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Are unorthodox items viable?

Lee said:
Garchomp is a fantastic example of why this kind of thinking should be encouraged. For the first year of DP play, Yache Berry wasn't even listed in the analysis and it wasn't until early 2008 that it even made its way into Other Options. Eventually it caught on and as we all know, YacheChomp was the set that sealed Garchomp's banishment to Uber. It makes you wonder if perhaps there's another Pokemon out there just waiting for people to give him that specific 'unorthodox' item to push him to the next level.
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Yeah the whole Chain Chomp and subsequent YacheChomp discovery was pretty interesting to watch fold out. One of my favourite suprise sets would be Donut's SubRev Yanma.

KnightoftheWind said:
Bullet Punch boosted by the plate is about as powerful as if Scizor were Banded, allowing you to maintain an illusion. Occa Berry and Shed Shell on Scizor may also be viable.
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There is where the problem lies IMO, the boost of the Plate just isn't comparable to a Choice Band. CBScizor works because it hits hard and ideally you don't want to sacrifice that.

Marzbar said:
Lum Berries are great on Bulky Waters and other tanky pokemon.

People LOVE to use Toxic on Bulky pokemon. And unless that pokemon has Rest, Lum Berry is a great choice.
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The one problem with this strat is that they will just use Toxic again, so unless you are setting its kinda pointless. I do see the point on sweepers that people will usually try to status though.
 
Rad3n said:
It's funny to see the ShucaLuc set as the first example. I've been running Focus Sash SD Lucario (with Rapid Spin support), and it's won me many games. It works really well because whether or not you hold a Life Orb isn't apparent anyway (unlike switching Passho Steelix in on SR, or into a weak attack. The lack of Lefties might set off an experienced player). Obviously Focus Sash is ruined by priority, but it does stop a larger range of counters than one specific berry.
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Late DP and early Platinum I ran that until people suggested LO.
 
I run a chople berry scizor specifically for killing blissey (without having to use ttar's sandstream...or I'd rather use him sigh...). It's kinda worse at everything else it does, but at least blissey's no longer a problem haha. And a couple celebi too lol.
 
TSPhoenix said:
The one problem with this strat is that they will just use Toxic again, so unless you are setting its kinda pointless. I do see the point on sweepers that people will usually try to status though.
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Good point. But let me give you an example.

Person A is running an Anti-Lead Arcanine.
Person B's lead is a Scizor.
Person A predicts the likely switch into a Milotic and uses Toxic.
Person B switches in Milotic. Lum Berry cures the Toxic.
Person A has to switch or lose Arcanine and has achieved nothing.
 
akarias said:
I run a chople berry scizor specifically for killing blissey (without having to use ttar's sandstream...or I'd rather use him sigh...). It's kinda worse at everything else it does, but at least blissey's no longer a problem haha. And a couple celebi too lol.
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Chople Scizor for killing Blissey? Don't you mean...Chople Blissey for..(?)..no, that wouldn't work. No sorry, I really am confused by what you mean here.
 
Oh right sorry lol got my occa scizor and chople heatran mixed up. Occa scizor easily takes flamethrower from blissey and can bluff CB obviously.

Chople heatran retains some of its revenge killing power (for infernape and non-SD'd luc) while being able to set up SR or switching to explode. This is mainly if you have a lot of levitators.
 
akarias said:
I run a chople berry scizor specifically for killing blissey (without having to use ttar's sandstream...or I'd rather use him sigh...). It's kinda worse at everything else it does, but at least blissey's no longer a problem haha. And a couple celebi too lol.
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I think he wants to survive Sesimic Tosses, however, if I remember correctly, Type resistant berries do not have any effect on Seismic Toss.
 
These items really come in handy at times, as they allow an easy removal of a poké by the very one it should counter via some surprise element of any kind (Sash, SE Berries) and dismantle the opponent team, opening up some sweep possibilities.
NP Doom, for example, can make use of a Passho Berry to get an extra NP against Milotic and possibly kill it (if it gets one NP on the switch and one when Milotic is in), opening a sweep for pokés like Blaziken, Feraligatr and the list goes on.
It's worth noting that all of that is pretty much situational though, as a Passho is not stopping Hitmontop's Mach Punch from murdering Houndoom, but it's worth a try.
As a side note: don't you mean Impish Hippowdon?
 
Bluewind said:
These items really come in handy at times, as they allow an easy removal of a poké by the very one it should counter via some surprise element of any kind (Sash, SE Berries) and dismantle the opponent team, opening up some sweep possibilities.
NP Doom, for example, can make use of a Passho Berry to get an extra NP against Milotic and possibly kill it ( If it gets one NP on the switch and one when Milotic is in).
It's worth noting that all of that is pretty much situational though, as a Passho is not stopping Hitmontop's Mach Punch from murdering Houndoom, but it's worth a try.
As a side note: don't you mean Impish Hippowdon?
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I haven't experimented with Fire-types + Passho Berry...that could maybe be fun on Infernape (vs Vaporeon, Gyarados, and so on). I'm just theorymonning here.

And yes that's a mistake (the damage calc is with Impish).
 
If Gyarados is a concern, wouldn't using HP Electric be simpler?

Against Vaporeon:

256 Atk vs 160 Def & 293 HP (95 Base Power): 163 - 193 (55.63% - 65.87%) is Vaporeon's Surf against a Naive Mixape after a Passho Berry, so a 2HKO is guaranteed.

614 Atk vs 226 Def & 464 HP (60 Base Power): 234 - 276 (50.43% - 59.48%)
After a Nasty Plot, a 2HKO from Grass Knot is also guaranteed against a 252/0 Vaporeon.

So technically, you could beat Vaporeon switch-ins. However, I would consider it inefficient, and prefer a Swords Dance Infernape with Close Combat, Thunderpunch, and a Life Orb as a lure.

614 Atk vs 240 Def & 464 HP (120 Base Power): 427 - 504 (92.03% - 108.62%), A +2 LO CC guarantees a OHKO after Stealth Rock

But then again, SDApe loses badly to Hippowdon and Swampert. Pick your poison, I guess.
 
MixApe and SDApe arguably require different support, though, and function differently to an extent. Also on MixApe, if you don't have Grass Knot, you also have more trouble vs Suicune, Swampert, etc, where HP Electric may not pull the KOes (obviously not on Swampert).
 
Bluewind said:
These items really come in handy at times, as they allow an easy removal of a poké by the very one it should counter via some surprise element of any kind (Sash, SE Berries) and dismantle the opponent team, opening up some sweep possibilities.
NP Doom, for example, can make use of a Passho Berry to get an extra NP against Milotic and possibly kill it (if it gets one NP on the switch and one when Milotic is in), opening a sweep for pokés like Blaziken, Feraligatr and the list goes on.
It's worth noting that all of that is pretty much situational though, as a Passho is not stopping Hitmontop's Mach Punch from murdering Houndoom, but it's worth a try.
As a side note: don't you mean Impish Hippowdon?
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I don't even think a +4 Dark Pulse OHKO's a 252/0 Milotic. I tried a Chople Berry Houndoom and it did ok because Hitmontop is so fucking annoying. It worked decently but nothing spectacular. I've been tempted to try a Colbur Berry Missy as some people use Absol/Honchkrow as their only check against her.
 
twash said:
MixApe and SDApe arguably require different support, though, and function differently to an extent. Also on MixApe, if you don't have Grass Knot, you also have more trouble vs Suicune, Swampert, etc, where HP Electric may not pull the KOes (obviously not on Swampert).
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All true, but I suppose that's the tradeoff you make with an unorthodox item or move: diminished overall effectiveness in exchange for the ability to defeat or guard against specific threats. A Life Orb Tyranitar will always sweep better than a BabiriTar. Still, the opponent, upon seeing a Mixape, has little knowledge of the exact set unless he has played you before, meaning that Tentacruel could easily end up as calamari, or the incoming Hippowdon after that unfortunate switch-in could be 2HKOed by a +2 LO CC (lol, I'm assuming the other guy has Obistall. If the other guy is using Gyarados as his Infernape counter, though that is risky because a +2 LO GK is a OHKO after SR, SDApe is going to take it in the ass without Stone Edge or Thunderpunch).
 
Thund91 said:
I don't even think a +4 Dark Pulse OHKO's a 252/0 Milotic. I tried a Chople Berry Houndoom and it did ok because Hitmontop is so fucking annoying. It worked decently but nothing spectacular. I've been tempted to try a Colbur Berry Missy as some people use Absol/Honchkrow as their only check against her.
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You can run Modest nature and HP Grass to do more damage (and have a 58.97% chance of KOing it), and if Milotic has been previously damaged, which is likely, the job is made easier. Even if it doesn't kill Milotic, it'll rip a good amount of its HP, making it easy to be revenged and opening a sweep for other pokés, which would be the primary objective.
 
forgive me, but what about something like

Houndoom @ Passho Berry
Timid

Nasty Plot
Sunny Day
SolarBeam
Fire Blast

Not sure on evs, but if bulky waters are your biggest issue, you NP or Sunny Day on the switch, then NP on the second switch, because of the ensuing mind games...do they risk staying in and eating a one turn SB with their bulky water, or do they risk something else getting a NP, Sunny Day boosted Fire Blast?
 
I used to use Lum Berry on Magneton in UU (before it was actually UU in terms of usage :)), so that I could not worry about Thunderwave from Registeel so much. It also helped with things like Sleep Powder from Venusaur, which was nice.
 
Urza said:
forgive me, but what about something like

Houndoom @ Passho Berry
Timid

Nasty Plot
Sunny Day
SolarBeam
Fire Blast

Not sure on evs, but if bulky waters are your biggest issue, you NP or Sunny Day on the switch, then NP on the second switch, because of the ensuing mind games...do they risk staying in and eating a one turn SB with their bulky water, or do they risk something else getting a NP, Sunny Day boosted Fire Blast?
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Yes, this is undoubtedly more efficient in killing water pokés, but the problems are: you'll have almost no turns under sun, as you'll be using a good part of them setting up, Sun already weakens water type attacks, making it unecessary to even use a berry, Houndoom won't be able to do much outside killing Grass and Water types, meaning that all the setup done will just go to waste in the face of a fire type or even in the face of a second water type if sun has already faded and the effects of sun might always backfire.
Besides that the surprise element is kinda crushed, as a player's reaction will vary depending on the situation he's into, and noticing his water type will die once sun is up or once there's a +4 Houndoom ready to roll is very different
 
still, could be a set up for something else. pinch berries are probably best used on something that has a few viable counters against most given teams...i'd guess that most teams have a few answers to houndoom. this should take out some of those counters so that something with similar coverage and counters, such as arcanine, can then sweep.
 
But then you have to wait for the perfect moment to bring Houndoom out, and the odds are that you will need Houndoom to do something else like killing an Espeon or a Rotom, something that you'll need another pokémon to cover, using another slot that could be covered by the hellhound and making the team more succetible to being swept by pokes that could be covered by that same slot.
 
Well a Modest Houndoom with Fire Blast, Dark Pulse and Beat Up holding a Passho Berry can sometimes 6-0 an UU stall team under the right circumstances. But even then you may have to rely on the surprise factor or occasional flinch to pull it off, and you end up performing much less well against even slightly aggressive teams.

That's what I hate most about Resist Berry sweepers, far too specific. The item slot is a valuable asset for any Pokemon and you want it to have the most widespread impact possible. A similar case was when I was using a RindoCoat Milotic to lure Shaymin back in the day. If it works it's great, but when it doesn't the lack of recovery seems to make a difference more often than you'd expect. Relying on your opponent's play to make your item worthwhile is a dangerous game indeed.
 
You definitely need to be smart about using unorthodox sets and items in order to get them to work, not only in terms of teambuilding, but in terms of ingame planning as well. A great example of this is Expert Belt Jirachi. Many players throw it in on Blissey and assume their opponent will switch in Skarmory (for the example's sake, let's assume that it has Thunderbolt), meaning that once Skarmory is in, the attacker can dispatch it with Thunderbolt. What they don't rely on is the defender picking up on the fact that since the enemy hasn't shown any wallbreakers, something funky might be up with Jirachi. So to their dismay, the defender throws in Swampert/Hippowdon and utterly walls the star. To be smart about this, the attacker throwing in a Mixmence first to make it appear as if Jirachi is some kind of revenge killer rather than a wallbreaker. Or the attacker could switch out after the opponent switches to Hippo, making the Jirachi look Choiced. Next time around, the defender may be more inclined to switch in Skarmory to try to pull off that extra layer or Spikes.

Just an example from my experience. I haven't used Type-resist berries extensively (aka, outside stuff like Shucatran) in the past, but pretending to be Choiced might help there too. It's one of the reasons Garchomp worked so well, because it tended to be Choiced so often that people were never sure what they were facing upon Garchomp's entry.

Oh yeah, 600 posts. More than halfway to my 1k...
 
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