Articuno

[Green Mage]

OHKO moves aren't banned because of the environment, they are banned because they allow the user to win battles on luck alone. Pokemon's oldest and most glaring inherent flaw is hax; the amount of hax in a game is inversely proportional to that game's competitive quality. "Competitive pokemon" is already enough of an oxymoron without double team and OHKO present, especially with no guard dudes running around.

Jirachi's flinch chance isn't remotely comparable to a move that kills your guy in one hit. Jirachi is easily checked. The only thing you can do against Sheer Cold is pray that it misses, which is the exact opposite of what you should be doing in any competitive environment.

 

[Wafflez]

Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch were never used on Pokemon due to their crappy accuracy, despite how strong the actual attacks were either..

Machamp would like to have a long talk with you.=P.
While i do agree that Ohk0 moves dont even deserve a fucking consideration i do somewhat feel that Evasion should be given a chance.I mean if you'r not going to ban Jirachi then you probably dont mind hax.Besides we never had any trouble with Sand veil and stuff other than Garchomp but thats just Garchomp....

 

[Wynought]

Statistically, a luck-based strategy will never outperform more solid ones.

Sand Veil Cacturne says hi.

Seriously. Luck-based strategies are known for being overall annoying and picking up an advantage over more "solid" ones. Take ParaFlinch teams for one, there is no way to counter that without you yourself being lucky, bar Own Tempo and Inner Focus Pokémon, but then again they wouldn't like being the other side of the ParaFlinch.

 

[Green Mage]

You can't remove the luck component from battles no matter how hard you try.

We aren't ever going to remove crime either. Does that mean we should abandon the police force? The object isn't perfection, but trying to make the best game possible.

Statistically, a luck-based strategy will never outperform more solid ones.

Yes, actually, it will. It happens all the time, regardless of whether it was a purposeful strategy or not. Players lose tournament finals even though they outplayed their opponent. Increasing the chances of that happening isn't good for anyone. And for future reference, "statistically" and "never" are words that don't work well together.

The stigma against OHKO and evasion moves is mainly caused by those people who can't stand the idea of having a weakness in their team, which is an absurd concept since pokemon is a rock/paper/scissor based game regardless.

Pretty bold statement you're making. Actually, the stigma is caused by hax being the lamest thing about pokemon, and noone wanting to deal with it unless it's absolutely necessary (critical hits, move accuracy, etc).

 

[Xaif]

The simple reason I think 1HKO moves should be viable is down to the fact of who would even use them without the aid of a move like Mind Reader?

Of the 4 moves available, there are a lot of checks to them too.

Horn Drill and Guillotine are ineffective on Ghosts and Fissure misses Flyers and Levitators. So only Sheer Cold is a guaranteed KO on whatever it hits, of which only 7 fully evolved Pokemon can learn. Some being pretty obsolete like Dewgong and Glalie.

Then there's the Sturdy Pokemon, an ability a few common Pokemon possess: Magnezone, Forretress and Skarmory, among others.

All in all, there're plenty checks for the moves and it's far from guaranteed to work to begin with. Luck is a factor in all Pokemon matches, you could continually freeze your oppenent, or continually flinch etc. To effectively use 1HKO moves it does take skill. Firing them off willy nilly will result in 6 KOs at some point, but bearing in mind that has a 0.07% chance of happening, it's hardly a major concern.

Destiny Bond is a psuedo 1HKO move and it's allowed...

EDIT: Do 1HKO moves bypass subs?

 

[UltraStorm]

Statistically, a luck-based strategy will never outperform more solid ones.

Of course, a strategy is almost certain not to beat better strategies when the number of games approaches infinity. However, that always applies, not just for moves with low accuracy. And usually, the optimal strategies in pokemon require using moves without perfect accuracy, so solid strategies aren't void of luck themselves.

Even so, we don't in practice play an infinite number of games, so reducing the effect of luck emphasizes skill, which is beneficial. But if OHKO moves have less effect on the metagame than other inaccurate moves, it doesn't seem necessary to ban them while considering other inaccurate moves legal.

 

[MarsVolta]

First of all, about ohkos, as someone pointed out, most of them belong to shitty pokemon and have targets who are immune, and sheer cold users can be blocked by pokemon with Sturdy. Sturdy pokes are actually pokes that are already competitively viable such as Skarmory and Forretress, where as ohko move pokemon are not, so you would be using them only for the ohkos, adding a huge amount of predictability.

That being said, I think ohko moves should be unbanned, were it not for their best user, one pokemon we all forgot: SUICUNE!!

The event Suicune from the Zoroark movie gets Sheer Cold and is actually viable enough and bulky enough to spam it regardless of mind reader. Surf can hit all the sturdy pokemon pretty hard, and when you think about it, what pokemon can actually ohko Suicune? None of the sturdy pokemon can stand up against Suicune, including Magnezone, who has to run something like Choice Specs to beat it and also has to drop his steel trapping ability, basically making it a lot less useful.

In my opinion, were it not for Suicune, ohko moves would be fairly balanced if unbanned, actually probably no one would use them cuz no one would like to depend on a 30% chance and they would probably just be filler moves on something with a small moveset like Rapidash.

 

[Gabe]

I agree with those that say OHKO moves should be unbanned. One, it adds viability to pokemon such as Articuno. Two, it actually gives use to pokemon with sturdy.

 

[Firestorm]

Hey guys, this is a discussion on Articuno, not OHKO moves. If you'd like to discuss the usefulness of Sheer Cold on Articuno, you are definitely free to do so, but please don't debate the legality of the move.

I'm not sold on the idea of Mind Reader + Sheer Cold myself. As mentioned, you're using two moveslots for what is essentially a phaze. They will always switch out. You're looking at either 8PP for a 30% KO on the switchin of their choice (0% if it's Sturdy) or faking them out and doing another move on the switchin instead.

 

[M BLADE]

Well, it's still one of the best options for Articuno.
It's that, or Sub Roost IMO. Anything else just sucks (Ice typing is that bad, yes).
At least it's Dream World ability can help you into this (though Pressure is still viable)

Hell, it would be much better if it got some kind of boosting move (any: even physical ones). Calm Mind would turn Articuno into a "bird" (because "beast" is not the right word)...
Oh well. Gotta abuse MindCold combo or Sub Roost. Which at least to me are the b-wait, i said that already.

Oh yeah, there's the novelty LO attacker too... which can abuse Blizzard and Snow Cloak, much like Glaceon.

 

[breh]

Well... Articuno got Ice Breath I guess, lol

In any case, the poor little arctic bird got nothing much. It's not all that hard to expect though, as it's pretty hard to ameliorate the problems with meh speed and meh SpA and terrible defensive typing without giving it a movepool that's nonsensical.

Substall remains its best set IMO (Stalling out Stone edge/Head Smash is effing hilarious in the lower tiers) and I guess Sheer Cold mind reader has gained viablity. One problem is, articuno's opponents can still switch...

WHY DID THEY GIVE SHADOW TAG TO GOCHIRIZERU AND NOT TO ARTICUNO? :(

 

[Gabe]

Hey guys, this is a discussion on Articuno, not OHKO moves. If you'd like to discuss the usefulness of Sheer Cold on Articuno, you are definitely free to do so, but please don't debate the legality of the move.

I'm not sold on the idea of Mind Reader + Sheer Cold myself. As mentioned, you're using two moveslots for what is essentially a phaze. They will always switch out. You're looking at either 8PP for a 30% KO on the switchin of their choice (0% if it's Sturdy) or faking them out and doing another move on the switchin instead.

........Good point. There goes that set.

 

[Xaif]

Mind Reader does effectively force the switch unless the opponent wishes for their Pokemon to die. However this has huge potential with U-Turn does it not? On the turn your opponent switches due to Mind Reader you use U-Turn, whatever your opponent has brought in you can instantly send out a counter, or a Pokemon that can setup.

Furthermore Sheer Cold is still an option as the second time you use Mind Reader your opponent will know that a U-Turn could be coming again and try to out smart you by staying in. Good prediction would be required to get a result, but what a result it would be.

A moveset like this seems viable:

Mind Reader
Sheer Cold
U-Turn
Ice Beam / Blizzard

 

[Onslaught]

I used Mind Reader/Sheer Cold Articuno as my lead for about 20 matches today on random in-game battles. Since random match format only uses 3 guys, Articuno is a lot more useful due to a) nobody bothers setting up Stealth Rocks and b) defensive guys seem beter (IMO) since opposing teams have less attacks and thus are less likely to have something that hits SE. On the flipside, since Mind Reader forces switches like crazy you'd REALLY like some Stealth Rocks of your own, which just isn't viable.

That being said, with proper teammates surrounding him he was causing all kinds of havoc for the opposing teams. I don't know if it was because it was in-game so people didn't have optimal IVs, but Articuno can wall Gengar all day long if it doesn't have a Life Orb. Pressure against people who can't do more than 50% vs you is just so good, I made a lot of people quit just from Substitute/Roost vs. teams with ineffective type coverage.

Most of the time I would just Substitute after the Mind Reader and then Roost underneath the sub. If I was desperate or knew they had weak moves left, I would fire off Sheer Colds on the switch.

Overall the Mind Reader/Sheer Cold set (with Substitute/Roost) seems extremely useful, and it would only get better with Rocks/Spikes up to benefit even more from your forced switches. However, take this all with a grain of salt since it was in game random battle format...

 

[min min]

Stealth Rock has been said to be a lot less common this Gen, so Articuno might have some hope...but crappy weaknesses say hi, along with the fact that Stealth Rock is, as always has been, practically everywhere, and those who don't use it are simply fooling themselves into thinking nobody uses it anymore.

Articuno is crap, as is Flareon and Luvdisc.

 

[cHAncEman1292]

I'm actually kind of angry that Articuno didn't receive Snow Warning as its DW ability. I mean really...Game Freak...what's wrong with you...you have a giant ice bird that is "cloaked in snow flurries" and it doesn't have the ability to reflect that. I would extend my agreement to a Drought Moltres and a Drizzle Zapdos or Sandstorm/ Sand Strength/Sand Throw Groudon....but this is an Articuno thread.

 

[noob3]

HAX MAX
Articuno
@Brightpowder
Nature/Evs
Sub
Roost
Mindreader
Sheer Cold

oh yeah, use mind reader and sub when they switch. proceed to do whatever you want, play the random number game and see if your random sheer colds hit. Missing will not matter as much as your opponents moves (Fire Blast, Stone Edge) will have nearly as low accuracy as Sheer Cold! Boggle your opponents minds! Bring your good luck charms! Prepare yourself for a barrage of smacktalk and rage quits! Pray they don't have a Sturdy user!

 

[Murkglow]

HAX MAX
Articuno
@Brightpowder
Nature/Evs
Sub
Roost
Mindreader
Sheer Cold

oh yeah, use mind reader and sub when they switch. proceed to do whatever you want, play the random number game and see if your random sheer colds hit. Missing will not matter as much as your opponents moves (Fire Blast, Stone Edge) will have nearly as low accuracy as Sheer Cold! Boggle your opponents minds! Bring your good luck charms! Prepare yourself for a barrage of smacktalk and rage quits! Pray they don't have a Sturdy user!

Indeed, it's walled entirely by a single Sturdy poke (or just them switching in something that can outspeed and ohko Articuno if you don't have a Sub up or try and sub on the switch). You really need to run at least 1 attack just so you're not rendered totally moot (though Sub/Roost could be used to try and PP stall out sturdy pokes who lack good moves against Articuno)...

Anyway I feel sad again for Aticuno this gen. He really deserved something but no he'll remain NU again. Snow Cloak was not nearly a good enough ability and even if OHKO's are not banned this gen (looking in the Policey Review forum seems to indidcate the majority of PR members want them to remain banned at least to start) it still isn't likely to get Articuno much use.

 

[elchupo]

I tried messing around with Articuno a bit, and to be honest, it may not have gotten much but what it did get helps it to exploit Toxic stall so much more.

Articuno @Leftovers/ BrightPowder
Snow Cloak
EVs (I suck at these so someone else can suggest)
Timid/Careful/ Whatever

-Toxic
-Sky Drop
-Roost
-Substitute/ Ice Beam

A highly variable set that has a simple premise: poison something, stall with Sky Drop, and Roost off damage. Sky Drop + Toxic go amazing together, and Articuno has the bulk to abuse what is a pretty uncommon move in Sky Drop. Hail support makes this set so much more effective since Hail+ Toxic+ Sky Drop= huge amounts of passive damage. As well, the already shaky acc of Rock moves (Articuno's biggest and most common weakness) is hampered further more by Snow Cloak.

If you don't have Hail support, run Leftovers and Sub in the last slot, but with the added evasion afforded by Snow Cloak, Articuno becomes less susceptable to Status and said Rock type moves, so it could probably afford to use Ice Beam.

I've had a few rage quits testing this thing WITHOUT Hail, so I have no idea what damage it could do WITH Hail.

 

[Cshadow]

Someone owned me real hard with that set one time - I couldn't believe how well it worked.

It works gloriously in Hail.

 

[Jaroda]

Looking at the users of Sky Drop, Skarmory bar none looks like the best Toxic Drop user. Much better defense and typing and immunity to sandstorm and toxic itself means it could pull that off better. Zapdos loves to Toxic stall as is, so Sub/Roost/Toxic/Sky Drop/Thunderbolt seem obvious. Aerodactyl is also immune to sand and is super fast, but it's defenses aren't great.

So sure, I guess if you're running a Hail team you can pick Articuno, but Zapdos and Skarmoy look much better for this strategy in general.

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

Zapdos loves to Toxic stall as is, so Sub/Roost/Toxic/Sky Drop/Thunderbolt seem obvious.

I dunno... something seems fishy.

 

[Jaroda]

The slash means they're all options. I know I posted five moves.

 

[Jaroda]

Even with Toxic Spikes, Toxic is still a good idea for the inordinate amount of Flying types and Levitate users. Unless you're going to use Gravity or something...

 

[Emperor]

With team preview you can know whether or not it's worth it to toxic spike though which prevents you from wasting time.

I essentially see articuno as the free fall staller for hail like skarm is for ss :P

Also, I find it ironic the first post I have as Mr.Freeze is in the Articuno thread XD