Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk II

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Its_A_Random said:
By the same sense, I am yet to see any WoG ruling indicating that Telekinesis (self) is allowed. Anyone saying that self telekinesis makes sense from a flavour perspective imho, has zero idea on what telekinesis is. Telekinesis by its very nature is a supernatural ability that grants a life form the power to manipulate objects with the power of their minds by focusing on the object in question. A limitation of telekinesis, according to the wiki on superpowers, is, quote: "May be able to move only the objects that they can see." Wikipedia (who refers to telekinesis as psychokinesis) seems to agree with this. Based on this logic, the very idea of being able to lift yourself into the air with the power of your mind is impossible, since you cannot see yourself in your entirety; only parts of your body. This in turn renders any idea that you can lift yourself into the air with your mind in ASB pretty much moot. By the same logic, you could allow Pokémon to use Double-Edge or Earthquake on themselves, even though it makes no sense flavour-wise, just like using Telekinesis on yourself.

Balance wise, the fact that you cannot avoid any attack is not enough compensation for the fact that you can fuck over anyone relying on seismic moves or dig. The fact that you have to sub around it is not a good enough excuse when there is no sub class it goes into, & also the fact that the same argument can be applied to the far more splashable protect, counter, endure, or even the super broken endure + protect that some referees have been allowing for some reason. It furthermore goes against the whole principle of the move, which is to lift another Pokémon into the air either for Earthquake immunity or to ensure that your Hypnosis will hit the target.

Heck if I had things my way, self-targeting moves would be banned, or at the very least, create a white-list for them, in order to stop these whole guessing games on whether something can be self-targeted or not. But even then, I feel like that using Telekinesis on yourself has no place in ASB from a competitive, intent, & flavour standpoint. Kill it with fire.

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Also if anyone wants to object to Endure for CT: None, then do so now, or it will probably be implemented directly sooner or later.
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Technically, you could lift your feet while keeping them oriented in the same way. Also almost every fictional character has used Telekinesis for levitation.
 
I object to Telekinesis(self) being illegal. In the pokemon anime, a Gothorita (I think, might have been something else in its evolutionary line) used Telekinesis to levitate itself and float over a canyon. You could also lift a specific body part you can see in its entirety, if we trust wikipedia (the compketely reliable site that anyone can edit and has had several waves of massive vandalism) to be incapable of lifting unseen objects.

Besides, Telekinesis(self) is a Magnet Rise that makes the user get hit by all attacks with 100% accuracy. If Telekinesis(self) should be banned, then Magnet Rise is even worse and should be banned, too. Especially since most Magnet Rise users are weak to Ground while most telekinesis users aren't, so Magnet Rise users would be more likely to get hit by ground-type moves in the first place.
 
Mulan15262 said:
Besides, Telekinesis(self) is a Magnet Rise that makes the user get hit by all attacks with 100% accuracy. If Telekinesis(self) should be banned, then Magnet Rise is even worse and should be banned, too. Especially since most Magnet Rise users are weak to Ground while most telekinesis users aren't, so Magnet Rise users would be more likely to get hit by ground-type moves in the first place.
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We're not discussing Telekinesis Self because it's broken but because it's not possible in-game yet is allowed in here

And if we're using Wikipedia and the like then let mi reference you to Tv Tropes, whose page image on telekinesis pretty much illustrates that vision is not necessary to lift a body, actually, many telekinetic users in fiction actually close their eyes when trying hard to concentrate, how many blind people in fiction gain increased mind power due to it's condition? really I find the argument that you have to see yourself to be able to use telekinesis on you pretty weak
 
Its_A_Random said:
Heck if I had things my way, self-targeting moves would be banned, or at the very least, create a white-list for them, in order to stop these whole guessing games on whether something can be self-targeted or not.
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As much as I agree with the other users' arguments for self-targeting Telekinesis being legit, I like this idea IAR posted. The Endure + Protect combo shebang has shown that common sense (or the presence thereof, depending on how you view it) cannot always be relied upon, and if targeting yourself with moves you can't target yourself with in-game is causing this much of a stir, it is best that we get it hammered out for every single case.
 
Pokemon that can learn Telekinesis and does not have access to the Levitate Command, the Levitate Ability, are part Flying-Type, or learn Magnet Rise (I am assuming this is why people want Telekinesis (Self) and not because they want their opponent's moves to have 100% accuracy against them):
Abra lines, Audino, Aurumoth, Elgyem line, Cleffa line, Drowzee line, Espeon, Exeggcute line, Fidgit, Ralts lines, Girafarig, Psyduck line, Gothita line, Spoink line, Jynx, Meditite line, Meloetta, Mime Jr. line, Munna line, Sableye, Slowpoke lines, Spiritomb.

Arguably, a few of these pokemon could be granted access to the Levitate command due to them floating in the anime or there is no way for them to move otherwise.

For the most part, I oppose Telekinesis (Self) because a good number of Telekinesis pokemon have access to Levitate (Command), Levitate (Ability), or Magnet Rise already.
 
Its_A_Random said:
Can we seriously change Endure's CT to None already?

Endure as a combinant is something I personally will never allow irrespective of precedent, but other referees have been allowing Endure combinations... Which is bad... And a terrible/dangerous precedent imo... I am going to delve into Endure + Protect from here on in—which is apparently "allowed"—the most dangerous of those combinations from here on in. EN sink maybe, & you have to have enough EN yes, but the fact that you can almost completely cock-block an Endure Substitution directly that was supposed to act as a direct fail-safe to Endure while exposed... Not to mention, the amount of momentum it can bring to the user in the right situation...

Yeah I am probably just splurting out crap by now, but honestly, this was like the Protect + Bodyblock thing. Incredibly expensive, but when used correctly, i.e. every time it is used competently, it can easily turn the tide of a battle, & then you can spend the next turn either switching out or sacking your mon to minimise the opponent's ability to take advantage of second order in nearly every situation.

Yeah, just change Endure's CT to None already & move on imo. Why we are even allowing these to continue to run free, I do not know. Maybe I am mistaken & that they are already banned according to the description of Endure ("Enduring users may not use Combos" is kinda ambiguous), but even then, still change its CT to None for consistency's sake.
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This has been implemented without further discussion due to the lack of objections to the proposal & the amount of support it has received. This change is effective immediately in all new battles & challenges.
 
Perhaps, to allow people to sub for Telekinesis and either Levitate(command) or Magnet Rise, we could make a new sub category, Self-Leviating moves, containing any move or command that gives the user a ground-type immunity (Levitate(command), Telekinesis(self), Magnet Rise, etc.). That way, you can sub for that with only one substitution.

I also agree with giving Levitate(command) to some of those pokemon, namely Abra, Beheyem, Elgyem, Meloetta, Munna, and Musharna, because they have levitating sprites, and some of them have been levitating the anime (or maybe all, I haven't watched all of it).
 
I just use the term "Off the Ground" (OTG) to cover that particular effect whenever I ref. From what I read of all of those moves, they're not too different from each other besides how they come into effect.

I propose that we simply make all of these abilities and moves give this effect (EDIT: as a minor status condition) so that we can happily sub for it consistently:

Levitate (Ability)
Levitate (Command)
Magnet Rise (Status Move)
Telekinesis (Status Move)
Edit: Charge Stone (Signature Item that stimulates Magnet Rise) [maybe]
Edit2: Reaper Cloth (same as above)
 
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IMO, only the Levitate Command, Magnet Rise and Telekinesis should be added in that list. And... well, I should probably say something else, but have no idea. So...
 
The Ability Levitate and Charge Stone are redundant, because you already know your opponent has them. Thus there's no real chance or anything of the like to bother including them into a sub. (Only situation I can conceive of is Skill Swap with Levitate.)
 
All of these give the exact same effect, as far as I'm aware, so why shouldn't they be on that list? (Okay, I guess I can see why Charge Stone wouldn't be on there.)

The way to sub for this would simply be:
IF [OFF the Ground], ...
or
IF [OTG], ...

And okay, I can see why the first and last ones I listed wouldn't be noteworthy for an official list, but there is still a rare instance that whether the ability or item's effectiveness could be in question for some reason.

If "Off the Ground" applies to Levitate (Command), Magnet Rise and Telekinesis, then I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to at least Levitate (Ability). I can understand why it wouldn't be applied to Charge Stone because it is already obvious (you wouldn't have to sub) and is really based of a Magnet Rise (Already falls under this).
 
I never got the logic of self-targeting moves. GF very clearly specifies what moves can and cannot target the self, and for literally everything else we obey their judgment. I get that it was implemented to make Toxic Boost viable, but even that can be exploited in doubles or items matches through the (more or less useless since self-targeting exists) toxic orb and having a partner do it. If nothing else, we can state "using a self-targeting move for these purposes is allowed." I do not object from a flavor sense, but simply from the perspective of implementing the game's mechanics into ASB as smoothly as possible barring a compelling reason to the contrary.

And also, if GF wanted psychics to levitate it would give them Magnet Rise or Levitate. It did this with a few, and we gave the perfectly good levitate command to most of the rest.
 
On the weight class issue, I don't see any reason to change the BAP of the weight based moves, but I have no issue making the EN cost be [Flat number] + [User Weight Class].
 
We could do it more broad and do: IF [Pokemon] is immune to [X Type] moves then ...

This would.make it posible to use on other things like against protean, reflect type, etc...
 
I'm still in favour of a globalization of the weight based moves BAP simply back to their in game base power like any other move in ASB. The weight class interactions are only really important with Bodyblock/Take Cover and when was the last time you saw anyone use those anyway?

Actually while on the topic I'm not sure about weight based interactions in moves full stop outside of those designed to have them by Game Freak. Low Kick, Grass Knot, Heavy Slam and Heat Crash are fine but really we just overpower moves like Sky Drop, Psychic and CIrcle Throw. Weight interactions just make these more powerful and rarely actually limit a mon from using them. My Lucario is firing off 11 BAP Psychic's at the Subway's Garbodor and Sky Drop has a fine niche as a target limiting move in doubles without giving it a ridiculous 9 BAP against the average mon. Also I feel Scollipede has a way overpowered Steamroller with it's size class based BAP formula.

Baically I think there are general issues with SC and WC based BAP's across the board and we should discuss the mechanic as a whole.
 
There are a crapload of discussions going on on this thread. It is getting hard to keep up with all of them.

Maybe create discussion threads for (some of) them?
 
So the Wish EN formula is totally fucked. We have a healing move that heals 25%, so 25 HP on a given standard rank 3 mon, that delays until the next round. Conventional healing methods heal 20 HP. Conventional healing methods cost around 12 energy.

Wish costs 19 for that 100 HP mon.

6 + (Max HP / 7.5) is the current formula

Its broken as fuck. I propose a slight change that makes it at least somewhat reasonable which is the following:

6 + (Max HP / 12.5)

Given 100 HP mon now costs 14 EN to use Wish. Much more reasonable.
 
I'm actually okay with wish being a little higher in energy cost given it's ability to be passed to another mon

Also can someone please get onto individual discussion threads for the following topics. They are getting lost in this thread but have had more than enough active discussion for their own thread:

Size and Weight interactions with BAP
Self Targeted Moves
incentives to reward winning
 
I think that we could also use the standard formula, of 2+max hp/10, except change it a bit, to maybe 2+max hp/8 or 4+max hp/10 instead. I think that we should try to keep en cost formulas consistent, so I would prefer if we could use a similar formula for wish.
 
deadfox081 said:
I'm actually okay with wish being a little higher in energy cost given it's ability to be passed to another mon

Also can someone please get onto individual discussion threads for the following topics. They are getting lost in this thread but have had more than enough active discussion for their own thread:

Size and Weight interactions with BAP
Self Targeted Moves
incentives to reward winning
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14 EN...is a little higher than normal???

19 EN however, is ridiculously higher than normal

Given that 12 is normal.
 
Granted 19 is high but I equally think 14 is too low. 14 EN is Heal Pulse which only heals an ally 20 HP. I'd recommend moving it to the Moonlight/Morning Sun formula of 6 + (HP/10). It heals 25 HP base just as these moves do if it is self targeted and the ability to be passed to another mon makes it a tad more expensive just as the possibility Moonlight/Morning Sun can heal 35 make them more expensive.
 
Recently, the relationship between Double Team and Keen Eye has caused me a bit of trouble. From conversations on IRC, it's basically like Foresight without giving the ability to hit with Scrappy, but that's not too clear on the NDA.
 
In the description of the command Take Cover, it says that, if used in a combination, the pokemon will take cover for the cooldown action, in addition to the action Take Cover is used for. However, Take Cover is CT: None.

Also, Light Screen states that the user erects a paling. A paling is a fence made from pointed wooden or metal stakes, not to mention that both erect and paling are old words falling out of popularity. Can that be fixed?
 
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