Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Avnomke]

TSRD: You are making it seem MUCH easier to order first against than it is.

Its defenses are nothing special (usually 2/3) so a strong neutral hit will hurt it pretty easily

More than a strong SE hit? And what if Greninja uses a move that lets it resist your attack? What then?

and you can stop it from hitting you SE too (just use attacks that hurt it if it attacks you SE).

Such as?

Combined with its limited move pool (who said its movepool is good? Seriously? Hidden power is a must on it because it has nothing to use for alot of types and frankly it would love to have 3x hidden power because it needs the coverage)

Types with good coverage: Water, Ice, Dark, Psychic, Grass (depending on WC but still hits hard with somewhat low WC), Poison, Fighting (depending on WC), Normal (useless except for blocking ghost moves)
Types with usable coverage: Ground (DE), Flying (DE or itemless), Ghost (priority and shit BAP, but really useful for screwing you up), Rock (also has a flinch chance so there's that), Bug (granted it switches Greninja out)

Add that to Greninja being able to hit hard with Hidden Power ((6+3+2+3)*1.5=21 damage on the typical pokemon) meaning that you can add 1 of Fire, Fairy, or Steel (usually) to that list means that you're not beating it in the damage race.

Even r3 Atk is doable, with an 8 BAP move doing 13 neutral (pretty decent, when SE)

and it's hardly impossible to play around. Disable/Torment its good attacking move vs you and you're doing well, never mind mons who have alot more options.

You say that like Greninja has only one option.

It's fast but Sableye and Gengar "outspeed" it and they can all get around taunt with Magic Coat anyway.

Sub exist. Also Role Play and Protect are things that exist ordering second as well, and Taunt is in a sub ordering first half the time as well. Also, "x is balanced because y beats it" is a terrible argument. (Also Sableye doesn't even get Skill swap so lol)

Disclaimer: I am not saying we should nerf Greninja to the ground, but it's a bit ridiculous atm.

 

[TSRD]

You are making it seem MUCH easier to order first against than it is.

Perhaps, I never said it was easy. Ordering first vs Sableye or Garde isn't easy either. Any mon with tricks going second have a huge advantage. Greninja just has Protean instead of Encore, Disable, Torment, ect...

More than a strong SE hit? And what if Greninja uses a move that lets it resist your attack? What then?

Then quite likely it isn't hitting you super effectively so you're probably taking a neutral hit.

Such as?

Such as if you're weak to water you use a grass move or if you're weak to flying you use a rock move. Sure it's not ideal if they use a different move but then you're preventing them from using their ideal move too.

Types with good coverage: Water, Ice, Dark, Psychic, Grass (depending on WC but still hits hard with somewhat low WC), Poison, Fighting (depending on WC), Normal (useless except for blocking ghost moves)
Types with usable coverage: Ground (DE), Flying (DE or itemless), Ghost (priority and shit BAP, but really useful for screwing you up), Rock (also has a flinch chance so there's that), Bug (granted it switches Greninja out)

Add that to Greninja being able to hit hard with Hidden Power ((6+3+2+3)*1.5=21 damage on the typical pokemon) meaning that you can add 1 of Fire, Fairy, or Steel (usually) to that list means that you're not beating it in the damage race.

Even r3 Atk is doable, with an 8 BAP move doing 13 neutral (pretty decent, when SE)

You say that like Greninja has only one option.

The main issue here can be summed up very easily: Redundancy. You know exactly what move Greninja can use to SE you and if you have any Disabling move you can remove that entire attacking type from its arsenal since it has almost no redundancy in its moves outside Water. Its coverage is very specific and even then the moves themselves are very specific in their useability. Still, yes it does do fast damage, that's what it does. On the other hand it has only limited defense (unless it chooses to use Protean defensively but then you're not likely getting hit SE anyway) and its "tricks" outside of type changing are only average. It's good, I'm not even hinting otherwise, but not so much that nerfing is the answer IMO.

Sub exist. Also Role Play and Protect are things that exist ordering second as well, and Taunt is in a sub ordering first half the time as well. Also, "x is balanced because y beats it" is a terrible argument. (Also Sableye doesn't even get Skill swap so lol).

Subs do exist, but not for the person going second (or at least they are very limited). Unless you mean Substitue but that doesn't help it trying to Taunt through Magic Coat. And yes Roleplay and Protect exist, I'm again failing to see what that has to do with what I said... Nor Skill Swap for that matter. Lastly when did I say "x is balanced because y beats it"? I'm giving examples of other mons who are similarly powerful in their own way to show how Greninja is not unduely powerful enough to warrant nerfing.

Disclaimer: I am not saying we should nerf Greninja to the ground, but it's a bit ridiculous atm.

And I'm disagreeing that it's any more ridiculous than a half dozen other mons I could name.

 

[akela]

You don't even have to remove the boost from Protean/Color Change pokemon. Only allow the BAP boost for a pokemon's original STAB. Meaning that Greninja would get +1 BAP for Water moves and +1 BAP for Dark moves. This also solves the issue that can come up from Soaked pokemon and other moves that change typing.

 

[Avnomke]

Such as if you're weak to water you use a grass move or if you're weak to flying you use a rock move. Sure it's not ideal if they use a different move but then you're preventing them from using their ideal move too.

What if you have more than one weakness, like just about every pokemon in existence? If you're weak to water, then you're probably weak to ice (now you take 28.5 damage from Blizzard, which is probably over twice what you're doing), Grass (both an SE hit AND it's resisting your attack), or Ground (okay you should be subbing for DE anyways but still), and if you're weak to flying, then you're probably weak to Psychic, Poison, or Rock.

The main issue here can be summed up very easily: Redundancy. You know exactly what move Greninja can use to Se you and if you have any Disabling move you can remove that entire attacking type from its arsenal since it has almost no redundancy in its moves outside Water. Its coverage is very specific and even then the moves themselves are very specific in their useability. Still, yes it does do fast damage, that's what it does.

The lack of redundancy outside of Water and Ice (and Dark to an extent) is made up for by the ability to just use a different attacking type (because, you know, more than one weakness). And the fast damage isn't the whole issue, it's also the defensive shenanigans (especially in doubles).

Subs do exist, but not for the person going second (or at least they are very limited). Unless you mean Substitue but that doesn't help it trying to Taunt through Magic Coat. And yes Roleplay and Protect exist, I'm again failing to see what that has to do with what I said... Nor Skill Swap for that matter. Lastly when did I say "x is balanced because y beats it"? I'm giving examples of other mons who are similarly powerful in their own way to show how Greninja is not unduely powerful enough to warrant nerfing.

...you're not using Taunt on Magic Coat unless you're a complete idiot. Subs matter when going first, Protect and Roleplay matter when going second. Remember, the main way to beat Greninja is to take away Protean, and Taunt/Protect/Roleplay/faster DE are ways that Greninja keeps it. The idea is, if you're going first, then you make the sub: "If Skill Swap is ordered and x isn't taunted, then Taunt x" (replace Skill Swap with Gastro Acid or w/e if the opponent has that instead) and if you go second you use Taunt/Protect/Substitute/DE to stop Skill Swap from going through or Roleplay to get Protean back if you can't stop skill swap.

Also, "It's fast but Sableye and Gengar "outspeed" it and they can all get around taunt with Magic Coat anyway." How is this not "x is balanced because y beats it"??? And Skill Swap is the whole reason Taunt matters, too (or most of it, anyways), which is why Sableye is kinda irrelevant.

I've used both Gallade and Greninja quite a bit, and I can say that it's lots easier to screw you over with Greninja than Gallade, despite having less than 60% the movepool size. (Well, it's easier to do something that disrupts the opponent with Gallade, but Greninja screws you less thoroughly but while dealing tons of damage)

-------

If we do decide to nerf Protean, we could buff Color Change if we decide Kecleon doesn't need the nerf, for what it's worth. And I do think that Protean needs a nerf, at least a little.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Mat Block is my preferred target to be hit

Also TSRD I get where you're coming from but you're severely underrating just how powerful type manipulation is. You can hit almost anything you want for STAB SE, abuse their orders to reduce damage through resistances with ease and with Gren's movepool can create immunities just as easily. Give such a powerful mechanic solid stats, high speed, and a solid movepool and you've got a serious threat. I've never seen a Greninja come out of a matchup negatively, whether in Singles or in multi, and I think it's more than reasonable to try and balance it in some way.

fyi from my perspective making rare candy only boost original typing is the singles balancer, hitting mat block is the multi battle balancer

 

[Its_A_Random]

There are better ways to nerf Greninja, should we decide to nerf Greninja, than hitting Protean because of the collateral damage to Kecleon who is not "too good" to look at (You can breathe easier Birkal). Rare Candy (just RC not Everstone) and / or Mat Block come to mind here.

 

[TSRD]

Avnomke you were talking about Greninja going second and the use of Taunt which is why I mention subs not being an issue. Yes of course it can attempt to defend itself if going first but at that point Greninja's ability to abuse Protean is much weaker. And yes multiple weaknesses exist (uh why does being water weak mean you're also ice weak? Ground is the only type weak to both.) but not all of Greninja's coverage moves are equally threatening. You can certainly cover at least his best moves.

Texas Cloverleaf I am not. At no point have I said anything about how Greninja nor Protean are weak. They are not, I consider them one of the best mons/abilities in the game. I'm simply pointing out options and alternatives that allow them to be played around in some situations. I simply disagree with that power being unreasonable compared to the alternatives and frankly I need to come on strong in my denials/arguments because the urge to nerf things is much more common in gaming communities than keeping things as is and working around them. Heck you don't even need to leave this website to see ample examples of that.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Avnomke you were talking about Greninja going second and the use of Taunt which is why I mention subs not being an issue. Yes of course it can attempt to defend itself if going first but at that point Greninja's ability to abuse Protean is much weaker. And yes multiple weaknesses exist (uh why does being water weak mean you're also ice weak? Ground is the only type weak to both.) but not all of Greninja's coverage moves are equally threatening. You can certainly cover at least his best moves.

Texas Cloverleaf I am not. At no point have I said anything about how Greninja nor Protean are weak. They are not, I consider them one of the best mons/abilities in the game. I'm simply pointing out options and alternatives that allow them to be played around in some situations. I simply disagree with that power being unreasonable compared to the alternatives and frankly I need to come on strong in my denials/arguments because the urge to nerf things is much more common in gaming communities than keeping things as is and working around them. Heck you don't even need to leave this website to see ample examples of that.

You certainly haven't said that. However, you've failed to acknowledge the level of power they possess, one that at this point I feel is too strong. I also completely disagree with your suggestions that we aren't aware of counterplay or that we're too quick to nerf things. Greninja and it's related ORAS buffs have been released in the game for a full 5 months and there have been no suggestions of nerfing to this point. Everyone acknowledged that it was a powerful Pokemon, no one jumped to burn Greninja at the stake.

The suggestions to balance Greninja come after plenty of observation and careful consideration. I wouldn't have brought up the topic in irc if I hadn't had empirical evidence of Greninja consistently giving it's user a net positive in often drastic ways. Greninja IS better than any other S rank Pokemon. It is better than Sableye, it is better than Gardevoir. There is no other Pokemon in the game that can manipulate it's matchup with such ease to have an advantage and capitalize on it every single time. The now common attack boosting Greninja has rank 4/5 offenses with Rare Candy gaining STAB and a +1 boost on every single attack with STAB and coverage that gains Super effective hits on almost every Pokemon. No other Pokemon can boast that kind of offensive prowess. It has passable 100/3/2 (with negative nature) defenses that, when combined with the ability to manipulate it's typing to almost never be super effectively, ensure a high degree of survivability. To say nothing of the ability to force immunities. This, combined with an excellent control movepool in U-turn, Taunt, D/E moves, and Mat Block (this one being extremely powerful in multi battles) give it an unparalleled combination of extremely good offense and excellent defense. The icing on cake is it's blistering Speed, ensuring that in almost any matchup it can ditate the actions of the opponent without effective counterplay.

Greninja outside of it's ability is an above average Pokemon, but the ability to control one's type is such a powerful effect as to push it past the top echelon's of this game's Pokemon.

Let me reiterate, the suggestions to nerf Greninja are a matter of balance. Greninja is unbalanced in the current game, it is arguably the best Pokemon and dominating to the point where only a few top ranked Pokemon can offer some semblance of a threat. Against anything not in the immediate top rank of Pokemon it will impose it's will. The suggestions to lightly hit Rare Candy and to hit Mat Block are mild suggestions to attempt to bring Greninja in line with the top Pokemon in the game.

I encourage you to take a look at nearly any recent match a Greninja was played in and to tell me that it did not generate a significant advantage for it's team. As an example, the tournament match between me+Iar and p2x7+gold was relatively even based on matchup and perhaps uneven based on skill, and Greninja was the sole reason why they are currently in a dominant position against us.


I really do respect that you want to act as a check against rash attempts at nerfing things and some of your past objections have been absolutely valid. In this case, however, I believe you are underrating Greninja's capabilities and overstating the counterplay available against it. As stated before I encourage you to review Greninja matches to see empirical examples of it's dominance. If it can be shown that it's in fact balanced I would happily back down, and will comply with any requests of your own to see such a conclusion, I only ask that you open your mind to the possibility of it needing balance in this case in return.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

entirely unrelated I'm curious what the general populous thinks about the following

[00:25:14] <Texas> I think we need to exapnd our definition of movepools
[00:25:16] <Texas> to the following
[00:25:33] <Texas> Offensive (Physical, Special)
[00:25:35] <Texas> Support
[00:25:37] <Texas> and Control
[00:25:52] <Texas> the latter two being distinct and having entirely different objectives
[00:26:30] <Texas> support can be defined more closely as moves which enhance the abilities of the mon or it's teammates to more easily win matchups that may or may not be inherently advantageous
[00:27:13] <Texas> control can be more closely defined as moves or abilities which aim to restrict an opponents options, either by the limiting of move options or by the controlling of the matchup through switching and such inducing moves
[00:27:34] <Texas> that basically summarizes the three types of strategy you generally see in asb too
[00:27:38] <Texas> damage race
[00:27:40] <Texas> defensive and support
[00:27:43] <Texas> matchup control

 

[TSRD]

I've glanced through most of the Llama matches and I have no argument against Greninja being a dominating factor in them (I know Mowtom was quite sad he didn't bring his vs me). I can't say that I'm 100% convinced that a well played Gengar, Garde, or the like wouldn't have been able to put up similar performances without seeing them in the same spots but that's not exactly a reasonable thing to prove in any case. Finally don't worry about my mind being closed. When I debate things on forums I tend to take very hard line stances (especially if I'm playing devil's advocate or if I'm on the underrepresented side) even if my own personal opinion on a topic isn't nearly as one sided.

I haven't been convinced that Greninja is that much more powerful that other top mons but that said if something like Mat Block was to get nerfed (especially given that its main issues are all because the move was altered for ASB) I wouldn't shed a tear.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

All fair opinions to have. My proposed combination of changes are the Rare Candy alteration [(only boosting original typing) which is a reasonable suggestion regardless of Greninja's involvement] and the Mat Block nerf (which I believe is too powerful as it stands regardless of Greninja).

These suggestions do hit Greninja, but indirectly, and I think would satisfy both those who don't want to see it nerfed and those who believe it's too powerful.

 

[TSRD]

My main problem with the Rare Candy change is that it alters the symmetry between Everstone and Rare Candy (given that they're effectively the same item).
Making it so one does change with your typing and the other does not seems like an obvious place for mistakes to be made.
It seems like something like that should be uniform between the two items (which leads to issues of splash damage on Kecleon).

 

[ZhengTann]

Protect combos: I think we still have options yet to be brought up, so I'll move it to Discussion where we can dive deeper.

Nerfing Greninja: Sorry for the given title. That aside, debating the pros and cons between each presented option would be better done in its own thread, so I'll move it to Discussion too.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Responding to tsrd and note to zt, I belive it was brought up at one point to change everstone in accordance with rare candy for consistency and I don't belive there's any negative in that so thread maker it's both of the Sig items, and basically that suggested change is boost only goes to mons original typing

 

[Frosty]

Regarding Mat Block: I don't want to say i told you so but: I told you so <_<.

Regarding Protean: I honestly feel we should limit protean to say that, aside from the stab +3 damage bonus, for all intentions and purposes the user's typing is the original one. Or else I will have fun times with Greninja and the Heirloom artifacts 8). Heck, the possibility of having the bonus effects of all types (usage of rock and grass moves mostly) on a protean mon seems unnecessary.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Er frosty to be clear you're saying that Protean should still change typing but all effects and bonuses bar STAB should consider original typing yes?

seeing lots of room for misinterpretation as it is

 

[TSRD]

I would very much not be in favor of that change Frosty.
If Rare Candy gets nerfed (which I would hope it does not but that's a different topic) then at least that's something ASB created that's getting changed.
What you're listing there pretty much fundamentally alters Protean from how it exists in game.

Now assuming Texas is right and it's just STAB bonuses you're talking about:
It seems like a nerf just for the sake of nerfing (which is what I was afraid of)... or was Greninja abusing STAB abilities when I wasn't looking?
BTW the commands already say "only pokemon naturally this type" get the effect so Greninja can't use them anyway.
Bug: Can't Use.
Dark: Natural Type which your change would have him get all the time anyway.
Dragon: Can't Use.
Electric: Immune to Para. This is not an "extra" ability, it's a property of the electric typing... Not that it has electric moves really.
Fairy: Not even fairy types want this STAB.
Fighting: Does it even have these moves and would it matter if it did?
Fire: Immune to Burn. See Electric.
Flying: A whole lot of stuff that simply makes flying mostly what it is in game. See Electric.
Ghost: Stuff ghost has in game. See Electric.
Grass: A bunch of stuff it can't use. Basically the only thing it gets here is the ability to always use grass knot.
Ground: See Electric.
Ice: It can't use the command so all it gets is a small selection of immunities (to hail, freeze, and sheer cold...). See Electric.
Normal: No one remembers this boost anyway and even if they did it's only normal type moves which means it will never come up.
Poison: in game poison immunity. It also gets perfect accuracy Toxic I guess (though only if it was already poison type). Immunity to fog (matters?).
Psychic: Nothing here.
Rock: How much of the +priority can Greninja use? To my knowledge almost none of it. Again the main thing it gets is being able to use rock moves regardless of arena.
Steel: See Electric.
Water: Natural Type.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

As I said I agree to Mat Block being nerfed. Although, I have one question. Why is Greninja being nerfed? We still feel it is Rank B+ right? Imo, Unless we see a pokemon in rank S and it is still too difficult to handle / counter with other pokemon in the rank, we needn't nerf it much.

So we nerf Mat Block and see how things are, after the nerfing. Regardless though, ZhengTann mentioned that this topic would be moved to discussion. So can we please wait till the discussion thread is up?

Edit: And it is up. Thank you Zt!

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Why are you using super outdated unofficial viability rankings exactly

 

[Frosty]

Viability ranking don't get feedback enough to be up to date.

Also, I am thinking mostly on being able to use water and grass moves that require external sources. That has nothing to do with ingame because sources are also elements of ASB only. That by itself isn't a big whoop, but if you include +2 on all attacks and stab on all attacks it is unnecessary. Again, unnecessary =/= broken. Just silly.

Also, even if you nerf Rare Candy, you will still have issues with other stuff that boost STAB (I think only heirlooms and random arenas fall under that category). If you get zarator to adjust the heirlooms so it is just the original stabs, then I suppose I wouldn't have much to complain about.

Regardless, let's direct the discussion to the separated topic <_<;.

 

[akela]

Growth: The user concentrates on directing nutrients and vitamins to specific areas in its body or plant, increasing Attack and Special Attack by one (1) stage. This move locks these stages for one round unless it is used on the round's first action. If a Grass-type uses this move in intense sunlight, both stats will be boosted by two (2) stages, and Energy Cost will be increased by 2, and this move instead locks its changed stat for the round only if used on the last action of a round.

What the fuck is this witchcraft?

 

[Its_A_Random]

An outdated description with a crazy dumb flavour thing that is inconsistent from in-game... >_>

Speaking of stat boosters, anyone mind if I:

• Remove the lock descriptions from Stat Boosters since they should be defined in the handbook.
• Define Natural Stage in the handbook as a level a stat boost/drop will reset towards.
• Remove all mentions of boosts being maintained at the end of each round in the NDA and replace them with raising/lowering the Natural Stage of the Pokémon.

Because there has been confusion that has popped up every now and then with regards to how stat boosters work and Natural Stages (on IRC anyway) so by doing all these, we can hopefully end confusion and whatnot. Like this post if you agree with me doing this.

 

[Its_A_Random]

The above has now been implemented and a lot of descriptions have changed. I also removed some old outdated requirements such as Screech failing if the opponent could not hear the screech and changed Growth's +2 requirements to just be in the sunlight as opposed to being a Grass-type in the sun to match in-game.

If the new wording of things are really awkward, let me or another editor know in #capasb (Shell Smash probably comes to mind but ehhh).

Also does anyone have any comments on:

entirely unrelated I'm curious what the general populous thinks about the following

[00:25:14] <Texas> I think we need to exapnd our definition of movepools
[00:25:16] <Texas> to the following
[00:25:33] <Texas> Offensive (Physical, Special)
[00:25:35] <Texas> Support
[00:25:37] <Texas> and Control
[00:25:52] <Texas> the latter two being distinct and having entirely different objectives
[00:26:30] <Texas> support can be defined more closely as moves which enhance the abilities of the mon or it's teammates to more easily win matchups that may or may not be inherently advantageous
[00:27:13] <Texas> control can be more closely defined as moves or abilities which aim to restrict an opponents options, either by the limiting of move options or by the controlling of the matchup through switching and such inducing moves
[00:27:34] <Texas> that basically summarizes the three types of strategy you generally see in asb too
[00:27:38] <Texas> damage race
[00:27:40] <Texas> defensive and support
[00:27:43] <Texas> matchup control

Since this got buried in the Greninja discussion >_>

 

[Mowtom]

I'm not entirely sure what the point of doing that would be. If we officially call Tailwind a "support" move while Taunt is a "control" move, that's all fine and dandy, but what does it actually accomplish?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

It's not meant to "accomplish" anything, it's a thought I had about the way we look at the game insofar of how we can define it. It clarifies the language we use for the game. If you want a potential use, consider how we introduce the game to new players, giving them a clear vision of the basic strategies can hardly be a poor thing no?