, Wallceus can function as a nearly unbreakable wall. His Defense is so formidable that He is one of the best answers to even Extreme Killer. Although His Normal typing isn't exactly the holy grail of defensive typings, He stands out from His other formes with a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers.</p>

<p>To keep the physical attackers at bay, Will-O-Wisp is the preferred option. It disables nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers&mdash;Groudon, Rayquaza, physical Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few&mdash;with a crippling burn. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon like Ho-Oh. If these issues are bothersome, Reflect is a better option. Although it lasts only five turns and can be canceled by Brick Break, Reflect does not miss, benefits the whole team, and can affect physical attackers behind a Substitute. Recover provides reliable recovery and lengthens His staying power, while Return provides a solid STAB attack that increases offensive pressure. It also enables Him to defeat Extreme Killer without the need to phaze.</p>

<p>For His last slot, both options are useful for their utility against setup sweepers. Roar is the preferred option as it immediately phazes any threat that tries to set up, most notably physical attackers that have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. It also weakens most switch-ins provided that there is sufficient entry hazard support. For those willing to take a longer approach, Perish Song is a better option. Although it takes three turns to have an effect, Perish Song will virtually guarantee an eventual switch and will place an inevitable end to last-Pokemon setup sweepers such as Calm Mind Arceus.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As the physical attackers of the Uber metagame have such destructive potential, bulk investment is mandatory to effectively take them on. Heavy investment in physical bulk is necessary to successfully tank Extreme Killer's ExtremeSpeed. As such, the given EVs and nature ensure maximum physical bulk while still allowing Him to outpace neutral base 95s. Nevertheless, Arceus can be specialized to outspeed certain threats. Most notably, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature takes full advantage of His base 120 Speed. By outspeeding most physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, by lowering His bulk, Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits is diminished. It also makes Him significantly more vulnerable to faster attacks, most notably ExtremeSpeed.</p>

<p>Instead of running an attacking move, Wallceus can run a non-attacking move to provide additional utility. If status issues are particularly bothersome, Refresh is an excellent option. Status moves such as Thunder Wave or Toxic improve His status arsenal, while Magic Coat reflects entry hazards, status moves, or Taunt when used with proper prediction. Stealth Rock is also usable as a last resort. However, these options forsake offensive pressure as well as increasing His vulnerability to Taunt users. Iron Defense is a possible option over Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. Although it does not cripple the physical attacker and is dependent on Arceus's continued presence, Iron Defense does not miss, cannot be canceled by Brick Break, has greater defensive potential, and does not depend on status. It is also the superior option against Extreme Killer; only faster Life Orb Brick Break variants are capable of overcoming Him. Judgment can be used over Return along with a Bold (or Timid) nature and Ice Beam as the last moveslot. Ice Beam has increased utility against those vulnerable to Ice-type attacks such as Groudon, Zekrom, Rayquaza, and Garchomp, but is less effective against setup sweepers that are not. Of course, there are several options over Return. Although ExtremeSpeed has reduced PP and Base Power, it bluffs Extreme Killer and provides valuable priority. Flamethrower with a Bold nature incinerates Ferrothorn and Forretress. Earthquake shatters Heatran, which would otherwise wall this set completely.</p>

<p>Although Wallceus is difficult to take down, He is not invincible. Despite His very good uninvested special bulk, extremely powerful special attacks from the likes of Kyogre and Kyurem-W can be an issue. Tanking strong Fighting-type attacks from Pokemon such as Fighting Arceus and Heracross is also problematic. In addition, Wallceus lacks wide offensive coverage, which means He will always be vulnerable against certain checks as well as being possible entry hazard bait.</p>

<p>For teams that require a sturdy physical wall, Wallceus can be a fantastic choice. He provides excellent utility for dealing with physical setup sweepers, especially with access to Perish Song. However, because He is unspecialized against special attackers, Pokemon such as Kyogre, Chansey, Latias, Ho-Oh, and Lugia tend to be great teammates. In particular, Calm Mind users are excellent partners, since provided that Arceus is running Will-O-Wisp, any crippled physical attacker is significantly less threatening to their possible sweep. Wallceus also appreciates teammates that can take on His Fighting-type weakness. Giratina and Giratina-O are excellent examples, as not only do they pack an immunity to Arceus's lone weakness, but they also spinblock the hazards that He can utilize for wearing down the opponent's team. Speaking of hazards, Wallceus greatly dislikes opposing entry hazards, as they compromise His excellent bulk. As such, Forretress is a great partner thanks to Rapid Spin, an immunity to Toxic, and its ability to provide entry hazards.</p>

[SET]
name: Bandceus (Choice Band)
move 1: Trick
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Swords Dance / Shadow Claw
move 4: Earthquake / Shadow Claw
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>As befitting His stature, Arceus can utilize a Choice Band set to devastating effect. His value is not only in His ability to revenge kill threats such as Darkrai, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza with a stronger STAB ExtremeSpeed, but also His ability to lure the common checks of Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Utilizing the fact that Arceus is often assumed to be Extreme Killer, Bandceus can Trick a Choice Band to the incoming check, granting an opportunity for another sweeper to press their newfound advantage. As After being Tricked a Choice Band, defensive answers like Skarmory and Lugia are turned into complete liabilities. However, Trick must be used with caution, for it is generally a one-way street. As such, it is critical that prior to using Trick, double switching is used to confirm the intended target is actually sent in.</p>

<p>Bandceus's remaining slots are dependent on His intended role. If sweeping potential is desired after His Choice Band has been Tricked, Swords Dance and one additional coverage move allows Him to take on a persona similar to Extreme Killer, albeit limited in coverage. Coverage moves can include Earthquake, which deals with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon, or Shadow Claw, which deals with Ghost-types. If better coverage at the cost of sweeping potential is desired, both Earthquake and Shadow Claw combined will suffice.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Much like Extreme Killer, Bandceus doesn't have much reason to bother with Speed. The given EVs and nature grant Him the same combination of maximum power, very good bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95s. But Bandceus, just like Extreme Killer, has a multitude of spreads that can be used. Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. Most notably, 168 Speed EVs will outspeed positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza, while a Jolly nature with 252 Speed EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against maximum Speed Arceus as well as outspeeding Terrakion. Once the desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p>

<p>For those that prefer more power and PP, Return can be used over ExtremeSpeed. It is capable of 2HKOing Lugia after Stealth Rock, but the loss of priority hinders His revenge killing capabilities, His sweeping potential, and His Extreme Killer disguise. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its chance of 2HKOing physically defensive Giratina-O after Stealth Rock, but loses utility against Ghost Arceus and Bronzong. Likewise, Punishment can be used for its utility against Calm Mind users such as Ghost Arceus, Giratina-O, and Latias, but is rather dependent on the opponent's boosts. For those seeking improved performance against Bronzong and Ferrothorn as well as the cancellation of screens, Brick Break can be used over Earthquake, though is otherwise much weaker in general.</p>

<p>When running Bandceus, one must be very careful to avoid running an inferior Extreme Killer. He has much less sweeping potential, so in order to justify His usage over Extreme Killer, it is critical that His lure and revenge killing capabilities are taken advantage of. As such, it is mandatory that He is paired up with offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of Extreme Killer's crippled checks. Good examples range from Blaziken to Ho-Oh and Groudon to Rayquaza. Regarding Arceus Himself, it is important to patch up any moveslot shortcomings. For example, should He be running Earthquake as His sole coverage move, some way of dealing with Giratina-O is essential. Of course, carrying teammates that specifically deal with His checks and counters is a very wise choice. For example, Latias deals with Fighting Arceus, while Giratina or Giratina-O have an immunity to His only weakness and can spinblock.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>With His extraordinary movepool and His second to none stats, Arceus can fill almost any role. He could run a Calm Mind or Work Up set to utilize His excellent stats. He could run a Perish trapping set with Perish Song and Whirlpool. He could run a dual screens set in combination with Light Clay. He could run a Choice Specs set, a specially inclined version of the Choice Band set. Or He could run a Swords Dance Last Resort set to obliterate anything that is not a Ghost-type. For all intents and purposes, the choice is entirely up to you.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, due to Species Clause, only a single Arceus is allowed on a team at a time. As such, the opportunity cost of running such sets will be high. Indeed, these sets are unorthodox for a reason: the Calm Mind and Work Up sets have horrible STAB coverage in comparison to other Arceus formes; Perish trapping is extremely unreliable in Ubers; dual screens is best left to other Pokemon; the Choice Specs set lacks power plus utility; and the Last Resort set requires a considerable amount of support. That being said, if these sets are of particular interest, then feel free to use them.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Should you see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting your answers to Him become compromised. While there is no true counter to Extreme Killer outside of Unaware Quagsire, there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia. All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death should they be healthy or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item, albeit in circumstantial situations. Toxic Skarmory falls to non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts and has to be wary of last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks. Faster, boosted, Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are problematic should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a boosted Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and + Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock. All of them must also watch out for the rare Bandceus that can Trick a crippling Choice Band.</p>

<p>Rather than pseudo-countering Extreme Killer, it is easier to keep Him in check using multiple Pokemon through concerted means. For example, although Choice Scarf Terrakion cannot switch into Earthquake, it can easily survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and revenge kill with Close Combat. However, should Arceus manage to survive, a combination check can be used to finish Him off. Offensive Ghost Arceus is an excellent example, as His immunity to ExtremeSpeed allows Him to revenge kill weakened Extreme Killer. With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Thanks to priority Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play, Sableye is an excellent check. However, it will lose to sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat or Lum Berry Earthquake variants after Stealth Rock. Support Ghost Arceus can be used similarly to Wallceus, but the lack of Leftovers, a strong attacking move, and His weakness to Shadow Force and Shadow Claw makes Him the lesser check. Physically defensive Groudon and Hippowdon are very effective phazers, but can be worn down. Rock and Steel Arceus can also use a support set like Ghost Arceus, but the weakness to Earthquake and Brick Break is quite unfortunate. Likewise, Fighting Arceus favors an approach similar to Terrakion, but obtains reliable recovery and bulk at the cost of power and the resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Thankfully, Arceus formes that carry Plates are very effective against Bandceus, though they dislike taking super effective attacks.</p>

<p>Although it loses to Brick Break and non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts, a physically defensive Bronzong can stall many variants. Along the same lines as Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, other revenge killers can include Choice Scarf users such as Dialga and Heatran or Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Omastar. However, they are generally less effective due to their weather dependency or lack of power. A physically defensive Giratina-O variant can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage or possibly OHKO with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but is still able to cripple Him. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn is an annoyance with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but it will almost always result in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can truly stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>

<p>It should be noted that as Wallceus is more inclined to defeating answers with attrition, He necessitates a very different response than that of Extreme Killer. Thanks to STAB Fighting-type attacks and Recover, Fighting Arceus is Wallceus's best counter. Fire Arceus is similar and has an immunity to burn, but lacks Fighting Arceus's consistent damage. Despite its vulnerability to attrition and lack of reliable recovery, stallbreaker Heatran shuts down any Wallceus that lacks the obscure Earthquake thanks to Taunt and Toxic.</p>

<p>Any other answer to Wallceus is either easily worn down, can be phazed before significant damage is done, or is vulnerable to Return. Magic Bounce Xatu can switch into any move besides Return after Stealth Rock or Ice Beam and proceed to completely wall Arceus. Heracross can take advantage of a possible Attack boost through Guts, allowing it to pulverize Him with Close Combat. Reshiram and Victini roast Arceus with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Blaziken smashes Him with Hi Jump Kick or sun-boosted Flare Blitz, but has to be mindful of Reflect. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W are particularly threatening due to Wallceus's lack of specialization against special attackers. Should the weather be sun, Ho-Oh can switch into any move but Return after Stealth Rock and proceed to deal considerable damage with Sacred Fire. However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost, though the possible burn is an annoyance. Support Pokemon that can inflict detrimental status effects like Toxic poison, preferably with a method of alleviating status, can be quite effective against Wallceus. However, they are significantly less viable against Refresh variants.</p>


GP Approved 2/2

This was good enough to warrant just stamping it for 2/2.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
#47
This is a bit late (and possibly not something i should be doing in the first place), but I wanted to post a critique of the overview. I really feel that it has potential, despite my dislike of it, and it just needs some help and a lot less words.

I usually say 'feel free to ignore this if you like' on stuff of this nature, but if you disagree, i'd like a concrete explanation as to why, that doesn't involve 'because tehy sux' either.

[OVERVIEW]

<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in awe and wondrous presentiment at what is conceivably the best Pokemon in the entire game.

Why do we need the words 'wondrous presentiment'? This isn't a phrase that works grammatically or exists in the English language. It also takes away from the purity of this sentence, which detracts from the impact, although it's not so pronounced here.

His stats are unrivaled;. His versatility is unmatched. His impact remains unquestionable.

This one is more questionable, although my change is still gramatically correct, while giving the words far more impact than before. But, if you keep it that way, for the love of god, at least make it all semi-colons or periods. Either is better than having one semi-colon and one period.


As ordained at the shaping of the universe, His purest forme is somewhat deficient in defensive synergy.

This is good.

A lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks is tempered with a solen immunity to Ghost-type attacks.

So far, you've said only one bad thing about Arceus, and you're trying to say good things. Cutting the word lone out of there is small, but 'lone immunity' is more negative, when you seem to be trying to hype up Arceus' awesomeness. Even though it means the same thing to say 'a', it doesn't scream 'arceus has only one immunity'.

But whether wiping His many creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer or standing as their resolute guardian as Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds.

Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>

The last part really detracts from the overall impact of the entire overview. Ending it with 'the consequences shall be severe and merciless' is a strong finish. And else just has no reason to be there, although keep that if you like.


Overall, I feel that you have a really strong overview with a lot of punch, and some unnecessary breaks in the action that detract from its purity and impact, which really hurt it. These changes aren't big, but they really streamline it.
 
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